Author Topic: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?  (Read 1110 times)

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Online Lord of nothing

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Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« on: February 24, 2019, 02:30:17 pm »
Hi
Maybe in 5 or more Years I would like to build an Plane who can fly Autonomously with <250Kmh (to follow Trains) over some Km. Sure the major problem will be to get legally in the Air but that should not the topic yet. Are there some Projects who use small Pcs like an Pi for steering an Plane? Sure the goal is something who the real Auto Pilot do use 3x Pi (Arudion or how the get called or what ever) who 2x must get the same results ur the Packed, Sequence get throat away if the outside of the parameters.
Before someone argue why not a Quadro Copter? Thats simple I need speed!
Theoretically its simple to use that. There need only some way points to follow and after that the fly "home" where the can land. The rest like fly X m above the Ground can do with different method's like Radar, Laser,...
Are anyone into that stuff?
Thanks
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Online blueskull

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2019, 02:49:52 pm »
Spend a few months on a general aviation license, and rent a Cessna or a Piper.
Or better, get a shrink.

BTW, how's your trolling NATO project went?
 

Online Lord of nothing

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2019, 02:59:57 pm »
Quote
Spend a few months on a general aviation license, and rent a Cessna or a Piper.
Sure and get some Hiliti and make a hole in the Floor to poke a cam trough?
Beside of that get Permission to make some low level flight above an Railway Track where People life...  :palm:

Quote
BTW, how's your trolling NATO project went?
If you donate me some stuff from shenzen I would start some balloons.
I need Condomes, many m of thin metal wire, rice paper and platic foil who is metal coadetd.  >:D
Maybe you can ask the Chinesse Military for some sponsorship?
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Online brucehoult

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2019, 03:19:10 pm »
Quote
Spend a few months on a general aviation license, and rent a Cessna or a Piper.
Sure and get some Hiliti and make a hole in the Floor to poke a cam trough?

Not hard to attach a camera to a wing strut, or just suction cup to the wing for a smaller camera.

Quote
Beside of that get Permission to make some low level flight above an Railway Track where People life...  :palm:

Stay above 500 ft and no permission needed.

In many places it is illegal to fly a drone or model aircraft out of line of sight, and there are also weight limits (20 kg in the UK, 55 lb in the USA) and speed limits (100 mph in the USA).

If it's something you only want to do occasionally the easiest thing is to hire a plane and pilot.
 

Online Lord of nothing

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2019, 03:56:25 pm »
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If it's something you only want to do occasionally the easiest thing is to hire a plane and pilot.
cost 10k per Hour.  :scared: And i dont talk about some professional Heli Cam Pilot thing.
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In many places it is illegal to fly a drone or model aircraft out of line of sight, and there are also weight limits (20 kg in the UK, 55 lb in the USA) and speed limits (100 mph in the USA).
For a Quadro Copter here you need a Pilot Licence (and maybe some other stuff. With Satcom its possible to over watch a Drone over a very long distance.  >:D
There also could use an gigantic Zepelin Shape Balloon who act as an relay.
The US Military use some with a Cam to monitor the surrounding around a Foreign Base. So the idea isnt new.
Quote
Not hard to attach a camera to a wing strut, or just suction cup to the wing for a smaller camera.
Try to get a Pilot to stuck something on there plane with the size of an professional Cam who is not licensed and certified. The replay with:
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Online brucehoult

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2019, 04:56:28 am »
Quote
If it's something you only want to do occasionally the easiest thing is to hire a plane and pilot.
cost 10k per Hour.  :scared:

Rubbish. Not even $1k. Not even close.

In the USA the hire price for a Cessna 172 is something like $120 to $150 an hour, including fuel.

If you're a pilot then you're done.

If you're not a pilot then hiring one costs .. well, the same as hiring any other moderately professionally skilled person does. I'm sure most who didn't have something better to do would be happy to fly you around for $50 an hour. That's about what flight instructors for 172's cost.

$200 an hour, and you're done. Maybe $50 more per flight for landing fees depending on where you are.

Other countries usually cost more, but not ten times more.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2019, 06:20:14 am »
Even if i'm the cheapest dumbass pilot, i will not accept $50/hr. If the plane crash, what?  If i'm dead its ok mission accomplished, but what about family left behind? otherwise if i lose an arm or liver, who's going to pay? anyway op talking about autonomous plane, means fixed wing unmanned drone, i also have a plan but looking at schedule, maybe 10 years at least from now.
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Online beanflying

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2019, 06:38:23 am »
1 - Have you ever flown a high speed model aircraft?
2 - Do you have any idea of the regulations governing autonomous non human guided beyond VLOS flight in your country?
3 - Do you have any idea of the airframe and power plant required to fly a decent camera and lense at those speeds?

Until you have some answers for most if not all of those basic questions it is reasonably pointless discussing an airframe or potential design but short answer is yes it could be done.

Electric F5B & D style aircraft will keep this sort of speed and more for 2-4 minutes so the motor and battery tech is available. Add the drag of a decent camera and lens, double up the batteries and you still may get a maximum of 8 minutes total flight time maybe 10 with a slow cruise home post run.

Nitro options could be made work to fix the duration issue but who wants a 25-30k RPM screaming engine in the air over their heads?

With no background in the basics at least go hire a full sized plane and hang the lens out the window.
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Offline BradC

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2019, 06:59:21 am »
Even if i'm the cheapest dumbass pilot, i will not accept $50/hr.

Hang around any aero club and you'll find a queue of young pilots who'd jump at someone actually *paying* them anything in addition to the plane hire and fuel for them to get their hours up. It won't be a small queue either. Most would do it for nothing if it was all expenses on the aircraft.
 
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Online Lord of nothing

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2019, 10:15:30 am »
Quote
http://www.diamondair.at/de/inhalt/charter-kosten
For an Aircraft with out Pilot and Airport fees.
Quote
Rubbish. Not even $1k. Not even close.
Can you recommend an Company with an Heli who fly up to 250kmh and who have an Build in Cam for Filming?

@beanflying you think about some cute small Hobby Jet I personally think big like a Military Drone.  >:D

So does anyone ever bolt an Dome Camera to an Aircraft?
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Offline Psi

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2019, 10:22:20 am »
Not totally sure what you meant by <250kph, building a RC plane that can fly at 250kph is doable but very hard.
Unless you're planning on following bullet trains i dunno why you need anything like 250kph?
A normal train would be 36-110kph.


A $40 F4 flight controller running iNAV firmware (free) can fly autonomously and follow GPS waypoints.

Range might be an issue following trains, if it doesn't need to go very fast a large wingspan glider with solar panels on the wings might be doable.

« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 10:24:55 am by Psi »
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Online beanflying

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2019, 10:24:10 am »

@beanflying you think about some cute small Hobby Jet I personally think big like a Military Drone.  >:D

So does anyone ever bolt an Dome Camera to an Aircraft?

Don't be to cute or dismissive!

You need to take my advice seriously. I have been playing R/C performance toys for a very long time. Rules will be much the same as below throughout Europe. You are out of VLOS before you turn the key - FAIL.

https://www.uavsystemsinternational.com/drone-laws-by-country/austria-drone-laws-2/

Want to play hardcore military style start at six figures and years of red tape for approvals for what you want.

Having a dream is great but take a large dose of reality first.
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Online Lord of nothing

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2019, 10:50:11 am »
Quote
A normal train would be 36-110kph.
In my Country the max speed is very low:

In Italy the Train goes often faster:  :-[


Quote
A $40 F4 flight controller running iNAV firmware (free) can fly autonomously and follow GPS waypoints.
How does it handle when something happened outside of there parameter? That way I want use 3x Units who must confirm the other 2x or the Data get thrown away to reduce the chance for an error.
Quote
building a RC plane that can fly at 250kph is doable but very hard.
So what is major problem with? Frame, Structure, Wings,...? The good thing with an Autopilot System the can react much fast and can overwatch all parameter at the same time. That mean for example if one of two Engines Vibrate to much, get to hot,... the can immediately abort the flight and land on an designate alternative landing strip (aka Grass) where someone from a Recovery Team wait if there is an emergency landing. An Model who is fly by Hand have much more trouble to over watch all parameter and decide to land before something happening.
Here is a Video where an derailing happened in Vienna.

Swatch how long it take until the Train stop. I am not sure but I think there is no safety gear who check if the Boggy is on the Track or not.  ::)...
If there where any the Train would immediately make an emergency break.
Quote
Range might be an issue following trains
Big Aircraft = room for Fuel
Thats another thing to calculate.
Quote
Want to play hardcore military style start at six figures and years of red tape for approvals for what you want.
In Germany a Guy build an huge A380 Model:

sure the will be lighter but that is the Wing Size I would stick with.
The Wings could made out of a Fiber Material. Maybe Glasfiber or Carbon (depend what the Backing Cost).
Quote
and hang the lens out the window.
Thats not work I need a Dom Camera who is controlled by Software for follow. The must also shock and rubbel profe.
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Offline Psi

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2019, 11:45:52 am »
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In Italy the Train goes often faster:
ok yeah, you're following super high speed trains. Fair enough.

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How does it handle when something happened outside of there parameter? That way I want use 3x Units who must confirm the other 2x or the Data get thrown away to reduce the chance for an error.
I've not looked into majority-rules fail-safe flight controllers for models.
I'm not aware of any iNAV feature to do that. The issue would be the PID controllers and feedback.
Without some careful design you'd likely get compounding differences between the output of each flight controller. Caused by either the fact one has control and the others don't or caused by the fact that all have control and each is detecting the input from the other as an error to be corrected.

You would need to do the majority-rules calculations on the inputs to each flight controller (GPS, Accel, air speed, etc). Only then could you do a majority-rules decision on the outputs of each flight controller and expect them to all be identical (or within a few %).

Quote
So what is major problem with? Frame, Structure, Wings,...? The good thing with an Autopilot System the can react much fast and can overwatch all parameter at the same time. That mean for example if one of two Engines Vibrate to much, get to hot,... the can immediately abort the flight and land on an designate alternative landing strip (aka Grass) where someone from a Recovery Team wait if there is an emergency landing. An Model who is fly by Hand have much more trouble to over watch all parameter and decide to land before something happening.
Yes, to fly at 250kph it needs to be aerodynamic. My delta wing RC plane is quite aerodynamic and it can get up to 150kph on a good day, but the flight time at that speed would be ~3 minutes vs ~25min if flying at 60kph instead.
The power required to fly through the air at 250kph is huge. A lot of the energy is being used just to overcome air resistance.
So not only do you need a very aerodynamic craft but you burn through a massive amount of energy/fuel compared to flying slower.
Electric power wont work for sustained 250kph over many kilometers. It would need to be ICE or gas turbine powered.

Quote
Big Aircraft = room for Fuel
Yes but material strength doesn't scale, a smaller aircraft is stronger for less material needed.
A smaller aircraft can devote more of its mass to fuel vs construction materials and so get longer range.
So you only make it as big as you need to carry the payloads you require.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 11:54:18 am by Psi »
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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2019, 12:07:02 pm »
Quote
Want to play hardcore military style start at six figures and years of red tape for approvals for what you want.
In Germany a Guy build an huge A380 Model:
[youtube]
unfortunately i dont believe thats a 230kmphers. if you want to push that shape into that speed, yeah i guestimate maybe about $1K/month on fuel for daily flight. so its true 6 figures in 100 months.
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Online beanflying

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2019, 12:10:35 pm »
Unless you want to live in the real world stop imagining scenarios that have no basis in fact.

4-5km/minute puts you out of sight in 20 seconds - FACT
Rules state must maintain VLOS. Trying to get to speed and shoot video under this regulation makes it a WOFTAM.

That fat slug replica jet would be lucky to break 200km/hr. Turbines do not equal speed in all cases. In most countries of the world it will require a permit every day it is flown as well as 150-200+m of very good prepared runway.

Based on your last post you have never built any R/C airframes let alone something approaching the standard of what is needed for 250km/hr.

Go hire a fast full sized plane and get a proper camera with a big lens.
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Online brucehoult

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2019, 12:29:12 pm »
Quote
http://www.diamondair.at/de/inhalt/charter-kosten
For an Aircraft with out Pilot and Airport fees.

Yup, a Katana can cruise at 250 km/h.

2.80 euro a a minute, 168 per hour. $190.

As I said, slightly more than the USA, but not much. 25% or 30%. It's not $10k an hour or even remotely like $1k.

Quote
Quote
Rubbish. Not even $1k. Not even close.
Can you recommend an Company with an Heli who fly up to 250kmh and who have an Build in Cam for Filming?

Very few helicopters can achieve 250 km/h -- one that can really *will* cost several thousand an hour. Even the cheapest that cruise at around 175 km/h will cost at least three times more than that Katana.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 12:32:51 pm by brucehoult »
 

Online Lord of nothing

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2019, 12:46:43 pm »
Quote
ok yeah, you're following super high speed trains. Fair enough.
Thats normal speed. The Train goes every 30Min over the New Rail Line.  :-//
Local Trains goes up to 160kmh do to there limited Construction.  :=\
Quote
Without some careful design you'd likely get compounding differences between the output of each flight controller. Caused by either the fact one has control and the others don't or caused by the fact that all have control and each is detecting the input from the other as an error to be corrected.
What did you mean with?
I guess the "real" Auto Pilot use some Bus system where the Data get exchanged.
Quote
You would need to do the majority-rules calculations on the inputs to each flight controller (GPS, Accel, air speed, etc). Only then could you do a majority-rules decision on the outputs of each flight controller and expect them to all be identical (or within a few %).
Sure. We all know the Flight where a Piton Pipe was blocked and the other worked. So the System could decide with one have the more plausible Data and use that to go into an Safty landing on a Grass Area with that.
With Gyroscope the can also decide the status of the Aircraft when a Stall thing happened. Like Airspeed is maybe to low -> Stall = Sensor 2 Wrong Data = More thrust + Sensor 1 -> Safety landing
Quote
The power required to fly through the air at 250kph is huge.
did you talk about props?
I talk about something like that: http://www.jetcat.de/de/productdetails/produkte/jetcat/produkte/hobby/Engines/p220-rxi
Yes I read 0,725L/ Min.  :phew:
Quote
So not only do you need a very aerodynamic craft but you burn through a massive amount of energy/fuel compared to flying slower.
Maxbe something like a https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell_B-1 Style?
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Trying to get to speed and shoot video under this regulation makes it a WOFTAM.
a what?! There are Company who still try to get Permission for Drones to fly Autonomously.
Quote
Go hire a fast full sized plane and get a proper camera with a big lens.
Well that would mean I have to buy one to mount stuff on it...  :popcorn:
Quote
Yup, a Katana can cruise at 250 km/h.
2.80 euro a a minute, 168 per hour. $190.
So do you own one here in Austria and give me Permission to mound a Doom Cam on the Bottom and wire it up?  :=\
Quote
Very few helicopters can achieve 250 km/h -- one that can really *will* cost several thousand an hour. Even the cheapest that cruise at around 175 km/h will cost at least three times more than that Katana.
And we are back again with the ~10k€ for an Heli Cam flight...
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Online beanflying

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2019, 12:51:45 pm »
You clearly know all the solutions and have the logistics covered so none of us are needed. Off you go then  :palm:
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Offline m98

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2019, 01:56:56 pm »
Quote
Not hard to attach a camera to a wing strut, or just suction cup to the wing for a smaller camera.
Try to get a Pilot to stuck something on there plane with the size of an professional Cam who is not licensed and certified.
What do you mean by "professional Cam"? DSLMs can have excellent picture quality while being small and light enough to be easily mounted on a wing strut of a high-wing airplane. There are a lot of certified mounts, but you won't get crucified if you build a reasonably safe mount yourself. If you do it on an ultralight plane, it also is totally legal, as "constructional changes" don't need to be certified.
Just go to your nearest flight club and talk to some people, it won't even cost you €100 per hour.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2019, 02:04:12 pm »
Quote
The power required to fly through the air at 250kph is huge.
did you talk about props?
I talk about something like that: http://www.jetcat.de/de/productdetails/produkte/jetcat/produkte/hobby/Engines/p220-rxiYes I read 0,725L/ Min.  :phew:
measuring with my right angle ruler (thumb and index finger) here, a single of that wont cut the speed at the size and payload you are talking about. maybe you can try 4 or 10 of that 9N thruster. even that, those probably wont be able to lift the plane's + payload weight on their own, so you have to count on your aerodynamics, go find a good simulator when your design is ready. i bought a book with 6 axis math heavy calculation in it, not yet have a single clue.
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2019, 03:12:04 pm »
Speed of turbine RC aircraft is not a problem.  How about 727 Km/hr

« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 05:21:33 pm by rstofer »
 

Online cgroen

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2019, 03:26:20 pm »
measuring with my right angle ruler (thumb and index finger) here, a single of that wont cut the speed at the size and payload you are talking about. maybe you can try 4 or 10 of that 9N thruster. even that, those probably wont be able to lift the plane's + payload weight on their own, so you have to count on your aerodynamics, go find a good simulator when your design is ready. i bought a book with 6 axis math heavy calculation in it, not yet have a single clue.

The 9N is the idle thrust, full power on the P220RXi engine is 220N ;)

I have been building and flying turbine models for the last 10 years, and believe me, this is not something you learn over a weekend ;)
Flying these things with the speeds they go at, takes a long time to master. And mine are "slow movers" in that world doing only 350 km/h or so.

OT: There are so many reasons why this is nuts, go hire a fullsize pilot and plane and go play with that. Or find another hobby....
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 03:28:24 pm by cgroen »
 

Online Nerull

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2019, 03:50:45 pm »
Quote
A normal train would be 36-110kph.
In my Country the max speed is very low:

In Italy the Train goes often faster:  :-[


Quote
A $40 F4 flight controller running iNAV firmware (free) can fly autonomously and follow GPS waypoints.
How does it handle when something happened outside of there parameter? That way I want use 3x Units who must confirm the other 2x or the Data get thrown away to reduce the chance for an error.
Quote
building a RC plane that can fly at 250kph is doable but very hard.
So what is major problem with? Frame, Structure, Wings,...? The good thing with an Autopilot System the can react much fast and can overwatch all parameter at the same time. That mean for example if one of two Engines Vibrate to much, get to hot,... the can immediately abort the flight and land on an designate alternative landing strip (aka Grass) where someone from a Recovery Team wait if there is an emergency landing. An Model who is fly by Hand have much more trouble to over watch all parameter and decide to land before something happening.
Here is a Video where an derailing happened in Vienna.

Swatch how long it take until the Train stop. I am not sure but I think there is no safety gear who check if the Boggy is on the Track or not.  ::)...
If there where any the Train would immediately make an emergency break.
Quote
Range might be an issue following trains
Big Aircraft = room for Fuel
Thats another thing to calculate.
Quote
Want to play hardcore military style start at six figures and years of red tape for approvals for what you want.
In Germany a Guy build an huge A380 Model:

sure the will be lighter but that is the Wing Size I would stick with.
The Wings could made out of a Fiber Material. Maybe Glasfiber or Carbon (depend what the Backing Cost).
Quote
and hang the lens out the window.
Thats not work I need a Dom Camera who is controlled by Software for follow. The must also shock and rubbel profe.

Autopilots with millions to billions of dollars invested in their development still fly planes full of people into the ground. Sticking a pi in an R/C plane is not a magic solution to making it handle anything.

Also that A-380 model probably cost at least 6 figures. Those turbines are a few thousand each. When you crash it because you have no R/C experience you will wish you had hired a real plane.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 04:00:10 pm by Nerull »
 

Online blueskull

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Re: Home Made Aircraft for Video -> what is on the Marked Available?
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2019, 04:27:43 pm »
In Germany a Guy build an huge A380 Model:

sure the will be lighter but that is the Wing Size I would stick with.
The Wings could made out of a Fiber Material. Maybe Glasfiber or Carbon (depend what the Backing Cost).

Let along being not-so-cheap, the maneuver looks like it requires a real pilot's skill.

And more often than not, you might need a license to fly it, and if you fly it commercially, you may also need to certify it.

This is not a quadcopter that can just hover and land anywhere. It will certainly crash unless you have superb skill, and it's not just a rotor blade/battery replacement. It would be a $200k bonfire.

Just so you know, Amazon has probably 100dB more money than you can ever spend on the same project, yet their drone delivery never really "took off".
 


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