Author Topic: Maths in Engineering  (Read 8012 times)

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Offline JohnwiccTopic starter

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Maths in Engineering
« on: December 28, 2019, 03:11:54 am »
I have just graduated from my HSC (Higher School Certificate) from NSW (New South Wales) Australia. I have received on offer from Griffith University in Queensland (Nathan campus) for: Bachelor of Engineering Technology in Electronic and Computer Engineering https://www.griffith.edu.au/study/degrees/bachelor-of-engineering-technology-in-electronic-and-computer-engineering-1586.

I need to make a decision before 30 December 2019, to either accept/defer/decline the offer from the university. I'm not confident in my maths skills at all, I have revived a mid band 2 (57% overall mark) in General mathematics 2 for one of my HSC subjects. General mathematics 2 is the easiest maths course you can do in high school.

But there is foundation mathematics class I can take at the university to learn higher level maths stuff. https://www.griffith.edu.au/study/courses/foundation-mathematics-1017SCG#trimester-1-gold-coast-campus. But I'm not sure if I would be able to cope with that class too, I have failed the easiest HSC maths in high school. So what should I do then, I don't have long to make a decision?
 




« Last Edit: December 28, 2019, 01:04:20 pm by Johnwicc »
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2019, 04:16:23 am »
I would say it is better to crash and burn trying to make it, instead of letting low confidence and official "rank" in mathematics scare you away. Not from Australia but I would both accept, and sign up for the extra foundation math course. I took one over the summer and it gave me a huge leg up on other students. If you get anxiety and worry, that alone can make a person do poorly in math, or a result from a crappy high school maths teacher.

I had poor marks in Gr. 12 general, then took a 1st year Uni math course over summer session. I knew many students that were terrible at math and they made it through engineering. I'll never forget getting 28% on a vector calculus midterm and class average was 22% so I aced that sucker, lol. All the students used to getting 80%+ were in tears. The Bell-curve makes marks totally different than high school where it's arbitrary what the teacher sets is "50%".
 

Offline anvoice

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2019, 06:03:48 am »
Do you enjoy engineering and technology? Or math for that matter? If so, no reason a little bit of effort can't make this work for you. Just don't expect to have the knowledge handed to you on a platter just because you accept.
If you prefer something like what is called the fine arts here in the US, it may be more reasonable to apply for that...
 

Offline JohnwiccTopic starter

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2019, 06:13:55 am »
Do you enjoy engineering and technology? Or math for that matter? If so, no reason a little bit of effort can't make this work for you. Just don't expect to have the knowledge handed to you on a platter just because you accept.
If you prefer something like what is called the fine arts here in the US, it may be more reasonable to apply for that...

I love how technology works especially of how computer hardware works, but I find maths vary hard. I normally get around 20% to 40% on exam papers like this: https://educationstandards.nsw.edu.au/wps/wcm/connect/d6c0ee8f-7f12-4f19-a62c-716b74015186/2018-hsc-maths-general-2.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE-d6c0ee8f-7f12-4f19-a62c-716b74015186-mVoxsTm
 

Offline anvoice

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2019, 06:38:36 am »
I love how technology works especially of how computer hardware works, but I find maths vary hard. I normally get around 20% to 40% on exam papers like this: https://educationstandards.nsw.edu.au/wps/wcm/connect/d6c0ee8f-7f12-4f19-a62c-716b74015186/2018-hsc-maths-general-2.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE-d6c0ee8f-7f12-4f19-a62c-716b74015186-mVoxsTm

That's a pretty basic math test. In general electronics and engineering requires much more advanced stuff (like calculus, i.e. differentiation and integration). I do agree that if you do accept you should take some extra math fundamental courses in parallel with your main curriculum.

There's something called abstraction in both computer programming and hardware, which basically means you treat some things as black boxes and build bigger systems out of them by just knowing their input/output behavior. In that sense, you can have a good level of success without knowing how all the internals work.

Did you ever consider software development? Also has a lot to do with computers, and (depending on what you do) may not require as a rigorous a math experience.
 

Offline IconicPCB

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2019, 06:41:56 am »
You have a lot of learning to do in order to take up engineering.

Sisyphus comes to mind or in the vernacular deploying a pointed stick along a hillside might be deemed appropriate.

Why did you apply for a STEM based course?
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2019, 06:43:42 am »
Engineering is largely about problem solving and university uses maths to teach and characterize everything. The maths general exam you linked to has both in it.
It would be good to know what aspect is difficult for you. Memorization, problem solving, equations etc.

If you are more of a "hands on" person, then starting out as an electronics technician or similar would be better and not much math. I started off like that because in high school I had poor marks due to partying, university open house had old crappy equipment and buildings, and relying on equations to explain how something works seemed absurd to me. Everything was new at the tech college.
Years later I went to engineering in university, I guess because I needed more challenges.
 

Offline JohnwiccTopic starter

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2019, 06:49:46 am »
Did you ever consider software development? Also has a lot to do with computers, and (depending on what you do) may not require as a rigorous a math experience.
Yea, but I have more of an interest in the "hardware"side of things other then software

You have a lot of learning to do in order to take up engineering.

Sisyphus comes to mind or in the vernacular deploying a pointed stick along a hillside might be deemed appropriate.

Why did you apply for a STEM based course?

I like how things work, but my maths skills a always poor
 

Offline John B

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2019, 06:55:50 am »
Sounds like you should take a gap year to intensively address the math issue. While "giving it a go" is worth some praise, you need to balance that against the real life consequences of being saddled with potentially tens of thousands of dollars of extra debt because you failed the courses.

Also if you are just grasping the fundamental prerequisites, that will detract from you absorbing the new engineering material that you are paying the big bucks to study. It doesn't seem like a good use of the amount of money it will cost. You can learn all the math for free in your own time.
 

Offline anvoice

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2019, 07:05:03 am »
Sounds like you should take a gap year to intensively address the math issue. While "giving it a go" is worth some praise, you need to balance that against the real life consequences of being saddled with potentially tens of thousands of dollars of extra debt because you failed the courses.

Also if you are just grasping the fundamental prerequisites, that will detract from you absorbing the new engineering material that you are paying the big bucks to study. It doesn't seem like a good use of the amount of money it will cost. You can learn all the math for free in your own time.

Sounds like the best idea to me, assuming it's viable for you. If you truly like hardware and are willing to put in the effort to make this work, you'll probably get the math down with practice. I don't know how much education costs in Australia, but it could be expensive to try just to fail.
 

Offline JohnwiccTopic starter

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2019, 07:07:42 am »
Sounds like you should take a gap year to intensively address the math issue. While "giving it a go" is worth some praise, you need to balance that against the real life consequences of being saddled with potentially tens of thousands of dollars of extra debt because you failed the courses.

Also if you are just grasping the fundamental prerequisites, that will detract from you absorbing the new engineering material that you are paying the big bucks to study. It doesn't seem like a good use of the amount of money it will cost. You can learn all the math for free in your own time.

I am thinking about a gap year. I need to make a decision before 30 December 2019, to either accept/defer/decline the offer from the university. I'm just frozen what to do atm. I'm really scared if I do accept the offer, I will fail all maths that is shown to me and I will become a dropout statistic.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2019, 07:10:05 am by Johnwicc »
 

Offline anvoice

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2019, 07:14:54 am »
I am thinking about a gap year. I need to make a decision before 30 December 2019, to either accept/defer/decline the offer from the university. I'm just frozen what to do atm. I'm really scared if I do accept the offer, I will fail all maths that is shown to me and I will become a dropout statistic.
Does deferring essentially give you another year to make up your mind? If so, that seems like your best choice. If you're really not confident, it means you personally don't know where you stand in terms of knowledge, and university is not that forgiving.
 

Offline JohnwiccTopic starter

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2019, 07:19:31 am »
I am thinking about a gap year. I need to make a decision before 30 December 2019, to either accept/defer/decline the offer from the university. I'm just frozen what to do atm. I'm really scared if I do accept the offer, I will fail all maths that is shown to me and I will become a dropout statistic.
Does deferring essentially give you another year to make up your mind? If so, that seems like your best choice. If you're really not confident, it means you personally don't know where you stand in terms of knowledge, and university is not that forgiving.

Yea, deferring is a gap year. That means I would still have my place in the coarse, but it would commence in feb 2021, other then feb 2020
 

Offline JohnwiccTopic starter

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2019, 07:41:34 am »
It would be good to know what aspect is difficult for you. Memorization, problem solving, equations etc.

In the General mathematics 2 course I found the hardest is: probably,simplifying algebraic expressions, financial maths,geometry and statistics

I found easy is: rearranging equations

Some of the question can be found here https://educationstandards.nsw.edu.au/wps/wcm/connect/d6c0ee8f-7f12-4f19-a62c-716b74015186/2018-hsc-maths-general-2.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE-d6c0ee8f-7f12-4f19-a62c-716b74015186-mVoxsTm
« Last Edit: December 28, 2019, 07:44:27 am by Johnwicc »
 

Offline IconicPCB

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2019, 07:52:34 am »
Think about an apprenticeship in high tech game.

In fact try out for an apprenticeship with one of military services... Say navy.

Air force may be too uptight. Foot soldiering may be too close to dirt.

At the end of Your tour You end up with a qualification in technology and possibly man management. Sought after skills in civilian life.
 

Offline JohnwiccTopic starter

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2019, 12:51:44 pm »
BUMP ^
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2019, 04:02:04 pm »
If things like basic calculus trouble you, you are likely to have a lot of problems in an engineering degree course. However, the options in most courses let you avoid the hardest maths in the later years of the course, so you can steer your degree to suit your interests and abilities to some extent. Much of the maths in an engineering course is less about preparing you for a lifetime of doing maths than about giving you the framework needed to understand what is going on in a wide range of physical processes. A life in engineering can be tough if you lack a feel for the maths, even if you aren't working through maths problems every day.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2019, 04:28:37 pm »
Being from the US, I have no idea how your system works or what the various levels mean.  Nor do I understand what a BS in Technology means.  Is it a full blown engineering degree (like our BSEE) or a technician certificate?

In terms of engineering:

You have identified a weakness and it needs to be fixed.  Take the gap year and spend it doing math.  Around here the course might be called "Pre-Calculus" and it would involve Algebra, Geometry, Trigonometry and definitely is focused on solving problems.  It takes two semesters (a full year) and is considered a prerequisite for Calculus I which is a first semester class in an engineering curriculum.  IF you don't have pre-calc skills, you just added a year to your graduation date.

Around here we have Community Colleges that offer pre-calc and they are fairly inexpensive.

You can get help at Khan Academy and, if you want to spend some money, at CalcWorkshop.com (highly recommended).  There is a free course on "Limits" at CalcWorkshop to help you evaluate whether her style of teaching meets your needs.

More advanced math is taught in parallel with engineering subjects but, first semester, you need to start with Calculus I.  In turn, there will be classes for Calculus II, Calculus III, Differential Equation and Linear Algebra.  That is 5 semesters of math or about 2-1/2 years of a 5 year program.  Not to worry, there will be more math in the last 2-1/2 years.  It just will have a different title, like "Field Theory" or "Signals" or "Control Systems" or "Circuits".  There will be a math oriented class every single semester for 5 solid years!

Get that pre-calc out of the way!
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2019, 07:59:29 pm »
Taking a year gap is dangerous, many people get a job and relationship and get comfy. They never take any post-secondary and end up with a life of low wages and hard labour.
What you do in that year is really important, it's easy to get lost in the freedom of not having to go to school.

You say you want to climb a mountain but are not good at it. Where is the part of you that looks for help or wants to improve that, instead of worrying about falling off the mountain?
To see if you have any chance at being a mountain climber, take a university entry math course like pre-calculus and see how you do.
Many of my peers in engineering flunked courses, some flunked the same course twice. They stuck to it and graduated.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2019, 09:15:37 pm »
It's either use the gap year to get a foundation in math or plan on working twice as hard if you head off to the university now.  Still, you can make it.

I dropped out of college as a freshman the day Kennedy was assassinated.  Not because of that but more because I was just tired of going to school.  A couple of years in the Army, a few years of working and I started over (6 years late) but this time I had a family, a job and had to do classes at night.  Not an easy way to get things done.  I wouldn't recommend it.

I would only recommend the gap year if you plan to spend every waking moment working on math.  If not then you still have two choices:  Start at the university or give up on the idea altogether.  If you think pre-calc is tough or you think your first freshman semester is tough, just wait.  It gets more intense as you go along.  The good news is that you build the foundation to make it through as you go along.  It's still going to be a lot of work but I always look at this kind of thing as: "Hundreds of thousands of people have done this, I can do it too!".  My version of "The Law of Large Numbers".  If enough people take the exam, I'll pass.

It's easier if there are no side issues.  Compliments of the US Navy Seals:  "The only easy day was yesterday!"
« Last Edit: December 28, 2019, 09:17:42 pm by rstofer »
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2019, 09:24:20 pm »
Taking a year gap is dangerous, many people get a job and relationship and get comfy. They never take any post-secondary and end up with a life of low wages and hard labour.
Many others realise the path they were taking was just what was expected of them, and not what they wanted. In general, people who take a gap between school and university take university a lot more seriously, because they have a better understanding of why they are there. A lot of top universities make offers to be taken this year or next, so someone can choose to take a gap year with their course beyond that settled in advance. The universities prefer students who have experienced life a little more.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2019, 10:57:35 pm »
As long as the parents don't start playing the harp, "what are you going to do with your life?" during the gap year. It can be more pressure unless a good plan is there.
A university classmate said to me "I don't think I like engineering" during 3rd year EE :palm:  I asked why did he take it, "because my parents said I have to take either engineering or business". He side-transferred into the faculty of business and I was shocked because that was such a waste of much time and tuition fees and course material. Who knows if he even liked business, in the end. But his parents were paying for it all.  I sure couldn't afford to do any of that it was my dime for all of it.
OP is lucky to have some real interests in hardware, at least a direction to go after.

My university only cares about your age past 25, as a "mature student".
First year engineering I swear was a cash cow, they made tuition money from students dropping out yet keeping the enrollment numbers appearing high for government funding.
From 1,000 down to less than 400 after first year, the attrition rate really was stunning.
 

Offline IanB

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2019, 11:33:09 pm »
I love how technology works especially of how computer hardware works, but I find maths vary hard. I normally get around 20% to 40% on exam papers like this: https://educationstandards.nsw.edu.au/wps/wcm/connect/d6c0ee8f-7f12-4f19-a62c-716b74015186/2018-hsc-maths-general-2.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE-d6c0ee8f-7f12-4f19-a62c-716b74015186-mVoxsTm

Although this is called a "maths" test, that is not really what it is. It is a test of logical and deductive reasoning with some testing of memory skills.

This would be a problem for you, because engineering is very largely dependent on logical and deductive reasoning. If you struggle with a test like that you are really going to struggle with engineering, and not because of the mathematics.

As others asked, you need to do a bit of introspection. What is it you find hard about such a test? Why do you only manage to get 20% to 40% marks? Do you not manage to remember the concepts the questions are asking about, or do you have trouble figuring what the questions are asking you to do? Is there some way you can practice, or take extra classes to improve on what you find hard?

To be honest, I am not sure how you would pass an aptitude test for entry into an engineering program with such limited mathematics skills? Something doesn't quite add up here.
 
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Offline jmelson

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2019, 05:45:44 pm »

I am thinking about a gap year. I need to make a decision before 30 December 2019, to either accept/defer/decline the offer from the university. I'm just frozen what to do atm. I'm really scared if I do accept the offer, I will fail all maths that is shown to me and I will become a dropout statistic.
Real-world EE requires good algebra and a little specialized math (Laplace transforms and such) but all the heavy lifting can be done with computer assistance.  You do need to learn the fancy maths for classes, but then hardly anyone ever uses it again, with tools like mathcad.  But, it is real good to understand how the math works.

It might be good to get in a couple advanced math courses during your gap year to get totally up to speed on trig, calculus, diff eq. and such things.

Jon
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Maths in Engineering
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2019, 06:19:03 pm »
I suck at math and I found most of that test to be very easy, I really hate to deliver bad news but I think you will really be struggling if you jump into an engineering program right now. Can you afford a private tutor? Are you self motivated? If the latter you could study intensely for a year on Khan Academy or take some classes elsewhere. You should be able to pretty much ace that exam you posted without too much trouble. You will certainly encounter much, much more advanced math on the way to a 4 year engineering degree.
 


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