EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Beginners => Topic started by: gmc on September 23, 2020, 10:29:08 am
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I'm a hobbyist that's been soldering on and off for the past 20 years. I've had a stash of solder from around 2000 that's finally finished and had to order a new roll.
I"m now finding it almost impossible to solder with the new stuff.
Found the spec for the old solder:
Tin 60%
Lead 40%
Diameter 0.5mm
Flux content 1.15% (0.1%Tol.)
Melting point 185ºC
The new stuff I first ordered a roll of 63/37 from eBay. 0.5mm. Flux 2% which when I try to solder it doesn't flow as easily as the old stuff, and I have a big issue with heating up and soldering pins to ground planes. The solder almost seems to break off in chunks. Soldering single pins is a bit easier. Electronics solder pump is also having issues removing the solder cleanly.
I then tried ordering 60/40, 0.5mm, Flux 2% which is a little better but still not as good as the orignal. It just doesn't flow the same. Also same issues with soldering ground pins.
Is this just a problem with this modern rubbish? I've been reading about lead free solder and the problems people have with it. Could I just bought rubbish solder from eBay? Perhaps its lead free even though labels say different?
Both the 60/40 and 63/37 rolls are Jinhu from China. Maybe that's the issue :o
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You propose a solution in your last sentence.
I use Kester solder and stick to that brand. Whatever brand you are used to, stick with it.
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If you are soldering for fun, not profit, treat yourself to some solder with Pb and Ag
Sn62PbAg2 - 0,35mm 100g, EDSYN
(Some people prefer slightly thicker... 0.5mm)
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... and others prefer a *LOT* thicker. :) Get whatever diameter you are used to, maybe going down a size if you find fine SMD work excessively challenging.
You can test your solder for its ability to wet a clean copper surface. The procedure is to place a short length of solder on a freshly cleaned copper (or copper clad PCB) test coupon, and either heat it from below on a 250 deg C hotplate or by hot air till the solder melts. The copper *MUST* have a freshly abraded bright surface and be 'waterbreak' clean, with no fingerprints or other gross contamination. If it flows out and wets the copper surface, its OK, the larger the wetted area without disturbing it the better. If it balls up its flux is ineffective - either fake or too much oxides and other dross in the solder alloy for the flux to cope with. If it doesn't (eventually) fully melt at 250 deg C its fake solder alloy, not Sn60/Pb40 (edit) or even any normal Pb-free solder alloy.
If you have a temperature controlled soldering iron that you are reasonably confident is accurately calibrated, you can also check the solder's melting point range is reasonably close to that for Sn60/Pb40. If it isn't calibrated, but can hold a stable temperature, compare with 'known good' Sn60/Pb40 solder. Freshly tin and wipe the bit before each temperature test run so you aren't working with badly oxidized or contaminated solder, and prod the puddle on the bit with a wooden toothpick to determine whether or not its fully melted. Applying extra flux with the toothpick may also help.
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Thanks. I'll try and get a decent brand and see how it goes.
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Actually I was commenting on diameter with my SMD hat on... for connectors and Thru hole... definitely a bit thicker.
I have some horrible 1mm Sn99.3Cu.7 stuff from Maplin which I use on connectors.
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2nd vote for Kester. I use Kester 44 63/37 and it flows well.
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60/40 "Ersin Multicore Solder" is God's own solder and I'll fight anyone who says different. >:D
Seriously, you won't find Kesler in the UK without parting with an arm or a leg. Good old British "Multicore" brand is the old reliable but is nowadays sold under the Loc-Tite brand.
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I use Multicore Loctite 60-40, I have always enjoyed it
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I too fell for the Chinese solder. I bought a pound or so of 63/37 and it was terrible. I got a refund without having to return it.
So out of curiosity I tried some old paste flux and that seemed to work. Now I use the new solder when touching up old joints that probably still have some flux residue and it's fine. So it's not the solder; it's the flux.
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Multicore Loctite 60/40 all the way. I'm done with Chinese solders :box:
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I was using 60/40 but switched to 63/37. I'm not sure which one I like better.
They do behave quite differently. 60/40 stays molten longer than 63/37. I also found 60/40 to become more liquid than 63/37 which stays somewhat plastic. (lumpy?) Please keep in mind, when you go for non-brand name stuff, spec they say isn't a promise. Sometimes it's not even a suggestion. Quite often, it's a wishful thinking....
I bet what you have isn't even close to what it says on the label.
As to "flow" compared to old solders, I agree with you. There is something different. I'm thinking flux. I remember a roll I bought 30 years ago flowed a lot more. It's probably the flux being more active and corrosive.
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Is this just a problem with this modern rubbish? I've been reading about lead free solder and the problems people have with it. Could I just bought rubbish solder from eBay? Perhaps its lead free even though labels say different?
Both the 60/40 and 63/37 rolls are Jinhu from China. Maybe that's the issue :o
That sounds like a quality control issue or since you ordered from China, a counterfeit product.
63/37 should perform practically identically to 60/40
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That sounds like a quality control issue or since you ordered from China, a counterfeit product.
63/37 should perform practically identically to 60/40
Counterfeit probably not, given that they are selling it under their own brand (what would they be counterfeiting?). Low quality - for sure.
One certainly can get decent stuff from AliExpress and such but one has to stick to well known brands - e.g. the Mechanic one seems to have decent reputation. Or not be a cheapskate saving pennies on things like solder.
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I was using 60/40 but switched to 63/37. I'm not sure which one I like better.
They do behave quite differently. 60/40 stays molten longer than 63/37. I also found 60/40 to become more liquid than 63/37 which stays somewhat plastic. (lumpy?) Please keep in mind, when you go for non-brand name stuff, spec they say isn't a promise. Sometimes it's not even a suggestion. Quite often, it's a wishful thinking....
I bet what you have isn't even close to what it says on the label.
As to "flow" compared to old solders, I agree with you. There is something different. I'm thinking flux. I remember a roll I bought 30 years ago flowed a lot more. It's probably the flux being more active and corrosive.
63/37 solder is eutectic, meaning it has no plastic phase whatsoever. So either you’re confusing the two or the 63/37 is fake.
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Is this just a problem with this modern rubbish? I've been reading about lead free solder and the problems people have with it. Could I just bought rubbish solder from eBay? Perhaps its lead free even though labels say different?
Both the 60/40 and 63/37 rolls are Jinhu from China. Maybe that's the issue :o
The horrors of Chinese solders are well documented. Considering how little solder one uses, it’s silly to try and go cheap, IMHO.
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If you are soldering for fun, not profit, treat yourself to some solder with Pb and Ag
Sn62PbAg2 - 0,35mm 100g, EDSYN
(Some people prefer slightly thicker... 0.5mm)
Why? Sn62PbAg2 is harder to work with than 63/37; you only need the Sn62PbAg2 to prevent excessive dissolving of silver-plated terminals.
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I'm new to electronics work, and after doing research I went with Kester 44 63/37 .031" (.8mm) and .02" (.5mm). I bought them from Amazon, 1lb. spools, for around $25 USD each. I'm using it primarily to make cables and the smaller solder to do some repairs.
So far it works great. Flows really nice, hardens up fast since it's eutectic, and looks nice and shiny.
You'll pay a bit more if you buy from Amazon or a parts dealer, but I chose to do that to make sure I got the legit stuff. Very happy with it so far and I like how fast the 63/37 solidifies. 350º C seems to be a good heat (for my cable work). I tested at 300 and 320 and it wasn't heating the conductors quick enough. At 350 I could heat the wire quickly and thoroughly tin it without the jacket melting. YMMV.
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Why? Sn62PbAg2 is harder to work with than 63/37; you only need the Sn62PbAg2 to prevent excessive dissolving of silver-plated terminals.
I suspect Sn62PbAg2 is more difficult to work with because it is usually accompanied by a worse flux or less of it for whatever reason. I can always tell when soldering with Sn62PbAg2 because it smells different.
Besides soldering to silver plated terminations, it is also useful where extra strength is required; it is the strongest of the low temperature SnPb alloys and several times stronger than Sn63Pb37 or Sn60Pb40. It should also wet better.
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I'm new to electronics work, and after doing research I went with Kester 44 63/37 .031" (.8mm) and .02" (.5mm).
That is my preferred solder also, but I have found that Kester 44 60/40 works just as well and so do the spools of similar solder from Alpha Metals that I have.
I think the problem is mostly about avoiding low quality and counterfeit products.
I have heard high praise for solder from Multicore but never got to use it myself. I guess Loctite owns them now.
One thing you can do to get better results is to wipe down the outside of the solder as you use it to remove oxides.
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63/37 solder is eutectic, meaning it has no plastic phase whatsoever. So either you’re confusing the two or the 63/37 is fake.
Erm, to be pedantic, no. Eutectic means that there is a sudden, well defined transition from the liquid to the solid phase at a specific characteristic temperature, with no temperature where there is an intermediate interphase state where there is both solid and liquid present (and possibly vapour too). The solid phase, for both eutectic and non-eutectic alloys still exhibits plasticity (and elasticity too for that matter). There's more to eutectics than this (like melting point) if one wants to be truly pedantic but I'm concentrating on the most notable characteristic of a Tin-Lead eutectic and it's the use of the phrase 'plastic phase' here that I find problematic enough to moan about.
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I think the problem is mostly about avoiding low quality and counterfeit products.
I agree. I just extrapolated a bit on my limited experience. To stay within budget, I got one type at 2 sizes. I would have liked to try both as they seem like the go-to standards. C'est la vie.
Are you wiping down with a simple cloth or with something else?
Thanks for the additional info. :-+
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I use the Multicore (Loc-tite) brand of solder in 60/40 & 63/37.
I have tried cheap solder, once. I got a roll with a cheap iron years ago and after that nightmarish experience vowed to stick to know good stuff.
Multicore like most brands make a full range of products so you can match your solder, wick & flux for best compatibility.
Buy cheap, buy twice is normally how it goes and tbh unless you are a pro or hardcore hobbyist, a 500g roll is a lifetimes worth so worth the investment imo
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63/37 solder is eutectic, meaning it has no plastic phase whatsoever. So either you’re confusing the two or the 63/37 is fake.
Erm, to be pedantic, no. Eutectic means that there is a sudden, well defined transition from the liquid to the solid phase at a specific characteristic temperature, with no temperature where there is an intermediate interphase state where there is both solid and liquid present (and possibly vapour too). The solid phase, for both eutectic and non-eutectic alloys still exhibits plasticity (and elasticity too for that matter). There's more to eutectics than this (like melting point) if one wants to be truly pedantic but I'm concentrating on the most notable characteristic of a Tin-Lead eutectic and it's the use of the phrase 'plastic phase' here that I find problematic enough to moan about.
You are being pedantic for sure, but you’re also wrong. The plastic phase doesn’t refer to the plasticity of the solid phase. It refers to the slushy “interphase state”. I didn’t invent the term “plastic phase”, it’s the term ordinarily used in the solder industry to refer to said state. So if you’re going to argue with me about it, you’ll also have to argue with the entire industry...
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Why? Sn62PbAg2 is harder to work with than 63/37; you only need the Sn62PbAg2 to prevent excessive dissolving of silver-plated terminals.
I suspect Sn62PbAg2 is more difficult to work with because it is usually accompanied by a worse flux or less of it for whatever reason. I can always tell when soldering with Sn62PbAg2 because it smells different.
Not likely the reason, given that you can get some Sn62PbAg2 with the same flux as 63/37. That’s down to the vendor. But it’s my understanding that the former has poorer wetting characteristics than the latter.
Besides soldering to silver plated terminations, it is also useful where extra strength is required; it is the strongest of the low temperature SnPb alloys and several times stronger than Sn63Pb37 or Sn60Pb40. It should also wet better.
That is interesting, I’ll have to remember that.
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63/37 solder is eutectic, meaning it has no plastic phase whatsoever. So either you’re confusing the two or the 63/37 is fake.
Erm, to be pedantic, no. Eutectic means that there is a sudden, well defined transition from the liquid to the solid phase at a specific characteristic temperature, with no temperature where there is an intermediate interphase state where there is both solid and liquid present (and possibly vapour too). The solid phase, for both eutectic and non-eutectic alloys still exhibits plasticity (and elasticity too for that matter). There's more to eutectics than this (like melting point) if one wants to be truly pedantic but I'm concentrating on the most notable characteristic of a Tin-Lead eutectic and it's the use of the phrase 'plastic phase' here that I find problematic enough to moan about.
You are being pedantic for sure, but you’re also wrong. The plastic phase doesn’t refer to the plasticity of the solid phase. It refers to the slushy “interphase state”. I didn’t invent the term “plastic phase”, it’s the term ordinarily used in the solder industry to refer to said state. So if you’re going to argue with me about it, you’ll also have to argue with the entire industry...
Solder salesmen might call it 'plastic' but I'll bet that their metallurgists don't as 'plastic' has a very specific meaning in metallurgy - it's the region on a stress/strain curve where a material goes from the elastic region to where it exhibits permanent deformation (and ultimately failure) with applied stress. I think that you, and the solder salemen, are getting confused with terminology, or just being lax with it. Non eutectic alloys have what is known as a plastic melting range (behaviour that we're all familiar with, heat metal, it gets soft and plastic) where liquid and solid phases co-exist, but eutectic alloys do not exhibit a plastic melting range (this by the way is why some eutectic alloys are used for set points on some temperature scales). A melting range is not the same thing as a phase which is characterised by a state of matter, solid, liquid or gas (not solid, liquid, gas and plastic) hence the term interphase to describe when a mixture of phases exists. So, plastic melting range I would happily give you, but not plastic phase. Yes, this is now very pedantic but it's right.
By coincidence, or perhaps not, the most annoyingly pedantic man I have ever known, and used to share a flat with, Clive, was by training and trade a metallurgist. That's where I initially learned most of this mental clutter from.
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Besides soldering to silver plated terminations, it is also useful where extra strength is required; it is the strongest of the low temperature SnPb alloys and several times stronger than Sn63Pb37 or Sn60Pb40. It should also wet better.
That is interesting, I’ll have to remember that.
I have sometimes used it on printed circuit board mounted connectors and mechanical assemblies for exactly that reason.
Are you wiping down with a simple cloth or with something else?
I usually use a napkin or paper towel.
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Besides soldering to silver plated terminations, it is also useful where extra strength is required; it is the strongest of the low temperature SnPb alloys and several times stronger than Sn63Pb37 or Sn60Pb40. It should also wet better.
That is interesting, I’ll have to remember that.
I have sometimes used it on printed circuit board mounted connectors and mechanical assemblies for exactly that reason.
Are you wiping down with a simple cloth or with something else?
I usually use a napkin or paper towel.
If you're prepared to go to the expense lint-free wipes such as AF Safetiss or the ubiquitous KimWipe are the thing to use. If you examine a board under moderate magnification (say 20x) after wiping it down with a paper towel or similar you'll see lint stuck to the board, not so with the lint-free variety. The cleaner you get the board the less lint there is, but it's difficult to get rid of the last bit with paper towels. But 99.5% of the time the little lint you get left from a good paper towel is nothing to be concerned about unless you're into very high impedance or low leakage scenarios. The cost difference is enough to limit you to doing it when it's really necessary - a roll of paper towel with 150 sheets is £1, a box of AF Safetiss with 200 tissues is around the £8 mark.
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Are you wiping down with a simple cloth or with something else?
I usually use a napkin or paper towel.
If you're prepared to go to the expense lint-free wipes such as AF Safetiss or the ubiquitous KimWipe are the thing to use.
Absolutely, but in practice I use whatever is at hand.
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63/37 solder is eutectic, meaning it has no plastic phase whatsoever. So either you’re confusing the two or the 63/37 is fake.
Erm, to be pedantic, no. Eutectic means that there is a sudden, well defined transition from the liquid to the solid phase at a specific characteristic temperature, with no temperature where there is an intermediate interphase state where there is both solid and liquid present (and possibly vapour too). The solid phase, for both eutectic and non-eutectic alloys still exhibits plasticity (and elasticity too for that matter). There's more to eutectics than this (like melting point) if one wants to be truly pedantic but I'm concentrating on the most notable characteristic of a Tin-Lead eutectic and it's the use of the phrase 'plastic phase' here that I find problematic enough to moan about.
You are being pedantic for sure, but you’re also wrong. The plastic phase doesn’t refer to the plasticity of the solid phase. It refers to the slushy “interphase state”. I didn’t invent the term “plastic phase”, it’s the term ordinarily used in the solder industry to refer to said state. So if you’re going to argue with me about it, you’ll also have to argue with the entire industry...
Solder salesmen might call it 'plastic' but I'll bet that their metallurgists don't as 'plastic' has a very specific meaning in metallurgy - it's the region on a stress/strain curve where a material goes from the elastic region to where it exhibits permanent deformation (and ultimately failure) with applied stress. I think that you, and the solder salemen, are getting confused with terminology, or just being lax with it. Non eutectic alloys have what is known as a plastic melting range (behaviour that we're all familiar with, heat metal, it gets soft and plastic) where liquid and solid phases co-exist, but eutectic alloys do not exhibit a plastic melting range (this by the way is why some eutectic alloys are used for set points on some temperature scales). A melting range is not the same thing as a phase which is characterised by a state of matter, solid, liquid or gas (not solid, liquid, gas and plastic) hence the term interphase to describe when a mixture of phases exists. So, plastic melting range I would happily give you, but not plastic phase. Yes, this is now very pedantic but it's right.
Yes, in a phase diagram, it’d be most accurately called a plastic region. Don’t confuse “lax” or “confused” with the understanding that a scientifically precise usage and an everyday usage of a word aren’t the same thing. You will never win someone over by denying or rejecting the existence of the everyday usage, or by calling out someone choosing to use it.
So, what has this thread gained by your tirade on this issue? Nothing. You’ve flexed your brain nuts, we get this. So what? All you accomplished was to bury the actual point I was making to tkamiya. So thanks for that... |O
By coincidence, or perhaps not, the most annoyingly pedantic man I have ever known, and used to share a flat with, Clive, was by training and trade a metallurgist. That's where I initially learned most of this mental clutter from.
If you recognize that it’s “clutter” and “annoyingly pedantic”, then why repeat that behavior? Because yeah, it’s absolutely annoying and completely distracted from the actual point I was making: if tkamiya’s “63/37” solder had a slushy state, then it’s not eutectic, meaning it’s fake, or they are confused about which alloy had the slushy state.
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Yes, in a phase diagram, it’d be most accurately called a plastic region. Don’t confuse “lax” or “confused” with the understanding that a scientifically precise usage and an everyday usage of a word aren’t the same thing. You will never win someone over by denying or rejecting the existence of the everyday usage, or by calling out someone choosing to use it.
So, what has this thread gained by your tirade on this issue? Nothing. You’ve flexed your brain nuts, we get this. So what? All you accomplished was to bury the actual point I was making to tkamiya. So thanks for that... |O
I admitted up front, and made it quite explicit I was being pedantic, and quite obviously it was done to attempt to add some precision to what you were saying.
That you choose to treat what I've said as, and I quote, "a tirade" is entirely down to you. You were the one who chose to tell me "You are being pedantic for sure, but you’re also wrong", (did you really expect that not to garner a response) without that I'd have had nothing more to say on the subject and I did stick to the subject, I didn't start attacking you. It would appear to be your desire to be seen as 'the most right' and/or 'the most knowledgable' that pushed this on, and when you're finally proved wrong you start blaming me for derailing the thread and using the word "tirade". Look it up in the dictionary*, for a linguist you've a poor grasp on the word's meaning as it's quite clear that what I've had to say isn't a tirade, angry by definition . Either that or you are deliberately misrepresenting my behaviour in an attempt to be provocative.
Note that you are the one who has shifted from discussion of the matter at hand, the properties of solder, to attacking my behaviour. You're adding heat, but no light, to the conversation. With all that in mind, I don't intend to engage you any further on the subject beyond this defence of myself, lest I too become guilty of the same. Knowledgeable of my own weaknesses, in particular that I'm likely to pointlessly respond to you if you continue your diatribe, I'm hitting the 'ignore thread' button.
* tirade | tʌɪˈreɪd, tɪˈreɪd |
noun
a long, angry speech of criticism or accusation: a tirade of abuse.
ORIGIN
early 19th century: from French, literally ‘long speech’, from Italian tirata ‘volley’, from tirare ‘to pull’.
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Please take a timeout or take it to PM. IMHO both your contributions were valuable but once it gets personal no-one wins, least of all your audience.
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I have heard high praise for solder from Multicore but never got to use it myself. I guess Loctite owns them now.
I've been using up rolls of Multicore 60/40 since the 80s and early 90s when they were only like $9.99 for a 1lb roll, so I'd often just grab another when I was at the electronics store to have extra rolls around, always at hand. :) Great stuff. Love it. (Especially since that's what I'm most used to :) ) I'm getting very low now, though, only a couple partial (very low) rolls left. I guess I'll have to save up to do a nice big solder buy and re-stock myself.
... but Kester, Multicore and MG Chemical branded stuff have all always worked satisfactorily for me when I've used them on various jobs.
I would never buy a roll of cheap Chinese solder, though, even if the real stuff is way more than $9.99/lb now.
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EGADS!! Just looked on Digikey and the closest modern model# version to this stuff I've been using is over $50 CAD / roll!
OK, sure, now it's a 500g instead of 454g spool, but WOW! :o
I was expecting more like $35, like the last time I looked, but $52 for .032" and $54 for .024"?! :wtf:
Sure, with inflation a $10 roll in '92 would be $15-16 now, but I guess I should have stocked up back then as a lead/tin retirement fund. :)
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Yes, in a phase diagram, it’d be most accurately called a plastic region. Don’t confuse “lax” or “confused” with the understanding that a scientifically precise usage and an everyday usage of a word aren’t the same thing. You will never win someone over by denying or rejecting the existence of the everyday usage, or by calling out someone choosing to use it.
So, what has this thread gained by your tirade on this issue? Nothing. You’ve flexed your brain nuts, we get this. So what? All you accomplished was to bury the actual point I was making to tkamiya. So thanks for that... |O
I admitted up front, and made it quite explicit I was being pedantic, and quite obviously it was done to attempt to add some precision to what you were saying.
That you choose to treat what I've said as, and I quote, "a tirade" is entirely down to you. You were the one who chose to tell me "You are being pedantic for sure, but you’re also wrong", (did you really expect that not to garner a response) without that I'd have had nothing more to say on the subject and I did stick to the subject, I didn't start attacking you. It would appear to be your desire to be seen as 'the most right' and/or 'the most knowledgable' that pushed this on, and when you're finally proved wrong you start blaming me for derailing the thread and using the word "tirade". Look it up in the dictionary*, for a linguist you've a poor grasp on the word's meaning as it's quite clear that what I've had to say isn't a tirade, angry by definition . Either that or you are deliberately misrepresenting my behaviour in an attempt to be provocative.
Note that you are the one who has shifted from discussion of the matter at hand, the properties of solder, to attacking my behaviour. You're adding heat, but no light, to the conversation. With all that in mind, I don't intend to engage you any further on the subject beyond this defence of myself, lest I too become guilty of the same. Knowledgeable of my own weaknesses, in particular that I'm likely to pointlessly respond to you if you continue your diatribe, I'm hitting the 'ignore thread' button.
* tirade | tʌɪˈreɪd, tɪˈreɪd |
noun
a long, angry speech of criticism or accusation: a tirade of abuse.
ORIGIN
early 19th century: from French, literally ‘long speech’, from Italian tirata ‘volley’, from tirare ‘to pull’.
LOL. The first sentence in your reply to me ends in the word “no”. That’s not “adding”, that’s telling me I’m wrong, but a cursory survey of solder terminology confirms my usage. At no point did you actually prove me wrong, you only observed the existence of scientific vs common terminology.
As for lecturing me on language... just shut up, you’re just making a fool of yourself.
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Could we just call it quits both of you.
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60/40 "Ersin Multicore Solder" is God's own solder and I'll fight anyone who says different. >:D
Seriously, you won't find Kesler in the UK without parting with an arm or a leg. Good old British "Multicore" brand is the old reliable but is nowadays sold under the Loc-Tite brand.
Just got some of the Loctite brand from a local UK supplier. Ahhh.....perfection. This stuff works great.