Author Topic: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?  (Read 7313 times)

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Offline george graves

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Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« on: October 09, 2016, 10:42:50 am »
I was watching one of Bill Herd's Differential Signaling videos (http://hackaday.com/2016/03/29/when-difference-matters/) - great intro video, although, the scope work didn't really show how it improved things - so I'll just take his word for it!  (paging Dave!)

Anyways....I noticed that he scanned a data sheet that seemed to have an absurdly long and narrow DIP package.  How long is the longest dip package ever made anyways?  Anyone have a pic of a 64 pin narrow dip?  Did they get larger?  I assume that for bonding wires, wider dips were made.

(are those just representations of the chip, and they actually didn't come in DIP format? Either way)


And yes, I realize this thread could take on some phallic over tones so I'll just leave the video here:



« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 10:51:40 am by george graves »
 

Offline bktemp

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Re: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2016, 10:59:49 am »
DIP is typically only used for thru-hole components. The larges ones I have seen without staggered pins are 68000 controllers in DIP64 with 2.54 or 1.778mm pin pitch.

If you include SMD, the longes ones I have are 32bit bus switches made by PERICOM in SOP80.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2016, 11:02:10 am »
I think past 28 pin they become wide DIP packages. I guess the thin ones can't take all the wires up without the risk of collisions.
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Online wraper

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Re: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2016, 11:04:07 am »
None of those on your picture are DIP, all of them are SMD check the datasheet for package drawings. High pin count dip packages have smaller pin pitch, therefore they are not that large actually.
 

Offline bktemp

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Re: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2016, 11:20:07 am »
I think past 28 pin they become wide DIP packages. I guess the thin ones can't take all the wires up without the risk of collisions.
I have some 64k*8 cache SRAMs from a Pentium 1 mainboard in 32pin narrow DIP: W24512A
Cache SRAMs had narrow DIP, slower SRAMs used wide DIP.
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2016, 11:23:13 am »
largest i've seen were old MCUs (68k?) maybe with dual row dip (apparently it's called quadruple in line package, QIP)

like the NEC MCU over here, 60 1.778mm pitch dual row

« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 11:29:16 am by JPortici »
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2016, 11:26:58 am »
I've never seen a 0.3" narrow 40pin DIP package. The physical limit I think is the space to bond out the pins.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2016, 12:08:23 pm »
MC68000 came in a 64 pin wide DIP. Have one in my drawer somewhere. That chip is positively enormous.

This picture should give you an idea of the size:
« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 07:11:37 pm by janoc »
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2016, 12:18:48 pm »
Well the DEC J11 CPU came in a 60 pin DIP, but I guess this is cheating a bit...

Yes, the 68K in wide dip64 is the biggest I've seen too.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 12:24:13 pm by Gyro »
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Offline bktemp

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Re: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2016, 12:27:32 pm »
After some more searching I found the following pin counts for 2.54mm pitch:
Narrow DIP (0.3") seems to go to 32pins, normal DIP (0.6") to 48pins and wide DIP (0.9") to 68 64 pins.
But the largest sizes are unusual, 28, 40, 64 pins are more common.
Wikipedia also list 52 and 64 pins for 0.6" DIP, but I think that is only for 1.778mm pitch like the 68HC000 in my picture.

For the staggered 1.778mm version (QIP) 64pins seems the common upper limit. Maybe there are some larger Russian ics.

By the way: What is the largest non BGA/PGA package? QFP256? QFP 208 is probably the more common maximum size I have seen. 256 pins are typically BGA.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 04:01:49 pm by bktemp »
 

Online Alex Eisenhut

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Re: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2016, 01:20:16 pm »
A contender appears:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Instruments_TMS9900

Though it's just as long as the 68000 I think. Perhaps our friends near the old Soviet Union may have something to add.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2016, 01:35:40 pm »
I know there were quite a few QIL packaged chips with over 120 pins, though there they typically had a 0.05in pitch, and thus would fit into the DIP32 footprint. Mostly used in things like copiers, cash registers and calculators as they could put almost the entire control logic into a single part to cut assembly cost and improve reliability. You still would have a board which was single sided SRBP with 600 wire links of 6 different sizes on it, 10 resistors, a diode and 4 capacitors, but it was only one chip.

The issue IIRC with higher pin counts was making the leadframe, as this was normally made using a sheet of tin plated KOVAR alloy, and this then had the frame punched out using a die set. Had to be wide enough so the resin could bond with the metal, and also had to be self supporting  during manufacture with the chip epoxied to the die paddle and with the bond wires completed.

There were some CERDIP packages made with multiple layers of screen printed traces, used to get 200 plus bond wires out into the package, but those tended to be either Intel processor chips or militare or Aerospace parts, and were not a regular part.

You can buy blank CERDIP packages still that are designed to have a regular SMD or bare die attached into them, then have a lid soldered on, as replacement for no longer produced DIP parts which are currently only available in a SMD or bare die form. some are multichip packages as well, to replace older mask ROM processors with a modern die with no onboard storage, adding on the package an internal flash or EPROM chip ( OTP of course) and glue logic, to make a drop in replacement part for the older unit. Saves having to respin a board and have the system recertified, along with having a non standard spare part unit that means you need to either replace all boards in service and storage, or have 2 different boards and update test procedures and manuals all over.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2016, 02:03:50 pm »
64 pin DIP (68000), 48 pin DIP, 64 & 56 pin shrink-dip, 40 pin DIP for scale.
There are some crazy long-thin SMDs for bus buffers etc.
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Offline amyk

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Re: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2016, 03:21:15 pm »
...and if you go beyond SMD into COG/COF, the bare die of some display controllers have 200+ contacts on a side and are also extremely narrow.

I have been unable to find the elusive 68-pin DIP. Plenty of DIP64, but all the claims of "68 pin DIP" I could find and count the pins on turned out to be DIP64s.
 

Offline bktemp

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Re: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2016, 04:01:14 pm »
...and if you go beyond SMD into COG/COF, the bare die of some display controllers have 200+ contacts on a side and are also extremely narrow.
200 pins is low for COG: Many 480x800 TFT LCDs screens with embedded controller use a single chip: 480*RGB+800+inputs, that's over 2200 pins! Column drivers used in large TFT screens often drive 480 RGB pixels, that's 1440 ouputs, so they have around 2000 pins total! It is really insane how fine the pin pitch is: Something like 15x100um pad size, two staggered rows.

Quote
I have been unable to find the elusive 68-pin DIP. Plenty of DIP64, but all the claims of "68 pin DIP" I could find and count the pins on turned out to be DIP64s.
You are right. There are many pages with pictures and caption DIP68, but if you start counting you end up with 64 pins.
I found some DIP68 sockets but no actual chips. Google has many results for DIP68, but everything ends up being either 64 pins or PLCC68. The actual text in datasheets is often 64 pin DIP, 68 pin PLCC. That's one possible explanation why there are so many results for DIP 68. It could also be a stupid mistake thinking 68000 has 68pins. I found many pages showing a 68000 in "DIP68" package. Or it is a mixup between 48/64pins DIP package and PLCC68 for the same chip.
 

Offline blackbird

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Re: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2016, 12:29:10 pm »
The longest DIP's I've got in my inventory are 64 pins. Okay, I haven't opened any equipment so maybe there is a bigger one hiding somewhere, I just opened some drawers.

 

Offline nfmax

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Re: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2016, 01:46:31 pm »
A long time ago, I was involved with a project using the TRW TDC1007J ADC. This was the first (unclassified) fast 8-bit flash ADC, up to 20 Ms/s. It came in a 64-pin DIL package with an aluminium top plate, which acted as a heatsink. I designed an acquisition controller and fast RAM board to use with it (in 74S series logic!) for what became the first commercially available OTDR, so fasr as I know. April 1981, according to my lab notebook.
 

Offline chris_leyson

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Re: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2016, 03:12:10 pm »
Toshiba TCD2712DG or TCD2713DG linear RGB CCD image sensor, overall length is 105mm, width 0.3 inch. 7500 pixels.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 03:14:58 pm by chris_leyson »
 

Offline CJay

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Re: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2016, 03:30:54 pm »
I think past 28 pin they become wide DIP packages. I guess the thin ones can't take all the wires up without the risk of collisions.
I have some 64k*8 cache SRAMs from a Pentium 1 mainboard in 32pin narrow DIP: W24512A
Cache SRAMs had narrow DIP, slower SRAMs used wide DIP.

Coincidentally I was looking at some of those last week and wondering if the Z80s in the next antistatic box would work with them (I came to the conclusion that they would)
M0UAW
 

Offline bktemp

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Re: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2016, 03:39:15 pm »
I think past 28 pin they become wide DIP packages. I guess the thin ones can't take all the wires up without the risk of collisions.
I have some 64k*8 cache SRAMs from a Pentium 1 mainboard in 32pin narrow DIP: W24512A
Cache SRAMs had narrow DIP, slower SRAMs used wide DIP.

Coincidentally I was looking at some of those last week and wondering if the Z80s in the next antistatic box would work with them (I came to the conclusion that they would)
I used one of them with a 6502 and it didn't work, because the SRAM was too fast! I can't remember exactly, but after subroutine calls the return failed when it tried to read the return address from stack. The hold time was too short, so the 6502 received wrong data.
 

Offline CJay

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Re: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2016, 03:46:00 pm »
I think past 28 pin they become wide DIP packages. I guess the thin ones can't take all the wires up without the risk of collisions.
I have some 64k*8 cache SRAMs from a Pentium 1 mainboard in 32pin narrow DIP: W24512A
Cache SRAMs had narrow DIP, slower SRAMs used wide DIP.

Coincidentally I was looking at some of those last week and wondering if the Z80s in the next antistatic box would work with them (I came to the conclusion that they would)
I used one of them with a 6502 and it didn't work, because the SRAM was too fast! I can't remember exactly, but after subroutine calls the return failed when it tried to read the return address from stack. The hold time was too short, so the 6502 received wrong data.

Oh, now that's interesting albeit a little disappointing.

Will just have to use some of the hundreds of 62256s instead.

And to prod this back on topic, 64 pin DIP like the 68000 is the longest package but something is nagging my ancient memory to say there *might* have been an 80 pin package for some esoteric custom single purpose parts
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Offline djQUAN

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Re: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2016, 04:04:41 pm »
Same here. Biggest I have in the junk bin:
A couple of 64pin DIPs from an Iomega Bernoulli box.
 

Offline setq

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Re: Just for fun: Longest DIP chip ever?
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2016, 04:05:07 pm »
That's some serious girth there as well!
 


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