Author Topic: Question storage batteries  (Read 3967 times)

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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Question storage batteries
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2022, 08:48:43 am »
The curve is flat enough that estimating the State of Charge based on voltage is challenging.  Basically, the open circuit voltage of a Lithium Ion battery is not a very precise indicator of the SoC.

I don't know, I do this for a living and for me, it has never been challenging, but works well and is simple.

Of course, the indication jumps around a bit with load changes.

Coulomb counting is more challenging to get right, but nowadays it usually works well (in laptops etc.) During the first decade or so, problems with severely jumping indications were usual.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Question storage batteries
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2022, 01:04:45 pm »
The curve is flat enough that estimating the State of Charge based on voltage is challenging.  Basically, the open circuit voltage of a Lithium Ion battery is not a very precise indicator of the SoC.

I don't know, I do this for a living and for me, it has never been challenging, but works well and is simple.

Of course, the indication jumps around a bit with load changes.

Coulomb counting is more challenging to get right, but nowadays it usually works well (in laptops etc.) During the first decade or so, problems with severely jumping indications were usual.

What you say is interesting - the voltage can be "good enough for Australia" to estimate the charge level?   

What happens as the battery ages and the cycle count begins to rack up, and it begins to lose capacity - surely you must lose a lot of accuracy as time goes?
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Question storage batteries
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2022, 05:29:14 pm »
The curve is flat enough that estimating the State of Charge based on voltage is challenging.  Basically, the open circuit voltage of a Lithium Ion battery is not a very precise indicator of the SoC.

I don't know, I do this for a living and for me, it has never been challenging, but works well and is simple.

Of course, the indication jumps around a bit with load changes.

Coulomb counting is more challenging to get right, but nowadays it usually works well (in laptops etc.) During the first decade or so, problems with severely jumping indications were usual.

What you say is interesting - the voltage can be "good enough for Australia" to estimate the charge level?   

What happens as the battery ages and the cycle count begins to rack up, and it begins to lose capacity - surely you must lose a lot of accuracy as time goes?

Voltage-based SoC indication adapts automatically to the capacity loss without any action. OTOH, if due to aging internal resistance of the cell increases, indication jumping due to load variations also increases. Voltage-based indication works best for fairly low-current loads (i.e., when under-load voltage is not too far from open-circuit voltage.) Short peaks are not a problem - just filter the reading.

Voltage based measurement is notoriously bad on NiCd, NiMH and lead acid chemistries because of their flatness, and works quite well in Alkaline primary cells and most li-ion chemistries. It would work very poorly with the Silicon Lightworks example cell, but again, I suspect this is a made-up curve (or some special snowflake cell).

Coulomb counting needs to track actual capacity, which requires reset points, which are voltage based anyway; usually full and empty. If battery is not regularly fully charged, coulomb counter drifts, lacking 100% reset point. If battery is not regularly fully discharged, estimate of actual capacity is not updated. If you want to make truly useful coulomb counter (without requiring the user to do full charging/discharging cycles), you need to really incorporate voltage and current measurements all the time, along the curve, so it would be a fusion of integrating charge, and estimating from voltage. I would guess the best "fuel gauge" ICs do this quite decently nowadays.

OTOH, there are also ICs that incorporate "advanced" algorithms without coulomb counting, but still utilize information about voltage, current, and the pre-programmed cell curve. This allows near the accuracy of coulomb counting, without the cumulative error, and without need to fully discharge the cell to estimate actual capacity.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 05:52:19 pm by Siwastaja »
 
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Offline tiago1986Topic starter

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Re: Question storage batteries
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2022, 10:45:27 pm »
Should long term storage of these batteries of mine be at 100% charge or 3.8v?
 

Offline gnif

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Re: Question storage batteries
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2022, 11:29:43 pm »
charged in 3,8v or full 100%?

i charge for 3,8v what self discharge per year?

Should long term storage of these batteries of mine be at 100% charge or 3.8v?

Your question has been answered! What is with this spam?
You're being watched...
 
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Offline tiago1986Topic starter

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Re: Question storage batteries
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2022, 06:00:37 pm »
My doubt was not answered about which voltage drop I need to charge these batteries again so they don't have a shortening of their useful life
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Question storage batteries
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2022, 06:04:08 pm »
You "need" to recharge if they go below 3.0V.

That being said, if they do that on their own, it's only because they are broken anyway. Charging them could be dangerous. So really, if they get below 3.0V on their own, just dispose.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Question storage batteries
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2022, 08:47:48 pm »
Your question has been answered! What is with this spam?
You're being watched...

Reply #3 in the following link will probably help you then... he's been here before, several times.

https://www.electronicspoint.com/forums/threads/electrolytic-capacitor-doubts.295396/#post-1816504
Best Regards, Chris
 
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Offline tiago1986Topic starter

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Re: Question storage batteries
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2022, 01:56:59 pm »
Is it true that the best long term storage of removable lithium and lipo batteries is at voltages between 3.75v - 3.85v? i have xiaomi BM20 and Nokia BP-5L batteries

when the load in storage drops what value of load drop do i need to recharge these batteries again for storage voltage?
 

Offline CaptDon

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Re: Question storage batteries
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2022, 05:45:34 pm »
Good God are you dense in the head???? How many times will you ask the same question??? No one can tell you EXACTLY, it depends on the quality of your batteries. You have asked the same question and been answered dozens of times. Charge them to 3.8 volts. They will last for years, but they obviously won't last as long as your endless rambling thread asking the same question on different forums!!!
Collector and repairer of vintage and not so vintage electronic gadgets and test equipment. What's the difference between a pizza and a musician? A pizza can feed a family of four!! Classically trained guitarist. Sound engineer.
 
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Question storage batteries
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2022, 08:01:34 pm »
He seems to be displaying a Belgian flag now, I'm sure it was Brazil last time!
Best Regards, Chris
 

Online MK14

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Re: Question storage batteries
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2022, 08:06:50 pm »
He seems to be displaying a Belgian flag now, I'm sure it was Brazil last time!

If it is a Belgian IP address, then I assume they are trolling and using a different VPN exit node country.

Alternatively, if it is a Brazilian IP address (still), I assume they are trying to hide the fact they have already been permanently banned from this Forum, on umpteen occasions.

Either way, they are effectively SPAMMING the same or almost identical questions all over the place. Which is usually against the rules.
 


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