Setting Up My Home Lab

[druantia]

Hi EEVblog! 

I have just started learning about electronics and am looking to set up a decent home lab. I would like to share my plans with you, I'm curious about your opinion and suggestions.
About my use case: I want to learn electronics in general and I have some project idea - for example I want to build a soil moisture sensor from scratch. Mainly I'm interested in home/green house automation (with LoRa probably) and electronics in general.
If you think I have overshot or undershot with any of these, or if you have better recommendations, any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
 
Oscilloscope:
- Siglent SDS1204X-E 200MHz Four-Channel Oscilloscope
    - I'm aware that the SDS1104X-E is hackable, but it comes with 100MHz probes, so I'd need to buy four new ones.
      And one question for the scope - should I buy a current probe to it? It seems extremely handy that I can see voltage and current at the same time.

AWG
- Siglent SDG1032X 30MHz
 OR
- Siglent SDG1062X 60MHz

Power Supply:
- Siglent SPD3303X-E Linear DC 3CH (I think this would be enough for me)
 OR
- Siglent SPD3303X Linear DC 3CH

Soldering Station:
- JCID Aixun T3A T245 Handle
  The other soldering I was thinking of is Miniware TS80P, but I rather prefer a proper soldering station.

Multimeter:
- Currently I have quite a cheap multimeter ANENG AN8009 True RMS NCV Digital Multimeter
But I want to buy an extra one - any recommendation here?

[dobsonr741]

Nice and ambitious list. Addresses the glamorous top instruments. However, you’ll  need a lot of supplies, tools, parts before you can use the instruments. Do you have all of those already?

[druantia]

More or less. I've started a course on Udemy, and it included a long list of parts that I should buy to follow along with the course, so I have a good selection of components. I have basic tools but try to avoid the common trap of buying a ton of unnecessary things when starting something new. I will buy the necessary tools only when I really need them.

Btw, what do you think? I'm thinking between two options for AWG and power supply. I'm leaning towards the more expensive equipment because it seems more future-proof. But currently I don't have enough knowledge to tell if I really need the more expensive ones.

[dobsonr741]

One rule of thumb: don’t buy if you do not need it (yet).
One exception: money is not a problem. However, you can go for the higher model,  all the way until money becomes the problem. So we are back to square one - only buy what you really need.

So start doing building electronics, learn as you go, and raise the bar.

[Veteran68]

Siglent is an excellent option for the higher-end hobbyist gear. While you can get away with the bottom-tier brands like Hantek, FNIRSI, and (maybe a little better) Owon for entry level work, I too prefer to buy a bit more quality and features than I need, especially for core functionality like scope, PSU, and DMM. Rigol is another I'd class in that same tier, but I tend to prefer Siglent and they're developing a reputation for having a bit higher quality overall than Rigol.

I have the Siglent 1104X-E (upgraded). Unless you know you're going to be running 200Mhz often, I doubt the probes will be an issue. I'm not at home to look but I want to say my 1104X-E came with 150Mhz rated probes, and I've not driven them that high myself, but I've seen reports of others easily hitting 200Mhz on stock probes. I also have the Rigol DHO1074 12-bit scope upgraded to 200Mhz. Honestly, if you're concerned with future-proofing, I'd consider one of the new entry-level 12-bit options like the Rigol DHO800/900 or DHO1000 if you're buying a scope right now; otherwise be patient as the Siglent 12-bit entry level scopes are right around the corner.

I also have the Siglent 3303X-E upgraded to 3303X. Also the Siglent SDL1020X-E electronic load upgraded to 1030X. For AWG I have the Uni-T 962 which is a great little AWG for the cost, but have been keeping my eye out for a good deal on a SDG2042.

As to DMMs, you should have AT LEAST two, and I'm of the opinion you can never have too many. But then again I have an obsession with collecting DMMs. I'd recommend a good bench DMM. You don't need 6.5+ digits starting out, or even 5.5 digits, but again... future proofing, "buy once, cry once" etc. So if you have the disposable income to afford it, go for it. Otherwise start out on the lower end and treat yourself to an upgrade later when you outgrow it.

[Bud]

For what you want to build you only need a multimeter (which you already have) and a phone charger as a power supply. You do not need an AWG or a scope, let alone 4 channel one.

[pqass]

There's nothing wrong with [gradually] buying quality used equipment.  My only new purchase is a Keysight DSOX1204G 'scope.  The rest were all purchased used (all but the HP 'scope shown were purchased in the last 3 years).  I even repaired a couple of them so they were very inexpensive (I learned a lot from that).  And you can never have enough power supplies; I'm still short a high current switching supply.

However, for many years all I had were a couple of 3.5 digit multimeters, a cheap 40W iron, and various "wall wart", computer, home-made power supplies.

[druantia]

you only need a multimeter (which you already have) and a phone charger

Yep, it's true that I don't want to build complex things. However, it's hard to imagine that with just a multimeter and a phone charger, I'll gain such insight that I could, for example, design the circuit of a capacitive soil moisture sensor. I assume I can simulate most things with good software. But you know, it just feels nice to play with a scope and learn with it.

There's nothing wrong with [gradually] buying quality used equipment.

I agree, I don't want to buy this list at once. And I'm was thinking about used equipment too, but where I live, for some reason there are very little used electronics equipment on the market.

[alligatorblues]

Trying to stock up on precision T&M instruments is pricey. You can always do better buying used instruments, but you need to do research on how to choose wisely. I've saved at least $100,000 purchasing used instruments and standards. I got 3 Fluke 732Bs for $10,000. New, those would have run $33,000. I have 11 6.5-digit meters, 4 Fluke 8846A, 4 8845A, 3 34401A, and 2 3458A, plus a 34420A. All those cost me ~$15,000. New they would have cost ~$32,000. That's a ~$17,000 saving. I have 3 Fluke 732As I got for $3,000 total. Their going for ~$3000 ea now.

  I have 2 quad Sorensen PSU'S 15-4 each psu. With 4 of them in one unit, you can get 60V@4A, 16A@15V, and everything in between.

They're accurate to < 1.0mV, no matter how long you run them. Those go for $4800ea. I got 2 for $600, so that's a $9000 savings. I have a Lambda 0-60V 0-15A 900W psu I picked up for $100. Those went for about $40,000. So, that's a $39,900 saving. I've got 2 multiplexers by Keithley with relay cards and fast switching transistor cards. I got those for about $700. New that setup would have run $2500. 

And I have ~15 Fluke handheld DMMs from the 77 to the 87-V MAX. I've got boxes full of test leads of every type. I've got shelving units full of passives, transistors, diodes, thyristors, triacs, regulators, PMIE voltage references, op amps, proto board, breadboarding kits, spools of wire from 26awg telco to 10awg3 seoow, transistor testers, cap testers, a few USB DSOs, nuts and bolts, copper plate and bar, polycarbonate sheets, old broken instruments, heat sinks, fans, thermoelectric chips, LED lights and psus, boxes of old wall warts, boxes of salvage PCBs, boxes of scrap metal, taps and dies, GPIB<>USB adapters, gpib cables and PCIe cards, boxes filled with every type of adapter and cables the obligatory shop sound system,

A 3000W UPS with external add-on battery cabinet I got for $800. Those go for $5500 from the manufacturer, and both items were new and sealed. I've got 2 PCs I made, 3 laptops, 3 tablets, 3 smart phones, all purchased used at < 1/2 of retail.

But if you think you can do better with Chinese junk, have at it. None of my stuff breaks, and I know I'm getting an accurate reading.

One word of advice: don't waste time designing and building what you can purchase for $20. Don't use Auduino. Find a niche in the market, and design a prototype for that. This shit about building a DC PSU, or building stuff from Raspberry Pi and Auduino is going to take all your time and offer nothing in return.

I design and build what the world needs. i have a design for a 1.0 Ohm +(-) 10ppm reference resistor that sells for $635. But I'm an engineer, so I have a little head start. Invention is 10% inspiration, and the other half is perspiration.

There was a guy named W.C. Fields who once said, "I fell in love with a gorgeous blonde. She drove me to drink. For that I am forever indebted to her!" He also said, "I spent half my money on booze and women. The other half I wasted."   

[bdunham7]

How much space do you have?  This can often be an issue when selecting equipment because if you have a great need for maximum function per cubic mm, then the option of buying multiple, older, used boat anchors is not available to you.  For example, I don't have one of those Siglent PSUs but I have multiple units that do a better job overall but take up 5X the space.  If you are space-confined, have a look at the GWInstek GPP-4323 for a combined 4 channel programmable PSU and basic DC load unit.

One thing about the scope--the PP510 probes that come with the SDS1104X-E aren't quite as physically nice as the PP215 that come with the SDS1204X-E, but they perform just fine and there's really no reason to pay the extra money for the so-called 200MHz version.  Buy the SDS1104X-E and save your money for some 100X probes, a current probe or a differential probe.

For another DMM (some say you can't have too many and then prove themselves wrong) do you want a handheld or bench meter?  Since you are in the EU, probably your first choice value-wise for a handheld is Brymen and there's endless discussion of this issue here.  However, a low-end bench meter can be much handier at .... a bench.  I'd recommend a better-than-low-end bench meter, but that's a budget choice you have to make.

[pqass]

This shit about building a DC PSU, or building stuff from Raspberry Pi and Auduino is going to take all your time and offer nothing in return.

I design and build what the world needs. i have a design for a 1.0 Ohm ...

Maybe OP just wants to learn by doing; doesn't care that he's re-inventing the wheel.

Although, I bet he can sell more Arduino/RaspPi hats then you can sell 1 Ohm resistors.
EE is the wrong business to make any money in.

[druantia]

I'd recommend a better-than-low-end bench meter, but that's a budget choice you have to make.

That's a great advice, I already thought about bench meter. I'll look around!

But if you think you can do better with Chinese junk, have at it. None of my stuff breaks, and I know I'm getting an accurate reading.

For my needs, it seems more than enough. It's an interesting contrast though, going from 'just use a multimeter and a phone charger' to 'invest in precision T&M and Fluke instruments.'"
So what you are saying it implies that these Siglent tools break often and are inaccurate. Do they? Because based on my reading, it is quite recommended scope among hobbyists.
Of course if I can justify it, I can spend more money on my lab, I just try to be reasonable. Sure I can buy Fluke and precision T&M instruments, but I cannot imagine I will take advantage of it's capabilities. So my question is, do you really think I need those tools for my use case? (even if it's cheaper in used condition)
If later I really need those expensive instruments, I can always sell it and upgrade for a more expensive one. But for learning purposes and simpler home projects, it seems a good fit to me.

One word of advice: don't waste time designing and building what you can purchase for $20

I design and build what the world needs

This would be more of a learning project, not necessarily because I want money from it. And speaking of junk, I have a feeling that 99% of those sensors are really Chinese junk.
Well, for now I rather want to build something I need, because it is just a hobby for me beside software engineering. Of course this can change later when I feel more comfortable in this field.

[Veteran68]

Don't listen to the snobs. Every profession and hobby has it's elitists who look down their nose at anything that isn't the very best, top-of-line stuff that THEY use.

Siglent is not "Chinese junk" any more than an iPhone or MacBook Pro is "Chinese junk." Might not be your preferred technology or brand, but it certainly isn't junk. Actually IMO, in the category of non-professional or hobby use, Siglent probably is the top of the line brand. And they certainly do make products that serve professionals, unless only hobbyists are out there spending $30K on scopes and SAs. And while I personally wouldn't rate Rigol as high as Siglent in most areas (they have a lot to catch up with on QC for sure), they're not "junk" either. In fact many of the very bottom tier brands have their value, it just gets harder to distinguish them within all the other junk noise.

It's an overused and tiresome trope to claim that anything made in China is junk, or that the only non-junk products made in China come from American/Western brands like Apple. I get that people have some strongly-held prejudices against China, whether for ideology, human rights, or other socio-political reasons, but the US is just as capable of producing shit products as China is. China can just do it at higher scale and lower costs when they want to.

As a company having products made in China, you pay for as much quality as you want. That's why identical looking products from different brands that come from the same factory -- literally off the same manufacturing line -- can vary wildly in terms of quality. You also see this in American brands and factories. Carrier and Bryant HVAC equipment come off the same lines but at different price points, with interchangeable parts. Same with John Deere and MTD lawn equipment. That doesn't mean they all share the same quality control, the point is that where something is made seldom has anything to do with its quality. There's so much more to it than that.

Even when you're talking about truly bottom-tier quality T&E, it can certainly has its place especially for people starting out and learning. If it weren't for the likes of Hantek, FNIRSI, Owon, and Uni-T, likely millions of people wouldn't be introduced to electronics or have the means to learn and work at home, or start their small business.

/soapbox

[MarkT]

Don't listen to the snobs. Every profession and hobby has it's elitists who look down their nose at anything that isn't the very best, top-of-line stuff that THEY use.

Absolutely, old stuff is bulky, very heavy, uses loads of power, and there's no accuracy advantage unless regularly calibrated - especially as we are talking about a whole load of aging electrolytics typically - second hand purchases can save a lot of money, but some of the new stuff undercuts even secondhand prices and all the electrolytic caps are new...  Often modern equipment has a single PCB and runs cool.  There's no contest for instance with RF spectrum analyzers, modern prosumer one's have FFT and sweep mode and extremely narrow RBW, firmware updates, comes calibrated, large colour displays, and a waranty, and are very portable. Oh and quiet fans too...

But the size and weight argument is what wins it for me - old boat anchors just take up so much room and require stout benches/shelving to take the weight.

[Wallace Gasiewicz]

You mean that I have gone too far with old equipment? Just because I have more than 1000 lbs of equipment in one room?   HA !! 

Seriously old equipment like the HP stuff is big and heavy. Then you need carts for it (more Expense) and lots of electrical plugs for your equipment.  You do need to make sure it is close to calibration, More expense. Down the Rabbit Hole.  But I use it all the time.

Consider having a space where you can put in more than twice the amount of electrical outlets you think will need.

Good Multimeter like a Fluke or Brymen, but one with fewer options. Then get a component analyzer like a BSIDE.  Very Very useful and cheap.  Various banana connectors with different alligator and hook connectors...edge power connectors for boards, consider making them yourself, you then have what you need. Use good components, especially good banana connectors and flexible Silicone wire.  Lots of reviews about multimeters elsewhere on this forum.

Definitely a linear PS, Triple is nice. Newer ones have USB power, very convenient.. None of the PS I have have very accurate meters. I use  a multimeter to check voltages when they are critical.

Read about soldering stations in "Other Equipment"  Lots of opinions.  A real consideration here is the availability and cost of tips. 
I don't have one but this seems good:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/1800/ 

Start with this stuff and make up your mind if you want a Scope or a Spectrum Analyzer next. If you are going to do any RF these days you will benefit from higher MHz equipment.   
When you get started, you will know better what you need and want.

About scope probes..  The ones I have bought from China are better than the original probes that came with my  Agilent Infinium.  They are much less expensive also. Just make sure they are the correct probes for your scope.  All probes come from China anyway.   

The better modern Hobby Grade stuff like Sigilent is better than anything any hobbyist could have hoped to buy even 20 yrs ago.

[bdunham7]

So what you are saying it implies that these Siglent tools break often and are inaccurate. Do they? Because based on my reading, it is quite recommended scope among hobbyists.

Siglent instruments do have their various issues (as do other brands) but despite those flaws still represent a good value for most people.  Of course if one of those flaws happens to be a critical issue with your particular use case, then the value proposition is much worse.  Rather than assigning "good" or "bad" labels, it is more productive to learn what those specific flaws or characteristics are so you can ignore them or deal with them as the case may be.

Not all older instruments are oversized boat anchors and some of them can be excellent tools for the money.  And if you do have space, even the monsters can provide some capabilities that would be prohibitively expensive otherwise.  However, the availability of these things may be much less in your area. 

[watchmaker]

Druantia,

I just went thru this (Still?).  The observation about supplies is on the button.  I wound up buying some prepackaged multicolor rolls of 20, 18 and and 14 AWG wire to make patch cords and leads.  Then there are the hook clips and safety banana connectors.  An ESD bench covering offers more than ESD protection.  It is very easy to sweep off and keep clean.

Given you are in Hungary, your access to used test equipment likely is more limited than for those of us in the US.  The scope you chose is the same I chose. Here in the US you can pick up a FLuke 8840AF or HP 3478A for under $100 and be pretty sure it will be dead on.  If you can find them there, I can recommend them.  More than enough precision.

Have you looked at the Diligent Analog Discovery 2 or 3??  These are used in many undergrad programs and provide a DMM, function generator, 2 power supplies and a lot more.  For about $350USD.  All you need is a laptop. 

As for learning materials, I am using the Real Analog You tube series plus various texts.  I have been very impressed with the Boylestad course on Introductory Circuit Analysis and the accompanying Lab Manual.  It could be that I came to this author after Real Analog and Dave's EEVBLOG videos on elementary electronics, but is helped to clear up some things.  Also, some of the approaches provide only simple exercises for ckt analysis and Boylestad takes it further.

I even found the Heatkit Education series to be of benefit. 

I am now going to look at Udemy.  Thanks!

Being without an instructor is not really a problem.  I breadboard the problems to check my answers.

The one that threw me was the need to relearn matrix math to solve the ckt equations.  I knew I was going to have to relearn differential calculus, but matrix-based approaches are powerful.  And the tools to use it (TI 89, Mathlab) are pretty easy to use.

To that end, you likely will want at least two DMMs so you can check voltage and current at the same time.  You could likely get by for some time with your current meter and the Analog Discovery since the courses use low voltage ckts with maybe 1000mA of current.  Precision to 3 decimal points is all you really need.

Task lighting and magnification are pretty important.  I found a 3x GLASS magnifier light on Amazon for about $75 USD.  I have several microscopes for watchmaking and machining, but this is all I need to read values and some soldering.

About soldering:  Look at the Pinecil soldering iron.  As a watchmaker I like toys.  I have an Ersa but I bought the Pinecil out of curiosity (about $50USD delivered).  It is powered by USB C PD which is a standard that provides up to 100 Watts.  You do need to buy a charger though, I cannot run it off my laptop.

But, it seems to provide enough power for my soldering (I still use Kester 64/36 with 2.2%rosin flux) and it works as well as my Ersa.  The sleep and wake features work very well.

What else.  Oh, those $20 component testers that tell you which end of the diode is up and whether you are looking at an inductor or resistor are handy.  But I would recommend you look at the ST 42 thread on this blog and get one of those.  Does everything the component tester does except tell you about transistor leads.

However, it is in the form of a tweezer and it sure beats using a DMM to verify the resistors you pick.

And people are right about space.  I originally thought I had enough, but I was told by someone here I was well short.  And he was right on the button.  I am still in a temporary setup until I settle on a configuration but I will eventually move my vertical mill and take over that space.

By the time you have your breadboard, test equipment, supplies, computer, books and calculator, you have easily taken up 3 to 4 square meters.

OH!  Plastic cabinets of drawers!

Hope this is useful.

[baldurn]

Don't buy SDG1062X because SDG1032X can trivially be upgraded by key generator and it is the same instrument.

Wait a few weeks for the 12 bit entry level Siglent to be released instead of buying SDS1204X-E now. We don't know the pricing yet, but why risk being sorry about your purchase?

You can probably get any multimeter and be fine. But if you are going for something good without being insanely expensive, I see the Brymen BM869S being recommended as the top pick for hobby.

Other instruments that you might want later on:

LCR meter (DER-EE DE-5000)
Component tester
Logic analyzer

[SuzyC]

Soil Moisture Detector:   Buy the cheapest ($5) volt-ohm meter (DMM) at a local hardware or electronics shop.
Take it home, turn in on  and set the dial to read resistance.(Set the ohms (resistance) scale to X1k range.)
Insert the probe tips into the soil some distance apart and take a reading. 

Low resistance:  Soil is quite wet.

Medium resistance: Soil is drying out.

High or open circuit resistance:   Soil is very dry.

Design Done!


Any other project ideas?

[themadhippy]

Soil Moisture Detector:   Buy the cheapest ($5) volt-ohm meter (DMM)

sounds a bit complex,wots wrong with sticking one of the ten measuring devices most of us have got on the end  of out hands into the mud

[SuzyC]

Gets your fingers dirty!

[Wallace Gasiewicz]

Watchmaker brought up an important point, magnification. I don't know if these are available in your area
I use an Elmo Document Camera.  There are some used on ebay. Apparently they are used in schools and are replaced by newer models from time to time. New they are quite expensive, but used are quite affordable. I bought mine for $15 and then bought an old monitor. This is not perfect but gives a nice distance to the part and enables soldering. 
There are various configurations of these things that use different monitor connections ( Some HDMI ) and ones with a "stage" for the document (or PC board) and ones that are free standing. Take a look around ebay or other used equipment sites.

[druantia]

Task lighting and magnification are pretty important.

I thought about this one too - I saw these on aliexpress, I will buy something similar.

Have you looked at the Diligent Analog Discovery 2 or 3??

I've just read about this, I didn't know this was a thing. I assume it is more of an educational device - it seems really well made. Its software and the various visualizations could help a lot especially for beginners. I'm quite thinking about getting one. I mean, this device seems helpful even if I already have a decent scope.
Speaking of learning - I see this book often recommended, I might buy it The Art of Electronics

I'll take a look on the other sources too you mentioned. If you are interested, I started this course on udemy:
Crash Course Electronics and PCB Design

Don't buy SDG1062X because SDG1032X can trivially be upgraded by key generator and it is the same instrument.

I wonder, can I upgrade SPD3303X-E to SPD3303X in the same way? It not, what's you opinion about these two? PSU is something I need early on, but I don't know yet whether I need the extra resolution or not

Wait a few weeks for the 12 bit entry level Siglent to be released instead of buying SDS1204X-E now.

Great info!!  I'll definitely wait for the prices. Is there any release date yet?

I feel like my original plan already refined a lot. So thanks for all of this great advice, I'm still processing it. 

[Veteran68]

I wonder, can I upgrade SPD3303X-E to SPD3303X in the same way? It not, what's you opinion about these two? PSU is something I need early on, but I don't know yet whether I need the extra resolution or not

Yes, the 3303X-E can be upgraded to the 3303X, assuming it's not been fixed with a newer hw/fw revision (there have been reports of some new models of Siglent gear that don't work with the old "upgrade" methods). There is a thread on doing that.

[armandine2]

 If you are interested, I started this course on udemy:
Crash Course Electronics and PCB Design

That is of interest - hopefully you can report back on how that goes and how it met your needs. 

[Wil_Bloodworth]

I too am on the same parallel path as you and have collected quite a lot of gear since the end of October (scopes included).  However, I'm not sure it was a great idea for me (or anyone?) to have purchased all of the gear upfront.  My learning of electronics hasn't been the Udemy / Courses / whatever variety but rather through YouTube and old electronics books... and to be brutally honest, I'm at the point now where I just want to sell everything and find another hobby with less frustration and one that is more rewarding.  Unfortunately, electronics has not been rewarding at all (due entirely to my ignorance and lack of real-world experience).  For me, it has been the complete opposite and depressing.

Your journey may be completely different and I hope that it is but don't get caught up in all the "toys" or the mindset of, "I can do X with this piece of gear" until you are sure this is the hobby for you and that you will find enjoyment from it.

- Wil

[xrunner]

... and to be brutally honest, I'm at the point now where I just want to sell everything and find another hobby with less frustration and one that is more rewarding.  Unfortunately, electronics has not been rewarding at all (due entirely to my ignorance and lack of real-world experience).  For me, it has been the complete opposite and depressing.

Can I ask what part of it is frustrating you? Maybe we can help you.

[Wil_Bloodworth]

Can I ask what part of it is frustrating you? Maybe we can help you.

What is frustrating for me is not knowing how to figure out what is wrong when something is supposed to be working and it is not.  Example:  I got an EICO 145 signal tracer at an estate sale and it was in bad shape so I decided to proceed to restore it.  This was a "kit" mind you so it is supposed to be something a 9 year-old child can put together.  Well, I've followed all of the schematics and replaced everything that needed to be replaced but all that happens when I turn it on is the transformer hums. I've tried going over the diagram again and again but I don't see anything obvious.  I've measured the voltages coming into the transformer and out of the transformer and everything "seems" to be valid but I can't even get the filaments or the case lamp to light up.  After I hook all the leads from the transformer to the appropriate places, nothing seems to work and now I'm ready to completely take the entire thing apart and start over from scratch... or just throw it in the trash and be done with it.

That's just a single example and I have a few.  Anytime I run into a similar problem on a piece of equipment, I'm completely stuck because I have no idea how to proceed.  Therefore, I end up putting it on the shelf, walking away, and go kick the dog. At this point, I'm pretty much ready to just take all of the things off the shelf and throw them away since I'm at a dead end on anything that wasn't working already.

I can't "learn" what was wrong unless I can figure out what was wrong... and that's the problem. It sounds simple and stupid... and you're right... I should be able to figure this stuff out as it shouldn't be that hard to diagnose the basic stuff.  But here we are.

And... it certainly isn't from a lack of bench equipment to test stuff!

- Wil

[David Hess]

And one question for the scope - should I buy a current probe to it? It seems extremely handy that I can see voltage and current at the same time.

A current probe is very handy if you plan on messing with switching power supply circuits.

Power Supply:
- Siglent SPD3303X-E Linear DC 3CH (I think this would be enough for me)
 OR
- Siglent SPD3303X Linear DC 3CH

Having more than one power supply is very handy, even if the extras are lower current.  A couple of extra multimeters are very handy also.

[xrunner]

What is frustrating for me is not knowing how to figure out what is wrong when something is supposed to be working and it is not.  Example:  I got an EICO 145 signal tracer at an estate sale and it was in bad shape so I decided to proceed to restore it.  This was a "kit" mind you so it is supposed to be something a 9 year-old child can put together.

Kits are pre-engineered to work right if assembled according to the instructions. They don't require the builder to be an expert in electrical engineering. That's why "a 9 year old child" can build it and, if put together correctly, it will function. If would do the same if we could train a monkey to assemble the same kit.

If you are trying to repair it, we are talking about another level of knowledge and the assembled electronics, even if originally a "kit" doesn't care if it was put together by a child. It can really be very complicated to fix if one or more things are wrong with it.

So I'm trying to tell you that you just may be jumping ahead of your skill level at the moment. I've been in electronics since I was knee high to a grasshopper and I'm still learning new things. Why not slow down and start at a simpler level for a while? Everyone here will help you if we can. What do you say?

[Wil_Bloodworth]

Why not slow down and start at a simpler level for a while? Everyone here will help you if we can. What do you say?

I am certainly not opposed to this... but I don't exactly know what it means (to you).  Slow down how?  And start where?  I'm not sure what else I should be doing.

- Wil

[abeyer]

I am certainly not opposed to this... but I don't exactly know what it means (to you).  Slow down how?  And start where?  I'm not sure what else I should be doing.

Well you say:

Example:  I got an EICO 145 signal tracer at an estate sale and it was in bad shape so I decided to proceed to restore it. This was a "kit" mind you

That seems pretty much like a recipe for maximally painful troubleshooting. You're looking at old used test equipment that came as a kit and is of dubious provenance... so you're going to be trying to untangle what the kit builder did wrong, what some later user broke or bodged, what's failed from age. Try limiting your projects down to one (or maybe max two) of those cases at a time might be a good start: if you're buying something old make sure it's known working correctly, or if you want to do the repair, look for a unit that you know, or at least looks, close to factory original. (and imho just avoid kits that other people assembled altogether  )

[armandine2]

Can I ask what part of it is frustrating you? Maybe we can help you.

What is frustrating for me is not knowing how to figure out what is wrong when something is supposed to be working and it is not.  Example:  I got an EICO 145 signal tracer at an estate sale and it was in bad shape so I decided to proceed to restore it.  This was a "kit" mind you so it is supposed to be something a 9 year-old child can put together.  Well, I've followed all of the schematics and replaced everything that needed to be replaced but all that happens when I turn it on is the transformer hums. I've tried going over the diagram again and again but I don't see anything obvious.  I've measured the voltages coming into the transformer and out of the transformer and everything "seems" to be valid but I can't even get the filaments or the case lamp to light up.  After I hook all the leads from the transformer to the appropriate places, nothing seems to work and now I'm ready to completely take the entire thing apart and start over from scratch... or just throw it in the trash and be done with it.

That's just a single example and I have a few.  Anytime I run into a similar problem on a piece of equipment, I'm completely stuck because I have no idea how to proceed.  Therefore, I end up putting it on the shelf, walking away, and go kick the dog. At this point, I'm pretty much ready to just take all of the things off the shelf and throw them away since I'm at a dead end on anything that wasn't working already.

I can't "learn" what was wrong unless I can figure out what was wrong... and that's the problem. It sounds simple and stupid... and you're right... I should be able to figure this stuff out as it shouldn't be that hard to diagnose the basic stuff.  But here we are.

And... it certainly isn't from a lack of bench equipment to test stuff!

- Wil

... sounds like a good fit for Mr Carlson's Patreon Course ?

[watchmaker]

I too am on the same parallel path as you and have collected quite a lot of gear since the end of October (scopes included).  However, I'm not sure it was a great idea for me (or anyone?) to have purchased all of the gear upfront.  My learning of electronics hasn't been the Udemy / Courses / whatever variety but rather through YouTube and old electronics books... and to be brutally honest, I'm at the point now where I just want to sell everything and find another hobby with less frustration and one that is more rewarding.  Unfortunately, electronics has not been rewarding at all (due entirely to my ignorance and lack of real-world experience).  For me, it has been the complete opposite and depressing.

Your journey may be completely different and I hope that it is but don't get caught up in all the "toys" or the mindset of, "I can do X with this piece of gear" until you are sure this is the hobby for you and that you will find enjoyment from it.

- Wil

Wil,

I think I understand.  Many of us remember the promise of Heathkit.  But to be frank, all you learned from the kits was how to solder.

What follows is said without knowing your previous experience and why you chose your current path.

Today electronics is much more accessible, but old books and previously built kits are not a good path.  I am coming back to this field 50 years after being HS Voc Ed Electonics student.  Things have changed drastically since the days of Lafayette Radio Electronics and Heathkit.  Some aspects have been very difficult for me to reconcile what I learned previously.  This group has been very helpful in getting me to see the error of my ways.

A good book I keep in my private library near the shower, Practical Electronics for Inventors by Scherz and Monk, provides excellent instruction on many aspects of the field as well as thoughts on setting up a lab and using instruments.  This is well worth buying before you give up.

Maybe look at some of the approaches developed in response to STEM.  Arduino and Rasberry PI come to mind.
These are module based and rely on some computer programming.  But there is a world of tutorials.

As others have said, everything depends upon your goals (short and long term).  But this is a challenging area that is very intellectual.  You cannot SEE what is going on like you can with a car or woodworking.  You have to measure and then deduce what those measurements mean.  Just reading schematics can be more challenging than reading a topographic map.

And, no one has said it yet.  But jumping in on non working kits built by an unknown person is risky.  Yes, in time it can be done.  But I would not recommend it as a place to jump in for the sake of safety.  OTOH, the equipment from that era is bulky, sucks energy, and not as good as perfectly good comparably priced equipment on eBay that was "obsoleted" by companies as standards changed.

I even gave away 3 perfect Simpson 260s here to people for their collections.  I did not want to use them after learning some new "basics" and the younger people do not even know what they were.  Nostalgia only goes so far.

[xrunner]

Will, I took a look at your history on the forum to try and get a better understanding of your history here. Back in Nov 2023 you said this about yourself -

Tim & Don,

Sorry... I have zero history with electronics and tubes so what is obvious to you/most, isn't clear to me at all... yet. I'm working on it.

...

That was three months ago. But you said "I have zero history with electronics and tubes. Zero history with electronics and in three months you want to restore radios and test equipment? To my mind that a very heavy lift.

I understand how you could be frustrated now. But on the other hand you are being a bit unrealistic. There is a lot to learn in this hobby and three months isn't enough time to get up to speed if you have Zero knowledge of electronics. I really think you are being a bit unrealistic with your goals in the hobby. I don't know how much "basic" electronics you can learn from restoring old electronics that are bound to have some quirky issues that may require a person with years of experience.

If I were you I'd step back and learn more of the basics. You seem to have a lot of test equipment so you'd have a good start learning some kits or basic Arduino interfacing to things such as LEDs, and sensors. You cound also go through some basic electronincs on the internet and make up the circuits yourself.

I don't know what else to tell you but I'd listen to other people here and see what they say.

[druantia]

I'm glad this topic came up, I had the same thoughts initially. I have wanted to start learning electronics for quite a while because I really liked it when I had to learn during two semesters.
But software engineering gave me a lot of similar frustration.  I never felt I really understood a field and that calming, concentrated flow/state of mind. I often feel like I can't think fast enough or I'm not smart enough and I have to google something every 5 minutes.
But I accepted that this is a side effect of this profession - and sometimes you work with others who are really smarter and faster than you.
But what you mentioned about rewarding, I have to disagree.
Every time I solve or figure out something  (even small, simple things), it is a huge reward and it's an awesome feeling. During my career there were a lot of things I didn't understand for the first time a read about. And there were things I didn't understand for the second or the third time either. But year after year, it became more clear.
Same in electronics - for me, even putting together my first breadboard circuit with a led and a switch, measuring some basic things on it was awesome! So I think it can be really awarding, just don't push yourself too hard. Since for me it's more of a hobby, I don't stress on it.

One of my favorite proverb is that Perfection is the enemy of progress. Most of the time, I give up my home projects because I want them to too perfect, I wanted everything to be top-notch. And this gave me a hell of a lot frustration, analysis paralysis and decision fatigue. I found myself always reading and watching videos how things should be done, and because of this, I never really progressed.
I would be much further along in my projects if I hadn't expected so much from myself and not giving up when I hit some mental frustration because of it.

So yeah, I thought about this one too. Developing software can be extremely frustrating and I asked myself: Do I really need a hobby that is that hard?

But creating something, from hardware to backend and frontend and understand how all the parts connecting and working together - even if it's something simple - for me, it's extremely rewarding.

[watchmaker]

Druantia,

I had to laugh.  I am still on resistor networks (almost done) and I am verifying my calcs empirically.  There were times I spent on a day and only got two problems reconciled.  But when I do I feel like I accomplished something.

It is amazing where the errors creep in: calculator, wiring, measuring even transcribing!!  But each resolution improves my mental discipline.

What you said about the anxiety of not feeling perfectly competent..... I fully understand.  I was basically self taught in watchmaking (with access to some highly skilled people).  I felt like the grocery store owner who could not write.  Even though I could things others could not.

It was not until I completed an invitational course of study in Switz that I finally felt like I was competent.  It took me a couple months to be comfortable in my own skin.  I felt like I accomplished things by accident.  Finally, the senior instructor took me out for drinks and said "Look, if you did it, you can DO it".

What he said may apply to you.

One of the hardest things to learn is to correctly assess your own work.  Not to over or under evaluate what one does.

[Solder_Junkie]

As a former electronics systems engineer and lifetime hobby electronics enthusiast, can I ask that you don't buy cheap soldering stations from Aliexpress, or eBay. A professional grade soldering station will last tens of years, we used Weller at work and while not as much in favour as they once were, they are an industry standard. Hakko is another good make. Don't forget a fume extractor, there are some effective ones that don't cost the earth.

I note your low cost multimeter, beware of cheap meters they can literally blow up in your hands if used on mains electricity and on the wrong range. Like soldering stations, a good multimeter will last a long time. Some of the USA made Fluke meters come with a lifetime warranty, they might cost a lot more than the cheap Chinese ones, but spread over several years it's cheap in the long run... and they won't burst into flames. If you don't want to pay Fluke prices, Brymen come recommended by Dave Jones (Mr EEV) and have pretty good safety standards.

As a home user, I wouldn't rush to buy a 200 MHz 4 channel scope. As per another reply, Siglent are likely to be soon releasing a competitor to the Rigol 12 bit ones. 4 channels are handy, I am not sure about going beyond 70 or 100 MHz unless you really need to, the cost starts increasing at an alarming rate, especially as you need a greater sample rate than the typical 1 GSa/s found on scopes up to around 100 MHz bandwidth.

Power supplies are very expensive from some sources, an ordinary linear bench supply of perhaps 0-30 Volts and 0-3 Amps will suffice for most experiments. Adjustable current limit is essential and is standard on almost all such units. One with a digital readout is handy, but one of the older ones with an analog meter is all you really need. If you work on op amps and other split rail projects, one that has + and - outputs relative to ground is useful.

An infrared "ear" thermometer is cheap and makes an easy means of measuring the temperature of components without going to the expense of a thermal imaging camera. Make sure it has an option to read up to 100 deg C, not all of them have that ability. The small sensor hole (3mm or less) gives them an advantage over the "gun" type that have a large hole and are more intended to measure large objects.

An LCR meter is very useful, as is a good transistor/diode tester. Peak Instruments made good ones.

A function generator is also handy to have.

A head magnifier, such as an Optivisor, or if working on SMD boards, a binocular microscope, are essential if you want to avoid soldering mistakes.

Have fun!

SJ

[Wil_Bloodworth]

FIRST:  My sincere apologies to the OP for bogarting this thread topic!

... sounds like a good fit for Mr Carlson's Patreon Course ?

I am a member of Mr. Carlson's Patreon but haven't seen "the course" you're referring to.  I had high hopes (still do) that I would learn a lot from Mr. Carlson and the other members there but it has been woefully over my head so I rarely go there anymore as it seems to just be a waste of time since I don't understand most of what is said there.

Wil,  I think I understand.  Many of us remember the promise of Heathkit.  But to be frank, all you learned from the kits was how to solder.

What follows is said without knowing your previous experience and why you chose your current path.

A good book I keep in my private library near the shower, Practical Electronics for Inventors by Scherz and Monk, provides excellent instruction on many aspects of the field as well as thoughts on setting up a lab and using instruments.  This is well worth buying before you give up.

Maybe look at some of the approaches developed in response to STEM.  Arduino and Rasberry PI come to mind.
These are module based and rely on some computer programming.  But there is a world of tutorials.

As others have said, everything depends upon your goals (short and long term).  But this is a challenging area that is very intellectual.  You cannot SEE what is going on like you can with a car or woodworking.  You have to measure and then deduce what those measurements mean.  Just reading schematics can be more challenging than reading a topographic map.

And, no one has said it yet.  But jumping in on non working kits built by an unknown person is risky.  Yes, in time it can be done.  But I would not recommend it as a place to jump in for the sake of safety.  OTOH, the equipment from that era is bulky, sucks energy, and not as good as perfectly good comparably priced equipment on eBay that was "obsoleted" by companies as standards changed.

There are quite a few questions there I would like to address... first, why I chose my path.  Almost all other questions can be answered by my answer to this question I believe so here goes... I'm at the end of my (software) career.  In my career, I'm on top and understand everything there is to know, can instantly diagnose pretty much anything, can create anything from scratch, and need no one for help with anything. My aplogies for sounding vain.  I do not want to sound or come across vain.  I only say this to setup my own personal expectations of myself... I'm SO used to having all the answers that I expect myself to BE at that level with electronics. I know my expectations are ridiculous but it's hard to expect anything else of yourself when (in your little bubble) everything can be done in your sleep.  Very long story short... I have extremely high and probably unrealistic expectations of ramping up my electronics knowledge and THAT is the primary cause of my frustration. So... frustration root cause #1... EXPECTATIONS (unrealistic).

STEM/Arduino/RasbPi:  Yes, these are certainly options that are tangential to my career but I wanted to eliminate as many variables as possible while learning electronics. I wanted just the fundamentals without all of the bells and whistles.  Antique radios are (I think?) fairly simple and pair well with that goal. There are no transistors of any kind (well, in my path so far), there are no ICs, there are no CPUs, GPUs... there are only resistors, capacitors, vacuum tubes, a power supply, a speaker, and an antenna.  The simplicity of the entire package was my original reason for choosing this as a starter medium.

Response to working on "Kits":  Acknowledged. My only thought was that they were simple, schematics were readily available, and that the kits I chose would be useful tools down the line for diagnosing issues with radio gear. So logically (in my mind) it made sense.

Will, I took a look at your history on the forum to try and get a better understanding of your history here. Back in Nov 2023 you said this about yourself -

Tim & Don,

Sorry... I have zero history with electronics and tubes so what is obvious to you/most, isn't clear to me at all... yet. I'm working on it.

...

That was three months ago. But you said "I have zero history with electronics and tubes. Zero history with electronics and in three months you want to restore radios and test equipment? To my mind that a very heavy lift.

I understand how you could be frustrated now. But on the other hand you are being a bit unrealistic. There is a lot to learn in this hobby and three months isn't enough time to get up to speed if you have Zero knowledge of electronics. I really think you are being a bit unrealistic with your goals in the hobby. I don't know how much "basic" electronics you can learn from restoring old electronics that are bound to have some quirky issues that may require a person with years of experience.

If I were you I'd step back and learn more of the basics. You seem to have a lot of test equipment so you'd have a good start learning some kits or basic Arduino interfacing to things such as LEDs, and sensors. You cound also go through some basic electronincs on the internet and make up the circuits yourself.

I don't know what else to tell you but I'd listen to other people here and see what they say.

You are correct sir.  I touched on the arduino / raspberry pi topic a bit above (and I have considered this again and again) but let me go over that a bit again. It's, "too close to work" as I don't really want to do any more software since I'm nearing the end of a lifetime of software.  I also have no interest (at this point) in anything that involves circuit boards ("PCBs"), ICs, or "chips" of any kind.  My logic there is that those kits do not overlap (much) with the kinds of things I want to work on [initially]... antique radios from the 1940s through maybe the 1960s.  And again, I do not want to "bring my work home with me" so if it resembles software development in any way, shape, or form... I want to avoid it. My brain is already tired at the end of each day so I want to work on something completely unrelated, and to be honest... non complicated... hence the antique radios. 

I am 100% positive that every person here has an intrisic need to solve puzzles of some kind and that is why we chose the professions and hobbies we're discussing. The puzzle I've chosen was [basic] electronics. The goal was to be able to fix some simple things but I never have had any aspirations of even looking at something with a circuit board.  The puzzle should be slightly more intellectually stimulating that raking the lawn but less tasking than... anything involving a chip.

I would be much further along in my projects if I hadn't expected so much from myself and not giving up when I hit some mental frustration because of it.

Ditto.

What you said about the anxiety of not feeling perfectly competent..... I fully understand.  I was basically self taught in watchmaking (with access to some highly skilled people).

It is the lack of that access to highly skilled people that I miss.  I have team members coming to me daily for help with issues and I'm super glad to help anyone with issues.  I don't have that when I'm home alone trying to learn electronics.  You might say, "Well, you have everyone here and so on..." and that would be true but it's not "real time".  I cannot just ping someone on teams and instantly have the answer... and I'm used to that "instant answer" situation... and that is also frustrating that I cannot get immediate answers to what I'm doing wrong.

I'm impatient when it comes to learning things. I hated college because they would talk for an hour and then tell you to read 20 pages and they'd see you next week.  I would read the 20 pages in the next 45 minutes and then I wanted to keep going.  The part of waiting a week to keep going does not work for me.  I want to get A done, move on to B immediately, get B done, move on to C... and so on.  My mind does not like or do well with "conventional teaching strategy".

That said, I can slow down and do whatever is necessary to "groc" the fundamentals since I have no timeline... other than wanting to accomplish something meaningful sometime soon.

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to respond. Your thoughts and guidance is truly appreciated!

- Wil

[druantia]

FIRST:  My sincere apologies to the OP for bogarting this thread topic!

No problem at all, this is an interesting and important topic

I'm at the end of my (software) career.  In my career, I'm on top and understand everything there is to know

This is a big statement in software. This field is so vast, that even if you work for many years, there is always something new to learn and understand. But I understand you, sometimes I also feel that I don't want to deal with software -  but then I always draw motivation from somewhere.

can I ask that you don't buy cheap soldering stations from Aliexpress, or eBay.

And what about the not so cheap Aliexpress stations?  I wanted to buy the Aixun T3A because I read good things about it - although I saw a youtube video where somebody pointed out, that on the tip there is 1V voltage, which could be problematic when your pcb is grounded for some reason, so this has put me in quite a dilemma.
Right now, I think my journey with electronics won't be soldering heavy. So I feel even the aixun is a little overkill for me.

An infrared "ear" thermometer is cheap and makes an easy means of measuring the temperature of components without going to the expense of a thermal imaging camera

This sounds like a great idea, I never thought about this!

As a home user, I wouldn't rush to buy a 200 MHz 4 channel scope.

Good point - in the first batch I'll only buy a power supply, a good multimeter (maybe bench dmm) and a soldering station (with the necessary things like fume extractor and magnifier). And after that, I will see what I need.

One of the hardest things to learn is to correctly assess your own work.

I agree 100 percent. Also, it's good to hear you managed to reach such a high level craftmanship in your interest, especially self-thought

[Veteran68]

As a home user, I wouldn't rush to buy a 200 MHz 4 channel scope.

Good point - in the first batch I'll only buy a power supply, a good multimeter (maybe bench dmm) and a soldering station (with the necessary things like fume extractor and magnifier). And after that, I will see what I need.

You likely won't need a 200Hmz scope starting out, but I do recommend you go with 4 channels. They're only marginally more expensive in most cases, and you'll inevitably need to measure a 3rd signal like a data or enable line while you're also measuring voltage and current, or some such. Not to mention most of the 70Mhz scopes from the bigger hobbyist brands are upgradable to up to 200Mhz anyway.

I think that's a good start on the basic equipment. You can get by without a scope initially, as you learn the fundamentals. As I'd mentioned, you'd be best served with two DMMs. If you can swing a decent bench DMM for one that's ideal, but again it's not necessary starting out. And realize the cheapest bench meters are just handheld DMM internals in a big empty case. I'd forget those and wait until you can swing a good starter bench DMM in the 4.5-5.5 digit range, such as the Siglent SDM3045 or a used HP/Agilent 34401A. In the meantime, pick up two decent handheld DMMs and a variety of test leads. You'll quickly find yourself needing to measure voltage and current at the same time. And you don't have to spend Fluke, Keysight, or Metrawatt money on a DMM -- Brymen makes excellent DMMs for electronics work. A step down from Brymen would be a good Uni-T or Owon DMM. Then further down, some of the Zoyi/Zotek/Aneng/Kaiweets meters are actually pretty good for hobby bench work, too, if your budget is really constrained. I have several of them in that class, including all the brands mentioned. They're cheap enough and usually precise enough to get you by for LV work, I'd just avoid doing much around mains/HV work with most of them.

I think any of the popular "Chinese" soldering stations or irons will fit your needs to start, including the USB powered pencil irons. Many recommend beginners start out with the Hakko 888D, but I recommend against its old-school tip configuration. It's terrible at delivering and regulating consistent heat. Stick with the cartridge-based irons like the T12/T18/JBC styles. Also, while cheap JBC clone stations can be fine, in most cases the clone tips are not, so you'll want to get a station that can work with genuine tips. Actually, similar to DMMs, it's best to have a couple of soldering irons on-hand -- in lieu of hot tweezers you sometimes need to "dual wield" soldering irons to get larger/stubborn SMDs. Not to mention have a backup in case one goes down. The USB powered irons are perfect here, and also serve double duty as a portable option using a USB battery pack.

I am a big proponent of spending wisely in terms of buying as much quality as you can afford. Don't settle for the cheapest test equipment just because it's the cheapest, but rather only if you're confident it'll fit your needs and won't disappoint.

[xrunner]

... The goal was to be able to fix some simple things but I never have had any aspirations of even looking at something with a circuit board.

It seems then that the cold hard answer is that you picked the wrong hobby. 

[watchmaker]

can I ask that you don't buy cheap soldering stations from Aliexpress, or eBay.

And what about the not so cheap Aliexpress stations?  I wanted to buy the Aixun T3A because I read good things about it - although I saw a youtube video where somebody pointed out, that on the tip there is 1V voltage, which could be problematic when your pcb is grounded for some reason, so this has put me in quite a dilemma.
Right now, I think my journey with electronics won't be soldering heavy. So I feel even the aixun is a little overkill for me.

The USB powered irons are perfect here, and also serve double duty as a portable option using a USB battery pack.

I am a big proponent of spending wisely in terms of buying as much quality as you can afford. Don't settle for the cheapest test equipment just because it's the cheapest, but rather only if you're confident it'll fit your needs and won't disappoint.

Seriously, look at the Pinecil.  Small USB/20V DC 70 watt iron with many tips.  Tips and Iron under $100 USD.  Then buy a $15 20V DC 100 W computer charger to power it.  I bought one to check it out.  It is smaller than the Ersa I Tool and just as effective.  Lifespan? Who knows.  But it sure beats a $150 Chinese clone that seems to become a hobby unto itself.

[Wil_Bloodworth]

... The goal was to be able to fix some simple things but I never have had any aspirations of even looking at something with a circuit board.

It seems then that the cold hard answer is that you picked the wrong hobby. 

How is that?  Antique radios do not have circuit boards.

- Wil

[xrunner]

... The goal was to be able to fix some simple things but I never have had any aspirations of even looking at something with a circuit board.

It seems then that the cold hard answer is that you picked the wrong hobby. 

How is that?  Antique radios do not have circuit boards.

- Wil

1. Define "antique".


2. Let's stick with the simple sorts of wiring you are bumping up against, point to point wiring, and compare. A one or two sided circuit board is simply wires running to other components. Its mostly very easy to follow, and compared with a lot of jumbled looking point-to-point wiring you find, its no harder to work with. So I find it hard to understand what your problem is with working on simple circuit boards as opposed to point-to-point wiring. Can you explain for us?

[Wil_Bloodworth]

... The goal was to be able to fix some simple things but I never have had any aspirations of even looking at something with a circuit board.

It seems then that the cold hard answer is that you picked the wrong hobby. 

How is that?  Antique radios do not have circuit boards.

- Wil

1. Define "antique".


2. Let's stick with the simple sorts of wiring you are bumping up against, point to point wiring, and compare. A one or two sided circuit board is simply wires running to other components. Its mostly very easy to follow, and compared with a lot of jumbled looking point-to-point wiring you find, its no harder to work with. So I find it hard to understand what your problem is with working on simple circuit boards as opposed to point-to-point wiring. Can you explain for us?

1.  I already defined that earlier in the post... radios from the 1940s and 1950s mostly.

2.  My explanation is that I have no "desire" to work on anything with a circuit board. I consider circuit boards a "slippery slope" in that if you start working on them... what's next?... transistors?  Maybe electronic switches, diodes, voltage regulators, op-amps, ICs.  Where does it end?  It doesn't end.  So, my focus (at least for now) is to keep it 100% simple with only antique radios. Who knows, I may eventually get to a point where I'm no longer challenged by that level of technology and want to move forward.  I'm not there yet and have zero desire to attempt to learn anything that isn't in a vacuum tube radio from the 40s or 50s.

A few years ago, I was talking with a fellow "athlete" friend and I told him that in addition to cycling, I was considering doing triathlons. He looked at me and said, "Why do you want to suck at three things?!"  The point is that if I work on learning 37 things instead of focusing on 5, I will never be able to master the 5.  Once I've mastered and completely understand the 5 (or the basics), I can progress to other areas. There is no point in learning about an Arduino if I never want to work on an Arduino. No one is going to come to me some day and say, "Hey, can you fix my Arduino?".  However, I may be able to fix some radios and be happy about it.

Does that help?

- Wil

[David Hess]

I think that's a good start on the basic equipment. You can get by without a scope initially, as you learn the fundamentals. As I'd mentioned, you'd be best served with two DMMs. If you can swing a decent bench DMM for one that's ideal, but again it's not necessary starting out. And realize the cheapest bench meters are just handheld DMM internals in a big empty case. I'd forget those and wait until you can swing a good starter bench DMM in the 4.5-5.5 digit range, such as the Siglent SDM3045 or a used HP/Agilent 34401A. In the meantime, pick up two decent handheld DMMs and a variety of test leads. You'll quickly find yourself needing to measure voltage and current at the same time. And you don't have to spend Fluke, Keysight, or Metrawatt money on a DMM -- Brymen makes excellent DMMs for electronics work. A step down from Brymen would be a good Uni-T or Owon DMM. Then further down, some of the Zoyi/Zotek/Aneng/Kaiweets meters are actually pretty good for hobby bench work, too, if your budget is really constrained. I have several of them in that class, including all the brands mentioned. They're cheap enough and usually precise enough to get you by for LV work, I'd just avoid doing much around mains/HV work with most of them.

More than half of my "extra" bench digital multimeters are ancient Tektronix TM500 series units which I restored.  Doing so is not for everybody, but a lot can be learned about instrument design and electronics repairing old test equipment that has full service documentation.

[watchmaker]

Wil,

If you really want to work on tube devices, then you should look at the Ham Radio forums and Antique Radios Forum.

I was educated on tubes just as ICs were coming in.  Problems with thube stuff are:

Finding tubes
High B+ voltages
Ungrounded chassis

You still need a scope, DMM and power supplies.  Plus you still need to know how electrons work in circuits.  Oscillators, amplifiers, IF ckts etc.  The theory is the same whether on tubes or transistors.  And the trouble shooting skills are pretty much the same.

As for slippery slope; how much time to you think you have left?  I doubt you or I have time to progress to hi energy hi frequency circuits.

Get a copy of Practical Electronics for Inventors.  Yes it is semiconductor oriented.  But it may give you a broader view while imparting excellent information.

I am very sympathetic to your being bored with your old craft.  it sounds like it reached a point where you were no longer in situations where you had to learn new things.  I have talked with a number of people, usually crafts persons, who experience this.  I hit the same in my work.  Typically people try to find a student so they stay energized.  But sometimes that is not feasible. (I gave up on apprentices but my website is geared to students in the schools and amatuers wanting to improve.  But I have even reduced my effor there.  40 years is time to move on.)


Seriously, tubes?  Chassis punches, rivets, terminal strips, tube sockets, wire dressing, 3 times as much horizontal space???  And don't forget, the computer used at Bletchley Park used tubes.  You can still wind up where you don't want to be even with tubes.

Just sayin.

[Wil_Bloodworth]

Get a copy of Practical Electronics for Inventors.  Yes it is semiconductor oriented.  But it may give you a broader view while imparting excellent information.

Thank you.  I ordered that book yesterday and it should arrive today.

And you're right, 40+ years is enough... but I still need a mental challenge.  I'm not trying to start a new career though. I just want to learn a little bit about something new and useful at a comfortable pace.

- Wil

[Yuu]

There are no transistors of any kind (well, in my path so far), there are no ICs, there are no CPUs, GPUs... there are only resistors, capacitors, vacuum tubes, a power supply, a speaker, and an antenna.  The simplicity of the entire package was my original reason for choosing this as a starter medium.

Why do you think vacuum tubes are simple? I've never worked with them but even I can tell you that's your gain element/active device. The same principles you encounter with transistors (e.g. regions of operation, different impedances depending on what port you are looking into, etc...) would likely apply to vacuum tubes as well. Meaning it can get a little complicated.

There's also plenty of depth just in "simple" things. Some people make entire careers just designing transistors and doing device physics. That's not even to the circuit level of complexity.

If you think circuit boards are a slippery slope, what do you think about radios? :p
You might find yourself wanting to learn more about antennas -> needing to learn more about electromagnetics -> then maybe you might want/need to learn more about analysis and differential equations. Slippery slope indeed.

[Wil_Bloodworth]

There's also plenty of depth just in "simple" things. Some people make entire careers just designing transistors and doing device physics. That's not even to the circuit level of complexity.

If you think circuit boards are a slippery slope, what do you think about radios? :p
You might find yourself wanting to learn more about antennas -> needing to learn more about electromagnetics -> then maybe you might want/need to learn more about analysis and differential equations. Slippery slope indeed.

You are correct.  But again... this is where I WANT to work.  I don't understand the vehemence around trying to convince me to work on something different than what I want to work on at the moment.  What are you trying to achieve by convincing me to work on something other than what I've been clear I want to work on?

- Wil

[Wil_Bloodworth]

A good book I keep in my private library near the shower, Practical Electronics for Inventors by Scherz and Monk, provides excellent instruction on many aspects of the field as well as thoughts on setting up a lab and using instruments.  This is well worth buying before you give up.

The book arrived today and... wow... this thing is huge! Looks like a great book.  Thank you for the recommendation!

- Wil

[watchmaker]

There's also plenty of depth just in "simple" things. Some people make entire careers just designing transistors and doing device physics. That's not even to the circuit level of complexity.

If you think circuit boards are a slippery slope, what do you think about radios? :p
You might find yourself wanting to learn more about antennas -> needing to learn more about electromagnetics -> then maybe you might want/need to learn more about analysis and differential equations. Slippery slope indeed.

You are correct.  But again... this is where I WANT to work.  I don't understand the vehemence around trying to convince me to work on something different than what I want to work on at the moment.  What are you trying to achieve by convincing me to work on something other than what I've been clear I want to work on?

- Wil

Wil,

I am not sure respondents are trying to convince you of anything.  I know I am simply talking one old guy to another.  I get the nostalgia of tubes, but the logistics are pretty difficult. In fact, I started out summer thinking I wanted to go start in tubes.  Even joined Antique Radio.  But I looked at tubes, prices and remembered the logistics and decided that if my goal was to spend my time with a learning challenge rather than doing crossword puzzles and watching cable news, then semiconductors offered the same challenge but with easier logistics.

 $5 for a tube that may or may not work rather than 50 cents for a transistor?  1/4 W resistors instead of 10 watt? Just the storage space alone.

Then you gotta buy a tube tester for a couple hundred dollars (maybe with an intact roll).  While excellent automatic component testers can be had for under $20.

I have on my bench a little $20 tester that tells me almost everything I want to know about transistors, diodes, LEDs, resistors, capacitors, inductors and it even has a freq generator and voltage meter.  The world has turned!

Breadboarding is much easier (if somewhat controversial; but this is a group of engineeers!).  Which brings up that with semis, you have access to real engineers via this group. Not a bunch of skilled amateurs who may or may not know the answer to your questions.

May you find your next challenge!

So, I am responding to your stated purpose and the frustration you have experienced.  I think you will find a smoother path here. But if tubes are really your passion, then this is likely not the place for active involvement.

[Yuu]

I am not sure respondents are trying to convince you of anything.

This is correct. I'm just chit chatting. Definitely don't let it come off as trying to discourage you.

[armandine2]

http://ukhhsoc.torrens.org/other/Papers/David_Lord_June_2017/History_of_DIY_HiFi_in_UK.html

if DIY HiFi sounds appealing - the link has some interesting electronics history as well as the obligatory eye candy

[donlisms]

My theory would be that people are just trying to present alternate paths to "success," at least as far as they understand what you're after.

I haven't read all of this thread, but to be honest, it struck me sideways to begin with.  I've tried it both ways - buy all the stuff, then learn to use it, versus learn learn learn, and buy what stuff I need to keep going.  I prefer the latter, so all of the posts and vids I've ever seen about setting up a shop seem backwards to me.  I might say "when you realize you need something to solve a problem you're working on, that's when you buy it." At that point you know enough to make wise decisions.

Such a sweeping generalization requires exceptions: you're going to need a meter, and a soldering iron. So... up front, but no need to get carried away. I've watched repair-person vids where that was ALL he needed -- that, and some brain power, a rather modest understanding of how the thing is supposed to work or what the schematic means, but a *very* good library of techniques for finding bad components, since that's nearly always what fixing something is about.  We're not changing the design, here, just hunting for its... structural failures.

For a better understanding, more applicable to making stuff, maybe there are some analogies with software.  Maybe if I wanted to help someone learn to design good code, I'd start with the basic behavior of the elements if the language - the components.  Maybe start fitting them together in little fragments that do something useful, though not an app or anything.  And build the smaller bits into bigger bits.

Maybe... well, what helped me in my early days was reading a LOT of code by others, lots and lots of it, and developing a sense of evaluating it: "this is good because..." or "this is bad because."  But the enablement there was getting a stronger grasp of how to use lower-level pieces to make higher-level pieces; how to architect, and make good decisions. Radios have designs; those are made of sub-designs, made of components, architected at each level.  If you're intent on learning, focusing on those things will help, with or without doo-dads on your bench. You kind wanna try get a library of sub-circuits on your mental self so you can look at a schematic and say, "ah... IF section, audio here... that's weird, what's that?"

I think tubes are great; we owe them a lot and they still have their places.  Whether the expense is an issue is yours to decide; whether they are big and hot is not!  But as a three-terminal device, or variation thereof... perfectly fine place to start.