Author Topic: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?  (Read 3428 times)

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Offline AngraMeloTopic starter

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How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« on: December 31, 2018, 02:30:55 pm »
Hey guys,

Ive been trying to learn how does RAM and SSDs work. All I get is the manufacturing process of the PCBs for the RAM sticks or Flash Drive units. I tried reading and watching videos about the history of it and all the hole-punching, magnetic and CD/DVD part of it makes sense to me and I think I have an idea of how they work.

After getting into electronics, I learned a bit about IC dies and how processors work but solid state memory is still a mystery.
I heard that there are some types like DRAM that use a capacitor that when charged up indicates a single bit being high (presence of voltage) and that its main power consumption comes from keeping those capacitors charged up given the normal leakage capacitors have.
But SSDs and RAM appear to have no batteries and will keep their data for a pretty long time (at least compared to the "common" leakage I see in capacitors when dealing with discrete components).

It is rather surprising the small amount of information out there about that given that nearly all of us use that technology almost every day.

Can someone direct me to a website about that? Or give me an explanation of what in the world is going on?
Im ready to call bullshit on all this memory thing and say that we are living in the Matrix.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2018, 02:48:38 pm »
It is rather surprising the small amount of information out there about that given that nearly all of us use that technology almost every day.
Can someone direct me to a website about that? Or give me an explanation of what in the world is going on?
Im ready to call bullshit on all this memory thing and say that we are living in the Matrix.

Is that a troll post?  |O

There are tons of detailed info available through a simple Google search about DRAM and Flash...

RAM loses contents when power is lost. Actually DRAM loses contents within seconds even when powered so has to be refreshed continuously.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 02:52:58 pm by Kilrah »
 

Offline AngraMeloTopic starter

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2018, 03:19:27 pm »
Not a troll post at all!
I read more than a dozen different websites about that and none of them said that when RAM is turned off it looses the storage memory.
Also I still cant find anything about the SSD that explains how it works.
Why would I go to such lengths to write a troll post?
 

Offline AngraMeloTopic starter

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2018, 03:25:37 pm »
Another thing,
"my" google is not the same as "your" google.
All my settings (Browser, windows, gmail accounts...) are set to USA and english to force google and Youtube to look for results in english but even me switching everything to "american" settings and using Chrome addons to prevent sites from tracking me, they still to (YT will switch my account location almost daily to Brazil) and I get a lot of results in Portuguese.

Im not a lazy douche trying to have a laugh. I spent a couple of hours to get the answers and I just could not.
On my first post I even described what Ive found.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2018, 03:38:30 pm »
Is that a troll post?  |O
That is uncalled for and unnecessarily rude.

There are tons of detailed info available through a simple Google search about DRAM and Flash...
So why don't you help him out with a few relevant links? Not everyone's abilities are the same. He may have a very slow connection, he may not know what terms to search for, there may be other reasons.

If you feel the question is not worth your time then the polite thing to do is move on. No need to be insulting.

All my posts are made with 100% recycled electrons and bare traces of grey matter.
 
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Offline Twoflower

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2018, 03:43:34 pm »
One starting point for research learning stuff might be the Wikipedia. Yes, there's no Portugese entry for FLASH nor RAM, but the english pages seem to be very detailed.

Even if your google is different than others: Directing it to English search results leads usually to Wikipedia entries if searched for technical stuff. By the way: I use startpage.com and it does that too. The tracking is easily done: Your IP address is telling a lot (including which ISP you're using). Unless you're using a VPN or other kind of tunnel that can't be switched off. But that's rather off-topic.


Edit: Added missing 'Portuguese' in the first chapter
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 03:54:02 pm by Twoflower »
 
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Offline AngraMeloTopic starter

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2018, 03:49:14 pm »
My goodness! Thank you so much!
I got completely different results using that website!

Im going to check them out.

Thanks again!
 

Offline BrianHG

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2018, 05:14:33 pm »
You haven't stated which type of RAM and which type of SSD memory.
Ok, I'll choose for you.  There are differences...
Here are the internals of a SDRAM chip:
https://youtu.be/8zhr72a6tqQ
Here are the internals of a Flash NV rams memory chips work:

« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 05:28:25 pm by BrianHG »
 
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Offline Kilrah

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2019, 07:23:39 pm »
That is uncalled for and unnecessarily rude.

There are tons of detailed info available through a simple Google search about DRAM and Flash...
So why don't you help him out with a few relevant links? Not everyone's abilities are the same. He may have a very slow connection, he may not know what terms to search for, there may be other reasons.

Really?
He didn't word his post as "hey I'm interested in this but can't find info, can you help me?" which would have been no issue, but downright "I can't find any so it must not exist and I call BS until you point me straight to it". If that's not trolling...

It might have been intended as a joke but didn't come out as one, it came out as "I can't be bothered to look it up, do it for me".
 
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Offline GeoffreyF

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2019, 09:20:10 pm »

If you feel the question is not worth your time then the polite thing to do is move on. No need to be insulting.

Perhaps there is no need to be insulting.  However the quality of questions and postings here is deteriorating.   I would love to have suggestions on non-insulting ways to discourage bullshit trollish posts.  If he is "getting into electronics" - and actually reads the spec sheets, googles for terms he did not understand - there would have been no need for his post.   He clearly did not even get far enough in his queries to learn what RAM means. 

Please propose your own methods.  Calling someone's response "insulting" is actually not exactly polite either. 
US Amateur Extra W1GCF.
 

Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2019, 02:07:05 pm »
Soldar is the new forum cop. He seems to be new to the world of online posting.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2019, 02:10:55 pm »
Soldar is the new forum cop. He seems to be new to the world of online posting.
Frankly someone's ass needs to be spanked by forum cops. I would stay silent in your place  :palm:.
 

Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2019, 02:12:17 pm »
Do you need a safe space? Or a hug? 2019 seems off to a rough start for you?
 

Offline wraper

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2019, 02:14:11 pm »
Do you need a safe space? Or a hug? 2019 seems off to a rough start for you?
No I don't and I'm against those. As for you, IMO it would be safer stay isolated from society.
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2019, 04:19:59 pm »
Another thing,
"my" google is not the same as "your" google.
All my settings (Browser, windows, gmail accounts...) are set to USA and english to force google and Youtube to look for results in english but even me switching everything to "american" settings and using Chrome addons to prevent sites from tracking me, they still to (YT will switch my account location almost daily to Brazil) and I get a lot of results in Portuguese.

Im not a lazy douche trying to have a laugh. I spent a couple of hours to get the answers and I just could not.
On my first post I even described what Ive found.

I'm not having the problem you do. If I type "How does a RAM work?", all the results are in English. I don't need any special settings. I even tried other languages. Comment fonctionne une RAM? give me all the results in French. Wie funktioniert ein RAM? gave me all German. Even Russian is no problem: Как работает RAM?

But I don't use Chrome.

As for the information you're looking for, Wikipedia is a good starting point:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_drive

The confusion you are experiencing is perhaps because DRAMs, which are Dynamic RAMs, use capacitance as a means of temporarily storing information. However, they are called Dynamic because their tiny capacitors can't retain information for a long time, so they need to be refreshed periodically (in the range of milliseconds, that is), and that requires them to be on. As soon as you turn them off, the capacitors will not retain their charge.

And SSDs can be DRAM based, which can employ batteries to maintain the refreshing going on. In fact when you put your laptop to sleep mode, that's exactly what you do: you turn everything else off, and keep the DRAM being refreshed, basically.
 
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Offline wilfred

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2019, 12:12:24 am »

The beginners section ought to be exclusively reserved for helpful replies that foster a welcoming tone for new and inexperienced people. Whether or not the information sought is readily discoverable by experienced people is irrelevant. People like to interact with people and seek out others who will make them feel welcome.  If you don't have a helpful response don't feel compelled to respond. And if you genuinely feel someone is trolling definitely don't respond. In the Beginners section the response is less welcome than the possible offence.


« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 04:15:55 am by wilfred »
 
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Offline wraper

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2019, 12:46:24 am »
Soldar is the new forum cop. He seems to be new to the world of online posting.
Frankly someone's ass needs to be spanked by forum cops. I would stay silent in your place  :palm:.
The beginners section ought to be exclusively reserved for helpful replies that foster a welcoming tone for new and inexperienced people. Whether or not the information sought is readily discoverable by experienced people is irrelevant. People like to interact with people and seek out others who will make them feel welcome.  If you don't have a helpful response don't feel compelled to respond. And if you genuinely feel someone is trolling definitely don't respond. In the Beginners section the response is less welcome than the possible offence.
Then why are you quoting my post? It was certainly against behavior that you mentioned. "Someone" I was meaning is a guy in vacuum.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2019, 04:40:47 am »
We have Brazilian users in this forum too, and they can certainly find things (one of them not long ago managed to find a component marking that I couldn't...) so your country should not be an obstacle.

As mentioned above the Wikipedia is a good start. For more in-depth, follow the references from there and to lecture slides of EE courses, and then go find datasheets and read them if you really want to know more.
 

Offline AngraMeloTopic starter

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2019, 07:07:01 am »
We have Brazilian users in this forum too, and they can certainly find things (one of them not long ago managed to find a component marking that I couldn't...) so your country should not be an obstacle.

As mentioned above the Wikipedia is a good start. For more in-depth, follow the references from there and to lecture slides of EE courses, and then go find datasheets and read them if you really want to know more.

Ive never said I cant find anything I search for. It was clear from my post I was having trouble finding information on this particular topic. Ive never created a thread or asked anything here without spending some time trying to learn it first.

Perhaps I should try to make clear what happened.
Usually, when Im searching for something as common as RAM or SSD drives, a quick google search yields the necessary information to very basically covers one's curiosity. Googling is no effort and I understand that some people might feel the way they presented here in this thread. I felt the same way on different occasions and different forums.
This time it did not.
I searched and read about the first twelve pages about it (that came on the google result). None of them gave me the answers I was looking for.
That was rather strange given the topic.
Then, I went to youtube and it lead me into a trail of how the whole process of recording data for computers developed and not actually how the insides of the RAM or SSD worked. To be 100% honest there was a video made by gentlemen with a heavy Indian accent that was very hard for me to understand so I couldnt learn much. The videos BrianHG posted here did not appear on my search (thanks for posting them, they helped a lot).
After watching 4 videos and none of them explained about the SSD or how the data actually stayed there after disconnecting I was surprise that I had spent a couple of hours with no result.
So I came to the forum.

Quote

Really?
He didn't word his post as "hey I'm interested in this but can't find info, can you help me?" which would have been no issue, but downright "I can't find any so it must not exist and I call BS until you point me straight to it". If that's not trolling...

It might have been intended as a joke but didn't come out as one, it came out as "I can't be bothered to look it up, do it for me".

Really, that is what you got from my message?
You say I didnt ask: hey I'm interested in this but can't find info, can you help me?"
This is the first line of my post: Ive been trying to learn how does RAM and SSDs work. All I get is the manufacturing process of the PCBs for the RAM sticks or Flash Drive units.
Then I say nearly exactly what you described: Can someone direct me to a website about that?

So you would rather me say: "guys, I did no research, tell me how an SSD works?"

I wrote a post with the results Ive found. Even describing what showed up that was not directly related and showing that I took the time to try to learn it.
I was truly surprised that I could not find a clear answer to that question, I wrote that in the post. This does not mean I expect any 5 minutes of googling to bring instantaneous knowledge to me. It means that something was up, either the way I was searching for it (If I knew the expression "floating gate" it would have been a 2 minute search, but I didnt and it wasnt) or some other thing.
When I said the joke at the end about living in the matrix you actually think I was serious? That is what you got from my post? That I dont believe RAM and SSDs are real?
I specifically told you I was not trolling. I went to the trouble of respectfully answering you and telling that nowhere I saw that DRAM looses its memory just after powering it down.


I'm not having the problem you do. If I type "How does a RAM work?", all the results are in English. I don't need any special settings. I even tried other languages. Comment fonctionne une RAM? give me all the results in French. Wie funktioniert ein RAM? gave me all German. Even Russian is no problem: Как работает RAM?


Let me tell you something funny happened to me some months ago:
Since moving to Brazil from the US using google became a demanding task. I switched all my settings from Chrome, Gmail, YT to USA and english in a effort to bypass the region/location filters and get results in english (which usually are more reliable than Portuguese in my experience).  Google and YT continue to change my location and manipulate the results even after I specifically set them not to. Typing "LCD" on YT results in a array of brazilian videos.
What is funny is that this did not happen when I was living in the US and visiting Brazil. My IP address is the same, my computer is the same and my settings are the same...
Now, how in the world is that done? One thing is tracking your physical location and changing results in the hopes of giving you a better experience, another is to KNOW that I dont LIVE (not where I am but where I live) in the US anymore and force the results to local ones.
This was specially horrible during a immigration crises that happened last year in the US. I would google about it, read all the relevant content and somehow everything was twisted - I know this is starting to sound like conspiracy but hold on - Some results holding specific images, graphics and numbers would just not appear. My friends would tell me "Look, this happened" and I would google that in many different ways and not get the result they were getting. Then, they would send me the link. Of course, after that, if I googled their link, it would now show up.

Also, all the propaganda and adds I receive are ALL in portuguese. For sometime I used a american VPN service and guess what? All the adds continued to be in portuguese.



 

Offline AngraMeloTopic starter

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2019, 07:22:09 am »
It is a nightmare to keep my search results in english.
Youtube auto translates some video titles to portuguese!! Why in the world would they do that if I specifically arrange my language AND location settings for the english-USA?!?!
around 50% of my Youtube searches brings videos made in Brazil that have way less views than the one on the same subject in english. I have nearly no Brazilian channels I subscribe, if anything I have way more European than Brazilians!
Everything on my computer is set to english and this shit keeps trying to translate it!
It is very strange to feel like I have to explain why I couldnt learn that from myself, I would have loved not to ask! 
Maybe there is a bunch of people trolling around this forum and making questions just to spend the valuable time of others but that is definitely not my case!

I didnt mean to bother anyone
 

Offline AngraMeloTopic starter

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2019, 07:24:06 am »
One more thing,
I didnt think of wikipedia. After searching for it, I totally forgot about wikipedia, I should have looked there.
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2019, 07:35:55 am »
One more thing,
I didnt think of wikipedia. After searching for it, I totally forgot about wikipedia, I should have looked there.

Suggesting you to bookmark that web site into your easy accessible bookmark tab at your browser, an advice from generation that used to use these thingy below  ::), whenever we need to learn/know something that was new to us.


Offline mariush

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2019, 07:47:40 am »
flash,ssd: search google for : slc mlc tlc flash nand application note appnote

The SSD Anthology: Understanding SSDs - https://www.anandtech.com/show/2738

The SSD Relapse: Understanding and Choosing the Best SSD - https://www.anandtech.com/show/2829
 
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Offline Jwillis

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2019, 12:50:06 pm »
Essentially there are two types of memory.  Volatile memory that requires a constant power source .RAM ( Random Access Memory) or DRAM (Dynamic Random Access Memory) fall into this category .  Non Volatile memory which does not require a constant power source.Flash memory and SSD fall into this category. Non Volatile memory have a finite number of writes .Quote: USB flash drives can withstand between 10,000 to 100,000 write/erase cycles, depending on the memory technology used. SSD write /erase cycles are typically 100000. 
 

Offline amyk

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Re: How does RAM and SSD work nowadays?
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2019, 08:56:49 pm »
flash,ssd: search google for : slc mlc tlc flash nand application note appnote

The SSD Anthology: Understanding SSDs - https://www.anandtech.com/show/2738

The SSD Relapse: Understanding and Choosing the Best SSD - https://www.anandtech.com/show/2829
Don't forget one of the most useful keywords, datasheet. :)
 


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