Setting up a basic electronics lab!

[Grobalo]

Hi,

This is my first post on the forum. I've stumbled upon the EEVBlog 2 weeks ago when I was looking for guides about soldering and test equipment.

Since then I've been lurking around reading the forum and watching Dave's videos. I really like the non-scripted aspect of the blog, especially the repair videos, it's like investigating with Dave

I don't have a huge experience and have limited stuff at the moment: basically a crap 20€ multimeter, a hacked PC power supply and a breadboard I bought a few year ago when I played with microcontrollers.

But this time I'd like to get more serious and set up a basic electronics hobbyist lab for a few projects (mostly microcontroller based, like a building a PC keyboard controller).

Here's my shopping list, I’d like to have your advise on a few items:

1) Soldering station: Hakko FX888-D. Choice was easy, it seems there's a real consensus about this soldering station amongst hobbyists (even on other forums). The only problem is that it's almost impossible to find in Europe, so I ordered from the US...

2) Multimeter: it's not that easy to pick up one. Of course, I've watched the $50 and $100 multimeter reviews, but these are a bit dated now.  What do you recommend around 150€? Maybe I should buy a ~75€ one, and get second one later.

3) Oscilloscope. I’d like to spend less than 1K € unless a more expensive scope is a really excellent value for the price. It seems to me that the Rigol DS2072 (~860€) is recommended most of the time. The DS1074Z seems also nice. I did a quick comparison:
Rigol DS1074Z   544,50€   4 channels   1GSa/s   12Mpts   30,000 wfs/s   7inches diplay
Rigol DS2072   859,10€   2 channels   2GSa/s   14Mpts   50,000 wfs/s   8inches diplay

http://www.silcon.cz/download/DS2000_DataSheet_EN.pdf
http://www.silcon.cz/download/DS1000Z_DataSheet_EN.pdf

Is the Rigol DS2072 the way to go for my budget?

Also, did anyone already buy from http://www.silcon.cz/ ? It seems that the owner is on this forum (Drieg). I’d rather buy it there than from batronix if it’s safe.

4) A bench PSU. I don’t really know what to buy. I’d like to get something decent, with CC and CV. First, I thought I could get a Korad ka3005p but the review is not good.
I can maybe get this PSU for 250€ shipped: Thurlby-Thandar - QL355. TTi has good reputation but I don’t know if it’s worth it, see https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/thurlby-thandar-ql355-power-supply/.

Thanks!

[nanofrog]

1. I have to assume that it's a 120V version, so you'd need a step-down transformer (300W) to go with it.

2. You might want to take a look at the Brymen BM867 (http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm867/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/#). There's info on this one and its big brother, the BM869 in here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/brymen-bm869-short-review/).

3. Between the two you've listed, I'd go for the DS2072. Don't get me wrong, the additional pair of channels is nice, but to get that with better specs, you'd be in the DS4000 series (or a competitor, such as Agilent, and it's considerably more money).

4. At a quick glance, it looks decent. But keep in mind, it's only a single output PSU for your 250EUR. Useful, but it's not uncommon in my experience to need more than one PSU output, so you might want to look at a triple output model (better value IMHO, and saves bench space).

Another suggestion would be to consider looking at used PSU's from well known manufacturers if you can be patient (to get it at a good price). This thread could help with that (shows you what others are using):  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/show-your-favorite-and-mostly-used-benchtop-psu/

You won't need high voltages for the projects you described, so you might want to skip anything that has an output V spec greater than 30V.

[olsenn]

Oscilloscope. I’d like to spend less than 1K € unless a more expensive scope is a really excellent value for the price. It seems to me that the Rigol DS2072 (~860€) is recommended most of the time. The DS1074Z seems also nice. I did a quick comparison:
Rigol DS1074Z   544,50€   4 channels   1GSa/s   12Mpts   30,000 wfs/s   7inches diplay
Rigol DS2072   859,10€   2 channels   2GSa/s   14Mpts   50,000 wfs/s   8inches diplay

I would not buy the DS1074Z unless 4-channels is absolutely neccesary (which it never is by the way). Rigol will soon be coming out with a DS2072A which is an improved version of the DS2072... I would wait for that if I were you. Also, these scopes can be hacked to enable all options for free; so the DS2072A will ultimately get you a 300MHz, 2GSa/s, 50,000wfs/s, 56Mpts, and all decoders enabled. One thing to be careful of with the DS2072A though, is not to overload the input when 50-ohm termination is used.

I don't know how much money you're looking to spend right now, but if I were you, the first thing I'd pick up is a decent bench power supply. I recommend an Instek GPS-2302 (cheaper) or a Rigol DP832 (better).

Start out small, and don't spend a fortune on test equipment and none on resistors/caps/diodes/LEDs/transistors/etc. Test equipment is merely a decoration if you have nothing to test! Futurlec.com and dipmicro.com are both great.

[madshaman]

For the scope, I'd also consider a used Tek TDS220 (or even a 210).

You shouldn't need to pay more than $200-300 for a used one on eBay.

That way you've got a good basic modernish scope that's portable and you're not sinking thousands into a new hobby right away.

Just my two cents.

[madshaman]

P.S. you should be aware of this: http://www.tek.com/service/safety/tds210-tds220

[Grobalo]

1. I have to assume that it's a 120V version, so you'd need a step-down transformer (300W) to go with it.

2. You might want to take a look at the Brymen BM867 (http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm867/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/#). There's info on this one and its big brother, the BM869 in here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/brymen-bm869-short-review/).

3. Between the two you've listed, I'd go for the DS2072. Don't get me wrong, the additional pair of channels is nice, but to get that with better specs, you'd be in the DS4000 series (or a competitor, such as Agilent, and it's considerably more money).

4. At a quick glance, it looks decent. But keep in mind, it's only a single output PSU for your 250EUR. Useful, but it's not uncommon in my experience to need more than one PSU output, so you might want to look at a triple output model (better value IMHO, and saves bench space).

Another suggestion would be to consider looking at used PSU's from well known manufacturers if you can be patient (to get it at a good price). This thread could help with that (shows you what others are using):  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/show-your-favorite-and-mostly-used-benchtop-psu/

You won't need high voltages for the projects you described, so you might want to skip anything that has an output V spec greater than 30V.

1. Actually, I've ordered a step-down transformer on Amazon yesterday, but only 100W. I thought it would be good enough since the Hakko is 70W?

2. After watching the videos, I definitely want a BM867, nice meter for 165EUR delivered! I emailed TME because it is currently out of stock I could get the BM869, but it's more expensive, 220EUR shipped...

3. Yeah, I think I'd go with the DS2072, or probably wait a little bit and get the DS2072-A as olsenn suggested.

4. You're probably right, I'm going to look for a decent triple PSU.

[Grobalo]

I would not buy the DS1074Z unless 4-channels is absolutely neccesary (which it never is by the way). Rigol will soon be coming out with a DS2072A which is an improved version of the DS2072... I would wait for that if I were you. Also, these scopes can be hacked to enable all options for free; so the DS2072A will ultimately get you a 300MHz, 2GSa/s, 50,000wfs/s, 56Mpts, and all decoders enabled. One thing to be careful of with the DS2072A though, is not to overload the input when 50-ohm termination is used.

I don't know how much money you're looking to spend right now, but if I were you, the first thing I'd pick up is a decent bench power supply. I recommend an Instek GPS-2302 (cheaper) or a Rigol DP832 (better).

Start out small, and don't spend a fortune on test equipment and none on resistors/caps/diodes/LEDs/transistors/etc. Test equipment is merely a decoration if you have nothing to test! Futurlec.com and dipmicro.com are both great.

I didn't know about the new DS2000-A series. Actually, it's only visible on the chinese Rigol website. Is there a release date for this new series?
Anyway, I think you're right, I should probably get the oscilloscope last.

About the PSU's you suggested, I can't find anything about Instek GPS-2302 on the web. Did you mean Instek GPS-2303 (double channel, ~330EUR)?
The Rigol DP832 costs 370EUR. Did they fix the overheating problem reported in Dave's video?

And thanks for the component websites, very helpful.

[Grobalo]

For the scope, I'd also consider a used Tek TDS220 (or even a 210).

You shouldn't need to pay more than $200-300 for a used one on eBay.

That way you've got a good basic modernish scope that's portable and you're not sinking thousands into a new hobby right away.

Just my two cents.

Yeah i guess that would be wiser. I might aswell get a really cheap analog scope now and get the DS2072A later.

[grego]

I would not buy the DS1074Z unless 4-channels is absolutely neccesary (which it never is by the way). Rigol will soon be coming out with a DS2072A which is an improved version of the DS2072... I would wait for that if I were you. Also, these scopes can be hacked to enable all options for free; so the DS2072A will ultimately get you a 300MHz, 2GSa/s, 50,000wfs/s, 56Mpts, and all decoders enabled. One thing to be careful of with the DS2072A though, is not to overload the input when 50-ohm termination is used.

I don't know how much money you're looking to spend right now, but if I were you, the first thing I'd pick up is a decent bench power supply. I recommend an Instek GPS-2302 (cheaper) or a Rigol DP832 (better).

Start out small, and don't spend a fortune on test equipment and none on resistors/caps/diodes/LEDs/transistors/etc. Test equipment is merely a decoration if you have nothing to test! Futurlec.com and dipmicro.com are both great.

I didn't know about the new DS2000-A series. Actually, it's only visible on the chinese Rigol website. Is there a release date for this new series?
Anyway, I think you're right, I should probably get the oscilloscope last.

About the PSU's you suggested, I can't find anything about Instek GPS-2302 on the web. Did you mean Instek GPS-2303 (double channel, ~330EUR)?
The Rigol DP832 costs 370EUR. Did they fix the overheating problem reported in Dave's video?

And thanks for the component websites, very helpful.

Yes they did - with new larger heatsinks.  A few of us are waiting for them now.

[Lightages]

You can't go wrong with the Brymens. Yes the BM867 is worth the money and I would not hesitate to recommend it. There are other options such as the BM257 or two of them. Or you could get a BM257 and the PC cable and software and still have money left over to get a Digitek DT4000ZC or DT2843R. The DT4000ZC has  a PC cable and software included, but the DT2843R has TRMS. I have done a video on the DT2843R, and I own a BM869, BM525, and  BM257 in addition. For a budget setup it is hard to not recommend a BM257 and a DT2843R so that you have two meters to do simultaneous measurements and have at least one safe one for more higher energy work.

Get the Rigol DS2072 now so you can hack it to the better specs and keep the options. People think that the newer model might be their attempt to shut down the hacks.

You can't wrong with that Hakko.

If you want a single output power supply, then the Vantek/Caltek DPS3305P is a good buy. iloveelectronics can get them but he is on vacation for a few days. The DPS3305P is fairly accurate out of the box and can be calibrated easily. It is less than $200 shipped probably.

[Electro Fan]

You are getting lots of good advice here.

For what it's worth, I would consider both the Korad and the Rigol PS.  Neither one has been 100% but the indications are that Korad is making progress and when their units work (which I think is most of the time - I realize that isn't a perfect endorsement by an means) - they work well (they have a nice UI, are pretty accurate and can be user calibrated if need be) and they are relatively inexpensive.  The Rigol is much more feature and function rich but considerably larger and more expensive - but still a great value for all that it does.  Presumably Rigol has just about fixed the few reported glitches.  So it's just a matter of feature/function requirements and budget.  Both are worthy of consideration.  I could make a case for one of each.  The Korad for when you need to move a PS around and the Rigol for a main benchtop unit.

On the scope - a used Tektronix or a new Rigol (DS2000 or DS1000Z series) are all good choices.  It's interesting to see people in this thread saying without a doubt the 2000 over the 1000Z; I can easily understand such a preference but (again, just for what it's worth) over in another thread where we are discussing 2 channels vs. 4 channels there are a fair number of forumers that are very sure 4 channel is highly preferreable to 2 channels.  Given the tradeoffs between the 2000 and 1000Z I'm still on that fence and hoping to get off soon.

Good luck with your lab setup.

EF

[Grobalo]

You can't go wrong with the Brymens. Yes the BM867 is worth the money and I would not hesitate to recommend it. There are other options such as the BM257 or two of them. Or you could get a BM257 and the PC cable and software and still have money left over to get a Digitek DT4000ZC or DT2843R. The DT4000ZC has  a PC cable and software included, but the DT2843R has TRMS. I have done a video on the DT2843R, and I own a BM869, BM525, and  BM257 in addition. For a budget setup it is hard to not recommend a BM257 and a DT2843R so that you have two meters to do simultaneous measurements and have at least one safe one for more higher energy work.

Get the Rigol DS2072 now so you can hack it to the better specs and keep the options. People think that the newer model might be their attempt to shut down the hacks.

You can't wrong with that Hakko.

If you want a single output power supply, then the Vantek/Caltek DPS3305P is a good buy. iloveelectronics can get them but he is on vacation for a few days. The DPS3305P is fairly accurate out of the box and can be calibrated easily. It is less than $200 shipped probably.

Ok let's summarize the multimeter options. I think I'll update my first post with all the options discussed here, might be useful to other beginners.

Digitek DT-4000ZC / TekPower TP4000ZC datasheet
- 4000 counts
- PC cable and software included
- reviews: eevblog / youtube mjlorton 1/2 / youtube mjlorton 2/2
- $35 shipped worldwide, super low price (iloveelectronics on ebay)

Digitek DT-2843R datasheet
- 4000 counts
- true RMS
- reviews: eevblog / youtube LightAges
- $40 shipped US (amazon)

Brymen BM257 datasheet
- 6000 counts
- reviews: EEVblog #432 / mjlorton.com
- 110EUR shipped europe (tme.eu)

Brymen BM867 datasheet
- 500000 counts
- reviews: eevblog / youtube mjlorton
- 165EUR shipped europe (tme.eu), incredible value for money

Brymen BM869 datasheet
- 500000 counts
- reviews: EEVblog #432
- 230EUR shipped europe (tme.eu), really small upgrade over the BM867, much lower value for money

Obviously it depends on the budget, but I think the best for me is to go with Brymen BM867 + Digitek DT-2843R (if I can get it in EU).

Thanks for the help!

Btw, the Brymen official website is hilarious: http://www.brymen.com/product-html/index.html

[Lightages]

I agree with your choice, BM867 and DT2843R. I have both (actually BM869) and I can say with these two meters you can do almost anything you an electronics hobbiest would want to do.

The BM869 adds 50% better accuracy, dual temperature measurement, and not much more. If you don't want/need the extra accuracy and dual temp, then no it is not worth the extra money.

[echen1024]

Hi,

This is my first post on the forum. I've stumbled upon the EEVBlog 2 weeks ago when I was looking for guides about soldering and test equipment.

Since then I've been lurking around reading the forum and watching Dave's videos. I really like the non-scripted aspect of the blog, especially the repair videos, it's like investigating with Dave

I don't have a huge experience and have limited stuff at the moment: basically a crap 20€ multimeter, a hacked PC power supply and a breadboard I bought a few year ago when I played with microcontrollers.

But this time I'd like to get more serious and set up a basic electronics hobbyist lab for a few projects (mostly microcontroller based, like a building a PC keyboard controller).

Here's my shopping list, I’d like to have your advise on a few items:

1) Soldering station: Hakko FX888-D. Choice was easy, it seems there's a real consensus about this soldering station amongst hobbyists (even on other forums). The only problem is that it's almost impossible to find in Europe, so I ordered from the US...

2) Multimeter: it's not that easy to pick up one. Of course, I've watched the $50 and $100 multimeter reviews, but these are a bit dated now.  What do you recommend around 150€? Maybe I should buy a ~75€ one, and get second one later.

3) Oscilloscope. I’d like to spend less than 1K € unless a more expensive scope is a really excellent value for the price. It seems to me that the Rigol DS2072 (~860€) is recommended most of the time. The DS1074Z seems also nice. I did a quick comparison:
Rigol DS1074Z   544,50€   4 channels   1GSa/s   12Mpts   30,000 wfs/s   7inches diplay
Rigol DS2072   859,10€   2 channels   2GSa/s   14Mpts   50,000 wfs/s   8inches diplay

http://www.silcon.cz/download/DS2000_DataSheet_EN.pdf
http://www.silcon.cz/download/DS1000Z_DataSheet_EN.pdf

Is the Rigol DS2072 the way to go for my budget?

Also, did anyone already buy from http://www.silcon.cz/ ? It seems that the owner is on this forum (Drieg). I’d rather buy it there than from batronix if it’s safe.

4) A bench PSU. I don’t really know what to buy. I’d like to get something decent, with CC and CV. First, I thought I could get a Korad ka3005p but the review is not good.
I can maybe get this PSU for 250€ shipped: Thurlby-Thandar - QL355. TTi has good reputation but I don’t know if it’s worth it, see https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/thurlby-thandar-ql355-power-supply/.

Thanks!

For a PSU, you might want to try a used Agilent/HP E3610A. Low output voltage range, 10 turn pots, CC/CV, excellent build... the list goes on. Should be less than US 120.

[olsenn]

It's interesting to see people in this thread saying without a doubt the 2000 over the 1000Z; I can easily understand such a preference but (again, just for what it's worth) over in another thread where we are discussing 2 channels vs. 4 channels there are a fair number of forumers that are very sure 4 channel is highly preferreable to 2 channels.  Given the tradeoffs between the 2000 and 1000Z I'm still on that fence and hoping to get off soon.

The thing is, 4-channels are convenient (similar to, but even more so, to having dedicated knobs for each channel) but not neccessary. You can always one of the two probes off one point and stick it somewhere else, and the measurements will still be correct relative to the first channel. If you're doing serial decoding etc, it would be a major pain in the ass to go back and forth each time (depending on the protocol) but generally 2ch should not be a dealbreaker in most cases. With The DS2000-series, the price is only slightly more for the DS2072 than for the entry level DS1000z, and they can be hacked to provide all bells and whistles for free.

My opinion is that if you're just a hobbyist or beginner who's not too serious about electronics, and just needs a basic DSO, the DS1102E is great for $400. If you need more powerful features then the DS2072 (-->DS2202) for $800 is the next logical step up. I can see not wanting to spend $800 when a $400 scope will suffice, but why spend $600? Realistically, the lower noise floor, increased sampling rate and memory, more wfs/s, double the bandwidth, and bigger screen seem to make that extra $200 plunge a no brainer.

[Grobalo]

It's interesting to see people in this thread saying without a doubt the 2000 over the 1000Z; I can easily understand such a preference but (again, just for what it's worth) over in another thread where we are discussing 2 channels vs. 4 channels there are a fair number of forumers that are very sure 4 channel is highly preferreable to 2 channels.  Given the tradeoffs between the 2000 and 1000Z I'm still on that fence and hoping to get off soon.

The thing is, 4-channels are convenient (similar to, but even more so, to having dedicated knobs for each channel) but not neccessary. You can always one of the two probes off one point and stick it somewhere else, and the measurements will still be correct relative to the first channel. If you're doing serial decoding etc, it would be a major pain in the ass to go back and forth each time (depending on the protocol) but generally 2ch should not be a dealbreaker in most cases. With The DS2000-series, the price is only slightly more for the DS2072 than for the entry level DS1000z, and they can be hacked to provide all bells and whistles for free.

My opinion is that if you're just a hobbyist or beginner who's not too serious about electronics, and just needs a basic DSO, the DS1102E is great for $400. If you need more powerful features then the DS2072 (-->DS2202) for $800 is the next logical step up. I can see not wanting to spend $800 when a $400 scope will suffice, but why spend $600? Realistically, the lower noise floor, increased sampling rate and memory, more wfs/s, double the bandwidth, and bigger screen seem to make that extra $200 plunge a no brainer.

Well, I don't know.

You can get a DS1102E ($533) by hacking the DS1052E ($400). But, these are 5 years old. There's a huge difference between the DS1000z/DS2000 on one hand and DS1052E/DS1102E on the other hand (see EEVblog #522 - Rigol DS1000Z Oscilloscope Quick Look EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope.

I'd never buy the $400 DS1102E when I can get a $739 DS1000Z. The later is a huge upgrade over the former.

So in my opinion, your either get the cheapest one ($400 DS1052E), and you upgrade to DS1102E, or you're willing to pay more and have to decide between the  DS1074Z and DS2072. For me, it's actually $739 vs $1168 (+54% more expensive).

BTW, I emailed Drieg at www.silcon.cz about the DS2000A series. He doesn't know when it's going to be available, and he thinks that the DS2072 rev2 and DS2072A have the same hardware.

EDIT: updated the prices according to my area.