Author Topic: Inkscape pcb tracing  (Read 2972 times)

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Offline loop123Topic starter

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Inkscape pcb tracing
« on: February 12, 2024, 03:00:35 pm »
I don't know how to use Inkscape where you can make the 2 circuit overlap front and back and automatically draw a trace that you can load into Ltspice and see the circuit how it work? Ok, I just want to know where the 5 input is connected so I'd know the ESD protection of each wire. If you are very good in tracing. Please demonstrate how Inkscape work by tracing just where the 5 input go. Thanks.

2013701-0

2013707-1
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2024, 04:28:38 pm »
I don't know how to use Inkscape where you can make the 2 circuit overlap front and back

RTFM, looking for "transparency" or "alpha". Probably best to use a tool where you can overlay layers.

Quote
and automatically draw a trace that you can load into Ltspice and see the circuit how it work?

Good luck automatically reversing a schematic from a PCB layout.

If you manage to do it, turn it into a product and become as rich as Croesus.

Quote
Ok, I just want to know where the 5 input is connected so I'd know the ESD protection of each wire. If you are very good in tracing. Please demonstrate how Inkscape work by tracing just where the 5 input go.

How much are you paying, what is the payment mechanism, and what are the Ts & Cs?
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline Andy Chee

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2024, 05:26:49 pm »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2024, 06:02:11 pm »


I wonder why the OP didn't find that?

A typically crap "talking heads" yooootoooob vid. I spent a couple of minutes, and even with the chapter headings I couldn't find out the workflow they were suggesting. 52mins of ums and ahs when I could read the info in 30-60s? I think not. Oh yes, "part 2 to come later".

I wonder how they do that with a double-sided PCB with mounted components?
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline Andy Chee

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2024, 06:58:30 pm »
I could read the info in 30-60s
Ahhh, but can the OP do the same?  I'm not so sure.  Given the vibe of several threads the OP has started, I suspect they need all the hand holding they can get!
 

Offline tatel

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2024, 07:19:02 pm »
even with the chapter headings I couldn't find out the workflow they were suggesting. 52mins of ums and ahs when I could read the info in 30-60s? I think not. Oh yes, "part 2 to come later".

I agree
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2024, 07:35:34 pm »
I could read the info in 30-60s
Ahhh, but can the OP do the same?  I'm not so sure.  Given the vibe of several threads the OP has started, I suspect they need all the hand holding they can get!

Difficult to judge.

It would be polite and considerate of the OP to tell us what research he has done, with what result. I'm not holding my breath.

We would all benefit if he read and actioned some of the hints at  https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/library-2/good-questions-pique-our-interest-and-dont-waste-our-time-2/
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2024, 08:10:46 pm »
How the heck are we supposed to know what input 5 is?

Fortunately that board appears to be not that hard to reverse engineer. It's all through hole, which is a big help and is only two layer.

Take a better photograph of the non-component side, avoiding the reflection of the flash. I would use a flatbed scanner, rather than a camera, if available. Change the colour balance, so it's blue or red, adjust the transparency, mirror and overlay it on the picture of the component side. You can then write the component values on the picture and trace out the circuit. Note there might be hidden traces on the component side, under some components: use a multimeter on continuity to find these.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2024, 10:15:51 pm »
I don't know how to use Inkscape
Then start with the tutorials.  It is a very useful free tool, as the results are publication quality.

I've started the work for you; just download this loop123.inkscape.svg file.

Attached is how I like to organize my Inkscape, with the abovementioned SVG file open.
If you don't see either of them, you can bring them up via the Object menu, Layers and Objects... and Fill and Stroke....  Afterwards, the icon will bring either toolpad to the top on the right.  The draw vector lines tool is the Pen tool, on the left just under the spiral.

In the Layers and Objects toolpane, when you hover on top of a layer name, three small icons will pop up on the right.  The square one controls opacity (and blend mode); the eye toggles whether that layer (and everything in it) is visible or not, and the lock disables all modifications to objects on that layer when locked.  The lock is extremely useful, because clicking on any visible object not locked will select it, no matter what the layer.

I've more or less placed the two images on top of each other, with the back flipped horizontally.  When you hide it, you see the component side of the PCB, and both component and solder side traces (of the ones I bothered to do for you).  Some you will have to beep out using a multimeter, because they're hidden by the chip sockets or wires.  This is such a simple two-layer board that when you get comfortable with Inkscape, it is only a day's work to unravel the entire circuit.

After you have done that, you can use the Inkscape image to create a schematic for the key components in e.g. KiCAD or EasyEDA.  When you have that, you re-verify the connections by comparing the schematic connections to what your multimeter says when probing those points.  Then, you have the schematic covering the key parts of the design, and you can work out what is doing what, and how.

No, I am not going to do the work for you.  I felt it was correct for me to get you started, because I suggested using Inkscape for this in the first place, and it didn't take me long.  Also note that you can use multiple photographs, and stitch them together –– I like to use GIMP for that –– before placing them in the Inkscape SVG file.  The hardest part is aligning the component and solder-side images.  I feel GIMP's Tools > Unified Transform Tool is better than Inkscape here, because it allows skewing the image by dragging at the corners.  (One pastes all images to the same GIMP image, and uses layers just like in Inkscape.  When complete, make sure only one side is visible, then Select > Select All, Edit > Copy Visible, File > Create > Create from Clipboard..., which one can then crop via Image > Crop to Content, and finally File > Export as a PNG image.  JPEG images are lossy, PNG images are not, and the somewhat larger file size does not matter here.)
 

Offline loop123Topic starter

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2024, 11:00:01 pm »
Thanks a lot. I'll try to trace just the initial stage, not the whole product.

In the close-up photos below. The 5 pins from left to right is IN-, Gnd, IN+, V+, V- for the brown,red, orange, yellow and green wire.

Initially I tried to do it by eyes and multimeter but remember with the ISO-Z. It took me several pages of paper to draw the connections and I did many mistakes, and you get tired with many wrong turns. So I will try Inkscape this time at least just the input connections. Also a constant multimeter probe can introduce ESD too if it picks up static, isn't it.

In my initial manual trace. I just couldn't understand why the input had to pass through the Omron relay. I wanted to know if the input goes directly to the AMP01 main amp or has to pass through the TLE2061AIP chip first. I am trying to evaluate the ESD protections inside or sacrificial components that can be easily replaced.  Btw.. I'm just interested generally in BCI (Brain-Computer Interface).

2014313-0

2014319-1

2014325-2

2014331-3
 

Offline loop123Topic starter

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2024, 11:17:20 pm »

To continue above comments. I was stuck initially at the relay and still am. For the 5 input pins. I'm only concerned with IN-, IN+. It goes directly to the center pins of the Omron G6H relay. And looking at the relay schematic, it doesn't even say what the middle pins do. Can you at least tell me what is the function of the relay and where does the IN-, IN+ come out in the relay so I can continue, Nominal Animal? Many thanks.

https://mm.digikey.com/Volume0/opasdata/d220001/medias/docus/1041/G6H_Rev8_4_2010_ds.pdf

2014367-0
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2024, 12:44:49 am »
I'm only concerned with IN-, IN+. It goes directly to the center pins of the Omron G6H relay. And looking at the relay schematic, it doesn't even say what the middle pins do.
It is Omron G6G-2, to be specific.  If we look at the relay from above the component side, the pins are
    1  10
    2  9
    3  8
    4  7
    5  6
Pins 2, 3, 4 form one switch, and pins 9, 8, 7 form another.  Pins 1 (+) and 10 (-) are the power to the relay.  Pins 5 and 6 are not connected.

(In my SVG image, the pins are on both sides in this order, because I flipped the solder side image horizontally; as if we had x-ray vision through the PCB, and are always looking from above the component side.)

When the relay is not energized (no current flows between pins 1 and 10, same voltage potential in them), then pins 3 and 4 are connected together, and pins 8 and 7 together.   When the relay is energized (5 V between pins 1 and 10, about 28 mA of current flowing), then pins 3 and 2 are connected together, and pins 8 and 9 together.  (Could also be exactly the opposite: I'm not 100% certain. You can use a multimeter (when the device is completely unpowered and unconnected) to measure if by default pins 3-4 and 7-8 are connected as I think, or whether it is the reverse with 3-2 and 8-9 connected by default.)

This is why this is called a dual-pole, dual-throw (DPDT, or 2P2T) relay.  The two poles are pins 3 and 8, and they connect to the pins on either side, depending on whether the relay is energized or not.

The purpose for this relay is obviously to disconnect the input from the differential signal path when the calibration signal is enabled.  I did not see this relay before, so I thought it was done in the button; but now I think the button simply energizes this relay when the calibration signal is emitted.  This is good, because signal quality will be much better over such a relay than over a manual switch, the relay being completely enclosed with no external moving parts permitting dust/dirt ingress.  You can see the yellow and the red wires are connected to the relay poles (pins 8 and 3), with 10 (-) connected to the ground pour on the component side, and pin 1 (+) connected to the transistor just above and to the left of the relay.  (This is so that only a small current is needed to energize the relay.)

During normal operation, the differential input signal from the red and yellow wires goes through the relay and to the pins just below the poles, and from there, to the two topmost traces in the component side image, just below the three-pin white connector.  The image is cropped so I don't see where they go from there.

I assume that when the calibration button is pressed, the button press energizes the relay, so that the differential input signal is no longer connected, and instead comes from the pin beneath the front panel blue wire.  The connection from relay pin 2 is on the component side, so I cannot see where it is connected to, but I suspect to the signal ground nearby.
 
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Offline Andy Chee

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2024, 06:48:19 am »
I felt it was correct for me to get you started, because I suggested using Inkscape for this in the first place, and it didn't take me long. 
Incidentally, was there any particular resource that you drew upon? (no pun intended). 

For example, I posted above a random YouTube search about reverse engineering, but what website did you first learn your technique from?
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2024, 07:38:03 am »
I felt it was correct for me to get you started, because I suggested using Inkscape for this in the first place, and it didn't take me long. 
Incidentally, was there any particular resource that you drew upon? (no pun intended). 

For example, I posted above a random YouTube search about reverse engineering, but what website did you first learn your technique from?
I've done image processing –– not much true graphic design, but professional work using for example Adobe Photoshop, Macromedia Freehand and Adobe Illustrator –– for years before I started with electronics, so it was obvious to me.

If you look at how e.g. BigClive does his reverse engineering, he uses the same technique of mirroring one side so the images match, but he seems to prefer printed images rather than working with a vector graphics program.

If we explore my approach a bit, then it might be helpful to start with the pads, and perhaps use different colors for different types of pads (say power pads, ground pads, and signal pads on different sides of the board all having different colors; noting that this board has at least two completely isolated domains/power and ground sets), using copy-paste on a filled circle of a fixed size.  Then, enabling Snap and Snap to Centers of Objects, one can draw the traces much faster, since anywhere near a pad (circle) the endpoint will snap to the center.  Using different colors for the traces, for both different sides of the board, and different types of traces (key signal traces, power traces) can also help.  Each continuous trace should be their own path (which means combining segments using Path > Combine, Ctrl+K), so that one can finally Combine directly connected pads also.  That way, one can expand the Layers and Objects, and use the Eye icon to blink each connected pad set, to immediately see where an IC pin is connected to.

There are additional tricks one can do, like creating a outline filter effect for a pad or trace, and then using the Edit > XML Editor to move the filter to the entire layer instead.  (It is just deleting the filter: url(#filtername); from the style attribute of the object it was edited to, and adding the same style attribute with the same filter: url(#filtername); value to the target layer.)

Most important is to get good, rectilinear images of the boards first, perhaps even move the wires temporarily out of way to see the traces as well as possible.  I wouldn't even try to get everything in a single image per side for a board this size, I'd use an upside-down tub or something with a camera hole (as described by BigClive!) as a stand for my cellphone camera, and snap a couple of dozen images, moving the board around underneath; and stitch them together in Hugin/GIMP/Photoshop/etc. one side at a time; and finally mirror one side and skew and scale them so they overlap as well as possible.  If you download and open the SVG image I did, you'll notice I didn't get them well matched... I didn't bother, because the pictures were cropped, and not the full board.  If this stage is done well, the rest is easy; if this stage is not done well, the end results won't be too helpful either.

I've only looked at small breakout boards this way – sufficiently small to be imaged in a single photo – but Hugin might be useful if you need to stitch multiple photos together.  There are many alternatives, of course.
 
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Offline loop123Topic starter

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2024, 08:26:47 am »
I'm only concerned with IN-, IN+. It goes directly to the center pins of the Omron G6H relay. And looking at the relay schematic, it doesn't even say what the middle pins do.
It is Omron G6G-2, to be specific.  If we look at the relay from above the component side, the pins are
    1  10
    2  9
    3  8
    4  7
    5  6
Pins 2, 3, 4 form one switch, and pins 9, 8, 7 form another.  Pins 1 (+) and 10 (-) are the power to the relay.  Pins 5 and 6 are not connected.

(In my SVG image, the pins are on both sides in this order, because I flipped the solder side image horizontally; as if we had x-ray vision through the PCB, and are always looking from above the component side.)

When the relay is not energized (no current flows between pins 1 and 10, same voltage potential in them), then pins 3 and 4 are connected together, and pins 8 and 7 together.   When the relay is energized (5 V between pins 1 and 10, about 28 mA of current flowing), then pins 3 and 2 are connected together, and pins 8 and 9 together.  (Could also be exactly the opposite: I'm not 100% certain. You can use a multimeter (when the device is completely unpowered and unconnected) to measure if by default pins 3-4 and 7-8 are connected as I think, or whether it is the reverse with 3-2 and 8-9 connected by default.)

This is why this is called a dual-pole, dual-throw (DPDT, or 2P2T) relay.  The two poles are pins 3 and 8, and they connect to the pins on either side, depending on whether the relay is energized or not.

The purpose for this relay is obviously to disconnect the input from the differential signal path when the calibration signal is enabled.  I did not see this relay before, so I thought it was done in the button; but now I think the button simply energizes this relay when the calibration signal is emitted.  This is good, because signal quality will be much better over such a relay than over a manual switch, the relay being completely enclosed with no external moving parts permitting dust/dirt ingress.  You can see the yellow and the red wires are connected to the relay poles (pins 8 and 3), with 10 (-) connected to the ground pour on the component side, and pin 1 (+) connected to the transistor just above and to the left of the relay.  (This is so that only a small current is needed to energize the relay.)

During normal operation, the differential input signal from the red and yellow wires goes through the relay and to the pins just below the poles, and from there, to the two topmost traces in the component side image, just below the three-pin white connector.  The image is cropped so I don't see where they go from there.

I assume that when the calibration button is pressed, the button press energizes the relay, so that the differential input signal is no longer connected, and instead comes from the pin beneath the front panel blue wire.  The connection from relay pin 2 is on the component side, so I cannot see where it is connected to, but I suspect to the signal ground nearby.

Many thanks. Note this was not the same board as before with the ISO122. This is the main amplifier where the ISO122 plugs into. Both have calibration switches. I'll now try to figure out the detour before it gets to the main AMP01 amp. Just want to have idea of the ESD paths inside. Remember you hold the inputs with the hands the whole day, unlike other circuits where it just stays there.
 
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Offline loop123Topic starter

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2024, 10:12:05 am »
Hi Nominal Animal,

I spent some hours reading the Inkscape tutorial and loading them up. I was able to load front pcb and back pcb and adjust the transparency. But how can you just flip horizontally the back? Even when I first loaded the back and flipped it. When I imported the front. The front was automatically flipped. It's like all the layers were flipped at the same time. Even locking it and pressing the eye icon doesn't flip only one layer. How did you flip the back only?

And how did you choose the dots and lines in your drawing for the trace? Which option did  you choose the dot and and the lines here?  I was just tracing if the input has an RFI filters at all. Thanks.

2025587-0

 

I don't know how to use Inkscape
Then start with the tutorials.  It is a very useful free tool, as the results are publication quality.

I've started the work for you; just download this loop123.inkscape.svg file.

Attached is how I like to organize my Inkscape, with the abovementioned SVG file open.
If you don't see either of them, you can bring them up via the Object menu, Layers and Objects... and Fill and Stroke....  Afterwards, the icon will bring either toolpad to the top on the right.  The draw vector lines tool is the Pen tool, on the left just under the spiral.

In the Layers and Objects toolpane, when you hover on top of a layer name, three small icons will pop up on the right.  The square one controls opacity (and blend mode); the eye toggles whether that layer (and everything in it) is visible or not, and the lock disables all modifications to objects on that layer when locked.  The lock is extremely useful, because clicking on any visible object not locked will select it, no matter what the layer.

I've more or less placed the two images on top of each other, with the back flipped horizontally.  When you hide it, you see the component side of the PCB, and both component and solder side traces (of the ones I bothered to do for you).  Some you will have to beep out using a multimeter, because they're hidden by the chip sockets or wires.  This is such a simple two-layer board that when you get comfortable with Inkscape, it is only a day's work to unravel the entire circuit.

After you have done that, you can use the Inkscape image to create a schematic for the key components in e.g. KiCAD or EasyEDA.  When you have that, you re-verify the connections by comparing the schematic connections to what your multimeter says when probing those points.  Then, you have the schematic covering the key parts of the design, and you can work out what is doing what, and how.

No, I am not going to do the work for you.  I felt it was correct for me to get you started, because I suggested using Inkscape for this in the first place, and it didn't take me long.  Also note that you can use multiple photographs, and stitch them together –– I like to use GIMP for that –– before placing them in the Inkscape SVG file.  The hardest part is aligning the component and solder-side images.  I feel GIMP's Tools > Unified Transform Tool is better than Inkscape here, because it allows skewing the image by dragging at the corners.  (One pastes all images to the same GIMP image, and uses layers just like in Inkscape.  When complete, make sure only one side is visible, then Select > Select All, Edit > Copy Visible, File > Create > Create from Clipboard..., which one can then crop via Image > Crop to Content, and finally File > Export as a PNG image.  JPEG images are lossy, PNG images are not, and the somewhat larger file size does not matter here.)
 

Offline sparkydog

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2024, 08:57:33 pm »
I spent some hours reading the Inkscape tutorial and loading them up. I was able to load front pcb and back pcb and adjust the transparency. But how can you just flip horizontally the back? Even when I first loaded the back and flipped it. When I imported the front. The front was automatically flipped. It's like all the layers were flipped at the same time. Even locking it and pressing the eye icon doesn't flip only one layer. How did you flip the back only?

Select thing-you-want-flipped and press 'h'. It's not a display operation, it's an edit operation. AFAIK there is no way in Inkscape to just view something flipped.

And how did you choose the dots and lines in your drawing for the trace? Which option did  you choose the dot and and the lines here?

In SVG, "broken" (i.e. dashed/dotted) lines and markers at line vertices are object properties. Don't make a dashed line by drawing each dash! Make sure the "Fill and Stroke" properties pane is visible (ctrl-shift-F) and select the 'stroke style' tab therein. There are several built-in options for 'dashes'. You can also define your own, but for your purposes, you probably won't need to do so.

If you haven't already discovered it, ctrl-shift-V will change the style of the selected object to match the style of whatever you last copied. That's really useful when you just changed the style of one object and realize there are three others you want to look the same.
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2024, 02:33:13 am »
But how can you just flip horizontally the back?
Like sparkydog said: you select the one object, then select Object > Flip Horizontal (or press H).

All operations in Inkscape affect the currently selected object.  When you use the Selector tool, the topmost one on the left side (the mouse cursor one), you can click on any object to select it, or press Shift and click on objects to add to or remove from the set of selected objects.  For example, in my SVG file, the background image is object "image837" (I was too lazy to rename them!), and when selected, it is shown highlighted in the Layers and Objects pane, under the Back layer.  (The layer is automatically expanded.)

At the bottom of the Inkscape window, there is a status bar, which will tell you exactly what is currently selected.  When you have an image selected, it will tell you "Image width×height: embedded in layer Layer." with the size in currently selected units (my SVG has them all in "pixels", "px").  Images can also be just linked, or referred to by path.  When you copy or move the SVG file, the image file must move accordingly.
When you have for example all the traces selected on Back-Traces layer, it will say "67 objects of type Path in layer Back-Traces."

And how did you choose the dots and lines in your drawing for the trace? Which option did  you choose the dot and and the lines here?
I showed that explicitly in reply #8, the loop123-stroke.png image:
After you draw a polyline using the Pen tool (the one just under the spiral on the left side toolbar), its properties are shown in the Fill and Stroke pane.  Markers generate the small end dots, Join determines how corners in the polyline are drawn, Cap determines how end caps are drawn (except in this case, they will be hidden by the end dots anyway), and Order determines the order in which fills and strokes and end dots are drawn; I selected the first one, fills on the bottom, then strokes on top of fills, with end markers on top.

There is no fill (on Fill pane, the × is selected, with text No paint shown below); the stroke is red (I use RGB, RGBA = ff0000ff; equivalently RGB = 255, 0, 0, 100; equivalently HSL = 0, 100, 50, 100).

In Edit > Preferences, Tools, Pen Tool, you can select either Last used style, or This tools own style:.  If you like a specific style (here, 2px wide red lines), you can select such a line you have already drawn, and click on the Take from Selection button in that dialog, to set it as the default.

For the markers, the size and shape is dictated by which one you select in the list.  These do not typically "stick", and you need to set them for each polyline separately.  However, you can use Edit > Select All (or press Ctrl+A) to select all objects in the current layer, and then set the end markers for all of them at once.  In other words, you can leave the end markers alone when drawing, and just set them for all traces on the current layer at once.  (On my machine, this is for some odd reason slow, so I do tend to set them immediately when I end a polyline (using right-click).)

If you haven't already discovered it, ctrl-shift-V will change the style of the selected object to match the style of whatever you last copied. That's really useful when you just changed the style of one object and realize there are three others you want to look the same.
Ah yes: equivalent to Edit > Paste... > Style.  Nice!

Until very recently, I used Inkscape 0.92 (in Linux Mint 20.3 Una), and it did not have this feature yet, so this was an useful discovery for me too; thanks!



In File > Document Properties, there are three extremely useful sub-panes:
  • Display

    This lets you define the logical size of the document being manipulated.  When the output is printed media, it is useful to use inches or centimeters or millimeters here, because that way the output is exact.  (If you have a correctly set-up and accurate printer, you can print anything in exact size, including PCB images, from SVG files.)

    When the output is scalable digital media, with no set physical size per se, I like to use the Custom format in pixels (px) with Scale = 1.000.  Then, the ViewBox setting determines the coordinate range displayed.  When opened in e.g. a browser, the ViewBox setting is then the key; the browser will automatically scale the SVG to fit the usable area.  If opened directly in a browser, it will fit the window width; if referred to as an image in say a forum post, it will scale to the post area width.  In all cases, it is as sharp as is possible, with no degradation in quality, no matter how large they are zoomed.  This is because the Paths (polylines and curves) are vector elements, defined mathematically.
     
  • License

    This lets you define the license of the SVG file.  This too is new (compared to 0.92, which I used for years).  I could not set it, because I did not know loop123's stance towards the copyright of the board images.  If I had set it, it would be CC0 Public Domain Dedication, which basically means "Everyone can do whatever they like with this document; the author does not assert any copyrights to it".   In forums like this one, it is especially useful, because it is embedded in the file itself, and specifically lets others know they are free to modify and reuse the image.  In general, the other Creative Commons licenses listed there are equally useful.
     
  • Grids

    Grid is a placement aid, enabled whenever you have Snap to grid enabled.  Each grid is specific to the SVG file being edited (it is stored in the SVG file itself), and you can have as many grids as you like.  Rectangular grid is what you'd expect, and axonometric grid is typically used to define a triangular grid.
    This is basically what makes Inkscape so useful when drawing diagrams and such: you just define a suitable grid, enable snap to grid, and everything you draw will automatically snap to grid intersections.  At any point, you can turn off the grid (# key), or enable/disable snap to grid (% key), and instead use e.g. snap to centers, vertices, intersections, et cetera.

    In this particular case, because we are drawing on top of a photograph, the grid isn't very useful.

I particularly like to use a regular rectangular grid to draw 3D diagrams in 2:1 isometric view:

[img width=128]https://www.nominal-animal.net/answers/cube.svg[/img]

The displayed (optimized) version (cube.svg) is a tiny, 1153-byte file; and the Inkscape original (cube.inkscape.svg) contains the grid and other settings making it very easy to modify.  The reason the displayed version by default scales to the maximum size is that it has viewboxing enabled when saving the optimized version.  This means the SVG file does not claim a specific width or height, only describes its displayed coordinate range (viewbox!).
To repeat, because these are vector graphics, they can be scaled indefinitely large or small without any degradation in the image quality.

The way paths (traces, when tracing two-sided PCBs) can be combined (in all vector graphics programs, not just in Inkscape) means you can eventually combine each connected net to a single path, which in turn helps when tracing pad, via, and through-hole connections.  Personally, at that phase, I would keep both KiCAD/EasyEDA/some other schematic capture program open at the same time as examining the connections in Inkscape, with the board and a multimeter (in either ohms mode, or diode connectivity) nearby, to draw the relevant part of the schematic.

Please note that although I'm familiar with these tools, I did not recommend this approach to solve the underlying problem because I like these tools, but because I've found these tools to be efficient when doing this sort of stuff.  The reason I do not recommend directly trying to capture the schematic, is that it is extremely difficult to see things you do not expect when looking for something; in other words, that directly tracing the schematic based on probing the PCB, is just too error-prone, because of the limitations and nature of the human focus when concentrating on something and expecting a specific result.  (For proof of this, please view the selective attention test youtube video.  I guarantee you will be surprised by the result.)

Instead, the underlying problem is divided into separate tasks where you do not expect anything specific, and are trying to capture all details, keeping your eyes open.  This reduces the number of errors and mistakes, and also lowers the cognitive load (making the task easier), and makes the entire process more efficient.

Yes, there is a steep learning curve, but I assume the way I created the PCB tracks from the two partial images shown, is proof that this approach does work; although the next step, combining the connected traces to single paths, and then using that information to create the relevant schematic, is yet to be done.
 
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Offline loop123Topic starter

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2024, 01:00:18 am »
Many thanks for the details guys.  Nominal, your explanations are so good you must write books on tutorials of different topics:)

Inkscape is the most counterintuitive software I have ever used. I can easily draw lines in Autocad or Photoshop the first time I used them. But in Inkscape, I have to spent several hours just to be able to draw one line. They could have put "save setting" right at the Stroke Style for example but one need to take detour at other setting and click "Add Selection" for example. Without this. The pen size defaults back to 1.0mm after one draw.

I could draw them now including the dots, no problem. My question is the following.

2028710-0

When I drew the trace. It is automatically saved in for example in the Back or Front folder. But the problem with it is that you can't make the Front pcb appear as well as the traces saved from Back. Did you create the Back Traces folder and manually transfer each trace from the Back to it? (the above is from your example). If yes, how do you select all the dozens of traces and copy them from Back to Back Traces.  If not, how do you make all the traces done in Back saved to Back Traces for example?

Here are my entries.

2028728-1

Here all the traces are saved in Back folder. I need to copy it one by one to the Back-Traces at top? I want it saved automatically to the Back-Traces folder.



« Last Edit: February 22, 2024, 05:05:54 am by loop123 »
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2024, 05:30:40 am »
When I drew the trace. It is automatically saved in for example in the Back or Front folder.
No, they are not folders!  They are layers.

Think of drawing stuff on transparencies.  In that SVG file, you have four such transparency films: Front, Back, Front-Traces, and Back-Traces, with Front at the bottom and Back-Traces at the top.

(You can drag the layers in the Layers and Objects pane to change their order, or use the and buttons in that pane to move the currently selected layer.)

The nature of SVG files is such that each object can have an unique ID, and Inkscape does assign these automatically.  You can also set those names yourself, as long as each name starts with an ASCII letter (uppercase or lowercase A to Z), followed by any number of letters, digits 0-9, or underscore _.  (Technically, dashes -, colons :, and periods . can also be used, but may cause problems when embedded in HTML files when viewed with certain browsers.)

In Inkscape 1.0, the Layers and Objects pane started to expose the list of objects within each layer.  These objects also have an order, just like the layers themselves, with the topmost object in that list being topmost also visually (but within that layer).  In other words, the object order within the layer determines which objects are drawn on top of other objects; and the layer order determines the order of the layers in the stack of visible objects.

After you select a tool, say the Pen tool (just below the spiral icon), you can see the current settings in the bottom left corner of the Inkscape window.  You can see the Fill and Stroke color, stroke width in Display units, opacity (O:), and the currently selected layer.  There are even copies of the Eye and Lock icon there to show/hide and lock/unlock the current layer there.  (You can change the Display units in File > Document Properties, Display pane, as it typically defaults to millimeters or inches, depending on the template you chose when creating the new document.)

But the problem with it is that you can't make the Front pcb appear as well as the traces saved from Back.
Sure you can!


Did you create the Back Traces folder and manually transfer each trace from the Back to it?
Of course not!

What you do, is select the target layer before you start drawing a new line (or any other object).  For example, in the above image, I have the Back-Traces layer selected.  (You can also see it is selected at the bottom of the window.)

Locking the other layers like I have in the above image is not strictly necessary, but it means the currently selected layer will not change.  Locking means an object or objects in that layer cannot be selected or modified.  Selecting any visible non-locked object will also change the current layer to the layer of that object, so it is easy to "accidentally" change the selected layer if you're not focused; locking the other layers means that won't happen.

If you set the Layers and Objects pane like in the above picture, all new objects you draw will be placed in the Back-Traces layer.

You can use the eye icon in the Layers and Objects pane to show/hide the PCB layers whenever you want, too.  It's just one click away.

The input goes to the switches before it goes to other part. So I need to know the pins of the switches to have idea where it goes out.
When the device is not powered at all, you can use a multimeter (in ohms mode, or in diode continuity mode) to check the switch pin connections in both states –– when pressed, and when not pressed.

(Typically, the voltage across the multimeter pins when in resistance mode is about half a volt, and should not damage any components on the PCB.  The diode continuity mode voltage is higher, but very low current, so it too should be safe.)

Here all the traces are saved in Back folder. I need to copy it one by one to the Back-Traces at top?
To move a bunch of objects from one layer to another, just expand the object list in the Layers and Objects pane, click on the topmost one (of the objects you want to move to another layer), then keep SHIFT key pressed and click on the bottommost one (of the objects you want to move).  This selects them all.  You can then drag them all, just like you would drag a bunch of files in a folder or desktop, to another layer in the Layers and Objects pane.

(Hmm.  I guess that in that sense, it does work exactly like folders in list view.  But the key point is that object order within a layer determines how they are stacked on top of each other, visually; and the layer order determines how the layers are stacked on top of each other, visually.  The eye icon that appears in the Layers and Objects pane whenever you hover on top of a layer name lets you hide an entire layer at once.)

The switches have to be traced to determine if the unit has RFI filter in the input. That is all I wanna determine. It's not to copy the product.
Most of the "intellectual property" of that product is in its component selection and PCB design.  I do not know about Canada, but in Western countries, generally speaking, reverse-engineering the schematic to find out if the product is safe or to verify the product does what it is supposed to do is not illegal at all.

Publishing those schematics, or creating a derivative or replacement based on those schematics, is a murkier issue.  Many Western countries do have exemptions for interoperability and perhaps soon repairability, but they do vary.  On the other hand, biomedical amplifiers are nothing rare or magic: they are well researched in peer-reviewed articles, and their design principles well known.  They really involve a lot of careful design, but no "tricks" or special "innovations"; much more about checking and verifying all the tiny details, than inventing anything novel.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2024, 05:35:55 am by Nominal Animal »
 
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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2024, 09:52:56 am »
Why are you still using Inkscape? KiCad can import (and scale, and add transparency) for such pictures, and it has already been mentioned at least 3 times in this thread. When using KiCad, you also get all the benefits of a regular PCB design project such as DRC for (among other things) guaranteed clearances between tracks. When doing this in KiCad, you also re-create the schematic along the way, and at the end you will have a fully editable PCB project (and easy to create gerber files and order PCB's and such.)
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2024, 12:04:21 pm »
Why are you still using Inkscape? KiCad can import (and scale, and add transparency) for such pictures, and it has already been mentioned at least 3 times in this thread. When using KiCad, you also get all the benefits of a regular PCB design project such as DRC for (among other things) guaranteed clearances between tracks. When doing this in KiCad, you also re-create the schematic along the way, and at the end you will have a fully editable PCB project (and easy to create gerber files and order PCB's and such.)

I already explained this:

Please note that although I'm familiar with these tools, I did not recommend this approach to solve the underlying problem because I like these tools, but because I've found these tools to be efficient when doing this sort of stuff.  The reason I do not recommend directly trying to capture the schematic, is that it is extremely difficult to see things you do not expect when looking for something; in other words, that directly tracing the schematic based on probing the PCB, is just too error-prone, because of the limitations and nature of the human focus when concentrating on something and expecting a specific result.  (For proof of this, please view the selective attention test youtube video.  I guarantee you will be surprised by the result.)

Instead, the underlying problem is divided into separate tasks where you do not expect anything specific, and are trying to capture all details, keeping your eyes open.  This reduces the number of errors and mistakes, and also lowers the cognitive load (making the task easier), and makes the entire process more efficient.

At the core, the reason is the same why one bothers to draw schematics in the first place, instead of just designing the PCB directly.  And, why anyone should bother writing comments in their source code, as after all, the compiler ignores all those and it is thus "wasted effort".  It is all to overcome the human limitations, via clever tool use.
 

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2024, 01:27:57 pm »
This question:
Why are you still using Inkscape?

Was not for you. (Nominal Animal) but for loop123, the OP.

An you (Nominal Animal) may write:
I already explained this:

Please note that although I'm familiar with these tools,

loop123 apparently has a different opinion:
Inkscape is the most counterintuitive software I have ever used. I can easily draw lines in Autocad or Photoshop the first time I used them. But in Inkscape, I have to spent several hours just to be able to draw one line.

And I guess he does not like Inkscape very much in the first place.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2024, 01:35:24 pm »
This question:
Why are you still using Inkscape?
Was not for you. (Nominal Animal) but for loop123, the OP.
And yet, it explains the reason why one should not do it the way you suggest; with even a link to a Youtube video you can view to check if you are prone to the issues the use of a separate program (Inkscape) is supposed to solve.

I suppose you just don't like answers that do not conform to your preconceptions, eh?
 

Offline loop123Topic starter

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Re: Inkscape pcb tracing
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2024, 02:35:38 am »
Thanks Nomimal. I was able to use all your instructions and got some idea of the circuit. But I don't intend to trace all and reproduce them because I'd just like to know if there is an RFI input. So Inkscape is enough for me. I spent days learning and inputting it. Don't want to do with it with KiCad again. I'm not a regular pcb user.

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Earlier. you wrote: " For the markers, the size and shape is dictated by which one you select in the list.  These do not typically "stick", and you need to set them for each polyline separately.  However, you can use Edit > Select All (or press Ctrl+A) to select all objects in the current layer, and then set the end markers for all of them at once.  In other words, you can leave the end markers alone when drawing, and just set them for all traces on the current layer at once.  (On my machine, this is for some odd reason slow, so I do tend to set them immediately when I end a polyline (using right-click).)".

It is very easy to use Edit, Select All and put the dot globally at once. But you mentioned putting dots at every line by right clicking. When I right click below after drawing a line, I got the following, which option which I click to quickly enable dot because you wrote "(using right-click).)" at the end. If you meant going to Stroke Style inside the menu, it would take long to manually put dot at every line.  Thanks!

2030600-1

 


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