Author Topic: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?  (Read 10751 times)

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Online radiolistener

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2019, 07:07:08 pm »
This is wrong.

What is exactly wrong? Can you explain please?

You don't agree that AC source consumes power from capacitor?

Or you don't agree that power consumed by AC generator is used to make rotation more hard?
 

Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #51 on: August 24, 2019, 07:07:41 pm »
Just look, if it works like you say, it will turns into perpetuum mobile, which is not possible. It doesn’t bother you?

There isn't a textbook or forum member that will support your theory. It doesn't bother you?

If it were a lossless system, it *would* go on forever. Just like this:



It's easy enough to think up a system that would stay in motion forever if there were no losses. The impossibility of perpetuum mobile machines lies in the fact that they can not keep going if you extract energy from it.
 

Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #52 on: August 24, 2019, 07:12:43 pm »
You don't agree that AC source consumes power from capacitor?

A generator that consumes power is called a motor. Again: there are two options: either every forum member, text book writer, grid operator,... is plain wrong and you're on to something or your time is put to better use trying to understand what we are trying to tell you or to do some actual research rather than... whatever it is you're doing in this thread.
 

Online radiolistener

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #53 on: August 24, 2019, 07:18:05 pm »
If it were a lossless system, it *would* go on forever. Just like this:

You're wrong, I already say that there is a loss. Energy from capacitor will be consumed by AC source. You cannot make lossless circuit in such way and perpetuum mobile is not possible at all.

Free energy and lossless - this is your words and your ideas. Believe me, power which is accumulated in capacitor will be returned back to AC source and consumed by AC source. It will be consumed and used to stop rotation of your AC generator. So, you won't be able to get infinite rotation by connecting capacitor to AC generator.

So, believe me, your perpetuum mobile with infinite rotation won't works  :-//
 

Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #54 on: August 24, 2019, 07:23:04 pm »
 
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Online radiolistener

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #55 on: August 24, 2019, 07:24:44 pm »
A generator that consumes power is called a motor.

But this motor will works to stop your generator, it won't works to keep rotation.

So, you're think that AC source will not consume energy from capacitor? :)
 

Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #56 on: August 24, 2019, 07:33:35 pm »
But this motor will works to stop your generator, it won't works to keep rotation.

IT DOESNT!!  |O This *electric motor* GIVES back the energy to the *mechanical motor* just as before the "electric generator* TOOK energy from *mechanical motor*  :horse: :horse:
 

Online radiolistener

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #57 on: August 24, 2019, 07:36:15 pm »
Again: there are two options: either every forum member, text book writer, grid operator,... is plain wrong

Again, there are two options:

1) you're right, LTSpice works wrong and there is no power consumption by AC source from capacitor

2) you are wrong and AC source consumes power from the capactor as it shown in LTSPice

I'm completely agree with LTspice and I think that AC source consumes power from capacitor. What is your choice?

IT DOESNT!!

Previously you're said that there is no power loss due to capacitor. Let's clarify things step-by-step.

First answer - do you agree that AC source consumes power from the capacitor? Yes or no?

« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 07:54:00 pm by radiolistener »
 

Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #58 on: August 24, 2019, 07:49:50 pm »
Again: there are two options: either every forum member, text book writer, grid operator,... is plain wrong

Again, there are two options:

1) you're right, LTSpice works wrong and there is no power consumption by AC source from capacitor

2) you are wrong and AC source consumes power from the capactor as it shown in LTSPice

I'm completely agree with LTspice and I think that AC source consumes power from capacitor. What is your choice?

For the love of...



Now integrate the power over time.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 08:02:11 pm by Ice-Tea »
 
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Online radiolistener

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #59 on: August 24, 2019, 08:03:39 pm »
Now integrate the power over time.

it will be zero.

But you didn't answered on the question. Do you agree that AC source consumes power from the capacitor? Yes or not?
 

Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #60 on: August 24, 2019, 08:14:16 pm »
Now integrate the power over time.
it will be zero.

You understand this demonstrates no real effort from the generator side is required, right? You know, the point you've been denying for two pages?

Quote
But you didn't answered on the question. Do you agree that AC source consumes power from the capacitor? Yes or not?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'consume', but if you mean that the generator gets the power back/consumes the power it delivered before then yes, that's what I've been saying all along.
 
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Offline soldar

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #61 on: August 24, 2019, 08:44:49 pm »
radiolistener, what happens in real life is not under question. It is well understood by engineers and engineers all agree.

Either you are totally wrong about it OR you do understand it and you are using vocabulary, language and explanations which are totally confusing and understood to be wrong. In either case the problem is with you, not with the rest of the world.

All my posts are made with 100% recycled electrons and bare traces of grey matter.
 
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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #62 on: August 24, 2019, 08:51:53 pm »
I'm not sure what you mean by 'consume', but if you mean that the generator gets the power back/consumes the power it delivered before then yes, that's what I've been saying all along.

Yes, I mean the power (which previously is delivered to the capacitor) is consumed back by AC source.

So, we applied some amount of mechanical power to AC generator, it produce some amount of electrical power which is used to charge capacitor. Then capacitor applied this power back to AC generator and it was consumed by AC generator.

So what happens to this power next? Does it affects mechanical rotation of AC generator? Or what happens with this power?

Does this power just disappears? Does it slow down the rotor of AC generator? Does it speed up t he rotor of AC generator?  ;)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 09:11:15 pm by radiolistener »
 

Online radiolistener

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #63 on: August 24, 2019, 09:05:58 pm »
In either case the problem is with you, not with the rest of the world.

You're said that there is no energy loss due to capacitor. But if there is no energy loss, then you're invented perpetuum mobile. I don't believe in perpetuum mobile. And this is why I don't agree with you.

And the rest of the world also don't believe in perpetuum mobile. Therefore do not attribute your opinion to the whole world. That's just your opinion.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #64 on: August 24, 2019, 09:09:52 pm »
If the power is zero, then why would more mechanical energy be required?

Because energy generated with AC generator rotation was accumulated by capactior and then returned back to AC generator. AC generator consumed returned energy to make rotor rotation more hard.

So, if you don't apply more energy, rotor will slow down and stop and AC voltage will drops down to zero. In order to keep AC voltage at 311 Vpk 50 Hz, you're needs to apply more power.


There's a clear gap in your understanding. You haven't considered the fact that the alternator can also work as a motor.

I considered that. But it can works as a motor if you feed it with in-phase AC. Which is not the case for capacitor. Capacitor feeds AC generator with phase shifted AC.

If AC generator rotating clock wise, the capacitor will feed AC generator in such way so it will rotate counter clock wise.
No it won't, the current is leading the voltage, which will be driving the alternator in the same direction.

Quote
Just look, if it works like you say, it will turns into perpetuum mobile, which is not possible. It doesn’t bother you?
In a real machine there are losses, so of course that won't happen. Adding a capacitor will increase the mechanical load on the generator, but not to the same degree as the equivalent resistive load will, which is what you think will happen. The increase in load will be minimal, inline with I2R.

If the alternator, capacitor and wiring had no losses, then it would run forever, but it wouldn't be creating energy from nowhere, just storing it. If a resistive load were connected, it would slow down and stop.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'consume', but if you mean that the generator gets the power back/consumes the power it delivered before then yes, that's what I've been saying all along.

Yes, I mean the power (which previously is delivered to the capacitor) is consumed back by AC source.

So, we applied some amount of mechanical power to AC generator, it produce some amount of electrical power which is used to charge capacitor. Then capacitor applied this power back to AC generator and it was consumed by AC generator.

So what happens to this power next? Does it affects mechanical rotation of AC generator? Or what happens with this power?
Where does the power go when it's applied back to the AC generator?

To simplify things, suppose the alternator is being driven by a motor. We have an old fashioned motor generator set, which we could be using to change the voltage and frequency. The secondary side has a capacitor connected to it. The whole thing is cooled down to the point of superconductivity.

Where are the losses, other than the tiny amount of electromagnetic radiation caused by the currents flowing in the loops of cable?

How does connecting a capacitor which will draw 230mA of current cause the same amount of power dissipated as a resistor with the same impedance? The answer is it doesn't, the capacitor results in no extra losses, other than the tiny increase in electromagnetic radiation.

In either case the problem is with you, not with the rest of the world.

You're said that there is no energy loss due to capacitor. But if there is no energy loss, then you're invented perpetuum mobile. I don't believe in perpetuum mobile. And this is why I don't agree with you.

And the rest of the world also don't believe in perpetuum mobile. Therefore do not attribute your opinion to the whole world. That's just your opinion.
No one has ever implied any perpetual motion.

You seem to be implying the reverse, i.e. energy can be destroyed. Energy doesn't simply disappear. It has to be converted into another form.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 09:12:38 pm by Zero999 »
 

Offline KaneTW

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #65 on: August 24, 2019, 09:14:24 pm »
Radiolistener, are you actually just trolling?

Look at the power graph in your simulations. It has positive power (= power consumed) for one half-period, and negative power (= power returned to the source) for the other. Average power is 0. The energy loss is in resistance, and you can simulate that by adding ~100 milliohms of ESR to the cap. The theoretical circuit, as shown, has zero losses.
 

Online radiolistener

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #66 on: August 24, 2019, 09:23:31 pm »
If the alternator, capacitor and wiring had no losses, then it would run forever, but it wouldn't be creating energy from nowhere, just storing it. If a resistive load were connected, it would slow down and stop.

So if you continue to apply mechanical power to AC generator, it will accumulate power and amplitude on the output will grow up just because we connected capacitor as the load?  :D

Do you talking about DC generator or AC?  :)
 

Online radiolistener

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #67 on: August 24, 2019, 09:49:52 pm »
Look at the power graph in your simulations. It has positive power (= power consumed) for one half-period, and negative power (= power returned to the source) for the other.

Probably you didn't understand what we're talking about. I didn't said that capacitor consumes power. I said that capacitor doesn't consume power. And power graph confirms that.

The discussion is not about if capacitor consumes power or not. The capacitor doesn't consume power. OK?

The discussion is about whether energy was wasted or not. I mean energy which was used for work to transform mechanical energy to capacitor charge and back.

As I understand all agree that there is no power loss in circuit between AC source and capacitor and all agree that AC source consumes power back.

So, the question is what happens with that power next? When it is consumed by AC generator.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 09:55:16 pm by radiolistener »
 

Offline soldar

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #68 on: August 24, 2019, 09:55:50 pm »
In either case the problem is with you, not with the rest of the world.

You're said that there is no energy loss due to capacitor.

No. Read again carefully. I said the problem is with you, not with the capacitor. We all understand what happens and you seem to be the only one who has a problem. The problem is with you. The capacitor knows what it does, we know what it does. You are the one who is confused. maybe we need to start talking about why you are having such a hard time understanding. What kind of feelings do capacitors generate in you? Happiness? Sadness? What is your oldest memory of capacitors? How old were you? Was it a happy memory? How does it relate with the rest of your childhood? etc. Tell us your thoughts. Maybe then we can understand your problem. Or maybe not.
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Online radiolistener

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #69 on: August 24, 2019, 10:08:48 pm »
We all understand what happens

If you understand what happens, then tell what happens with power when it consumed by AC generator?

 

Online Circlotron

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #70 on: August 24, 2019, 10:15:18 pm »
I'm not sure what you mean by 'consume', but if you mean that the generator gets the power back/consumes the power it delivered before then yes, that's what I've been saying all along.

Yes, I mean the power (which previously is delivered to the capacitor) is consumed back by AC source.

So, we applied some amount of mechanical power to AC generator, it produce some amount of electrical power which is used to charge capacitor. Then capacitor applied this power back to AC generator and it was consumed by AC generator.

So what happens to this power next? Does it affects mechanical rotation of AC generator? Or what happens with this power?

Does this power just disappears? Does it slow down the rotor of AC generator? Does it speed up t he rotor of AC generator?  ;)
I have never done the experiment, but I would expect that as the alternator is rotating and the capacitor voltage is increasing as energy is flowing into it, the alternator shaft gets harder to rotate. It is working as an alternator. Then later as the voltage is decreasing and the energy is flowing back to the alternator the alternator is operating like a motor and it would try to rotate ahead of whatever is driving it. It would actually return mechanical power to the gasoline engine flywheel or whatever.

Think of it in familiar mechanical terms. Piston, connecting rod and crankshaft. For the first 90 degrees of crank rotation the piston mass is accelerated and it gains kinetic energy and it needs energy from the outside world to do this. Then in the next 90 degrees of rotation the piston is slowed down and while this is happening it returns the kinetic energy back to the crankshaft and whatever is connected to it. It tries to rotate the crankshaft faster than the crankshaft wants to go. The absolute fact that a connecting rod will stretch in a high speed race engine is proof of this chain of events. Physics being what it is, this comparison of electrical and mechanical is accurate enough for this discussion.
 

Online radiolistener

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #71 on: August 24, 2019, 10:48:15 pm »
Then later as the voltage is decreasing and the energy is flowing back to the alternator the alternator is operating like a motor and it would try to rotate ahead of whatever is driving it. It would actually return mechanical power to the gasoline engine flywheel or whatever.

why ahead? I'm inclined to believe that it will try to rotate back (to slow down). It's hard to believe that capacitor will keep AC alternator rotating for infinite time (with no heat loss).
 

Offline soldar

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #72 on: August 24, 2019, 11:02:13 pm »
I'm inclined to believe that it will try to rotate back (to slow down). It's hard to believe that capacitor will keep AC alternator rotating for infinite time (with no heat loss).

You are inclined to believe wrong. You are being told by everybody. You are wrong. Science is not based on your inclination. Please stop being wrong.
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Online radiolistener

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #73 on: August 24, 2019, 11:16:06 pm »
ok. I'm not familiar with AC alternators. May be that's true.

So, if I understand correctly, capacitive load leads AC alternator to keep rotating. And inductive load leads to slow down. Is it correct?
 

Online Circlotron

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Re: nobody talking about switching PS wasting power on input filter caps?
« Reply #74 on: August 24, 2019, 11:21:37 pm »
An inductor would have the same effect on an alternator.
Ideally, a voltage source alternator with an inductor or a current source alternator with a capacitor, but that is complicating things even further.
 


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