Author Topic: How can I design a EMI filter for SMPS ?  (Read 1044 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline JacquesBBB

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 784
  • Country: fr
How can I design a EMI filter for SMPS ?
« on: December 28, 2017, 11:19:33 am »
Hi All,

Several time, I came across the problem of powering a  device with  a small ebay SMPS which output is affected by a high frequency
noise (500 khz  for example in )
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/bme280-power-supply-problems/

Looking around, I tried to add a  filter with two ferrite beads (HF70ACC453215 120 Ohm at 100Mhz)  and ceramic capacitors of 1uF and 10uF (see schematics).
When simulated on Proteus, it works well and reduce the high frequency level by 1000 ( see figure).

When put again in the real setting, and measure with a probe with very short leads, the result is barely a factor, even smaller.

I   have ordered ferrite beads of higher impedance to try,  but I would appreciate any advice on this topic.

What is the right way to add a filter stage to a noisy SMPS ?

Thanks
 

Offline AndyC_772

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3443
  • Country: gb
  • Professional design engineer
    • Cawte Engineering | Reliable Electronics
Re: How can I design a EMI filter for SMPS ?
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2017, 11:29:53 am »
This type of problem is all about physical layout, parasitic components, and other "real world" effects which a simulator won't show unless you explicitly model them all.

A good, clear photo of your circuit will answer a lot of questions about how it's built and why it might have a noise problem.

Offline T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13518
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: How can I design a EMI filter for SMPS ?
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2017, 12:05:30 pm »
Do you know if it is common mode or differential noise?

Did you measure it under load?  Ferrite beads saturate above say 200mA (depends widely on type).

Uhh... this thingy? http://www.electrodragon.com/product/wifi-iot-relay-board-spdt-based-esp8266/

It has no common mode filter choke.  Not only is it so noisy as to malfunction in and of itself, you're polluting the radio waves.  Who knows what emergency services may be affected by this equipment!

I suggest reporting this product to the relevant authorities (the FCC here, and whatever equivalent CE authority there).  This piece of shit shouldn't be sold or imported, it's a hazard...

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Offline JacquesBBB

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 784
  • Country: fr
Re: How can I design a EMI filter for SMPS ?
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2017, 12:24:28 pm »
A good, clear photo of your circuit will answer a lot of questions about how it's built and why it might have a noise problem.

Thanks for your reply, but I would like to know how to design a general EMI filter. Not attached to a given setting.
This problem occurs very frequently, and  my question is how to filter efficiently the high frequency component of a DC  power supply ?

I understand that the solution may differ  with the circumstances. 
Here I am speaking of very low power ;  < 100 mA;  eventually  < 10 mA .
 
 

Offline JacquesBBB

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 784
  • Country: fr
Re: How can I design a EMI filter for SMPS ?
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2017, 12:40:47 pm »
Do you know if it is common mode or differential noise?
Good question.  I will check  again both.
But this does not answer my general question ( see above)

Quote
Did you measure it under load?  Ferrite beads saturate above say 200mA (depends widely on type).
I am concern  only for  small load ( < 100 mA).  In my tests, putting  a load or not did not change the outcome.

Quote
Uhh... this thingy? http://www.electrodragon.com/product/wifi-iot-relay-board-spdt-based-esp8266/

It has no common mode filter choke.  Not only is it so noisy as to malfunction in and of itself, you're polluting the radio waves.  Who knows what emergency services may be affected by this equipment!

I suggest reporting this product to the relevant authorities (the FCC here, and whatever equivalent CE authority there).  This piece of shit shouldn't be sold or imported, it's a hazard...

I dont think it is worse than most of the wallwart PS modules.
The sonoff module (see attached) does not  seem to have either common mode chokes.

In any case, what  is the right way to design a  high frequency filter for a DC power supply ?
I have in particular concern about the values of the ferrite beads to use. Can you comment on that ?  Thanks.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13518
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: How can I design a EMI filter for SMPS ?
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2017, 01:11:59 pm »
I dont think it is worse than most of the wallwart PS modules.
The sonoff module (see attached) does not  seem to have either common mode chokes.

A bad example is still a bad example...

Quote
In any case, what  is the right way to design a  high frequency filter for a DC power supply ?
I have in particular concern about the values of the ferrite beads to use. Can you comment on that ?  Thanks.

Ferrite beads are specified by impedance, which isn't very useful except at the radio frequencies where that spec is measured (usually 100MHz).  Typically they are crummy inductors, around 0.2 to 4uH with maximum Q of maybe 5.

For a common mode choke (CMC), exactly what combination of choke and Y-caps is needed will vary, but the power supply probably has a Y-cap between primary and secondary, so that's a start.

Ideally, you'd isolate the noisy supply from the outside world, by shielding it in a can, and where the leads pass through the shield, chokes and caps are placed.  The chokes are placed on the inside, so that whatever RF voltage the power supply is generating, is dropped across the chokes.  The caps are connected to the wires at the shield, so that very little voltage is developed across them, due to the RF current in the chokes (which is Inoise = Vnoise / Zchoke).

Ideally, you'd also use individual chokes, one for each line (except ground, which can be connected directly to the shield), but you can make a practical exception where each pair of lines (mains H/N, output +/-) has a CMC.  This assumes that the differential mode noise is well filtered, which is usually the case, thanks to much larger film caps between lines (X type), and between DC +/-.  You should add such a cap after each CMC to reinforce this.

If you do use a shield proper, you don't need two CMCs -- they're in series after all, so what difference does it make?  But if you don't, there may be unbalanced noise, due to the power supply's capacitance to its surroundings.  For this reason, it will be better with two CMCs.  Whether it's actually necessary, you'd need an emissions setup to measure.  Better safe than sorry.

How much shield is needed?  Suppose you start with the supply inside a metal box.  Suppose you open a hole in one side of the box.  How much does that hurt?  Probably not much, as the shield still surrounds things, and the hole only acts as an aperture for very high frequencies that the supply doesn't generate anyway.  An aperture has a low frequency cutoff behavior, so it's still letting some through -- simply put, the internal electric field is visible through the hole (and a little bit of magnetic field).  Suppose you grow the hole so that now the shield is half missing.  Now you have a clear dipole situation, i.e., the supply is exposed and any voltage differences can radiate like a dipole antenna.  The connections also can't come out simply anywhere -- they still must be in the shield, so they can only come out through the remaining sides of the shield.  If we continue to grow the hole so that the shield shrinks to a tiny point, the wires can only come out at that point -- they must all cluster together around a common point, where the filters are.  The supply is completely exposed and can radiate whatever it does, but if you can't afford shielding to cover it, this is as good as you can get.

So the circuit and layout you are looking for, is to bring the AC mains and DC output wires together, as close as possible (dictated by clearance rules), "short" them together using capacitors (a capacitor is an RF short circuit), specifically Y1/Y2 type capacitors to the AC side, then a CMC or two, from the capacitors to the power supply.  You will also use a X1/X2 film cap from line to line (where the Y caps are), and something between DC +/- (probably ceramic or electrolytic).

On the given module, you may have to lift the PSU, and add an interposer (carved from copper clad PCB stock, say) implementing this filter circuit.  Or it may be possible to tack it on underneath the PSU, but if the base board fits in an enclosure, there won't be space for CMCs there.

The motivation for the layout is topological, so I've introduced this as a topological thought experiment (enclose the supply in a Farday cage; expand a hole in it until the shield is inverted).

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Offline floobydust

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2799
  • Country: ca
Re: How can I design a EMI filter for SMPS ?
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2017, 04:58:52 pm »
I would not advocate building a mains CM filter to save a cheap junk PSU; point-point wiring, a sloppy perfboard or PCB and it's just too dangerous especially on OP's guitar pedals.

Just bite the bullet and buy a decent PSU and toss the cheap junk PSU in the garbage. You spend $100's dollars on the rest of the gear, why save a few dollars here, to risk your life?
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf