EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Beginners => Topic started by: mkm on May 26, 2020, 05:01:20 am
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Hey so I know this probably doesn't really belong here but I'm not really sure where to ask.
I have a paranoia about lead and heavy metals (brain function, etc... you could call it OCD) and just noticed a whole bunch of soldering under my kitchen sink. I assumed it was all plastic connections under there or something, but was routing around cause I wanna install a water filter.
Anyway, this is a new building (in Canada), so I'm assuming it must be lead-free solder? What is the solder material likely? I read that lead free is usually high in silver.
There are tiny bits of metal that seem to have dripped off and don't look attached too well.
Anyway, I'm assuming it's all safe and I don't have to worry about touching anything there, but was looking for any extra info.
Also if it matters the stuff is quite shiny, which I've read likely means that it IS lead, however I thought lead solder was banned here.
Thanks!
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Tin, copper, bismuth and silver in varying amounts. The stuff I have for plumbing is tin and about 2% silver.
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Hey so I know this probably doesn't really belong here but I'm not really sure where to ask.
I have a paranoia about lead and heavy metals (brain function, etc... you could call it OCD) and just noticed a whole bunch of soldering under my kitchen sink. I assumed it was all plastic connections under there or something, but was routing around cause I wanna install a water filter.
Anyway, this is a new building (in Canada), so I'm assuming it must be lead-free solder? What is the solder material likely? I read that lead free is usually high in silver.
There are tiny bits of metal that seem to have dripped off and don't look attached too well.
Anyway, I'm assuming it's all safe and I don't have to worry about touching anything there, but was looking for any extra info.
Also if it matters the stuff is quite shiny, which I've read likely means that it IS lead, however I thought lead solder was banned here.
Thanks!
Welcome to the forum.
You don't say what type of piping it is so I presume copper and it's normally braze joined with Sil-Phos:
http://www.silfos.com/EN/Products/SIL-FOS-15.htm (http://www.silfos.com/EN/Products/SIL-FOS-15.htm)
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Thanks for the replies!
It's copper ya. Should I take a picture and post it?
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Copper pipes in Oz are normally "silver soldered" using an oxy acetylene set (or oxy-propane).
It doesn't look shiny.
An older style of connection is "Yorkshire fittings" ------these do use soft solder, but are not legal for new work.
They do look shiny.
It all depends upon what they use in Canada.
You should be able to find out by Googling for "plumbing standards".
That said, leaded solder isn't all that dangerous, as the amount of lead leached out over time is quite small.
In former times, many countries used lead pipes!
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Lead doesn't actually remain shiny for months or years - a fresh surface is shiny, but steadily oxidizes taking on a grayish sheen, eventually becoming almost matte grey in appearance.
It shouldn't be lead, and the only risk of it being lead in a building built after whenever your national legislature introduced a requirement for lead-free plumbing is if a previous owner was a mad DIYer with the wrong materials. However if you want total peace of mind, scrape off one of the loose bits, and rub it over the unglazed side of a white ceramic tile to leave a streak of reasonable area, then test the streak with an ordinary consumer use lead testing kit, available from any good DIY store.
Lead pipes were reasonably safe for domestic use as long as the water supply was hard but not brackish, and no whole-house water softener was fitted. It was recommended to run the kitchen tap for a couple of minutes if it hadn't been used that day, before drawing water for cooking or drinking. They were unsafe in soft, brackish or acid water supply areas.
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I've looked up plumbing standards for Canada and lead pipes are for sure banned, but having trouble finding stuff about the solder, and specifically what solder is used for what parts and what joints.
And hey thanks again.
I'm actually the first owner here. Joints have been soldered for I'd say about 6 months now... still very shiny. More worried about touching stuff under the sink. I guess even if it was lead there wouldn't be any issue with doing that anyway.
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Touching it isn't really a problem, unless you want to wear it as a bracelet. There are many of us who have done soldering as a hobbyist holding the solder in hand without having suffered from it - though we are still mindful of what it is we are handling and tend to take a little extra care. Professional situations would be different with consistent exposure over a long period.
Ingesting it is where it can be a problem - which is why it is suggested to run the water for a bit before use in cooking or drinking in places where the water has sat in contact with leaded parts.
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Lead pipes were reasonably safe for domestic use as long as the water supply was hard but not brackish, and no whole-house water softener was fitted. It was recommended to run the kitchen tap for a couple of minutes if it hadn't been used that day, before drawing water for cooking or drinking. They were unsafe in soft, brackish or acid water supply areas.
That describes my house.
The first draw of the day was 50ppb, which is now above the current legal limit. After drawing water for 5 mins, the lead was undetectable. I've done a quick calculation of the volume of water between my tap and the road, and worked out how long it takes to empty that volume, and use that as a basis for how long I should draw water before using it for drinking or cooking.
It helps that there is plenty of water here, and that my water supply is unmetered :)
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Ya I know I'm being overly paranoid... would just feel better to know that it's not lead. Hopefully silver alloy like some guys above said. I wouldn't even be touching it, but touching stuff around it anyway.
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Ya I know I'm being overly paranoid... would just feel better to know that it's not lead. Hopefully silver alloy like some guys above said. I wouldn't even be touching it, but touching stuff around it anyway.
Since 1990, the Canadian National Plumbing Code has restricted the use of lead solder in new plumbing and in repairs to plumbing for drinking water supplies. Several provinces have also passed legislation limiting the amount of lead in solder used for drinking water supply lines..
If you are concerned about potential elevated lead levels in your home's drinking water, you can contact your municipality's public health inspector or environmental health officer.
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Ya I know I'm being overly paranoid... would just feel better to know that it's not lead. Hopefully silver alloy like some guys above said. I wouldn't even be touching it, but touching stuff around it anyway.
Yes, you're being overly paranoid - bear in mind that lead-tin solder was in use literally for decades in domestic plumbing systems. It is nowhere near as dangerous as the alarmists would have you think. I'm unsure what the requirements are in Canada, but new standards in the US have called for lead free solder since at least the 90s. I'd be unsurprised if Canada didn't have similar regs in place, and if your house was built in the past 20 or so years I'd expect any solder used in the plumbing to be lead free. Beyond not licking it, I wouldn't worry about it.
-Pat
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So, if total peace of mind is worth about $20 to you (assuming you shop around), get a lead test kit and use it as I described. However, in such a new building with negligible risk of lead being present, you'd be much better off stamping out your unjustified paranoia, and concentrating on maintaining a generally healthy lifestyle.
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Hopefully silver alloy like some guys above said.
Whether it is a hazard or not is one story.
The other one is if it contains lead or not.
Scrape off a bit of that joint and try to heat the shavings up to <200degC. If it melts then most likely it is Pb+Sn alloy (40/60) as this is/was the cheapest alloy available.
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..."I have a paranoia about lead and heavy metals (brain function, etc... you could call it OCD) and just noticed a whole bunch of soldering under my kitchen sink."
Looking on the bright side, if it is lead and you use it continually your OCD may go away with time. :-DD
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Depends on all of the pipes. If you are in a new area probably no old pipes. Many water mains in many cities are lead pipes, not just lead soldered. If the water is slightly acidic, it can carry some lead, directly getting it from the old lead pipes. Just like what happened in Flint Mich. Very unlikely to have any problem with any solder jointin copper plumbing. However if you are concerned just run the water for a few sec to get it past the solder joint.
Remember the word plumbing comes from the Latin word plumbum, which is LEAD.
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Plumbing solder does not contain lead. Use of lead containing solder is prohibited by building code.
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Silver solder isn't much different than an amalgam filling.
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Silver solder isn't much different than an amalgam filling.
What?!? Silver solder is an alloy typically made of copper, silver, tin and zinc. Its melting point is usually between 650 and 720* C.
Dental amalgam is ~50% (by weight) elemental mercury, combined just before use with a powdered silver-tin-copper-zinc alloy that sets (at room temperature) about ten minutes after it is mixed, and fully hardens in 10-12 hours.
Other than the color and sharing a few elements, they are almost nothing alike. (And I can't recall ever seeing silver solder used in home plumbing systems in the US, and assume that Canada is similar in this respect. In my experience, silver (hard) solder is used in refrigeration systems, but not for joining household water pipes.)
-Pat
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The problem is your fear isn't rational. The actual exposure of the water to lead in lead soldered copper pipe is extremely small. Basically a tiny ring at each joint. Most new plumbing has been done with lead free solders so I don't see a real concern in new home construction.
Some heavy metals can be dangerous but the key in most cases is that they have to get inside the body in a volume that cause harm. If you are concerned have the water tested. Otherwise you are creating mountains out of mole hills.
Ya I know I'm being overly paranoid... would just feel better to know that it's not lead. Hopefully silver alloy like some guys above said. I wouldn't even be touching it, but touching stuff around it anyway.
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Ya I know I'm being overly paranoid... would just feel better to know that it's not lead. Hopefully silver alloy like some guys above said. I wouldn't even be touching it, but touching stuff around it anyway.
Yes you're being overly paranoid.
No, it's not lead, but it wouldn't matter if it was. The amount of lead that leaches from the old leaded solder into water is negligible.
If this is bothering you to this degree you might consider seeking help from a professional psychologist, conditions like OCD and paranoia can be treated.
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To settle your mind, why don't you get tested? You can test the water or you can test yourself. It's just a simple blood draw. Your family doctor can do it. A lot of municipality (mine included) send out water sample request to make sure there is no lead in your part of water supply.
Don't call water softener company, etc. They promise free testing. They'll always find something and try to scare you to buying their expensive equipment.
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Hey everyone thanks very much for all the replies. I won't make any specific replies to anyone but it has all been helpful. I am making a mountain out of a molehill for sure. The reassurance that it's very likely not lead and even if it was lead that it wouldn't be harmful helps.
Time to move on about this issue... thanks!