Author Topic: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.  (Read 13533 times)

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Offline oldway

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2015, 08:23:16 am »
There are many tricks that avoid burning sensitive components by ESD.
Touch a ground connection before touching the component to eliminate electrostatic voltage is one of them.
First touching the power supply rail of a circuit or a non-sensitive connection of the component before touching a sensitive one is another.
Jim Williams knew this stuffs and definitely used them.
I wonder that beginners come dare criticize Jim Williams ... the day they only have one tenth of the experience of Jim Williams, they might be able to afford to come criticize. :scared:
 

Offline nbritton

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2015, 08:38:36 am »
In the 18 years I've been working as a computer professional I've never once used an ESD wrist strap or mat. However, I always ground myself to an earth referenced ground source prior to handling components, i.g. by touching the bare metal of a computer chassis, server rack, metal junction box, water pipe, etc.
 

Offline GNU_Ninja

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2015, 09:05:16 am »
There comes a point when a cluttered workstation becomes less and less productive.
I can see he reached that point four layers ago.

That ain't just a cluttered workstation its 'The Singularity'. That seemingly chaotic mess of components probably achieved true sentience FROM an accidental static discharge  ;)
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 09:08:20 am by GNU_Ninja »
 

Offline TheBay

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2015, 11:12:13 am »
I touched a leg on an IC and the centre blew out of it across the room once!
 

Offline mikerj

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2015, 11:43:50 am »
I touched a leg on an IC and the centre blew out of it across the room once!

Did you touch it with a big capacitor charged to 400v? :D
 

Offline GNU_Ninja

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2015, 12:11:25 pm »
I touched a leg on an IC and the centre blew out of it across the room once!

One of the service technicians where I work is like that; I swear the bloke's a walking bloody Van de Graaff Generator. Which is weird, because company policy requires us all to wear anti-static shoes and whatnot. We call him Dr Doom. I suppose some people are more prone to 'charging up' :)
 

Offline oldway

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2015, 12:14:07 pm »
I touched a leg on an IC and the centre blew out of it across the room once!
Don't do this with the leg of an IC  :-DD
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2015, 12:26:55 pm »
I touched a leg on an IC and the centre blew out of it across the room once!

One of the service technicians where I work is like that; I swear the bloke's a walking bloody Van de Graaff Generator. Which is weird, because company policy requires us all to wear anti-static shoes and whatnot. We call him Dr Doom. I suppose some people are more prone to 'charging up' :)

I will bet that he does not have working sweat glands in his feet, and thick calluses there as well. Dry skin is a pretty good insulator. I will guess he also does not use fabric softener on his clothes either, which would make them static dissipative.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2015, 12:38:44 pm »
The use ESD straps and other similar paraphernalia such as clean room attire is as much to do with the psychology of the situation as it is physical protection of devices.

If you're making that effort, then instinctively you will take more care.

We've had this discussion many times on eevblog, and there will be differing opinions based on differing experiences. My own is that I have suspected lack of protection on a few occasions, but never been able to prove it as such, with eventual evidence usually pointing elsewhere. The last time was on an RF LNA device whose noise figure significantly degraded, and the production yield problem still continued despite some quite draconian additional ESD controls. In that RF LNA yield problem, almost certainly it was due to secondary reflow (rather than ESD) during some post-assembly rework that was required in that area of the board. Once the board design had been updated to avoid the rework, the yield problem stopped.

I'm not saying that ESD is never a problem, far from it, I'm just saying that one should keep an open mind when problems arise rather than immediately blaming ESD. Pretty much every time I blow up a device I can pretty much guarantee the evidence will point to this operator's error and nothing to do with ESD, but human nature is such that it doesn't stop me thinking it might be.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 12:42:49 pm by Howardlong »
 

Offline Cubdriver

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2015, 03:46:58 pm »
Should I be?



The layers and layers of circuit boards with their myriad components provide plenty of places for static to go. :-DD

Jim's bench was a giant MAZE for static.  It would get into the piles and wander aimlessly, lost forever never to be heard from again.

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 

Offline Cliff Matthews

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2015, 06:14:55 pm »
I wonder that beginners come dare criticize Jim Williams ... the day they only have one tenth of the experience of Jim Williams, they might be able to afford to come criticize. :scared:
Agreed! We should put this thread to rest folks...

Jim's bibliography is on Wiki and expanded at http://web.mit.edu/klund/www/jw/jwbib.pdf  + EDN contributions http://www.edn.com/collections/4374116/Jim-Williams-contributions-to-EDN
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2015, 06:19:01 pm »
I wonder that beginners come dare criticize Jim Williams ... the day they only have one tenth of the experience of Jim Williams, they might be able to afford to come criticize. :scared:
Agreed! We should put this thread to rest folks...

Jim's bibliography is on Wiki and expanded at http://web.mit.edu/klund/www/jw/jwbib.pdf  + EDN contributions http://www.edn.com/collections/4374116/Jim-Williams-contributions-to-EDN

Oh Please;
I am no beginner by any stretch, respect where it is deserved, but a mess is a mess.
This guy's lab looks like a Tweaker's garage.
Sue AF6LJ
 

Offline Cliff Matthews

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2015, 06:24:54 pm »
Oh Please;
I am no beginner by any stretch, respect where it is deserved, but a mess is a mess.
This guy's lab looks like a Tweaker's garage.
Opinions (or legacies) should never be formed from just one angle.
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2015, 07:48:23 pm »
Oh Please;
I am no beginner by any stretch, respect where it is deserved, but a mess is a mess.
This guy's lab looks like a Tweaker's garage.
Opinions (or legacies) should never be formed from just one angle.

Okay It looks less like a Tweaker's garage but still looks like a disaster.

I guess part of my problem might be I never saw anybody who blazed a trail in this industry that was worth idolizing. There are a couple of people who I hold in high respect but they are still made of the same clay as the rest of us.

And No I don't even believe in String Theory, Has not been proven yet.
Sue AF6LJ
 

Offline DimitriP

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2015, 07:56:05 pm »
Quote
I guess part of my problem might be I never saw anybody who blazed a trail in this industry that was worth idolizing. There are a couple of people who I hold in high respect but they are still made of the same clay as the rest of us.

Sometimes you have to be your own hero.
A mirror helps.
   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline nitro2k01

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2015, 08:03:54 pm »
Opinions (or legacies) should never be formed from just one angle.
So, is that a mat of some kind on his bench, or is it just the laminate starting to come off from the tabletop surface?  :-//
Whoa! How the hell did Dave know that Bob is my uncle? Amazing!
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2015, 09:12:20 pm »
Quote
I guess part of my problem might be I never saw anybody who blazed a trail in this industry that was worth idolizing. There are a couple of people who I hold in high respect but they are still made of the same clay as the rest of us.

Sometimes you have to be your own hero.
A mirror helps.
I agree. :)
Sue AF6LJ
 

Offline Bud

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2015, 04:51:51 am »
Did the poor guy have only one pair of shorts?
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline oldway

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2015, 06:06:34 am »
Those who knew the analog electronics era know it was not enough to be a genius to do what Jim Williams did: it was also necessary to have some artistic side.

From a same diagram, a circuit could work or not depending on the person who make it.
Jim Williams workbench is the image of his genius and artist sides.
 

Offline george graves

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2015, 12:55:17 pm »
From a same diagram, a circuit could work or not depending on the person who make it.

Well, that's a new one.  Almost a Jim Willams' religion...

Offline TheUnnamedNewbie

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #45 on: November 20, 2015, 01:46:02 pm »
Having been on a company tour at a facility that focuses on ESD protective IP blocks I thought this might be a good place to shared what I have learned/heard there. Some of this stuff will likely be obvious, others I might have misinterpreted/misheard, but here goes anyways:

There are three main models for ESD:
  • Human Body Model (HBM): A person acts as a capacitor with a relatively large (few kOhms IIRC) resistance.
  • Machine Model (MM): Smaller capacitance as the HBM, but no resistance (machines are usually made out of metals and/or other conductive materials)
  • Charged Device Model (CDM): Charge is accumulated within/on the device itself. The charge is dissipated as soon as one of the pins finds a path to ground. I don't know if this is very common still, but the model was designed back when DIP packages were common in pick and place machines, and the machine vibrated them inside tubes. As soon as the device contacted any metal, it discharged potentially ruining your device.

*The ones we actually come in contact with most is similar to the HBM model. Usually we are dealing with a few KV of potential buildup, ratings go up to 20kV or even 50kV (important for situations where you have exposed contacts on a consumer product, like bus connectors, headphone jacks, ...). Discharge times are on the order of hundreds of nanoseconds (compared to a tens nanoseconds in the MN and sub-nanosecond pulses in the CDM models).

I was told that in "the olden days" (I'm 21 years old and thus haven't a clue if this is correct - feel free to point out any bs written here) ESD was a lot less of an issue. Discretes are less sensitive to ESD because the length of leads and the amount of PCB tracks alone form enough of an inductor to stop a lot of the current spikes. They are built at larger scales with thicker insulating layers and more surface area to dissipate the energy over. And the components were usually designed with higher voltages to begin with.

ESD becomes a more significant issue as you move down process nodes. A bigger FET, rated for higher voltage operation has a lot more space to dissipate the energy provided by the ESD. I don't remember exact numbers, but the oxide layer in 18nm FETs will have to deal with 50MV/cm (since they are so thin) during normal operation (1-3 volts DC). if they are hit by an ESD discharge at a few kV, this goes well into the GV/cm ranges. Larger and more powerful devices are a lot less sensitive since they have thicker oxide layers and larger areas for the currents to flow through once discharge does take place.

Fabs are another place where ESD can be a very significant risk. The air is so clean and pure, and exists almost only of non-polar molecules which have a lot harder time dissipating even the smallest amount of charge. The mere action of putting on bondwires can destroy IC's.

The most sensitive components are things like powerfull processors and FPGA's which end up using a very small nodes. Really sensitive components often have ESD protection internal to them.

Analog components are often a lot stronger anyways. RF stuff is an exception to this, and often can't be protected either (because the protection circuitry would just ruin the RF performance), which is why, as mentioned here, these are most prone to being damaged.

Oh, just a little afterthought: The reason most power components (like say discretes and 74 logic) don't seem to break is because they seldom fully fail: they just get damaged reducing performance (most often the leakagecurrent into the source because a "damaged" path has formed through the source oxide) and/or reliability. You might just not realize because your prototype has to work only once or you are using over-rated components anyways. You could for instance have ruined the Rds(on) causing higher temperatures, making the component die once the product is actually pushed to it's limits.

Hope I didn't mess up to bad...
Parts with a * have been added after I taken some time to read and think about my post.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 05:13:39 pm by TheUnnamedNewbie »
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Offline AF6LJ

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2015, 01:58:22 pm »
 Good job in explaining that.  :-+ :-+
I had ESD training back in the "Olden Days",
Latent ESD damage would sometimes show up as a failure in HT burn-in after the product is built and a day away from final QC acceptance.

Microwave semiconductors have historically came with static damage warnings.

Sue AF6LJ
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #47 on: November 20, 2015, 05:00:24 pm »
TheUnnamedNewbie, thanks for sharing the information. One detail:

I was told that in "the olden days" (I'm 21 years old and thus haven't a clue of this is correct - feel free to point out any bs written here) ESD was a lot less of an issue. Discretes are less sensitive to ESD because the length of leads and the amount of PCB tracks alone form enough of an inductor to stop a lot of the current spikes. They are built at larger scales with thicker insulating layers and more surface area to dissipate the energy over. And the components were usually designed with higher voltages to begin with.

That would depend on the technology referenced. Despite the nodes were larger in size, there were a lot of pure bipolar devices (ICs, BJT and J-FET transistors, diodes) that were naturally less susceptible to ESD due to their physical construction. The original DTL, RTL, TTL, DCTL, ECL and a few other "soup letter" devices are purely bipolar.

However, MOS (Metal-Oxide Semiconductor) started to gain popularity (early to mid 1970's) and its main feature is a terminal fully isolated from the substrate through a very thin coating of Silicon Dioxide (SiO2).  This increased the susceptibility of this terminal (called gate) to ESD, given that discharges were enough to pierce through the glass. This problem started to appear to both discrete MOS field effect transistors (MOSFETs) and IC's (Complementary MOS or C-MOS), but other technologies followed through.

With the experience accumulated in the field after the wider adoption of MOS devices, the IC manufacturers started to integrate (relatively) beefy junction diodes to the input pins - all this to provide a path of lower resistance to ground and prevent the piercing of the gate terminal.

There are several limitations in integrating this diode, but it helped improve the robustness of the gate piercing. However, other problems started to become more significant as the technology nodes were reduced in size - one of them is the width of the wiring inside an IC. ESD failures started to cause enough current density that wires simply vapourized and disconnected parts of the circuit. That is also behind AF6LJ's remark about microwave semiconductors always being susceptible - their dimensions were always smaller.

That (and perhaps other reasons I don't remember here) still make ESD an important matter until today.
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Offline TheUnnamedNewbie

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2015, 05:10:45 pm »
However, other problems started to become more significant as the technology nodes were reduced in size - one of them is the width of the wiring inside an IC. ESD failures started to cause enough current density that wires simply vapourized and disconnected parts of the circuit.


I remember them talking about that failure mode, they said it gave a very distinct and audible click when it happened.
The best part about magic is when it stops being magic and becomes science instead

"There was no road, but the people walked on it, and the road came to be, and the people followed it, for the road took the path of least resistance"
 

Offline timofonic

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Re: It appears that Jim Williams wasn't a big fan of anti-static mats.
« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2015, 06:10:51 pm »
However, other problems started to become more significant as the technology nodes were reduced in size - one of them is the width of the wiring inside an IC. ESD failures started to cause enough current density that wires simply vapourized and disconnected parts of the circuit.


I remember them talking about that failure mode, they said it gave a very distinct and audible click when it happened.
I would love to see a video of that!
 


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