Author Topic: Newbie PCB production  (Read 1920 times)

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Offline davelectronic

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Newbie PCB production
« on: October 19, 2020, 07:20:27 am »
For a long time know I have wanted to move on to making my own pcb's for projects. After some research, i quite like the idea of the laser jet printer and the glossy paper method. The things I'm uncertain of is the software to use that's suitable for a beginner, and which printer will do that transfer method reliably. Also I've not much space for chemicals etc, I have looked at the lower end equipment for PCB production, and that option isn't something I'd want to rush out and buy.

And just another uncertainty is my ability to map out the circuit in software, I'm familiar with stripboard techniques, although I do make the odd mistake, like overlooking to break a track or solder bridge, silly mistakes once I've spotted it. I suppose it's confidence having a go at this process. I'm good with chassis wiring and case / enclosure design, but uncertain of my ability with mapping out a circuit in software, then taking it to PCB copper clad boards. I can't think of anything more frustrating than mapping out a circuit, getting it on the copper clad board, using the ferric chloride, only to realise you've stuffed it up in software. Any pointers or tips appreciated. Although I'm uncertain of my software art design ability, I'd still really like to try it out.
Thanks for reading.
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Offline bd139

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2020, 07:45:15 am »
If you stuff it up you have to do it again. I don’t think I’ve ever got one right first time in the last 30 years or so. Takes me three boards at average before I’m happy.

If you’re going to do toner transfer, get some toner transfer paper from amazon. It works better than magazines and doesn’t stuff up your printer. But really it’s probably better to throw the design at JLCPCB than invest in your own board manufacturing up front these days. You can get really decent quality 2 and 4 layer boards for virtually nothing.
 
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Offline perieanuo

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2020, 09:38:40 am »
hi,
well for large pitch anything hobby-like may be fine, but when you need fine pitch for small components, hobby is not a reasonable choice, go with jlpcb (or anything you like) and wait for deliver.the quality will be totally different. those days even hobbysts will have to 'go small'
regards, pierre
 
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Offline NivagSwerdna

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2020, 09:52:50 am »
IMHO Don't even consider making your own!

Layout your own PCB using either KiCAD or DipTrace

Send to Electrow, JLCPCB or PCBWay

 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2020, 11:39:42 am »
For a long time know I have wanted to move on to making my own pcb's for projects. After some research, i quite like the idea of the laser jet printer and the glossy paper method. The things I'm uncertain of is the software to use that's suitable for a beginner, and which printer will do that transfer method reliably. Also I've not much space for chemicals etc, I have looked at the lower end equipment for PCB production, and that option isn't something I'd want to rush out and buy.
The printer is the big question mark. Brother lasers categorically don’t work for PCB transfer. Other brands vary wildly. Consensus is that old lasers work best, but IMHO that’s not a viable long-term solution. (There’s a big thread on this very topic — modern printers for PCB transfer — but no solutions have been forthcoming.)

The other thing that is mandatory for a good transfer is a laminator. A clothes iron will NOT produce reliable output. Bear in mind that many laminators must be modified to accept the thickness of a PCB. I suggest doing what I did: get a secondhand heavy-duty office model. (I got mine for $2 from the local classifieds!)

With the right printer, a laminator, and a good process (get the copper impeccably clean and scrubbed, degrease thoroughly, don’t touch with bare hands, etc), you can produce excellent results. I did a few boards for 5050 LEDs and had no trouble whatsoever with 0.25mm traces.

But is it worth the trouble? Errr... I did it for the instant gratification and the fun of tinkering with the process.

But if the Chinese PCB makers have cheap shipping to your country, and you don’t need the board immediately, they make more sense.

And just another uncertainty is my ability to map out the circuit in software, I'm familiar with stripboard techniques, although I do make the odd mistake, like overlooking to break a track or solder bridge, silly mistakes once I've spotted it. I suppose it's confidence having a go at this process. I'm good with chassis wiring and case / enclosure design, but uncertain of my ability with mapping out a circuit in software, then taking it to PCB copper clad boards. I can't think of anything more frustrating than mapping out a circuit, getting it on the copper clad board, using the ferric chloride, only to realise you've stuffed it up in software. Any pointers or tips appreciated. Although I'm uncertain of my software art design ability, I'd still really like to try it out.
Thanks for reading.
The process works like this: first you draw your schematic. This is where the burden of getting it right falls solely on you, so take your time and triple check everything. Once your schematic is done, you create the PCB. The software will understand (based on the schematic) which part pins need to connect, and shows this as the “rats nest” — lines directly connecting the pads that need to be joined by a trace. As you draw in those traces, the rats nest lines go away. When no rats nest is left, you’ve wired all the components. Of course, it’s up to you to wire them in ways that make sense, and to put components where they make sense and lend themselves to good routing. You may find, as I do, that it’s helpful to lay out the PCB twice: the first time as a trial run to discover what works and what doesn’t, and the second time to do it according to those insights, as it is often faster to start from scratch than to modify the trial run. Either way, the software prevents you from forgetting connections and from connecting things that aren’t meant to be connected. There are also rules you can configure to enforce your design needs. (“DRC” - design rule checking.) For example, you can tell it your PCB maker’s minimum tolerances so you don’t make traces too small and too close. Or that a particular net (a connection in your schematic) needs extra thick traces because it carries high current.

If you’ve never used PCB layout software, I highly recommend starting with EasyEDA. It’s web based and free, and IMHO it really is the easiest one. It doesn’t have every feature, but the basics are solid. And it has a huge ready-to-use component library, which is a HUGE problem on other tools. And if you outgrow it, the transition to a more complex tool is MUCH easier than if you’d used the complex tool from the get-go. (EasyEDA is made by LCSC, the same company as JLCPCB, so it ties into the LCSC component library, and makes it super easy to order the board from JLCPCB. But you can use other components and PCB vendors too.)

Kicad’s PCB layouter is great, but the schematic designer is frustrating.

Eagle made me want to gouge out my eyes with a rusty railroad tie.

Altium is what I use at work — EasyEDA is in many ways modeled on Altium (but with far less complexity), so upgrading from EasyEDA to Altium was really easy. At first I hated it, but it’s really grown on me as I’ve figured out the tips and tricks. But unless you can get it from work or through school (I think you can get a free license just by being a student), it’s hella expensive.
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2020, 11:55:52 am »
Just a point. You *can* do it if you want but I tend to do small and simple things. This is a test fixture for MAV-11's I bought from China to see if they were genuine or not:





That was transfer film + clothes iron + ferric chloride. I wouldn't do anything complex or that requires drilling holes which is a PITA.
 
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Offline davelectronic

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2020, 07:35:59 am »
Thanks for your replys, I hadn't realised the laser printer model was that critical for this purpose. I had seen the JLB PCB advertisements for producing boards, as I've yet to put a circuit together via a custom PCB using software, not sure I'd use that route first straight off the bat. Probably lack of confidence in my ability to get it right. I'm ok with technical hardware procedures, it my ability using software that might have a few hiccups. Guess I've got to embrace"Windows" as I doubt the software programs run on Linux, my favourite OS. Looking at a supplier of electronic components and tools in the UK, I see they've discontinued a lot of PCB production equipment they use to stock. They still have the UV unit, but only a small unit though. I suppose it comes down to cost for making your own PCB designs, I'd like to give it a go. Years ago the only thing I can ossociate the process with, is that of processing your own photography work in the darkroom, only as a DIY step to reaching the means to an end. Quite a bit of what I would put together in a custom PCB would be power supply circuits, and a far bit of high current trace layouts in any design I put together. Is there a popular laser printer out the that you'd recommend ? Or is it just tast it and see. I'm sure I'd like to give your own processing of PCB a try.
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Offline bd139

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2020, 09:15:19 am »
I use Kicad (on windows) but it runs on Linux fine: https://kicad-pcb.org/ ... I did this yesterday with it and ordered 5 boards including delivery for £8.89 from JLCPCB:



If you're doing power supply circuits you can specify 4oz copper at JLCPCB for some additional cost. If you're doing it yourself, the old way of running extra solder works pretty well on the boards.

WRT UV stuff, keep a look out on ebay for UV exposure boxes as they do turn up here for not much.

WRT printers, I use an HP LaserJet Pro M148 and that works nicely. Brother ones apparently don't work but I haven't tried it.

 
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Offline NivagSwerdna

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2020, 09:25:26 am »
Check out... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLy2022BX6EspFAKBCgRuEuzapuz_4aJCn&pbjreload=102

This is a small tutorial for using KiCAD to get to manufacture... a run of 5 boards will cost you very very little (shop around to minimise P&P costs)

By getting it done professionally you avoid drilling and working around a lack of vias... that's enough for me to not even consider making my own.

 
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2020, 01:24:29 am »
Quote
The things I'm uncertain of is the software to use that's suitable for a beginner, and which printer will do that transfer method reliably.
Eagle has options for doing this. On the print page, you wanna check "black" and for the top copper layer you wanna check "mirror."

For some other PCB CAD softwares, you might have to get creative. E.g., you can print to PDF, then flip the image with a PDF editor.

I feel like most printers work for toner transfer. I had a Brother that used high temp toner that wouldn't fuse. But most of the modern Brother printers are vanilla and should work.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 01:26:45 am by KL27x »
 
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Offline davelectronic

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2020, 02:00:49 am »
Well I've installed W10 on my main pc, its really a gaming pc, but i don't game period. So my first stop should be getting to grips with the software, i'm a hardware guy through and through, stick me in a machine shop and i'll make to the brief spec. Software....
Ok i will give it a go, but a have a vision of much magic smoke appearing, that's the only thing with sending files off for production, it s got to be 100% right. If i stuff a board up, as in magic smoke, and i used the printer method no one will know  ;D But off to production could end in an epic fail. Thank you for the reply's and suggestion's, a lot of stuff you've already mentioned i had no idea about. But this is a bucket list thing, and i've only copper stripboard up until now. PCB production just seems to be the final piece of the puzzle for me. I will surely check out the software programs you have mentioned.   
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And if it works fix it anyway.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2020, 05:27:08 am »
Quote
The things I'm uncertain of is the software to use that's suitable for a beginner, and which printer will do that transfer method reliably.
Eagle has options for doing this. On the print page, you wanna check "black" and for the top copper layer you wanna check "mirror."

For some other PCB CAD softwares, you might have to get creative. E.g., you can print to PDF, then flip the image with a PDF editor.

I feel like most printers work for toner transfer. I had a Brother that used high temp toner that wouldn't fuse. But most of the modern Brother printers are vanilla and should work.
I have yet to encounter a PCB layout program that doesn’t have the option to mirror the output.

Consensus is overwhelming that the choice of printer is critical, and that the percentage of new printers that work keeps dwindling. You’re the first and only person I’ve ever seen say that any Brother works. Do you have a model number? The one I tried at work did not work. (I don’t think it’s high-temp.)

The B&W Kyoceras at work produce blurry output on transfer paper. The color Kyocera (the big workgroup machine) didn’t fully transfer onto the paper, catching the rest of the toner on the next sheet of paper...
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 05:30:47 am by tooki »
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2020, 06:24:41 am »
Well I've installed W10 on my main pc, its really a gaming pc, but i don't game period. So my first stop should be getting to grips with the software, i'm a hardware guy through and through, stick me in a machine shop and i'll make to the brief spec. Software....
Ok i will give it a go, but a have a vision of much magic smoke appearing, that's the only thing with sending files off for production, it s got to be 100% right. If i stuff a board up, as in magic smoke, and i used the printer method no one will know  ;D But off to production could end in an epic fail. Thank you for the reply's and suggestion's, a lot of stuff you've already mentioned i had no idea about. But this is a bucket list thing, and i've only copper stripboard up until now. PCB production just seems to be the final piece of the puzzle for me. I will surely check out the software programs you have mentioned.   

On the getting it right thing, something I did:

1. ordered boards
2. realised I've made a mistake almost immediately
3. cursed loudly
4. ordered some fixed boards
5. When the wrong boards arrived, immediately stuff one.
6. Spent an entire day debugging it wondering why it's not working
7. Correct boards arrive next day, reminding me what an idiot I am

 :-DD

Also there's the "I forgot to check the SMA footprints" variety of cock up:



All these errors have been written down carefully in OneNote and turned into a checklist which is actually saving a lot of trouble now. Make sure you start writing these things down so you don't hurt yourself twice with the same issue.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 06:27:36 am by bd139 »
 
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Offline austfox

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2020, 07:14:08 am »
Seems a lot of people are against making their own boards. I’d say do it, but not if the intention is to save money, that usually won’t work out. Do it because it is part of your hobby and you enjoy it.

I have had limited luck with the toner transfer method (I was using Brother printers) and a variety of different films / papers. I tried another brand of printer (can’t recall, maybe a Fujitsu) but still no luck. It was probably more to do with the fact that my bare copper was not clean enough.

I switched to Kinsten boards (presensitised) and had much more reliable results.

 
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Offline davelectronic

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2020, 02:15:58 pm »
Yes it was primarily for the fun of the hobby, I'm not looking to save money by trying my own PCB design production. A lot of tips and suggestions, thank you for all those. I will research the printer option, as in as much what printer model is suitable, even if it's an old model printer I can find. The last you tube video I watched on this homebrew technique was MR Carlson's lab, where he produced a psu board for replacement in a bench supply I think. Software is not my strong point, but definitely going to try something. Just rounds off the project process.
Only Honesty equals integrity.

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And if it works fix it anyway.
 

Offline pwlps

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2020, 02:50:41 pm »
I can't think of anything more frustrating than mapping out a circuit, getting it on the copper clad board, using the ferric chloride, only to realise you've stuffed it up in software. Any pointers or tips appreciated. Although I'm uncertain of my software art design ability, I'd still really like to try it out.

The important thing is not to forget to run the ERC (electrical rules check) and clean the schematic from all ERC errors/warnings before switching to the PCB layout editor.  It won't guarantee  success but will help a lot to detect obvious errors like missing connections etc. 
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 02:54:24 pm by pwlps »
 

Offline m k

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2020, 03:20:49 pm »
I have had limited luck with the toner transfer method

I was first writing how it happens inside the machine and then realised you are not changing the ink.

It's then mainly how black is black first.
One could guess that after canvas it's generally fine and economy stuff of the machine that are important.
And then how ink is reacting with chemicals.
Something to do with the plate surface also, like is grinding a must or not.

Xerographic has generally two basic methods, positive and negative.
If that changes ink properties somehow then use only the better one.
No idea what kind of a chaos finding those machines would be, it's finally quite centralised industry.

Anybody tried those small name tag carving machines?
Nowadays it of course could be a Dremel and unfinished 3D-printer.
Or modified vinyl cutter with pressured drill bit.

But still, after all the fuzz, you're still stuck with a single sided board and without through hole rivets.
Better do a good installation with minimal redo.

For notes,
I'm good at doing them, bad at doing them long enough.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2020, 07:06:44 pm »
Quote
You’re the first and only person I’ve ever seen say that any Brother works. Do you have a model number? The one I tried at work did not work. (I don’t think it’s high-temp.)
No, I never bought/owned more than one model of Brother printer. I have read of other peoples' success with Brother printers, though. On this forum.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/toner-transfer-printer/msg1559131/#msg1559131

I replaced the toner with generic toner, and it worked perfectly fine for toner transfer. But the toner gradually degraded the printer drum and print quality went to hell by the end of that refill. So any printer which can use generic toner refills has a pretty good chance of working. (Of course the generic toner seller listed my Brother model as compatible, so you can't trust these guys to do their due diligence).

My printer was the HL2070 and took the TN-350 cartridge, IIRC. If you look up the MSDS you will see it's different from most of their toner cartridges. Unless things changed that much in the last decade.

Quote
I have yet to encounter a PCB layout program that doesn’t have the option to mirror the output.
You're way ahead of my curve. I only know how to use 2, and the one that doesn't have this option is ExpressPCB. I discovered on some printers, you can mirror the image in the driver. Something "script" then you find the box for mirror. But some printers don't have that option, and I used a PDF printer to do the job.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 08:29:08 pm by KL27x »
 
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2020, 07:19:46 pm »
FWIW to the OP, I use an HP Laserjet 1102w, now. It lays the toner on a little thick, and I have to pre-etch the boards to soak up all the toner. Else it will squish around and fatten and distort the traces.

Apparently, many of the modern printers don't lay on as much toner, and this won't happen. But then you get the opposite problem of getting pin holes in solid pours. Some people use a foil layer to top the toner layer, to get solid fills. With my printer and technique, I don't need to do this.

I order $ thousands of commercial PCB a year, and I still make my own boards, as well. I can do 8/8 boards with 99.99% reliability. I get the result on the first try, basically every time. Even if I haven't made a board in a year.

HP1102w
Pulsar transfer paper. It's dextrin-coated, and you just soak it in water for 10 seconds then peel it off.
pre-etch the board to give it porosity/texture
transfer with laminator, plus a heat gun on full blast on the board as it goes into the laminator
proper etchant; acid peroxide gives inferior results in standard thickness or beyond, although it's pretty much fine on 1/2 oz copper.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 07:21:24 pm by KL27x »
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2020, 12:48:28 am »
Quote
You’re the first and only person I’ve ever seen say that any Brother works. Do you have a model number? The one I tried at work did not work. (I don’t think it’s high-temp.)
No, I never bought/owned more than one model of Brother printer. I have read of other peoples' success with Brother printers, though. On this forum.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/toner-transfer-printer/msg1559131/#msg1559131

I replaced the toner with generic toner, and it worked perfectly fine for toner transfer. But the toner gradually degraded the printer drum and print quality went to hell by the end of that refill. So any printer which can use generic toner refills has a pretty good chance of working. (Of course the generic toner seller listed my Brother model as compatible, so you can't trust these guys to do their due diligence).

My printer was the HL2070 and took the TN-350 cartridge, IIRC. If you look up the MSDS you will see it's different from most of their toner cartridges. Unless things changed that much in the last decade.

Quote
I have yet to encounter a PCB layout program that doesn’t have the option to mirror the output.
You're way ahead of my curve. I only know how to use 2, and the one that doesn't have this option is ExpressPCB. I discovered on some printers, you can mirror the image in the driver. Something "script" then you find the box for mirror. But some printers don't have that option, and I used a PDF printer to do the job.
I’ll look at that thread again.

As for ExpressPCB: that is a crazy oversight on their part!!!

As for mirroring: as a Mac user, it boggles my mind that mirroring is still a feature that in Windows is provided by the print driver. On the Mac, mirroring is one of a number of layout options provided by the OS, independent of the application and the printer driver. I bumped into that limitation on windows myself not long ago: I wanted to try doing toner transfer of a nameplate silkscreen onto aluminum. I had simply done a mock-up in Word to see if the toner transfer would work. And then discovered that while the driver has a checkbox to mirror the printout, it’s permanently grayed out because Kyocera only supports mirroring with one particular page description language (which must be selected during printer configuration), but the IT department had selected another language, meaning that the mirroring option isn’t available. I even have local admin rights, but there’s no way to change it locally, since the printer is managed.  |O |O |O
 

Offline S. Petrukhin

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2020, 08:58:08 pm »
As for ExpressPCB: that is a crazy oversight on their part!!!

As for mirroring: as a Mac user, it boggles my mind that mirroring is still a feature that in Windows is provided by the print driver. On the Mac, mirroring is one of a number of layout options provided by the OS, independent of the application and the printer driver. I bumped into that limitation on windows myself not long ago: I wanted to try doing toner transfer of a nameplate silkscreen onto aluminum. I had simply done a mock-up in Word to see if the toner transfer would work. And then discovered that while the driver has a checkbox to mirror the printout, it’s permanently grayed out because Kyocera only supports mirroring with one particular page description language (which must be selected during printer configuration), but the IT department had selected another language, meaning that the mirroring option isn’t available. I even have local admin rights, but there’s no way to change it locally, since the printer is managed.  |O |O |O

Adobe Photoshop will help you out  :)
And sorry for my English.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2020, 02:22:33 am »
As for ExpressPCB: that is a crazy oversight on their part!!!

As for mirroring: as a Mac user, it boggles my mind that mirroring is still a feature that in Windows is provided by the print driver. On the Mac, mirroring is one of a number of layout options provided by the OS, independent of the application and the printer driver. I bumped into that limitation on windows myself not long ago: I wanted to try doing toner transfer of a nameplate silkscreen onto aluminum. I had simply done a mock-up in Word to see if the toner transfer would work. And then discovered that while the driver has a checkbox to mirror the printout, it’s permanently grayed out because Kyocera only supports mirroring with one particular page description language (which must be selected during printer configuration), but the IT department had selected another language, meaning that the mirroring option isn’t available. I even have local admin rights, but there’s no way to change it locally, since the printer is managed.  |O |O |O

Adobe Photoshop will help you out  :)
Talk about suggesting the wrong tool for the job...
Plus,  I shouldn’t have to ask the IT department to license an expensive software package to print a mirror image.
 

Offline S. Petrukhin

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2020, 03:19:27 am »
Adobe Photoshop will help you out  :)
Talk about suggesting the wrong tool for the job...
Plus,  I shouldn’t have to ask the IT department to license an expensive software package to print a mirror image.

Do you often need to perform mirror printing?
If not, then free on-line photoshop will help you or any other graphic program.
If often, it may be cheaper and easier to buy a local inexpensive printer.
And sorry for my English.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2020, 09:15:30 am »
Adobe Photoshop will help you out  :)
Talk about suggesting the wrong tool for the job...
Plus,  I shouldn’t have to ask the IT department to license an expensive software package to print a mirror image.

Do you often need to perform mirror printing?
If not, then free on-line photoshop will help you or any other graphic program.
If often, it may be cheaper and easier to buy a local inexpensive printer.
I appreciate you trying to be helpful, but it was just a rant on my part, not a request for help. :p I’m a computer professional myself.

Luckily, the main thing I ever need to print in mirror image (even on Windows) is PCBs, and both of the layout programs I use (EasyEDA and Altium) know how to do that themselves.
 

Offline S. Petrukhin

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Re: Newbie PCB production
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2020, 12:50:05 pm »
Adobe Photoshop will help you out  :)
Talk about suggesting the wrong tool for the job...
Plus,  I shouldn’t have to ask the IT department to license an expensive software package to print a mirror image.

Do you often need to perform mirror printing?
If not, then free on-line photoshop will help you or any other graphic program.
If often, it may be cheaper and easier to buy a local inexpensive printer.
I appreciate you trying to be helpful, but it was just a rant on my part, not a request for help. :p I’m a computer professional myself.

Luckily, the main thing I ever need to print in mirror image (even on Windows) is PCBs, and both of the layout programs I use (EasyEDA and Altium) know how to do that themselves.

Why do you print mirror images? Do you use thermal transfer of toner to make PCB? Having noticed by contacting the IT Department, this is not a personal hobby for you. Why do you manufacture the PCB yourself?

I wonder how much it costs to make 2 sides of a PCB in Canada? Much more expensive than in China? In Russia, in particular in my city, we have more than 5 enterprises that independently produce PCB. Some of them are military and there do not want to hear about third-party orders, and the civilian price for 1dm is 12 times more expensive (taking into account the cost of delivery from China by 8 times approximately). I have been ordering PCB in China for a long time. We have to wait. But you will be surprised: local manufacturers are still more expensive on a small quantity (I only make prototypes, not do mass production), even if the expensive DHL delivery.

I respect the Chinese workers!
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 12:51:38 pm by S. Petrukhin »
And sorry for my English.
 


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