Electronics > Beginners

How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle

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IanB:

--- Quote from: Spork Schivago on May 18, 2018, 07:50:32 pm ---But then we're back to the power supplies being fed split-phase, aren't we?   It wasn't me who picked out the PDU or the PSUs.   And like I've stated, HPE could have been wrong during their power analysis, but after their power analysis there was one power supply that was available, and only one, the one we have.    And then when it came to a proper PDU, there was no PDUs available that would work with our PSUs and our split-phase, however, there were ones available that would work with 1-phase 240VAC or the 3-phase.   And eventually, we went for the 1-phase 240VAC out of the choices, because of the 3-phase being too much.

--- End quote ---

Except that split phase in this context is not relevant. All you need care about is that it is a 240 V single phase supply. The P9S13A is designed and manufactured for the North American market and comes already fitted with a NEMA L6-30P plug that your electrician would have no problems with. It has 2-pole breakers which is what are needed for North American standards, and it can work with 200-240 V, which is compatible with the 240 V in your house. It is all good. Buying something that is not marked NA/JP is what has got you into trouble here.

A possible lesson learned here is not to rely on the vendor or salespeople to give technical advice. They are mainly interested in making the sale and taking your money. The best way to get advice is to engage an independent consultant with appropriate industry knowledge and experience, someone who will know how everything works and who is not just reading off sales brochures.

Bratster:

--- Quote from: Spork Schivago on May 18, 2018, 08:03:06 pm ---
--- Quote from: Bratster on May 18, 2018, 08:12:21 am ---@Spork

What are you not clear on understanding of how to wire up the Transformer?

The drawing I sketched out gave you the basics of what is going on with it.

Let's stop beating this dead horse.

Whether we like it or not you need a 240-volt line to neutral power service.

The only way you're going to get that from your existing house supply is with a Transformer.

So focusing on that point, what are you having trouble understanding so that everybody can help you out in that aspect?


PS. This post was not meant to come off as offensive or anything like that, I'm sleepy and it looks like this thread is starting to go in circles again.

Night all

Sent from my Moto x4 using Tapatalk

--- End quote ---
Yes, your drawing was amazing.   It's the actual multiple configurations of the wirings that Mr. Crowley and I talked about, I'm still not 100% clear on that.   I understand what wires get tied together in transformer, but I'm not 100% clear on where the two 120VAC's would run to which wires in the transformer and where the neutral would run.   And then I'm not 100% clear on the output side, which wires would get ran to the new breaker panel.   I wasn't picturing the transformer running to a new panel, I was picturing the transformer running to the receptacle to power the PDU.   However, I think your drawing is the correct way to go and is what the electrician that I've contacted would have said, once he finds the time to get back to me.   He's good, he's expensive, but knows the codes and works generally with larger companies.   One of the businesses I deal with recommended him because when they cannot wire something up, they hire him.

They wire up furnaces, whole home generators, etc, so it's not often they need him, but when they do, he's always the one they call.   It takes him a while to get back to me for some reason though.

--- End quote ---
I can't comment on how you wire the Transformer taps specifically as I didn't look at it.

But you would set it up for 240v in and out.

Forget about the neutral from your house, you don't use it in this application.

Only 120v line 1, 120v line 2 and ground.

On the output of the Transformer that's when you now have a new neutral at 0v and one line at 240v.

Sent from my Moto x4 using Tapatalk

IanB:

--- Quote from: Spork Schivago on May 18, 2018, 07:58:49 pm ---I'm trying to understand all this.   How does the 208VAC work exactly?   You say it's phase to phase, that's like my North American Residential Standard Panel Input 240VAC split-phase, right?    240VAC from one 120VAC hot, and from the other 120VAC hot line coming in.   Phase to Neutral is 120.   With 208, you say Phase to neutral is 120.   So the other phase is 88VAC?
--- End quote ---

With three phase supplies the voltages don't add up like that. It is 120 V AC between each hot wire and the neutral, and 208 V AC between the two hot wires (don't ask why, it just is). This is very similar to the single phase supply where you have 120 V AC between each hot wire and neutral and 240 V AC between the two hot wires. The thing is that although the voltages are different, the equipment won't care. It will work with either supply.

Spork Schivago:

--- Quote from: Monkeh on May 18, 2018, 11:48:42 am ---...
In terms of how a power supply is designed and functions.. no, there really isn't a difference. You can throw around buzzwords and price tags all you like, the power supplies for those servers work just like any other.


--- Quote ---You were the one who posted the datacenter pics with the three-phase, weren't you?
--- End quote ---

No.

--- End quote ---
I'm sorry, for some reason, I thought you were the one who posted that.


--- Quote from: Monkeh on May 18, 2018, 11:48:42 am ---
--- Quote ---When I said fancy features, I meant HPE Power Discovery Services (PDS) combines the HPE Intelligent Power Distribution Unit (iPDU) and HPE Flex Slot Platinum Plus power supplies with HPE Insight Control software to create an automated, energy-aware network between IT systems and facilities.
--- End quote ---

Some simple firmware and a lot of marketing speak. Nothing to do with how the input is handled.


--- End quote ---
What I mean is with a normal desktop PC, we generally break the AC down to 12VDC, 5VDC, 3.3VDC, and -12VDC.    With servers like this one, we don't.   Also the equipment inside is generally better (higher quality) and is meant to run 24x7, whereas a desktop PSU really isn't most of the time.   Granted, there are some nice desktop PSUs that have higher quality capacitors and other components.   Ripple current is a bad thing, we agree on that I'm guessing.   With desktops, you can buy a cheap power supply that will kill your motherboard faster than shit because of ripple current.   With these server ones, you don't have to worry about that so much.   This PSU is "smart" in the sense that it's designed to be connected to a PDU that it communicates with.   Generally, desktop power supplies are plugged into surge protectors, not PDUs and aren't designed to communicate with that surge protector.

In the end, yes, they do the same thing.   They convert AC to DC.


--- Quote from: Monkeh on May 18, 2018, 11:48:42 am ---
--- Quote from: Spork Schivago on May 18, 2018, 04:51:48 am ---I need true 240VAC 1-phase
--- End quote ---

Everyone can agree on this. And we can also all agree.. you have true 240VAC single-phase. It happens to have a centre tap making it split-phase distribution which is messing you (and the 'technicians' at HPE) up.


--- Quote from: Bratster on May 18, 2018, 08:12:21 am ---Whether we like it or not you need a 240-volt line to neutral power service.
--- End quote ---

No he doesn't. He needs a PDU capable of safely distributing his centre-tapped 240V phase, rather than a huge lump of iron hanging on his wall.

--- End quote ---

Okay, let's try looking at this at a different way, because I'm getting tired of just debating what I need versus how to actually hook up the transformer properly.   How many companies make RAM?   What?   Three maybe?   Or car batteries?   We'll go with car batteries.   There's two, maybe three companies that produce car batteries.   But how many different car batteries can you purchase?   I have no idea.   But it's a lot more than three, I know that.   There's die-hard, there's Duralast, there's NAPA, and a lot of those have different quality batteries as well, like NAPA Gold, or NAPA Silver, where Gold is supposed to be better.

I have a friend who worked in the automotive field for a long time and could give tours of one of the main manufacturers of the car batteries.   When you walked in, there was a giant glass display with all the different batteries they produced.   One of them was Duralast.   They used to call Duralast Durablast because they're kinda garbage.    This battery manufacturer made Duralast, but they also produced some really high quality batteries.   So, if they're making high quality batteries, why are Duralast so cheap?   It's because the company that's buying the Duralast is requesting that they don't use the high quality parts.   They want them as cheap as they can get 'em, so they have the battery company make them as cheap as they can get them.

Same is true with RAM.   Now, there's only a few companies who make RAM, even server RAM.   We have 2400 MHz load reduced DDR4 dual rank RAM in our servers, made by HPE.   It's pricey.   So I came up with the brilliant idea of maybe instead of purchasing the pricey HPE RAM, I would go and maybe purchase the cheaper server RAM produced by another company.   It'd work the same, probably be the same quality, just a different manufacturer.    Now this is where the trouble comes in.   Let's say I went ahead and purchased that other RAM and then all of a sudden, the motherboard's AC-DC converter circuit fries because of some manufacturing defect that has absolutely nothing to do with me.   The server is still under warranty, I call them up, do they cover the warranty?   No.    Why?   Because I wasn't running their "qualified" HPE RAM.

Even if HPE is wrong, and I can somehow power the PSUs with split-phase, they state that I need single-phase 240VAC.   If something were to happen, they would use that as an excuse not warrant the server faster than you could blink an eye!   I will say that today I got an invoice for one purchase that included some of the upgrades for one of the servers.   It was over 10,000$.    If I went and bought that stuff off of websites myself, it would have been over 30,000$.   That's just the upgrades for the one server.   I mention this for the sole reason that when HPE says we need 240VAC single-phase, I don't want to take any chances with them not covering their server's if something breaks because I didn't listen to their techs or went against what I was told to do.

This is not the first time HPE has said that we needed true 240VAC single-phase for the PSU's.   When our account executive contacted his HPE technicians pre-sale, to get the power advisory started, we gave them a list of everything that was going to be in the server, they came back with what choices we had for PSU's, and the only one on the list where these 1400 watt ones and they made it very clear that we needed the 240VAC and it wouldn't work with our split-phase.   We didn't like that, we asked if there wasn't any other options, why HPE didn't make a PSU for this server at 1400 watt that went to split-phase, we did conference calls, etc.   In the end, they said most people purchasing these power supplies have 3-phase.   Most commercial buildings don't have the residential wiring like we have.   Like, I think it was IanB stated, most people aren't running a real data center out of their basement in a residential zoning district.

At this point, I'd rather not debate anymore on whether or not I can go against what HPE techs and the people I called last night said and continue going in circles with you saying I need to send the PDU back and buy one that works with my electric and me saying I need the transformer.   That's not getting us anywhere.   Even if you feel it's a waste of money, I feel it is the correct move, and all I wanted was advice on what transformer to purchase, and then how to properly wire it up.   And yes, I am going to pay the licensed electrician lots of money to come watch me wire it up to make sure I don't make no mistakes.   I'm going to send the sketch into the city, I'm going to get the permit, I want to purchase the equipment through my VAR because I can get it much cheaper than the electrician charges, I don't know if he'd be okay with that or not though, he hasn't called me back.

But safety wise, rest assured, I'm not ignorant enough to try doing this myself.   I posted in the Beginners section because to me, this 240VAC 1-phase is new.   I have no problems running 240VAC split-phase or installing breakers, or wiring an outlet and running the wires to the breaker, up to code and all that, but this is out of my league, and is the main reason I came here, to try and understand it a bit better.

I appreciate the input you've given me and you definitely got me thinking, that's for sure.   I've learned a good bit since I started posting, which is wonderful, and for a bit, I enjoyed our debates, but now I just don't want to debate it anymore.   Thanks.

Spork Schivago:

--- Quote from: Monkeh on May 18, 2018, 08:04:08 pm ---
--- Quote from: Spork Schivago on May 18, 2018, 07:58:49 pm ---
--- Quote from: oPossum on May 18, 2018, 05:17:44 am ---
--- Quote from: IanB on May 18, 2018, 04:38:29 am ---HP expects commercial power to be available in North America in two flavors of single phase: either 120 V AC ("low-line") or 208 V AC ("high-line"). The 208 V power would be derived from one leg of a three phase transformer and would be true 208-0 V single phase line to neutral.

--- End quote ---

240 and 480 phase to phase is also common commercial power.

208 is phase to phase, not phase to neutral. Phase to neutral is 120.

That is why there are two pole breakers on those PDU.

240 phase to phase would not be a problem.

--- End quote ---

I'm trying to understand all this.   How does the 208VAC work exactly?   You say it's phase to phase, that's like my North American Residential Standard Panel Input 240VAC split-phase, right?    240VAC from one 120VAC hot, and from the other 120VAC hot line coming in.   Phase to Neutral is 120.   With 208, you say Phase to neutral is 120.   So the other phase is 88VAC?
--- End quote ---

Each phase is 120VAC to the star point ('neutral'), 208VAC to each other. Three phases. As mentioned before, 'split phase' isn't really multiple phases: IT IS ONE PHASE with a centre tap.


--- Quote ---And when a device can run off split-phase, does it combine the two phases internally to get the 240VAC or does half the circuit use 120VAC and the other half use 120VAC?

--- End quote ---

There are no halfs. Both hot conductors make for a single phase of 240VAC. That's all the load cares about. With the PDU it's a distribution concern - at loads it's irrelevant.

--- End quote ---

I'm not following how split-phase is really one phase with a centre tap.   Are you talking after it's ran to the device or while it's coming into the house?   Because I know if I take two breakers that are coming off what I call the first phase, and tie the hots together, I'm getting 120VAC, not 240VAC.    I need to tie a hot from one of the incoming lines to the hot from the other incoming line to get the 240VAC.

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