Electronics > Beginners

How fast is a beginner supposed to grow/learn/make?

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rstofer:

--- Quote from: worsthorse on December 28, 2019, 10:53:15 pm ---
 don't know if I agree with this. Well, actually I do know, I don't agree that hobbyists are mostly restricted to doing cut-and-paste copies of some engineer's design.  All you have to do is pick up a copy of Solid State Design for the Radio Amateur, Art of Electronics, or EMRFD to see that hobbyists, if willing to learn some practical theory and rules, are capable of building quite sophisticated electronic equipment.

--- End quote ---
Yes, but by that time they may still be hobbyists but they aren't 'beginners'.

--- Quote ---Why does this matter?  Because it is easy to think, as a beginner, that you have to have an engineering or software degree or a lot of maths training before you will know enough to design and build interesting stuff and that just isn't so.  Should a beginner eventually know how to work with complex numbers, understand vectors, etc? Yes, eventually and for the same reasons they will want to work their way through a book like Electronics of Radio or spend some time learning how to solder or use an oscilloscope.  But do you need a lot of finite analysis or calculus or solid state physics to design and build interesting and complex circuits? Not really, though you better know all that stuff if you are planning on building a thousand of anything.

PS - I do agree with one thing... if you are going to design stuff, you will spend a lot of time doing calculations and looking at data books, though the calculations are likely to be algebraic and the databook research of the "hmm, that looks good enough" sort.

--- End quote ---

Yup!  You can't even blink an LED without Ohm's Law to figure out the resistor value or the datasheet to find Vf and If plus the datasheet for the driver to find out what current it can provide plus a view of the graph of Vout vs Iout because, sure as shooting, Vout is going to sag with a heavy (relatively) load.  Even the easiest thing, blinking an LED, takes at least 2 datasheets and Ohm's Law to get it right.  Even then, you don't have to design for the maximum If.  Sometimes half that much is bright enough - and it saves power, and heat dissipation.

Electronics is a numbers game.  That's why we have datasheets full of them!  Every single number on the datasheet represents a corner in the safe operating area.  Things the device can do and things it can't.  All of them are important.

Sometimes even I don't agree with me but this whole topic has to revolve around the user.  How much do they want to know?  And how fast do they want to learn it?

Electro Fan:

--- Quote from: rstofer on December 28, 2019, 11:37:22 pm ---
Sometimes even I don't agree with me....
--- End quote ---
  :)

Happy New Year to EEVers everywhere.

worsthorse:

--- Quote from: rstofer on December 28, 2019, 11:37:22 pm ---
--- Quote from: worsthorse on December 28, 2019, 10:53:15 pm ---
 don't know if I agree with this. Well, actually I do know, I don't agree that hobbyists are mostly restricted to doing cut-and-paste copies of some engineer's design.  All you have to do is pick up a copy of Solid State Design for the Radio Amateur, Art of Electronics, or EMRFD to see that hobbyists, if willing to learn some practical theory and rules, are capable of building quite sophisticated electronic equipment.

--- End quote ---
Yes, but by that time they may still be hobbyists but they aren't 'beginners'.

--- Quote ---Why does this matter?  Because it is easy to think, as a beginner, that you have to have an engineering or software degree or a lot of maths training before you will know enough to design and build interesting stuff and that just isn't so.  Should a beginner eventually know how to work with complex numbers, understand vectors, etc? Yes, eventually and for the same reasons they will want to work their way through a book like Electronics of Radio or spend some time learning how to solder or use an oscilloscope.  But do you need a lot of finite analysis or calculus or solid state physics to design and build interesting and complex circuits? Not really, though you better know all that stuff if you are planning on building a thousand of anything.

PS - I do agree with one thing... if you are going to design stuff, you will spend a lot of time doing calculations and looking at data books, though the calculations are likely to be algebraic and the databook research of the "hmm, that looks good enough" sort.

--- End quote ---

Yup!  You can't even blink an LED without Ohm's Law to figure out the resistor value or the datasheet to find Vf and If plus the datasheet for the driver to find out what current it can provide plus a view of the graph of Vout vs Iout because, sure as shooting, Vout is going to sag with a heavy (relatively) load.  Even the easiest thing, blinking an LED, takes at least 2 datasheets and Ohm's Law to get it right.  Even then, you don't have to design for the maximum If.  Sometimes half that much is bright enough - and it saves power, and heat dissipation.

Electronics is a numbers game.  That's why we have datasheets full of them!  Every single number on the datasheet represents a corner in the safe operating area.  Things the device can do and things it can't.  All of them are important.

Sometimes even I don't agree with me but this whole topic has to revolve around the user.  How much do they want to know?  And how fast do they want to learn it?

--- End quote ---

I think we agree on most of this... the problem is related to "how much do you want to know?" ... beginners can't really answer that question, right? Because we don't know what we don't know yet. But if you start with the question, "here's what I want to do, how do I do it?"  you get some focus.  That's why I recommend that self-learners and hobbyists dig into a book like Art of Electronics. It gives one a way to begin learning how to do interesting stuff quickly and avoids the "you have to be an engineer to design" trap. It also gives you a clue about what you don't know so you looking for ways to learn it.

tggzzz:

--- Quote from: worsthorse on December 28, 2019, 10:53:15 pm ---I think a substantive difference between engineering and hobbyist level work is in reproducibility, reliability, and predictability rather than electronics theory.  As an engineer I focus on designing stuff that can be manufactured, installed, used, maintained and make a profit. As a hobbyist, I probably don't care about any of those things very much. Think of it this way: the hobbyist' work usually stops at the prototype and the engineer's work really starts there.

--- End quote ---

Pretty much true.

I'd add that hobbyists think (to some extent) about how things work, whereas engineers also think about how things fail - and how to reduce the frequency and consequences of failure. Yes, that means many software programmers are no better than hobbyists.

I'd also add another distinction, one that is far less clear cut. Hobbyists repeat previous designs, possibly with minor variations. Engineers either create novel designs or apply existing designs in novel situations.

And those observations imply a way for beginners to start as hobbyists and progress to engineering, if they wish and are capable.

Plus those observations do not contradict your other observations...


--- Quote ---Why does this matter?  Because it is easy to think, as a beginner, that you have to have an engineering or software degree or a lot of maths training before you will know enough to design and build interesting stuff and that just isn't so.  Should a beginner eventually know how to work with complex numbers, understand vectors, etc? Yes, eventually and for the same reasons they will want to work their way through a book like Electronics of Radio or spend some time learning how to solder or use an oscilloscope.  But do you need a lot of finite analysis or calculus or solid state physics to design and build interesting and complex circuits? Not really, though you better know all that stuff if you are planning on building a thousand of anything.

PS - I do agree with one thing... if you are going to design stuff, you will spend a lot of time doing calculations and looking at data books, though the calculations are likely to be algebraic and the databook research of the "hmm, that looks good enough" sort.

--- End quote ---

tggzzz:

--- Quote from: rstofer on December 28, 2019, 11:37:22 pm ---Yup!  You can't even blink an LED without Ohm's Law to figure out the resistor value or the datasheet to find Vf and If plus the datasheet for the driver to find out what current it can provide plus a view of the graph of Vout vs Iout because, sure as shooting, Vout is going to sag with a heavy (relatively) load.  Even the easiest thing, blinking an LED, takes at least 2 datasheets and Ohm's Law to get it right.  Even then, you don't have to design for the maximum If.  Sometimes half that much is bright enough - and it saves power, and heat dissipation.

--- End quote ---

That is significantly complicated by the realisation that Ohms law is a linear relationship and the a LED's VI curve is very non-linear. The traditional solution is to plot a resistor's load-line on the VI graph, and observe where the lines intersect.


--- Quote ---Electronics is a numbers game.  That's why we have datasheets full of them!  Every single number on the datasheet represents a corner in the safe operating area.  Things the device can do and things it can't.  All of them are important.

Sometimes even I don't agree with me but this whole topic has to revolve around the user.  How much do they want to know?  And how fast do they want to learn it?

--- End quote ---

Yup.

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