Author Topic: Oscilloscope comes with no ground power cable?  (Read 5244 times)

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Offline soldar

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Re: Oscilloscope comes with no ground power cable?
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2019, 12:36:10 pm »
Those weird "unicorn" wall sockets are actually the superior type. These have a better ground connection, can't get bent and are polarized for live and neutral while being the exact same size.

I agree with this. The "unicorn" pin provides better and more reliable earth contact. And polarization which is good. With regards to polarization Schuko is the exception and I believe pretty much all the rest of modern standards are polarized.

The Schuko plug is very old and was probably the most advanced in its time but now has serious flaws. The earth clips were added later and are not really a good solution. A third, longer pin would have been better. You want the earth contact to make contact before the others.

While Schuko is bulky it offers 16A compared to 10A of the common other systems (AUS, China, NEMA). 10 A at 230 V is generally enough for most applications but it is good to have the extra ampacity. 

It would be interesting to know if round or flat pins are better electrically (my guess is round is better) and which ones are cheaper to produce and more convenient to manufacture.
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Offline janoc

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Re: Oscilloscope comes with no ground power cable?
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2019, 01:25:21 pm »
Eh, don't complain about Schuko - you have likely never seen older Danish or French installations where non-recessed (!) outlets are common and many don't even have a ground connection at all (even the round ones capable of accepting a cable like shown by the OP).

The German "non-unicorn" Schuko on German appliances is annoying because it is an incompatible exception in Europe (most other plugs/outlets mate together, maybe with the exception of Italy and Switzerland/Lichtenstein who use weird variants of the 2 pin plug with an extra ground pin), but I have never heard anyone complaining about the issues you have described.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Oscilloscope comes with no ground power cable?
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2019, 03:04:04 pm »
Well, I wouldn't say I am "complaining". Just commenting on the differences between systems. Schuko design is 100 years old and it is understandable that it is not perfect by today's standards. We still use many designs which are not the best but they have been grandfathered in. If we had to design a new plug system today from scratch we could do much better than Schuko.

I think I am going to design and patent my own superior system :)
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Offline Zbig

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Re: Oscilloscope comes with no ground power cable?
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2019, 03:20:57 pm »
These have a better ground connection, can't get bent and are polarized for live and neutral while being the exact same size.


Don't assume that the fact you're forced to stick the plug in the certain way makes them polarized. Sadly, that's often not the case
 
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Offline janoc

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Re: Oscilloscope comes with no ground power cable?
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2019, 04:17:32 pm »
If we had to design a new plug system today from scratch we could do much better than Schuko.

Sure but that is a purely academic debate. Ain't happening, because the costs would be enormous.

Even though if EU should work on harmonizing something, the crazy amount of different variously incompatible mains plugs, outlets and electrical standards that exists in Europe would be a good start. Not holding my breath for that one happening in my lifetime, though.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Oscilloscope comes with no ground power cable?
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2019, 04:28:33 pm »
If we had to design a new plug system today from scratch we could do much better than Schuko.
When something like this happens, you then have both old and new standards, in result adding even more confusion.

 

Online wraper

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Re: Oscilloscope comes with no ground power cable?
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2019, 04:35:33 pm »
Most use the ground in the sides, but there are a few weird plugs (I think Czech and France uses them) that have a pin sticking out of the wall socket that goes into that hole. Those weird "unicorn" wall sockets are actually the superior type.
These have a better ground connection, can't get bent and are polarized for live and neutral while being the exact same size.

Superior my ass. Recently I was trying to put a plug into such socket. It wasn't going in (with proper orientation), so I pushed a bit harder. Guess what, earth pin was pushed inside the socket and shorted to line thus triggering circuit breaker.
 

Offline Benta

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Re: Oscilloscope comes with no ground power cable?
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2019, 05:59:02 pm »
Most use the ground in the sides, but there are a few weird plugs (I think Czech and France uses them) that have a pin sticking out of the wall socket that goes into that hole. Those weird "unicorn" wall sockets are actually the superior type.
These have a better ground connection, can't get bent and are polarized for live and neutral while being the exact same size.

Superior my ass. Recently I was trying to put a plug into such socket. It wasn't going in (with proper orientation), so I pushed a bit harder. Guess what, earth pin was pushed inside the socket and shorted to line thus triggering circuit breaker.

That has nothing to do with CEE 7/7 as such, but with someone installing cheap, inferior receptacles. A different thing altogether.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Oscilloscope comes with no ground power cable?
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2019, 06:14:05 pm »
That has nothing to do with CEE 7/7 as such, but with someone installing cheap, inferior receptacles. A different thing altogether.
Nope, it has direct relation. Sockets are made from relatively thin plastic compared to solid moulded plugs, especially extension cords. So solid prong sticking out of it asks for trouble. Particular extension cord was not cheap at all.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 06:22:55 pm by wraper »
 

Offline janoc

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Re: Oscilloscope comes with no ground power cable?
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2019, 08:39:39 pm »
That something is expensive has no bearing on quality. E.g. here in France you can buy plugs and outlets ranging from good quality brand names ones (usually Legrand and similar) to utter disasters that are unusable, break at the smallest provocation and are an electrocution/fire hazard in the worst case. And all bear the state certification logo! The price difference is often fairly minimal.

The failed socket you had was poorly made and the pin was either not welded in properly or the weld has failed. Thickness of the outlet plastic has no bearing on it because the ground pin is always supported from behind.

I am from a country that has these outlets with a grounding pin sticking out, here in France these are the rule as well and have never in my life (40 something years) encountered a socket where you could push the pin in while inserting the plug.

If the plug isn't going in properly then either something is deformed or, much more common on recent sockets, the stupid protective shutters in the holes of the outlet don't want to open. I am routinely taking this BS out. If the shutters are in place it can literally take serious pounding and wiggling to insert a plug, even on good quality outlets. If that's the case, do yourself a favor, open the socket and take this nonsense out. You will thank me later. It is only a sliding piece of plastic and a spring.

If someone is worried about kids, there are lockable plastic plugs that can be inserted into the outlets available, preventing a curious kid from messing with an outlet.


See e.g. here:
http://abc-electronique.com/annuaire/montages/cache/1457/muliprise2.jpg

This is a typical, bottom of the barrel, cheap piece of crap extension cord available here. See how is the ground pin welded/riveted to the busbar at the top? And that bar is supported from behind by the other half of the case. Those pins aren't going anywhere, even on this piece of junk.

The photo also shows the protective shutters - the diagonal plastic things with the green covers under the live and neutral bus bars.

Or this one (combo with a switch on the left):

http://leslogesdeserrigny.fr/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/brancher-prise-electrique-avec-sch-ma-lectrique-pour-branchement-interrupteur-prise-idees-et-inter21313425394-avec-brancher-prise-electrique.jpg

See the metal earthing strip? That's what is holding the earth pin. The plastic has no role in it. If you have managed to break the pin off from that thick brass strip, that's not normal.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 09:26:13 pm by janoc »
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Oscilloscope comes with no ground power cable?
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2019, 09:10:08 pm »
- the stupid protective shutters in the holes of the outlets don't want to open. I am routinely taking this BS out.

If the shutters are in place it can literally take serious pounding and wiggling to insert a plug, even on good quality outlets. If that's the case, do yourself a favor, open the socket and take this nonsense out. You will thank me later. It is only a sliding piece of plastic and a spring.

I agree! I hate them with passion!

The problem is many extension cords are built in such way you cannot open them without destroying them. Arghh!
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Offline Benta

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Re: Oscilloscope comes with no ground power cable?
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2019, 09:32:02 pm »
That has nothing to do with CEE 7/7 as such, but with someone installing cheap, inferior receptacles. A different thing altogether.
Nope, it has direct relation. Sockets are made from relatively thin plastic compared to solid moulded plugs, especially extension cords. So solid prong sticking out of it asks for trouble. Particular extension cord was not cheap at all.

I've never experienced anything like this happen, but perhaps you have a local manufacturer using papier-mâché for the receptacles?
 

Online wraper

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Re: Oscilloscope comes with no ground power cable?
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2019, 09:48:07 pm »
The failed socket you had was poorly made and the pin was either not welded in properly or the weld has failed. Thickness of the outlet plastic has no bearing on it because the ground pin is always supported from behind.
Supported from behind by what? 0.5-0.8 mm copper or brass strip at best which holds to plastic by plastic melted through some holes in it.
 

Offline Berni

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Re: Oscilloscope comes with no ground power cable?
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2019, 06:03:17 am »
I have only ever seen these french "unicorn" EU plugs when traveling to places, we use the classic german Schuko here. So i have no idea how reliable and resilient they are in practice, but the overall design looks better to me.

Tho if its a plug pissing contest i do have to admit that the UK plugs are probably the best design, They only thing against them are the bulkiness and how painful it must be to step on one.

At least for 3 phase outlets things are reasonably standardized in Europe with IEC 60309 .Tho over here you will still find the old yugoslavian 3 phase socket(Basically a wider Shukko with defined polarity and extra pins) everywhere in houses built more than 20 years ago.

- the stupid protective shutters in the holes of the outlets don't want to open. I am routinely taking this BS out.

If the shutters are in place it can literally take serious pounding and wiggling to insert a plug, even on good quality outlets. If that's the case, do yourself a favor, open the socket and take this nonsense out. You will thank me later. It is only a sliding piece of plastic and a spring.


Oh yes the child safe shutters are horrible on EU plugs. They keep jamming up and refusing to open, then as you punch the back of the plug to finally force it in that deforms them even more and so they will be even more reluctant to open in the future.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: Oscilloscope comes with no ground power cable?
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2019, 09:04:40 am »
The failed socket you had was poorly made and the pin was either not welded in properly or the weld has failed. Thickness of the outlet plastic has no bearing on it because the ground pin is always supported from behind.
Supported from behind by what? 0.5-0.8 mm copper or brass strip at best which holds to plastic by plastic melted through some holes in it.

Ever tried to push the pin through that metal or plastic? By a bare hand (not a hammer?). Seriously, have you ever opened one of the outlets you are criticizing? Also, I hope you do realize that there are many different models and different constructions. And here you are extrapolating - from a (crappy) sample of one that has likely been abused too (there is nothing to push the pin in with unless the plug isn't mating properly and/or the contacts in the grounding hole are deformed).

If these outlets were so bad and so dangerous (ground pin getting loose and shorting out is certainly a fire/safety hazard!), they would have been forbidden from use decades ago. And I don't see that happening - they are in use in France, Czech republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Poland and elsewhere, with no problems.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 09:17:22 am by janoc »
 
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Online wraper

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Re: Oscilloscope comes with no ground power cable?
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2019, 11:13:39 am »
Ever tried to push the pin through that metal or plastic? By a bare hand (not a hammer?).
Have you read my original complain? :palm:
Quote
Seriously, have you ever opened one of the outlets you are criticizing?
I have the same question for you. I did.
Quote
Also, I hope you do realize that there are many different models and different constructions.
As I've opened them and have seen a construction, I see it as significant concern.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Oscilloscope comes with no ground power cable?
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2019, 01:08:10 pm »
Tho if its a plug pissing contest i do have to admit that the UK plugs are probably the best design, They only thing against them are the bulkiness and how painful it must be to step on one.

They can be used as a throwable weapon if you need to defend yourself from EU bureaucrats or other evil-doers! :)
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Offline Pluscrafter

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Re: Oscilloscope comes with no ground power cable?
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2019, 01:57:45 pm »
And what about swiss plugs?

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Offline janoc

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Re: Oscilloscope comes with no ground power cable?
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2019, 03:05:08 pm »
Ever tried to push the pin through that metal or plastic? By a bare hand (not a hammer?).
Have you read my original complain? :palm:

You mean this?

Superior my ass. Recently I was trying to put a plug into such socket. It wasn't going in (with proper orientation), so I pushed a bit harder. Guess what, earth pin was pushed inside the socket and shorted to line thus triggering circuit breaker.

Because I can't find any other complaint.

Quote
Seriously, have you ever opened one of the outlets you are criticizing?
I have the same question for you. I did.

How many do I need to open to show you that you have got a poorly made product and are making sweeping assumptions from a sample of one?

Quote
Also, I hope you do realize that there are many different models and different constructions.
As I've opened them and have seen a construction, I see it as significant concern.

Really? Heck, there are outlets like these where the "guts" are actually held in a piece of ceramic and no plastic at all! But you have obviously seen them all. Your country doesn't even use these outlets normally (assuming you are residing in Latvia), so I wonder where are you getting them from.  Buy a proper Siemens or Legrand outlet and then criticize.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Oscilloscope comes with no ground power cable?
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2019, 03:21:19 pm »
Ever tried to push the pin through that metal or plastic? By a bare hand (not a hammer?).
Have you read my original complain? :palm:

You mean this?

Superior my ass. Recently I was trying to put a plug into such socket. It wasn't going in (with proper orientation), so I pushed a bit harder. Guess what, earth pin was pushed inside the socket and shorted to line thus triggering circuit breaker.

Because I can't find any other complaint.
Yes, but according to you "a bit harder" = I used hammer. Supposedly you stood behind me and have watched how it happened.
Quote
How many do I need to open to show you that you have got a poorly made product and are making sweeping assumptions from a sample of one?
Broken was sample of one. But I've opened way more than one to see construction in general. With usual Schuko sockets something like this won't happen even if you use hammer.
Quote
Really? Heck, there are outlets like these where the "guts" are actually held in a piece of ceramic and no plastic at all!
If you read more carefully, I was talking mostly about extension cords. Though ceramic won't work well against hammer hit on the prong. BTW ceramic in sockets is rarity nowadays.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 03:29:33 pm by wraper »
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Oscilloscope comes with no ground power cable?
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2019, 05:08:32 pm »
And what about swiss plugs?

The cuckoo clock!

They're like money in the bank.

They don't lose more than five seconds per month.

They were chosen in a referendum.

The overture is William Tell.

They feel like they're made of cheese (that superior comestible).

The proper technical name is "Unus pro omnibus".

You can't canton, acanton or decanton them.

The "earth" connection is called "Alp".

. . .

Ok, OK, I'll see myself out now. :)
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