Author Topic: Is An Oscilloscope Practical  (Read 10908 times)

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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2019, 03:15:49 am »
Well, the answer is "it depends". That is, the most "bang for buck" in your price range would appear to be the Rigol DS1054z 4 channel, hacked to enable all options plus the 100 MHz bandwidth. But perhaps that is really "too much" bang. For instance I probably only use half or even fewer of the total feature set of my 1054, and I use the heck out of it for all kinds of things both hobby and semi-professional. In the latter role it has paid for itself several times over.

But maybe you only actually "need" something like the Analog Discovery mentioned earlier or another USB style scope that uses your laptop as the user interface. You could get something like the basic Hantek USB thingy for under 100 dollars, even including probes. Then when you realize you actually need some more capability for a particular project .... well, perhaps it's better to have the capability in a tool and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2019, 03:24:11 am »
4 channels or two? (Don't even consider a single channel scope unless someone gives it to you free, alongside a 2ch unit.)

Well, one may very rarely need 3 or 4 channels, or 3 with external trigger. But if you don't have them... it doesn't really matter whether you need them or not, you are "SOL" as they say.

Separate vertical controls for each channel, or just one set, selectable for which channel? OK.... if you rarely use 3 or 4 channels, why have their controls always there, cluttering up the panel space? Well, the extra channel encoders can always be viewed as spares, so when CH1 controls wear out you can swap the encoders for #4 over.... yeah OK that'll work.
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Offline jazper

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2019, 03:33:19 am »
You can spend $50 for a used analogue scope and it will let you see sinewaves.

You can spend $100 for a USB scope

You can spend $250 or so on a two channel scope

You can spend $300-350 (maybe less with a 20% eBay deal or something) on a 1054z with 4 channels

You can spend $500 on a siglent 1104x-e

You decide what you want.

I would go a 4 channel over a 2 channel any day of the week, I would go for higher frequency if it fits in my budget. 4 channels has gotten me out of trouble a few times.

The siglent 1202, 1104 and the rigol 1054z are all good scopes. Ultimately it comes down to your budget
« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 03:38:17 am by jazper »
 
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Online tautech

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2019, 03:50:08 am »
For what it is worth:

1- I really would rather not "hack" something to gain better features. Paying makes more sense, but it also increases the cost of the Rigol DS1054z

2- From what I've read, I had thought the Siglent SDS1202X-E received the best reviews when compared to the Rigol DS1054z
It has better specs and better features but always with 2 less channels. If you’re adamant you won’t need 4 channels it’s a good choice and yes there are cheaper options from Siglent but their specs are much lower than X-E’s and the reason why I don’t stock them.
Many members here are pretty happy with what the SDS1202X-E offers.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2019, 04:12:20 am »
For what it is worth:

1- I really would rather not "hack" something to gain better features. Paying makes more sense, but it also increases the cost of the Rigol DS1054z
There is no 'hack' about it!  The device was manufactured with the capability to switch between 50 MHz and 100 MHz.  The other options were always turned on by entering a code.  All that happens is somebody figured out how to derive the various option codes.  I prefer to think of it as 'unlocking' because the capabilities are already there.

Nevertheless, it's fair to take the DS1054Z off the table.
Quote

2- From what I've read, I had thought the Siglent SDS1202X-E received the best reviews when compared to the Rigol DS1054z

The Siglent is a couple of years newer and the UI is reported to work a lot better.  In short, the SDS1202X-E is the only credible scope in your price range still on the table.  Not a bad choice either!

Be careful of any Rigol review more than about a year old.  Rigol had teething pains (as has Siglent) and it took a few iterations of the firmware to get the problems resolved.  Doesn't matter, Rigol is off the table and Siglent is the last scope standing.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2019, 04:19:43 am »
You can spend $50 for a used analogue scope and it will let you see sinewaves.
Square waves, rectangular waves, sawtooth waves, analog video, modulated RF, DC levels (used as a large
screen centre zero voltmeter), all with frequency content depending upon the 3dB down point of the vertical amplifier.
Quote

You can spend $100 for a USB scope
which, depending on what you buy, will probably battle to look at complex analog signals.
Quote

You can spend $250 or so on a two channel scope
which, if it is a DSO, will be either about the same as the USB scope, or a bit better
Quote

You can spend $300-350 (maybe less with a 20% eBay deal or something) on a 1054z with 4 channels

You can spend $500 on a siglent 1104x-e
Now you are talking about fairly decent DSOs!
Quote
You decide what you want.

I would go a 4 channel over a 2 channel any day of the week, I would go for higher frequency if it fits in my budget. 4 channels has gotten me out of trouble a few times.

The siglent 1202, 1104 and the rigol 1054z are all good scopes. Ultimately it comes down to your budget
 

Offline Kasper

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2019, 04:41:10 am »
Scopes are nice to have, even for a beginner. 

A cheaper and safer option is a simulator. LTspice is a good free simulator. It takes a bit of effort to learn but there is lots of help out there.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2019, 11:14:56 am »
For what it is worth:

1- I really would rather not "hack" something to gain better features. Paying makes more sense, but it also increases the cost of the Rigol DS1054z

You wouldn't need to hack one to look at the sine wave of mains AC. The base model has about 1000x the bandwidth needed for that.

The "hack" is no big deal, just enter a number by pushing buttons on the front panel and everything unlocks. It can also be reset/removed if you want.

2- From what I've read, I had thought the Siglent SDS1202X-E received the best reviews when compared to the Rigol DS1054z

Both have pros and cons but they're really very similar at the end of the day.

OTOH the Siglent costs more and you only get two channels.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2019, 04:46:25 pm »
Looking at the sine wave coming out of the wall or a generator will keep you entertained for about 5 minutes, then what? *Any* scope will work for that, even one of those ancient Heathkit, Eico, etc vacuum tube scopes that have about a 500kHz bandwidth.

Maybe you can borrow a scope from someone for a bit to play around and decide if it's something you want to spend a few hundred bucks on? It doesn't make sense to buy an expensive instrument if it ends up collecting dust once the novelty wears off.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2019, 04:53:47 pm »
Looking at the sine wave coming out of the wall or a generator will keep you entertained for about 5 minutes, then what? *Any* scope will work for that, even one of those ancient Heathkit, Eico, etc vacuum tube scopes that have about a 500kHz bandwidth.

Or get one of these.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2019, 05:56:12 pm »
Or get one of these.
You know, I realize that is not going to replace a real scope but I would find that useful very often because my scope is an old CRT type and very inconvenient to move. I already have more handheld instruments than I need but I might be looking at one of those.
All my posts are made with 100% recycled electrons and bare traces of grey matter.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2019, 06:20:56 pm »
Or get one of these.
You know, I realize that is not going to replace a real scope but I would find that useful very often because my scope is an old CRT type and very inconvenient to move. I already have more handheld instruments than I need but I might be looking at one of those.

There's a thread on those, here.

They're only good up to a few kHz but they're very portable and it's enough to show you the the shape of a generator/inverter's output.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 06:26:07 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline dnwheeler

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2019, 07:43:58 pm »
When trying to decide between 2 and 4 channels, consider if you might want to do protocol analysis. Most digital scopes have the ability to decode serial protocols using multiple channels. SPI, for example, typically uses 3 or 4 channels (clock, MOSI, MSIO, and CS). Even I2C uses two. Having additional channels allows you to decode a serial signal and still be able to watch additional signals at the same time.


Don't forget that most digital scopes have a built-in signal generator, too.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2019, 07:50:08 pm »
But if you want to decode SPI for example, a small logic analyzer is really a better tool for that job. If you're already poking around with a scope then it can be handy to be able to do that with the scope as well, but it's not really necessary when very cheap PC based logic analyzers are available.

I've never had a scope with a built in signal generator but I wouldn't place much value in that feature, it's unlikely to be as good as a separate signal generator. I like tools that focus on doing one task well rather than the "everything and the kitchen sink" approach.
 

Offline Cactus

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2019, 09:24:55 pm »
I'm a almost a complete beginner I understand some of the basics but I rely on the knowledge of others to get me by as I learn. I own two scopes, the first one is a basic old analogue Beckman industrial 20mhz scope which i picked up for £30 the other is a labnation smartscope that i can connect to a pc and it cost significantly more. Many will have opinions about my choices but they suited me at the time. They are not necessarily a recommendation for you.

You are retired and you are looking to play around and learn a bit. Its a few months yet until I retire but I too was looking to learn and enjoy a new hobby. The enjoyment I got from using an old scope was worth every penny. The hour I spent chatting to the retired electronics engineer who I bought the scope from was worth far more than I paid him, and playing about with it taught me much about these mysterious devices.

Whether a  scope is practical for you I cannot say. But I would encourage you to buy one either new or used and have some fun with it and see where your interests take you.  If you find its not for you then sell it. If you buy a used scope wisely you might even make your money back if you sell. The most important thing is that you enjoy your retirement.


 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2019, 10:07:22 pm »
Those are sane comments, cactus.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2019, 10:14:20 pm »
Some example scopeshots from the Rigol 1054z in my lab:



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Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2019, 02:46:55 am »
Lots of good advice in this thread already but here are some more thoughts.

If you are looking to learn and enjoy electronics as part of your retirement you are almost for sure headed for an oscilloscope.  And maybe more than one.  There is another thread about how 19 scopes are what you need to reach “par.” :)

Before you head for multiple scopes it’s probably good to start with one.  My suggestion would be to purchase a Rigol DS1054Z, and to order it from TEquipment.
https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?v=0

It lists for $375 including shipping and it also includes Rigol’s bundle of software options. With this scope you can do power supply work, other analog work, and also explore some digital work including RS-232, I2C, and SPI.  This doesn’t mean you might not still want a logic analyzer some day but it will get you started with digital which can be useful and fun.

TEquipment offers a discount for EEVers, so it might be closer to $350 all in, and they offer a 60 day money back guarantee.  (Disclaimer:  I have no affiliation with TEquipment other than being a happy customer.)

If you want to save more, TEquipment currently has an open box 1054Z for $265.
https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z-B/Digital-Oscilloscopes/
•   One thing to check on with the open box deal is whether the bundled software comes with it

Either way, you could spend more on a scope with other features but the 1054Z will get you going and you will have a ton of people here who will be able to walk you through almost anything related to this model.  Some people here will say much the same about the Siglent scopes.  I haven’t used a Siglent scope but I have used a Siglent 2042X waveform generator and it is excellent.  You’ll find plenty of Siglent vs Rigol opinions here.  I have had a couple Rigol scopes and also 3 Tektronix analog scopes and IMO I think you will be able to learn and do a lot with the Rigol 1054Z.

One reason to consider keeping the price down on the scope is that once you get going with this hobby you might find plenty of other items to add to your bench.  Along this line, suggestions would be to include 2 DMMs, a power supply, and probably some sort of waveform generator.  With these plus some breadboards and component parts plus EEVblog, youtube, and rest of the Internet you can teach yourself plenty and do lots of build and/or repair projects – you will be limited mostly by your time and imagination, although possibly to some extent by the budget because it can be an endless journey of more test equipment, components and supplies, and tools.  As soon as you graduate from the breadboards you’ll be soldering - another addition to the budget.  And it can go on and on… microscopes, spectrum analyzers, ham radio, microcontrollers, logic analyzers, etc, etc.  It really doesn’t have to be too expensive, but outside of RF work the scope might be one of the larger budget items and it all adds up.  So leave some room in the budget (and on your bench / in your lab) for growth.  Hard to say what you might run out of first:  time, money, or space - but probably not fun. :)

All of it can be a blast and I'm confident you will very much enjoy using your scope.  Something about visualizing analog and digital signals together on a scope makes a whole lot of concepts and some of the math more tangible and accessible.

Have fun and Happy New Year!!
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2019, 05:22:44 am »

Although I'm still not sure what I will end up doing, I can't see paying $150 for an old used scope with absolutely no warranty or guarantee that it will function properly when a new DSO can be purchased for just a little more than double that amount ($356 for SDS1202x-E). I'd also like to think it would be much easier to sell the Siglent unit should I lose interest in the hobby and need to dispose of it.

Buying a used scope is always high risk.  Even if you decide to return it, you eat the shipping (usually).  In my view, this is an advanced topic.  And fixing a scope generally requires a scope.

OTOH, a dozen or more years ago I paid about $200 for a used Tektronics 485 scope and I have been using it ever since.  Well, right up until I bought the DS1054Z.  It's a great scope with 350 MHz of bandwidth.

I got lucky!

As to LA versus scope, I will go for the scope every time when I'm working on something simple like SPI.  The scope is right there on the bench, I'm probably probing things anyway, I've just looked at CS' framing so I might as well hook up the other two probes and see if the data looks reasonable.

I've got a couple of LAs but the only time I used them is on FPGA projects where I wanted to keep track of the state variable and a few signals.  There's no point in doing that any more because Vivado has the ILA (Internal Logic Analyzer).  It doesn't even need wires!

Everybody comes up with their own processes.

 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2019, 07:51:52 am »
Some here have suggested I purchase an older analog scope at a good price and see where my interest go from there. Therefore, I have been searching Craigslist and Ebay for an older analog scope. The issue seems to be that if I locate a scope which the seller indicates has been thoroughly tested and functions properly, the cost runs approximately $150 with shipping

Yep. I think the world has reached a point where nobody's dumping analog 'scopes any more and the only people trading them think they're something special and price accordingly.

Plus they're all old and falling apart and maintaining them usually needs a second oscilloscope. If you don't have more than one of them you could end up with a large brick.

As a source of "cheap oscilloscope for beginner", analog isn't the way to go. Not any more.

My advice is to bite the bullet and spend the $350 on a Rigol DS1054Z, or, if you have no absolutely no interest in microcontrollers, a 2-channel Siglent.

These days all the fun is in microcontrollers though. If your aim is to get a new hobby then that's probably the place to be.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 07:57:49 am by Fungus »
 
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Offline BravoV

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2019, 10:15:50 am »

Now that I am retired, I would like to play around and learn a little more about oscilloscopes.


Although I'm still not sure what I will end up doing, I can't see paying $150 for an old used scope with absolutely no warranty or guarantee that it will function properly .....

<snip>..... I'm still undecided. One side of me is saying to simply forget this idea and move on, but yet the other side of me is wanting to move forward. I guess time will tell!

Reading above your own words, ask your self this ...

As you just entering this early retirement period to have some fun, are you ready to waste your energy, time and resources spent for fixing an old scope ? Even its dirt cheap.

Not to mention most of the cases you need an "extra" working scope to fix that broken scope, and also there is no guarantee it can be fixed, even you're experienced and skillful to fix it, as some old scopes have unobtainium parts.

If you determined that you're going to have fun fixing it and take a gamble on it, then go buy old scope.

But if you don't like this idea, protect your self at least 1 year from the new scope warranty.

My 1/4w resistor worth of advice,

Offline Old Printer

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2019, 04:45:15 pm »
Consider what has been said about the other tools you will need. A decent DMM is a must, and two are better, but they have become very cheap and as long as you stay out of mains voltages $50 buys you a nice meter. Once you have your scope you will likely want to add a variable power supply or two and a signal generator. I went the Analog Discovery route while teaching myself and have never been sorry. Not cheap at about $300 but the software is very good and mature, something lacking in most low priced USB scopes. Also it is a power supply, signal generator, 16 channel logic analyser, spectrum analyser and a few more. All geared toward learning. After buying a new one I found an older model on eBay for $50 for my grandson. If you are interested in learning electronics it will allow you to explore many different areas.
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2019, 07:16:28 pm »
After re-reading your original post I should have noticed that you already have many meters.  And DuPont is of course a very seriously capable company.  So given that you repaired equipment there you probably are up to speed on Ohm's Law and can read schematics, which would probably indicate you are pretty familiar with the workings of discrete components including resistors, capacitors, and inductors, and maybe transistors?  And various ICs?  Maybe it would help if you could tell us more about the components and circuits you have worked on or would like to work on, and roughly how much math and theory you have accumulated.

It sounds like you are interested in a combination of learning more about electronics and trying to find some practical uses of a scope and you don't want to invest in a scope unless it gets a reasonable amount of use, which is understandable.  As mentioned in this thread one way to look at it is that if for some reason the scope you buy doesn't trip your trigger it should have some resale value.  In horse math it should be worth roughly half of what you pay for it but maybe more depending on what you buy.  So if you spend $350 you could be out $175 if it becomes a boring boat-anchor, but likely you will get several hours of interesting experience before you come to that conclusion.  Kind of like the cost of taking your wife or girl friend for about 3 dinners with movies.  If it's your wife I'd go for the scope, if it's your girl friend it might be a thinker.  Just kidding.  ;)

This is my second post on this site and is a question to those who are knowledgeable of oscilloscopes:

1- I'm a retired industrial electrician (66 years old). During my career as an electrician for DuPont, I primarily worked on and repaired laboratory equipment & PC's. I'm far from an electronics engineer!

2- During my earlier years while attending school, I did train on and learn how to use an oscilloscope .............. at least the basics! During my working years, I periodically used a scope to check for unwanted noise on an AC to DC power supply, but little else!

Now that I am retired, I would like to play around and learn a little more about oscilloscopes. Naturally, I possess many electrical meters and use them regularly to repair most everthing around the home ........... including friends items as well.

I've been toying with the idea that maybe I should purchase a scope for myself. I have interest in viewing the waveform from my new AC standby generator and possibly checking some power supplies, but other than that, I'm not sure if a scope would do me much good. I'm wanting to learn some new things with my free time, but I'm not so sure how far I would get with a scope.

I've been looking at the Siglent SDS1202X-E ($359.00) ....... I'm sure this is way more scope than I need, but I'd appreciate some guidance. Is there anything else available that will serve me just as well, cost less and still provide accuracy OR is it best I get something like the model I'm looking at just in case I do "like what I see".  Or better yet, is a scope a waste of money for someone like me???

Your honest input is very much appreciated!
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2019, 07:35:18 pm »
For the open box DS1054z deal you should check for:

1. original factory warranty and vendor warranty periods intact
2. should come with 4 probes w/ accessories, power cord, calibration certificate
3. firmware version installed

The "software bundle" is available on line, and sucks anyway, there are better opensource softwares available.  Myself, I never use the software from that "bundle" at all. I use a serial terminal emulator on Linux to send SCPI commands and receive data to/from scope over LAN (like for instance to unlock or remove options), and I use DSRemote for GUI-based remote control over LAN. Everything else is built into the scope's firmware. Even if it does not come with the options unlocked it is a matter of a couple of minutes to generate the necessary key and apply it to the scope. Upgrading firmware to latest version is also simple.

TEquipment is a great vendor. You should be able to call them with your questions.

The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Is An Oscilloscope Practical
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2019, 08:02:14 pm »
FWIW, the open box deal says it is a 30 day money back guarantee (vs. 60 days for the factory sealed model).  30 days should be enough to determine how you feel about it, but it's good to confirm what's included and how the guarantee works.  You will likely find buying from TEquipment to be a very good customer service experience.

If you want to save more, TEquipment currently has an open box 1054Z for $265.
https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z-B/Digital-Oscilloscopes/
•   One thing to check on with the open box deal is whether the bundled software comes with it

This was an interesting thought or suggestion from Electro Fan

Tequipment's website states that all accessories may NOT be included and it doesn't mention if it also ships with the FREE software bundle built into the unit. I guess I need to call these folks Monday and get the details.

If all accessories are included AND the software bundle is available on this demo/open box unit, I would assume this would be a great bargain. However, please do inform me if it's best to steer clear of equipment listed as open box or demo unit!

Thanks!
 


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