Replace broken multimeter

[rhizome]

Hi all,
I need to replace my broken DT-9205b https://www.creatroninc.com/product/9205b-digital-multimeter/ with something that can be used for both small electronics projects (arduino, et) and light household use. Wanting to spend +/- $175-200 CAD.
Dave's recommendations https://inv.n8pjl.ca/watch?v=gh1n_ELmpFI call for 200 mV/ ohms/ mA at the low end of the range but this is difficult to find in more expensive multimeters used for household voltages/ currents. Typically the lower range is 400-600 mV/ ohms/ mA.  The only one I've found that meets this criteria is the Extech 505 which has crappy build quality/ safety.

Is 200 mV/ ohms/ mA needed for arduino / breadboard electronics? Are there any meters in my price range that do this? At this point I'm thinking a cheap DMM for arduino and more expensive unit is the most economical way to go.

[Doctorandus_P]

If you want to make it easy for yourself, just buy a Brymen meter. Quality of the Brymen meters is very good, while their price is reasonable. They are not the cheapest, but the price range is between around EUR 80 and EUR 200. I bought the BM869S myself recently. It is more meter than almost anyone needs, but I wanted a "reference" meter, and I could not justify the budget for a benchtop DMM (or the size of those things).

I would not put too much thought in burden voltage for current measurement myself. If current measurement is really important for you, then build an adapter with an opamp that amplifies the voltage 100x or 1000x. It is a bit of a nuisance to deal with such external adapters, but with those adapters you can also use shorter wiring for the current section, and you can omit the fuse, and both reduce the burden voltage even further. Another option is to put a low voltage shunt resistor directly into your circuit. You can then also put a jumper over the resistor to short it (to see if it makes any difference in your application), and you can use a simple 2 pin 0.1" header with two wires to your DMM to measure the voltage drop over the resistor. This gives the shortest wiring in your current path, a simple (make once) adapter lead, and it makes it easy to use your DMM for something else without disturbing the current in the circuit. My BM869s has a resolution of 10uV and with that you can get a reasonably low burden voltage already (Adjust the shunt resistor value to your current range of interest).

And of course also look at the other DMM functions. For myself I find a data output for my DMM quite important. My long term goal is to make automated measurements, and any DMM I buy myself will have a serial output. (Brymen does not have Bluetooth (yet)). But this is also not an important feature for other persons.

There is also a big thread on this forum that has a spreadsheet with specifications of a lot of DMM's that may be worth reading, but you'd have to find it yourself.

[Majorassburn]

Is 200 mV/ ohms/ mA needed for arduino / breadboard electronics? Are there any meters in my price range that do this? At this point I'm thinking a cheap DMM for arduino and more expensive unit is the most economical way to go.

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805651390055.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.5.21ef18028hbG0m&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa

I can personally attest to the quality and accuracy of this particular meter. Buy one and save hundreds.
It is built well and protected well but I would not recommend that it be used for very high voltage or industrial environments but perfect for what you described you wanted.

[bdunham7]

Is 200 mV/ ohms/ mA needed for arduino / breadboard electronics? Are there any meters in my price range that do this? At this point I'm thinking a cheap DMM for arduino and more expensive unit is the most economical way to go.

I can't see the video, but I'll assume he is warning you about cheap meters that don't have lower ranges, like the Harbor Freight cheapo that only has a 200VAC range and nothing lower or the Fluke 117 that only has a 10A current range.  200.0 mV/ohms/mA (actually 200µA IMO) is an appropriate recommendation for a 2000-count meter, but many meters have more counts, 3200 to 60,000 are common.  So a 600.0mV range on a 6000-count meter is just as good for low level measurements as a 200.0mV range on a 2000 count meter.

Any of the 3 EEVBlog meters would be excellent choices for what you want and 2 of them are in your price range.  But there are many, many more to choose from and for $200CAD you shouldn't have to settle for limited ranges, poor peformance or junk quality.  For multi-purpose hobby usage, I'd try to find a way to stretch into the 121GW.  Or, perhaps a nice, clean used Fluke 27.

[bdunham7]

It is built well and protected well but I would not recommend that it be used for very high voltage or industrial environments but perfect for what you described you wanted.

Protected well?  Without any traditional protection components at all?

[Majorassburn]

It is built well and protected well but I would not recommend that it be used for very high voltage or industrial environments but perfect for what you described you wanted.

Protected well?  Without any traditional protection components at all?

Why not read the OP's requirements again before you attack?  What the hell do you expect for $26???
It's not a Fluke but it will suffice for Arduino & household use which is what he said he wants in his post.

If you don't like my response to HIS stated needs, why don't you address what he wants with SPECIFIC RELEVANT and AVAILABLE recommendations?

And, as if you didn't know, TRADITIONAL protection (whatever that is) costs extra, right? $26 is what this device costs, shipped to the US and probably Canada, too. Get a grip.

[bdunham7]

Why not read the OP's requirements again before you attack?  What the hell do you expect for $26???

I did read the OP's requirements.  He wants something better than the cheap POS he already has that broke and his budget is $200CAD.  He can buy a decent quality meter with good warranty, support and reputation in that price range and I suggested two within his budget and one above.  For $26, I'd expect another cheap POS that is not "well protected", which is exactly what the ZT-219 seems to be.  I wasn't attacking you, I was simply pointing out that your claim that it was "protected well" does not appear to be true.  Perhaps it is otherwise great and a fantastic deal for $26, but it is not "protected well" as far as I can tell.  Whether it needs to be is another discussion.

[rhizome]

Thank you all for your advice and quick response I’m leaning towards the Brymen DMMs given my need for occasional household jobs. If I was only working on low voltage electronics I think the Zoyi would be fine, but I’m a bit leary of sticking its probes into a 120 outlet based on what I’ve read on the EEV blog and the posted video.

I was thinking the BM235+ from welectron.com would do the trick. The EEVblog 121GW and other data logging units look sweet, but may be overkill for my needs (e.g. how much do I need to log data?) However I’ll sleep on it and make a decision in the morning.

Thanks Bdunham7 for the clarification re: counts. Didn’t realize that an increased count is just as good for low level measurements. Thanks also Doctorandus_P for the burden voltage comments, and Majorassburn for the budget suggestion!

[Aldo22]

If I was only working on low voltage electronics I think the Zoyi would be fine, but I’m a bit leary of sticking its probes into a 120 outlet based on what I’ve read on the EEV blog and the posted video.

What exactly do you think happens when you connect the Zoyi or An870 to 120V? Will it explode?
I don't think much will happen to the device or you.
I think a lot is being exaggerated.
The most dangerous thing is still if you accidentally touch the 120/230 volts with your finger somehow.
You don't even need a meter for that. 

[shapirus]

What exactly do you think happens when you connect the Zoyi or An870 to 120V? Will it explode?

It depends. If the leads are plugged into the Volts&COM jacks, then no, it will not. I have tried that with my Richmeters RM303 (not sure what model of Aneng or Zoyi it corresponds to, but it's sold under their names too) -- not just with 120V, but with 230V, and nothing happened: the meter not only survived, but it even displayed a correct value.

However, when you connect it to the wall outlet with the leads plugged into the amp jack... then who knows. I wouldn't dare to test this myself. Don't ask "why would you do that?". It will happen sooner or later. It is not safe to assume that it will not.

As an owner of both BM869s and RM303, I can say that having RM303 or similar as the only meter is not a good idea. As a second meter which is to be used when the main one is used for something else (like measuring current) -- yes, absolutely, great value for the price and very usable. They are cheap and surprisingly accurate. But they lack in the UI department, they do not inspire confidence and trust, and the fact that they have essentially zero input protection disqualifies them from being suitable for anything that's not low voltage.

[bdunham7]

What exactly do you think happens when you connect the Zoyi or An870 to 120V? Will it explode?
I don't think much will happen to the device or you.
I think a lot is being exaggerated.
The most dangerous thing is still if you accidentally touch the 120/230 volts with your finger somehow.
You don't even need a meter for that. 

That's all very true.  The injury risks of using a meter with no transient protection on regular single-phase household mains are low to nonexistent unless you have a probing accident or mistakenly connect the leads to the current jacks and shove the probes into a wall socket.  And even if you did that, the cheap 250V fuses would still just blow without any drama.  I've even done this with an unfused meter and lived to tell about it.  You're not going to be vaporized by an arc flash repairing your toaster or even your air conditioner.

However, none of that excuses the blatantly fraudulent practice of marking these meters with fake CAT ratings.  If you say "this meter is completely unprotected except for some 5-cent fuses but that's okay for what you are using it for including house mains", well fine.  But when you claim it has proper protection circuitry and mark it "CAT IV/600V CATIII/1000V", that's a different story to me and the price is irrelevant.  Yes, many of us will know that you don't get what is advertised for $26, but they're using this to sell the meters to people who don't know better.  Why else would they bother?

[Aldo22]

It depends. If the leads are plugged into the Volts&COM jacks, then no, it will not. I have tried that with my Richmeters RM303 (not sure what model of Aneng or Zoyi it corresponds to, but it's sold under their names too) -- not just with 120V, but with 230V, and nothing happened: the meter not only survived, but it even displayed a correct value.

However, when you connect it to the wall outlet with the leads plugged into the amp jack... then who knows. I wouldn't dare to test this myself. Don't ask "why would you do that?". It will happen sooner or later. It is not safe to assume that it will not.

The proposed meter does not correspond to the RM303.

ZOYI ZT219 / AN870 are larger, more robust, can handle 20A and have longer ceramic fuses.
I once saw a high-energy test with this device in a video (unfortunately I can't find it anymore), with the intention of destroying the DMM, and it didn't explode into a thousand pieces, it was just a little curved.
Handling mains always requires extreme caution, but I don't think the ZOYI ZT219 / AN870 poses any particular danger when occasionally repairing the toaster.
Fiddling with the test leads is much more dangerous.

But yes, it probably doesn't meet the CAT ratings. That's a pity.

P.S. I mean this monster (attached image, compared to the AN8008)

[shapirus]

The proposed meter does not correspond to the RM303.

ZOYI ZT219 / AN870 are larger

Yes.

more robust

If only a little bit.

can handle 20A and have longer ceramic fuses.

Larger fuses yes, but they're ceramic in the RM303 as well.

Otherwise, same piece of crap barest minimum in terms of input protection circuitry.
(I edited the post later, because the "piece of crap" definition should be left for the meters that don't even have ceramic fuses, and sometimes have no fuses at all.)


AN870:




RM303:

[Aldo22]

Otherwise, same piece of crap in terms of input protection circuitry.

Yes, I believe you and I also believe that a $250 multimeter is much better than a $25 multimeter, but now what does that mean for our case?
It's about psychology. "Piece of crap in terms of input protection circuitry." sounds scary for a newbie (I'm a newbie too).

The OP thinks he is gambling with his life and burning down his house if he connects the AN870 to 120V to measure the toaster.
I think we agree that this is very unlikely.

I'm not even sure if the AN870 will actually blow the fuse if I accidentally use the 20A jack (which is unlikely since I always triple check when I'm working on the mains).
Our house has 10A-16A fuses at 230V, the AN870 20A.
Which one will come first? (No, I'm not testing it ;-) )

[shapirus]

Yes, I believe you and I also believe that a $250 multimeter is much better than a $25 multimeter, but now what does that mean for our case?
It's about psychology. "Piece of crap in terms of input protection circuitry." sounds scary for a newbie (I'm a newbie too).

The OP thinks he is gambling with his life and burning down his house if he connects the AN870 to 120V to measure the toaster.
I think we agree that this is very unlikely.

Yes this is unlikely. The problem, however, is that we cannot be certain as to how exactly unlikely it is. Their safety certifications are fake, there is no confidence and trust in these meters, as I wrote earlier, for anything above low voltage. No, they won't blow up when measuring mains voltage. They will likely not blow up when connecting them to mains voltage via the ammeter jacks. Can we be sure about this? No we can't.

Of course that doesn't render these meters useless. My opinion is just that they aren't the best choice for being the only DMM in one's tool kit. As a secondary meter, and for low voltage (and low energy) circuits, yes, fine, why not, as long as the user understands their limitations.

There are a lot of DMMs available in between the $20 meters and top of the line meters with high CAT ratings. If one has to pick just one DMM, then one of Uni-T models (of their better ones), for example, can easily be a very good choice in terms of safety, UI, features, and accuracy.

[Aldo22]

Yes this is unlikely. The problem, however, is that we cannot be certain as to how exactly unlikely it is. Their safety certifications are fake, there is no confidence and trust in these meters, as I wrote earlier, for anything above low voltage. No, they won't blow up when measuring mains voltage. They will likely not blow up when connecting them to mains voltage via the ammeter jacks. Can we be sure about this? No we can't.

Do you know the term “FUD”?
Your post is a masterpiece in this sense.   
No offense. 

[shapirus]

Do you know the term “FUD”?
Your post is a masterpiece in this sense.   
No offense. 

Nah, not applicable really. Uncertainty is an objective factor in this case.

[Aldo22]

Nah, not applicable really. Uncertainty is an objective factor in this case.

That may be the true, but somehow we should try to convey an adequate picture.

I'm sure millions of people are fiddling around with a $3 DMM on mains.
From that point of view, the AN870 is a huge improvement.
I believe that 99.9% of accidents with mains voltage don't happen because of a DMM like the AN870 or better (Brymen, Fluke...), but for reasons that have nothing to do with the multimeter.

Maybe you can turn the argument around and say that it is irresponsible to make people believe that they are safe with a Fluke etc. because most of the dangers do not come from the meter  .

[bdunham7]

If one has to pick just one DMM, then one of Uni-T models (of their better ones), for example, can easily be a very good choice in terms of safety, UI, features, and accuracy.

I have a UT61E that someone sent me after it promptly died (not exploded) when subject to a transient.  It is one of the US-market versions where they simply omit all of the protective devices (MOVs, etc) even though the board is drilled and silkscreened for them.  CAT markings on the front are included.  So even if they do make some meters that actually pass a legitimate certification procedure, they are liars and cheaters.  The problem with dealing with liars and cheaters is that you never know when and where they are going to lie and cheat. 

[BeBuLamar]

Yes, I believe you and I also believe that a $250 multimeter is much better than a $25 multimeter, but now what does that mean for our case?
It's about psychology. "Piece of crap in terms of input protection circuitry." sounds scary for a newbie (I'm a newbie too).

The OP thinks he is gambling with his life and burning down his house if he connects the AN870 to 120V to measure the toaster.
I think we agree that this is very unlikely.

Yes this is unlikely. The problem, however, is that we cannot be certain as to how exactly unlikely it is. Their safety certifications are fake, there is no confidence and trust in these meters, as I wrote earlier, for anything above low voltage. No, they won't blow up when measuring mains voltage. They will likely not blow up when connecting them to mains voltage via the ammeter jacks. Can we be sure about this? No we can't.

Of course that doesn't render these meters useless. My opinion is just that they aren't the best choice for being the only DMM in one's tool kit. As a secondary meter, and for low voltage (and low energy) circuits, yes, fine, why not, as long as the user understands their limitations.

There are a lot of DMMs available in between the $20 meters and top of the line meters with high CAT ratings. If one has to pick just one DMM, then one of Uni-T models (of their better ones), for example, can easily be a very good choice in terms of safety, UI, features, and accuracy.

But are you sure that a top of the line Fluke, Gossen, Yokogawa etc.. won't blow up? Very unlikely but are you sure?

[shapirus]

But are you sure that a top of the line Fluke, Gossen, Yokogawa etc.. won't blow up? Very unlikely but are you sure?

Cat rating certification serves exactly to remove this uncertainty. As long as the certification is not fake, yes, I will be confident enough that the device won't blow up in case of a user error.

[shapirus]

Curiously, a video that would be just as relevant here, was posted today in another topic.

Good info on input protection, certifications etc.

[nightfire]

For household use, when you want to measure voltage on a standard wall outlet, the multimeter should be trustworthy to do this without getting you in danger. boild down to: CAT III and a reputable manufacturer like Brymen, Fluke, Gossen, Hioki etc.
For the budget mentioned, some new Brymen 7xx would fit the bill nicely- I do not know how Canada works regarding Brymen or their Greenlee branded devices, but the budget should cover it.
Maybe some shiny Eevblog 786 multimeter?

Regarding tinkering projects: In my experience, one rarely has to get down to voltage accuracy better than 1 mV to get stuff done. So a 200mV range helps with electronic projects, but it is pointless if the accuracy of the meter itself is crap. (Here: basic accuracy and then the counts...)

For this, and the typical voltages used in Arduino world (USB and around 5 Volts, maybe 12 Volts for peripherals) can still be managed by a 6000 counts DMM, given that it has a good accuracy in the lowest range.

The big question would be: Do you need to measure small  currents in your Arduino projects? This would be the deciding factor to separate the offerings...

[rhizome]

Very interesting video, especially re: plugging into the wrong input jacks that clarified for me earlier thread comments (19:08 mark.)

Also, (17:31 mark) Fluke says DMMs should carry at least 2 independent testing certifications (e.g. UL/ DUV/ TLE) rather simply being designed to meet or conform to standards. I see the BM235+ is UL listed on the data sheet/ front of device, and EEVBlog 121GW is UL certified by ETL as stated on the info page, but I don't see the UL stamp on some Brymen devices such as the BM867s or EEVblog 786. Just conformance statements for CE and/or UL standards.

Is the lack of testing certification an issue for these DMMs?

[Doctorandus_P]

A few years ago I bought a bunch of 1k 1% "metal film" resistors from Ali, and I wondered if they were in spec, so I tried to measure them with my Aneng 8008 which was all the craze back then,  and a bunch of them were out of spec, with deviations of 3% or so. I was ready to give negative feedback and then I thought to repeat the measurement with a real meter, and it turned out that they were all in spec. Then I went back to the aneng, and fiddled a bit with the dial and then suddenly the resistors were in spec too. Because of this I lost all confidence in these cheap meters. I don't want a meter that sometimes works. I also expect this to get worse over time, as the rotary contacts wear or oxidize. But i just gave up upon these meters and don't use them anymore. It was a part of the reason I finally bought a Brymen BM869s.

I also did not watch the fluke video. I don't like fluke. Sure, they probably make good meters, but they are made for a very specific audience (Mostly electricians, who work in CAT IV area's for a living, don't care about price, and just want high quality without headaches.) And I also trust fluke to make half false advertisements that suggest that only their meters would be acceptable for any job. Brymen meters are around 90% of the quality of a fluke, but for half the price or less. Brymen just makes excellent meters for a reasonable price, while fluke attempts to make the best, regardless of cost.

[Aldo22]

A few years ago I bought a bunch of 1k 1% "metal film" resistors from Ali, and I wondered if they were in spec, so I tried to measure them with my Aneng 8008 which was all the craze back then,  and a bunch of them were out of spec, with deviations of 3% or so. I was ready to give negative feedback and then I thought to repeat the measurement with a real meter, and it turned out that they were all in spec. Then I went back to the aneng, and fiddled a bit with the dial and then suddenly the resistors were in spec too.

That's really bad luck.
I've just tried this with my cheapos and a 10k resistor and within their specifications, they all agree.

EDIT: Attached some more cheap meters measuring the same resistor.
As far as I can see, the maximum deviation between all these devices is about 0.4%. So they should all be good enough to roughly judge a 1% resistor.

[bdunham7]

Also, (17:31 mark) Fluke says DMMs should carry at least 2 independent testing certifications (e.g. UL/ DUV/ TLE) rather simply being designed to meet or conform to standards. I see the BM235+ is UL listed on the data sheet/ front of device, and EEVBlog 121GW is UL certified by ETL as stated on the info page, but I don't see the UL stamp on some Brymen devices such as the BM867s or EEVblog 786. Just conformance statements for CE and/or UL standards.

Is the lack of testing certification an issue for these DMMs?

I think I'd be satisfied with one reliable independent certfication.  Fluke probably always gets two because of where they sell their products and thus they can make that claim as a marketing advantage.  AFAIK, UL certification has to be done for each separate model sold even if is just rebadged or derived from another model.  So considering meters that are reduced-feature models derived from others, say the EEVBlog 786 vs Brymen 789 or 867S vs 869S, if the full-featured model passes then Brymen might consider that sufficient validation of their design and not want to spend the money on the full UL testing for the lower models.  IDK if this is actually the case, just speculating as to why some models might not have an actual UL listing.   

[shapirus]

That's really bad luck.
I've just tried this with my cheapos and a 10k resistor and within their specifications, they all agree.

That's until you hit the right spot with the range selector :).

FWIW, my Brymen BM869s also has an occasional, rather infrequent bug, somewhat similar to that: sometimes, when powered on into the VDC mode, it displays "0.0000" and doesn't update the reading regardless of the voltage across the leads. Have to power it off and back on (or just switch the mode to something else and back, don't remember) to fix this. It can be quite confusing when you try to measure a voltage and see all zeroes. However, the value displayed does not fluctuate in the LSD, as it normally would with floating leads, and that allows to spot the issue quickly and realize that it's the meter that's glitching.
I saw somebody mentioning similar, may be the same, issue with their BM869s too.

And yes, it doesn't have Cat rating certifications from two independent labs, mine just has a "UL listed" sticker. I guess that's good enough, but can't argue that having two would be better.

Nothing is flawless, unfortunately. Or fortunately. But either way can't complain for what instruments we can buy today for any given budget, even the lowest.

[Aldo22]

That's really bad luck.
I've just tried this with my cheapos and a 10k resistor and within their specifications, they all agree.

That's until you hit the right spot with the range selector .

Hmmm, I don't know how to do that.
Especially with the clamp meter, which only has a power button. 

[bdunham7]

Nothing is flawless, unfortunately. Or fortunately. But either way can't complain for what instruments we can buy today for any given budget, even the lowest.

The question is are you willing to pay more to get the right answer 99.999% of the time as opposed to 99%.

[Haenk]

I do agree on the Brymen 869S - I have one
Considering the precision and the features, this is really good value for the money.

Considering "rather cheap" mutimeters, that *is* an option, IMHO. If buying, buy a known brand (like from your local hardware store) - very likely, they do care about their brand name and have the meters checked for compliance. For Germany e.g., buying from ALDI or LIDL will get you good (tested) quality and a low price, even with a good set of features.
However, *do not* buy from Aliexpress, Wish or the like - you might buy a "chinese edition" (same model number, but little to no protection).

[Aldo22]

Considering "rather cheap" mutimeters, that *is* an option, IMHO. If buying, buy a known brand (like from your local hardware store) - very likely, they do care about their brand name and have the meters checked for compliance. For Germany e.g., buying from ALDI or LIDL will get you good (tested) quality and a low price, even with a good set of features.
However, *do not* buy from Aliexpress, Wish or the like - you might buy a "chinese edition" (same model number, but little to no protection).

Do you really think that Uni-T or Fluke produce special crap versions for Aliexpress?

On the other hand, the German company Conrad sold e.g. Voltcraft VC-11 with CAT III rating printed on it and pretty much zero input protection (Attachment).
Any Ali-Aneng / Zoyi etc. is better in this respect or at least no worse, if only because they write CAT II on it, as is the case with my new Aneng ST212, for example.

[rhizome]

I finally settled on the BM786 EEVBlog version which arrived yesterday. At $194 CAD (140 USD) (not incl shipping, tax and DHL admin fee) it stays within my $200 CAD budget and was cheaper than going through welectron.
After using a $30 DMM it’s a serious jump in quality - really solid feel to it Still reading the manual and watching a few review videos to get my head around it.

Thanks to all for your input and insights!

[BillyO]

I finally settled on the BM786 EEVBlog version ..

Good choice!  Now there are at least 2 in Canada.

[wizard69]

Some suggestions:

• Buy one of the meters that Dave sells and support EEVBlog.   Seriously Dave offers a good selection and if you want this site to remain free a little support goes a long ways.
• Go to any electronics vendor with a web based retail system and list all of their meters in your price range.    Fairly decent meters start at around $40, but it might pay to go a bit higher to start a search, as at around $80 name brand meters of higher quality become available.   Many meters sit between $80 and $200 but avoid meters that try to sell useless features.
• Finally if you car mostly focused on bench work, you might want to look into the cheaper bench meters that exist today.   For example: XDM1041 Mini  Digital Multimeter from Owon.   These start at around $200.   
  

Unfortunately a good Fluke is above your price range.   However as mentioned there are numerous quality manufactures under $200.     Modern online suppliers make it easy to compare hardware and make sure it meets you needs.    By the way there is a good argument to be careful with your budget and buy two meters as having multiple meters is very useful in the lab.

Beyond that if you want to do any high voltage work, make sure the meter is CAT rated from a credible company.   A meter that actually meets its advertised CAT rating will be safer than one that doesn't.   However if you limited usage to low voltage systems you can skip CAT rated meters.   I'd still suggest having at least one CAT rated meter because temptation is a powerful factor in screw ups.