Author Topic: Mesh analysis  (Read 34320 times)

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Offline IanB

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #75 on: January 01, 2017, 06:56:06 pm »
Unfortunately you buggered equations 3, 4, 6 and 8 (equations 4 and 8 are still wrong even after your "correction"). They should be:
  V3 = - Va + Vb                          ( 3 )
  i1 = (- V1 - Va) / Z1                  ( 4 )
  i2 = - V3 / Z2                            ( 6 )
  i6 = (- V2 - Vb) / Z3                  ( 8 )

Kindly explain?

Firstly, if the direction of V3 is from b to a, then V3 as a voltage difference is Va - Vb (destination minus source).

Secondly, the current through an impedance is proportional to the voltage difference across that impedance. In your equation 4 you have written "- (V1 + Va)". This is not a voltage difference, it is a voltage sum. Therefore it cannot possibly be correct.

Thirdly, the voltage V3 appears directly across Z2 according to the arrows on the diagram. Why do you wish to introduce a minus sign?

Lastly, your equation 8 has the same problem as your equation 4. You have written the current in terms of a voltage sum instead of a voltage difference.
 

Offline kulky64

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #76 on: January 01, 2017, 07:36:27 pm »
Unfortunately you buggered equations 3, 4, 6 and 8 (equations 4 and 8 are still wrong even after your "correction"). They should be:
  V3 = - Va + Vb                          ( 3 )
  i1 = (- V1 - Va) / Z1                  ( 4 )
  i2 = - V3 / Z2                            ( 6 )
  i6 = (- V2 - Vb) / Z3                  ( 8 )

Kindly explain?

Firstly, if the direction of V3 is from b to a, then V3 as a voltage difference is Va - Vb (destination minus source).

Secondly, the current through an impedance is proportional to the voltage difference across that impedance. In your equation 4 you have written "- (V1 + Va)". This is not a voltage difference, it is a voltage sum. Therefore it cannot possibly be correct.

Thirdly, the voltage V3 appears directly across Z2 according to the arrows on the diagram. Why do you wish to introduce a minus sign?

Lastly, your equation 8 has the same problem as your equation 4. You have written the current in terms of a voltage sum instead of a voltage difference.

Again, you are wrong on all parts. I have attached corrected calculations. I draw 4 loops according to 2nd Kirchhoff law, numbered I. to IV. and written equations. If direction of voltage agreed with my chosen direction of loop arrow I assigned it positive value, if the direction of voltage is opposite I gave it negative value.
 

Offline IanB

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #77 on: January 01, 2017, 07:45:39 pm »
Again, you are wrong on all parts. I have attached corrected calculations. I draw 4 loops according to 2nd Kirchhoff law, numbered I. to IV. and written equations. If direction of voltage agreed with my chosen direction of loop arrow I assigned it positive value, if the direction of voltage is opposite I gave it negative value.

I'm not presenting a voltage loop analysis (KVL), I am presenting a node analysis (KCL). Don't equations 1 and 2 make that clear? The nodal analysis using the current law is the subject of the later part of the thread.
 

Offline kulky64

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #78 on: January 01, 2017, 07:49:05 pm »
Again, you are wrong on all parts. I have attached corrected calculations. I draw 4 loops according to 2nd Kirchhoff law, numbered I. to IV. and written equations. If direction of voltage agreed with my chosen direction of loop arrow I assigned it positive value, if the direction of voltage is opposite I gave it negative value.

I'm not presenting a voltage loop analysis (KVL), I am presenting a node analysis (KCL). Don't equations 1 and 2 make that clear? The nodal analysis using the current law is the subject of the later part of the thread.

So if you are doing KCL, 2nd Kirchhoff law is not valid?
 

Offline IanB

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #79 on: January 01, 2017, 08:00:16 pm »
So if you are doing KCL, 2nd Kirchhoff law is not valid?

Of course it's valid. For example, in the leftmost loop we have:

  V1 - (V1 - Va) - Va = 0

as expected.

Similarly with any other loop we look at.
 

Offline kulky64

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #80 on: January 01, 2017, 08:05:09 pm »
Damn it dude! Look at the direction of arrow on voltage source V1. It goes from BOTTOM to TOP. Your equation would be true if it were going from TOP to BOTTOM.
 

Offline IanB

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #81 on: January 01, 2017, 08:18:02 pm »
Damn it dude! Look at the direction of arrow on voltage source V1. It goes from BOTTOM to TOP. Your equation would be true if it were going from TOP to BOTTOM.

Er...exactly?

If we take the bottom rail as our reference, the voltage goes UP through the voltage source V1, and then it goes DOWN through Z1 and Z4 to get back to the starting point.
 

Offline kulky64

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #82 on: January 01, 2017, 08:25:53 pm »
This has nothing to do with any reference. You can pick reference point wherever you want.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #83 on: January 01, 2017, 08:31:01 pm »
Calculating nodal voltages is easy:

I have been staring at these equations for a couple of hours and I think I'm stuck.

IZ1 = V1 / Z1 = 60A
IZ3 = V3 / Z3 = 30A

I can see where these would be true if V10 and V20 was 0V but that isn't the case.  Suppose the circuit beyond Z1 and Z4 didn't even exist.  The current certainly wouldn't be 60A.

I'm missing something...

I can guarantee they are correct. I attached simulation from Tina-TI. I chose frequency 50 Hz and calculated capacitor and inductor values accordingly. I highlighted in red my manually calculated values of V10, V20 and Is.

TINA shows I_R1(1,3) as 28A at 126 deg, not 60A and you use the 60A value when you set up the matrix earlier - a short circuit current, perhaps.  This is where I'm confused.  It's nice that TINA gives you a tabular display.  I have yet to figure out how to do that with LTSpice.

I got a free copy of TINA a couple of years ago and never really used it.  It is installed on another computer that doesn't see much use.  I may have to look again.

 

Offline kulky64

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #84 on: January 01, 2017, 08:57:48 pm »
Calculating nodal voltages is easy:

I have been staring at these equations for a couple of hours and I think I'm stuck.

IZ1 = V1 / Z1 = 60A
IZ3 = V3 / Z3 = 30A

I can see where these would be true if V10 and V20 was 0V but that isn't the case.  Suppose the circuit beyond Z1 and Z4 didn't even exist.  The current certainly wouldn't be 60A.

I'm missing something...

I can guarantee they are correct. I attached simulation from Tina-TI. I chose frequency 50 Hz and calculated capacitor and inductor values accordingly. I highlighted in red my manually calculated values of V10, V20 and Is.

TINA shows I_R1(1,3) as 28A at 126 deg, not 60A and you use the 60A value when you set up the matrix earlier - a short circuit current, perhaps.  This is where I'm confused.  It's nice that TINA gives you a tabular display.  I have yet to figure out how to do that with LTSpice.

I got a free copy of TINA a couple of years ago and never really used it.  It is installed on another computer that doesn't see much use.  I may have to look again.
Current Iz1 DOES NOT flow through impedance Z1. Iz1 and Iz2 are flowing as indicated on my top right picture. I replaced voltage source V1 and its series impedance Z1 with current source Iz1 with his parallel admitance Y1. This changed topology of circuit a bit, but does not have effect on nodal voltages V10 and V20. Similarly i replaced voltage source V2 and its series impedance Z3 with current source Iz2 with parallel admitance Y3. Voltage source V3 does not have any direct series impedance connected to it, so i have to leave it as is. Otherwise I would replaced it as well. Currents Iz1 and Iz2 of ideal current sources are not regular dependent circuit currents. They are FORCED by current sources and they direction is DICTATED by direction of voltages V1 and V2 respectivrely.

Check this wikipedia article on how to convert voltage source to current source and vice versa:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_transformation
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 09:02:56 pm by kulky64 »
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #85 on: January 01, 2017, 09:41:14 pm »
Calculating nodal voltages is easy:

I have been staring at these equations for a couple of hours and I think I'm stuck.

IZ1 = V1 / Z1 = 60A
IZ3 = V3 / Z3 = 30A

I can see where these would be true if V10 and V20 was 0V but that isn't the case.  Suppose the circuit beyond Z1 and Z4 didn't even exist.  The current certainly wouldn't be 60A.

I'm missing something...

I can guarantee they are correct. I attached simulation from Tina-TI. I chose frequency 50 Hz and calculated capacitor and inductor values accordingly. I highlighted in red my manually calculated values of V10, V20 and Is.

TINA shows I_R1(1,3) as 28A at 126 deg, not 60A and you use the 60A value when you set up the matrix earlier - a short circuit current, perhaps.  This is where I'm confused.  It's nice that TINA gives you a tabular display.  I have yet to figure out how to do that with LTSpice.

I got a free copy of TINA a couple of years ago and never really used it.  It is installed on another computer that doesn't see much use.  I may have to look again.
Current Iz1 DOES NOT flow through impedance Z1. Iz1 and Iz2 are flowing as indicated on my top right picture. I replaced voltage source V1 and its series impedance Z1 with current source Iz1 with his parallel admitance Y1. This changed topology of circuit a bit, but does not have effect on nodal voltages V10 and V20. Similarly i replaced voltage source V2 and its series impedance Z3 with current source Iz2 with parallel admitance Y3. Voltage source V3 does not have any direct series impedance connected to it, so i have to leave it as is. Otherwise I would replaced it as well. Currents Iz1 and Iz2 of ideal current sources are not regular dependent circuit currents. They are FORCED by current sources and they direction is DICTATED by direction of voltages V1 and V2 respectivrely.

Check this wikipedia article on how to convert voltage source to current source and vice versa:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_transformation

Got it!  Actually, I had it earlier when you converted to current sources and admittances and then I had a brain fade.
 

Offline kulky64

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #86 on: January 01, 2017, 10:09:51 pm »
I re-simulated this circuit with current sources just for you. You can now see where currents Iz1 and Iz2 flow. Unfortunately ammeters dont show phase angle, but trust me, I set sinusoidal current sources exactly as I calculated to 60A 0 deg and 30A +90 deg.
 

Offline IanB

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #87 on: January 01, 2017, 10:33:07 pm »
This has nothing to do with any reference. You can pick reference point wherever you want.

I know that. And since I can pick a reference point wherever I want, I chose to pick a reference point at the bottom of the circuit.

Damn it dude! Look at the direction of arrow on voltage source V1. It goes from BOTTOM to TOP. Your equation would be true if it were going from TOP to BOTTOM.

My equation satisfies the KVL. If I changed it the way you suggest, then KVL would not be satisfied. So why would you have me change it?
 

Offline kulky64

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #88 on: January 01, 2017, 10:52:11 pm »
I will not argue any more on this with you. If you cannot see why you are wrong, even after I drew nice loop for you according to 2nd Kirchhoff law and mechanically wrote equation in my Reply #76 for this loop, then I can't explain it any better. Just calculate some numbers according to what you think are correct equations and let's see what you will get.
 

Offline SimonTopic starter

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #89 on: January 04, 2017, 07:00:24 pm »
I have emailed my tutor about this particular question and he has come up with rather an interesting answer. The solution it would seem is to treat the two nodes as one "supernode". In this way the current through the resistor between the two nodes is totally irrelevant as is the current through the voltage source. This apparently is even simpler than it looks as it will then become an equation for one node having taken into account the voltage difference throughout the supernode. I hope to God this stuff is going to be useful one day because I spent three days trying to figure it out the wrong way. I can't see me ever having to solve anything like this in real life, I just need to get the ticket for doing this stuff so that I can move on to something more useful.
 

Offline The Electrician

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #90 on: January 04, 2017, 11:28:06 pm »
This problem is also dealt with at great length on the other forum: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/ac-circuit-analysis-mesh-and-nodal.791744/
 

Offline orolo

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #91 on: January 05, 2017, 12:13:59 am »
I have emailed my tutor about this particular question and he has come up with rather an interesting answer. The solution it would seem is to treat the two nodes as one "supernode". In this way the current through the resistor between the two nodes is totally irrelevant as is the current through the voltage source. This apparently is even simpler than it looks as it will then become an equation for one node having taken into account the voltage difference throughout the supernode.
That supernode idea seems like a pedantic way of introducing equation a-b=V3 into the game so, yes, a = b + V3, and only an unknwon remains: b.

But it is unfair to tell you to forget about the currents, because if I'm not mistaken they were asking you to solve this using strict nodal and mesh analysis. Of course, if you can do it freestyle, you can annihilate the problem like kulky64 did with the help of admittances, or like Ian did with an exhaustive list of all the variables and equations relating them. With that last method, you could even create a computer program to solve any circuit thrown at you.

By the way, the trouble arose in node analysis because V3 is a voltage source. Change V3 for a current source, and the trouble would have appeared in the mesh analysis. What is the dual concept to a supernode (a supercycle)? Does it really matter, if one has a grip on the fundaments?
Quote
I hope to God this stuff is going to be useful one day because I spent three days trying to figure it out the wrong way. I can't see me ever having to solve anything like this in real life, I just need to get the ticket for doing this stuff so that I can move on to something more useful.
When it comes to electronics, I'm just a hobbyist, but I think this stuff if pretty useful. Eg. analysing small signal models, or when dealing with passive filters and matching networks.

Review the maths involved: Rouché's theorem is the key, you need as many independent equations as there are unknowns. You can isolate one unknown at a time, which essentially amounts to Gaussian ellimination. Each wire connecting two nodes contributes an equation, and also an unknown (the current across it). In strict mathematical terms, you have a graph, which you should turn into a directed graph choosing an orientation convention for the wires. If you look at a raw spice file, it is essentially a very sophisticated graph description language.

So your unknowns are: the voltage at each node, and the currents across each wire. One (arbitrary) node you can call earth, and assign 0V to it. As we said, if you have a current source at a wire, you know the current across it, so it contributes a linear equation I_wire = Is, which identifies that unknown. If you have an impedance, you get v_a - v_b = k·I_wire, a linear equation that relates the current to the node voltages. And if you get a voltage source, you have v_a - v_b = Vs, so if you know one node voltage, you know the other (the "supernode idea"). That is, you get a bunch of linear equations.

Two questions remain: 1) do you have enough linear equations?  2) are these equations compatible?

Question 2) is not always true: imagine two nodes connected by two different voltage sources. The equations involved are incompatible. So you must be given a coherent circuit, that's not your problem.

Question 1) is more subtle. First, you must not have isolated nodes (nodes with no connecting wires). It does not take much imagination to understand that your graph must be connected, that is, you can walk from node to node using the wires. Otherwise, you can reduce the problem to solving each connected subcircuit. So it is safe to assume that your graph is connected.

Assuming a connected graph, you get enough equations? Well, not always: if you only have two nodes, and they are connected only by current sources, the voltages at each end are unrelated. Here you get an undetermined problem, not an incompatible one.

So what can you do? Easy: carefully list all the nodes and wires; each contributes an unknown. Then, for each wire, derive a linear equation. Then try to solve the system. If you can, mission acomplished. If you can't, signal an error. That's what spice does.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 12:20:26 am by orolo »
 

Offline The Electrician

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #92 on: January 05, 2017, 12:18:21 am »
Calculating nodal voltages is easy:

Your node voltages have the wrong sign.  orolo got it right in reply #34.
 

Offline kulky64

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #93 on: January 05, 2017, 12:20:39 am »
This problem is also dealt with at great length on the other forum: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/ac-circuit-analysis-mesh-and-nodal.791744/

139 replies in this forum, but not a single correct answer
 

Offline The Electrician

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #94 on: January 05, 2017, 12:24:35 am »
That supernode idea seems like a pedantic way of introducing equation a-b=V3 into the game so, yes, a = b + V3, and only an unknwon remains: b.

By the way, the trouble arose in node analysis because V3 is a voltage source. Change V3 for a current source, and the trouble would have appeared in the mesh analysis. What is the dual concept to a supernode?

When I was taking circuits analysis a long time ago, the supernode concept hadn't been thought of yet.  It is the standard thing taught nowadays: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernode_(circuit)

There is a dual concept; it's called a supermesh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesh_analysis
 
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Offline The Electrician

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #95 on: January 05, 2017, 12:26:15 am »
This problem is also dealt with at great length on the other forum: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/ac-circuit-analysis-mesh-and-nodal.791744/

139 replies in this forum, but not a single correct answer

orolo's answers are correct. You can find more about this problem here, including correct answers: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/ac-circuit-analysis-mesh-and-nodal.791744/

 

Offline kulky64

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #96 on: January 05, 2017, 12:32:16 am »
This problem is also dealt with at great length on the other forum: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/ac-circuit-analysis-mesh-and-nodal.791744/

139 replies in this forum, but not a single correct answer

orolo's answers are correct. You can find more about this problem here, including correct answers: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/ac-circuit-analysis-mesh-and-nodal.791744/

Check picture in my Reply #74. Does orolo's or my signs match the simulation result? Or are you saying SPICE has it wrong?
 

Offline orolo

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #97 on: January 05, 2017, 12:39:57 am »
Check picture in my Reply #74. Does orolo's or my signs match the simulation result? Or are you saying SPICE has it wrong?
I think it all boils down at how do you interpret the arrows in the voltage sources in the OP's diagram. Invert all voltages, and all the results get inverted. That also goes for the spice simulation. BTW, I really liked your solution to the problem, it's simple and elegant.
 

Offline The Electrician

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #98 on: January 05, 2017, 12:45:15 am »
This problem is also dealt with at great length on the other forum: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/ac-circuit-analysis-mesh-and-nodal.791744/

139 replies in this forum, but not a single correct answer

orolo's answers are correct. You can find more about this problem here, including correct answers: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/ac-circuit-analysis-mesh-and-nodal.791744/

Check picture in my Reply #74. Does orolo's or my signs match the simulation result? Or are you saying SPICE has it wrong?

It's not a question of whether Spice has it wrong.  You chose to orient your voltage sources with the + sign corresponding to the tail of the arrow rather than the point of the arrow, said arrow being the one(s) shown in the image in the first post.  I believe the convention is that the direction of the arrow shows the direction of voltage rise through the voltage source.  This would correspond to the + sign on the source in Spice.
 

Offline kulky64

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Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #99 on: January 05, 2017, 12:49:11 am »
Arrows on voltage sources in OP's diagram are clear and unambiguous and so are the simulation results. If you have defined arrow direction, then to this given direction exists only one correct numerical value.
 


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