Re-routing a career

[McPete]

G'day all,

I've asked questions about career paths before, but here, but I'm back again

I had a lot more here, but I've trimmed it off in the interests of sparing you all a rant.

Here's the situation; I'm a third year apprentice. I work in a predominantly electrical/electronic calibration, service and repair workshop for a public-sector power transmission utility. I'm not sure how much of a future is in this work.
The trade I'm enlisted in (and have been studying for the last two and a half years) is a process control qualification that is mostly irrelevant to my work and my interests...
I've had to chase down secondments to get any chance of having that qualification recognised, as our workshop has NO involvement in process control- While the HR/Training people have been very supportive, I can't really say the same of my supervisor. Next year, when my trade course ends, I want to start some sort of electronics engineering studies.


I suppose my first question then would be; What's the path that makes most sense for me to get into the electronics industry?

Thankyou in advance!

[EEVblog]

I suppose my first question then would be; What's the path that makes most sense for me to get into the electronics industry?

There are lots of variables in this, including your country, age, financial status, family and living status, desire to study etc.

If you have the money, time, and financial means, then obviously an engineering degree should be under consideration.

At a minimum I'd suggest you consider an "associates degree". The name varies a lot from country to country, but is generally a 2 or 3 year course (full time, longer part time) that essentially gets steps you up from the technician/trade level industry and into the professional or paraprofessional level of the electronics industry.

But of course, it's all really comes down to your work experience. If you want to get more into electronics then you have to try and get a job that is more electronics/engineering/design oriented, and not "trade" oriented. This can be done without any suitable qualifications, but it's a bit harder.

Dave.

[McPete]

I'm glad you've answered first up Dave, because I'm an Australian like yourself (just down the road in Wollongong, no less).

I was planning to do an Advanced Diploma in "Electronic Technology" at TAFE (I posted the link here and you responded to that), which if I'm able to do, will be doing part-time, so that's a four year course as it stands.

Are there any electronics engineering cadetships available in Australia, to your knowledge? Is there a major advantage to having a Degree as opposed to an Advanced Diploma or similar?

Thanks mate!

[tycz]

McPete,

I did the TAFE's Electronics Trade course (three years p/t) several years ago and in 2008 went back and completed the Electrical Engineering Advanced Diploma (one year f/t). Effectively it's the same as the Electronics Technology, the modules are shared and most of my classmates were enrolled in this course. This was at North Sydney TAFE - they had a really hard time attracting enough enrolments, many of my classes had only four or five other students attending. The whole engineering department folded at the end of the year. I recall hearing that those who still needed to complete modules had a choice of transferring one of only two campuses in Sydney which still offered electronics.

I don't know much about Wollongong TAFE but because there is such low demand for this course I recommend against doing it part time. Even if they run it initially, they will likely cancel it before your four years are up.

No that is has done a me a lot of good in the career department anyway! Make no mistake, I enjoyed TAFE and learned a lot there, but I don't think a TAFE diploma is very well regarded for any kind of white collar engineering position, even the entry level ones (as few of them as there are around here).

[EEVblog]

I'm glad you've answered first up Dave, because I'm an Australian like yourself (just down the road in Wollongong, no less).

I was planning to do an Advanced Diploma in "Electronic Technology" at TAFE (I posted the link here and you responded to that), which if I'm able to do, will be doing part-time, so that's a four year course as it stands.

Are there any electronics engineering cadetships available in Australia, to your knowledge? Is there a major advantage to having a Degree as opposed to an Advanced Diploma or similar?

Electronic cadetships? Not really that I'm aware of. Cadetships are really a trade level thing.
Having a degree gives you that wanky bit of paper that supposedly makes you a "real" engineer, and yes, there are a few companies around that are very strict on this requirement.
But in general it all comes down to your actual experience, once you get a foot-hold into an engineering level job then what course you did or where you did it becomes almost pointless.

You can even get a professional graduate level status from Engineers Australia without any qualifications, provided you can prove you have the relevant experience.

Technically there are 3 levels of professional engineering qualifications in Australia. 2 year Diploma level, 3 year "technologist" level, and 4 year "bachelor" level.
Here is a list of technologist level courses:
http://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/shadomx/apps/fms/fmsdownload.cfm?file_uuid=0FE385BC-F77C-59DF-EA5A-EF1641C66BC7&siteName=ieaust
Some are offered part-time by correspondence.

In practice no one really cares about the Technologist level, and it can in fact fool many people because it has the worlds "Bachelor" and "degree" in the title so can sound like a full 4 year traditional engineering degree.

If you have the time, inclination, money, and patience to sit through endless boring math, physics, and advanced theory classes whilst learning little real practical electronics, go for the full degree. Because then you automatically tick the box on job requirements that say "degree", and you sail through step #1. If not, then it's possible to get a great professional design engineering job in the industry with just a Diploma level (or even nothing at all), but you have to work harder at it.

But like I said, it all comes down to what experience you have. if you want to get into electronics engineering then it's vital that you get out of that "trade" level job and into an electronics engineering job and work your way up. just by being enrolled in a Diploma or Degree part time is usually enough for you to go looking for those level graduate jobs even though you are no where near graduating yet.

Dave.

[Waifian]

That being said, If I have a 4 year degree that is a Bachelors of Science in Communications and Electronic Engineering Technology, would that make me a Technologist rather then an Engineer?

A few related questions: What is a technologist? What career paths can a technologist take?

Thanks!

[Zad]

Just a bit of context from the UK here. I have no idea what a technologist is. It sounds a bit like those 16 year old girls that go on a two week course then wear a white coat and call themself an executive beauty analyst or something. Is it the same as technician, or are they lower down the food chain? Unfortunately there are no reserved occupation titles like there are in mainland Europe. To be an engineer there, you not only need an appropriate degree, but appropriate membership of the professional regulating body. This in turn needs you to pass professional exams, have a role supervised by an engineer, and undergo continuous professional development. I would stand no chance!

[Waifian]

Well I found this in a book called: Engineering Technology Education.

The “engineering technologist” is qualified to practice engineering technology by reason of having the knowledge and the ability to apply wellestablished mathematical, physical science, and engineering principles and methods of technological problem-solving which were acquired by engineering technology education and engineering technology experience. The engineering technologist will usually have earned a baccalaureate degree in engineering technology or gained considerable technical experience on the job.

The technologist is a member of the engineering team which will normally include technicians and engineers and, for special projects, may include scientists, craftsmen, and other specialists. The configuration of technical personnel possessing complementary capabilities that facilitate the engineering process is, by necessity, peculiar to each situation. The technologist is expected to have a thorough knowledge of the equipment, applications, and established state-of-the-art design and problem solving methods in a particular field.

An analogy. In efforts to compare engineering and engineering technology, various analogies can be made to show that each operates at a high level of professionalism, competence, and reward. Engineering technology is to engineering as aircraft flight captains are to aircraft designers. In society these two activities would be judged as relatively equivalent, but each performs a different function.

National Research Council Staff. Engineering Technology Education.
Washington, DC, USA: National Academies Press, 1986. p 10.
Copyright © 1986. National Academies Press. All rights reserved. 

[Bored@Work]

An analogy. In efforts to compare engineering and engineering technology, various analogies can be made to show that each operates at a high level of professionalism, competence, and reward. Engineering technology is to engineering as aircraft flight captains are to aircraft designers. In society these two activities would be judged as relatively equivalent, but each performs a different function.

National Research Council Staff. Engineering Technology Education.
Washington, DC, USA: National Academies Press, 1986. p 10.
Copyright © 1986. National Academies Press. All rights reserved. 

Are they trying to say there are people for operating equipment (technologists) and there are people for building it (engineers)? If this is what they want to say, well, they apparently carefully selected the pilot vs. aircraft designer example. Because this is an exception. Typically such activities aren't judged equally, e.g. truck driver vs. car engineer.

[EEVblog]

That being said, If I have a 4 year degree that is a Bachelors of Science in Communications and Electronic Engineering Technology, would that make me a Technologist rather then an Engineer?

A few related questions: What is a technologist? What career paths can a technologist take?

Anything anyone else can take, what course you did rarely limits you to anything unless you THINK it does.

The various "official" Engineering Organisations would beg to differ though. Engineers Australia have a list of technically what a Technologist can do. It's all bullshit of course.

Dave.

[kettles]

Hey buddy,

Bluescope off a variety of cadetships in bachelor electrical, mechatronics and computer engineering. I believe that these positions are based in Wollongong and take about seven years working full time and studying part time. I think the salary starts at about 28k and goes upwards.

There are a few other companies that appear to run similar programs like BMA and some of the energy companies.

As a trade qualified instro you should be able to secure a higher starting salary, decent instros are golden.

After I finished my trade (instrumentation electrical electronic technician) I went back to full time university to study at Deakin in Geelong studying mechatronics but I couldn't handle not earning the sweet coin. I'm now doing it part time off campus and its going well (might be finished by 2014).

What type of electronics work are you interested in? Do you want to work in engineering (Uni), repair (TAFE), instruments, computers, signage, RF, if you can answer this question you will be a lot closer to finding a course that will allow you to grow as a technician and as an engineer.

I did a diploma electronics at night school and found it to be a terrible program, poor teachers, poor courses and just generally shit (but that is only my experience).

Have a great day,

http://cadets.bluescopesteel.com/home/australian-cadetships/brighter-future/brighter-future

[Waifian]

Anything anyone else can take, what course you did rarely limits you to anything unless you THINK it does.

The various "official" Engineering Organisations would beg to differ though. Engineers Australia have a list of technically what a Technologist can do. It's all bullshit of course.

Dave.

I appreciate your input. I hope this is the case.
A few of my old high school friends went for a regular Electrical Engineering Degree at a different school and I can really not find much difference between our "electronic knowledge".
I do have to mention a previous employer of mine hired a guy with a Masters degree in Electrical Engineering from a State University and this guy was clueless when it came to practical engineering or design! 
(The point of that I guess is that it depends on the individual and experiance not just the school or degree)
Unfortunately I think I may be going down the wrong road for experiance as I am currently working as a Field Service Technician. I can't see how I could really apply this experiance to an engineering position interview.

Are they trying to say there are people for operating equipment (technologists) and there are people for building it (engineers)? If this is what they want to say, well, they apparently carefully selected the pilot vs. aircraft designer example. Because this is an exception. Typically such activities aren't judged equally, e.g. truck driver vs. car engineer.

I disagree with how they said that as well. In my opinion I think the two are pretty close together if not the same and they should not have made it out to be like it was an operator of equipment vs. the designer of it.

Just a bit of context from the UK here. I have no idea what a technologist is. It sounds a bit like those 16 year old girls that go on a two week course then wear a white coat and call themself an executive beauty analyst or something. Is it the same as technician, or are they lower down the food chain? Unfortunately there are no reserved occupation titles like there are in mainland Europe. To be an engineer there, you not only need an appropriate degree, but appropriate membership of the professional regulating body. This in turn needs you to pass professional exams, have a role supervised by an engineer, and undergo continuous professional development. I would stand no chance!

Errr.... No? Wait, what?

[McPete]

Thankyou all for your input- Having got a response from TAFE, it looks like I'll proceed with the Electronic Technology Advanced Diploma- I don't have the monetary legs to support myself through Uni, and to get a decent electronics focus, it looks like I'd have to go to the University of Sydney... I'll do my TAFE, and see how I go.

I happened to mutter something in this regard today, and one of my colleagues described any idea of leaving this "retirement job" as pure madness. You have some idea of the mentality that is predominant among my colleagues