Author Topic: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?  (Read 11386 times)

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Offline stitchTopic starter

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Re: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2014, 06:30:18 pm »
By counting time and using the fundamental capacitor equation I = C * dV/dt, holding I, dV or dt constant in various ways (see the earlier link about slope conversion).

Tim

That's a good answer.  Also, right on target.
 

Offline stitchTopic starter

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Re: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2014, 06:32:51 pm »
Actually my question was not about how to measure electricity, but rather how to firstly sense it so that it can subsequently be measured.

Then I think the answer to your question is "a transistor, usually a field effect transistor'.  A voltage applied to the 'gate' of a FET creates an electric field inside the channel, which either allows or prevents carriers to flow from the source to the drain, and it does it while drawing negligible current at the gate electrode.  If the gate voltage is above some threshold a large current flows and you have a one, otherwise a zero or small current flows which is zero.  You can either have a fixed threshold (as in ordinary logic gates used to implement digital logic) or a comparator that gives you a 1 if voltage A is greater than voltage B.

That's a good answer also.  That's what I was looking for - the fundamental part where the sensing begins.
 

Offline stitchTopic starter

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Re: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2014, 06:48:26 pm »
Actually my question was not about how to measure electricity, but rather how to firstly sense it so that it can subsequently be measured.
Are you willing to take "for granted" what is inside the integrated circuits?  Or are you asking about how the integrated circuits operate?

Thanks for your thoughtful answers, Richard.  You are quite right about my not wanting to "take for granted" what is inside the integrated circuit.  But I'm also not really asking about how the integrated circuits operate.  I think I am asking about what fundamental sensing comes first ... before the integrated circuit.
So let's say a doctor wants to assess his patient's heart rate.  One way he might do this is to take the patient's pulse.  To do so the doctor place his fingers on the patient's wrist.  At that point, the doctor "senses" through his fingertips the swelling movement of the patients arteries.  That's the part that I was inquiring about.  Now of course the doctor can continue and measure each pulse against his wrist watch to ultimately get the heart rate, but that is not the part that I was curious about.  I was curious about just the fingertips part ... the sensing part.
 

Offline Wytnucls

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Re: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2014, 06:58:21 pm »
The sensing part would have to be the charging capacitor. Suspend a small object with a negative charge between the plates and watch it deflect towards the positive plate as the electric field increases. Theoretically, you should be able to measure the unknown voltage, with just a stopwatch.
 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2014, 07:17:29 pm »
If you look at actual schematic diagrams of commercial DMMs, you will discover that the signal being measured goes directly into the IC (after appropriate "signal conditioning"*)  The internal Analog to Digital converter (ADC) takes the signal directly and compares it with the scaled reference to develop the numbers to display.

That is why I asked if you really wanted to get into semiconductor physics and analyze how an integrated ADC works?  I already described how a typical ADC works in a DMM (successive-approximation).  Rather like a small child guessing a number: "Is it 1?, Is it 2?  Is it 3? Is it 4?....." etc. ad.nauseum  Your quest for some similarity to how an analog meter (or a physician taking a pulse rate) rather breaks down, because the world of digital circuits really is much different than the Real World.  Things in the Digital World are frequently much more crude than in the Analog World. But since digital circuits are so many orders of magnitude faster than anything analog, you can get away with crude methods because they are very fast and don't affect the final performance of the gadget.

* By "signal conditioning" I mean scaling the voltage down to the safe operating range of the chip (or amplifying it where it is a very low voltage).  Or it means converting AC to DC using a rectifier (or a true RMS converter in higher-end meters). Or it means using a resistance to voltage converter (using a constant-current source) for measuring resistance.
 

Offline stitchTopic starter

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Re: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2014, 09:10:15 pm »
The sensing part would have to be the charging capacitor. Suspend a small object with a negative charge between the plates and watch it deflect towards the positive plate as the electric field increases. Theoretically, you should be able to measure the unknown voltage, with just a stopwatch.

Yes.  The capacitor is emerging to be the central player in what I was inquiring about - it senses a building charge over time.  For the same reason, the FET mentioned earlier by ejeffrey sounds good also.
 

Online IanB

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Re: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?
« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2014, 09:35:43 pm »
Yes.  The capacitor is emerging to be the central player in what I was inquiring about - it senses a building charge over time.

It really doesn't. When the capacitor charges up it acquires a voltage, but a voltage is what we started with at the measurement terminals. So we have just moved the problem of measuring a voltage from one place to another. Something still has to measure the voltage on the capacitor!

In physics a sensor, otherwise known as a transducer, converts a signal from one physical form to another more useful form.

So in the case of our galvanometer, a voltage across the terminals is translated into a current through the coil, which is translated into movement of the coil against a spring, which moves a needle on the display. So electric current has been transduced (converted) into a physical displacement. Electricity has been converted into movement.

In the case of a DVM the situation is slightly different. The transducer here is not converting a voltage to some other analog signal, but instead is converting it to a digital signal. A voltage is being converted into bits of information.

The sensor, or transducer, that is essential to this conversion process is, as mentioned above, the voltage comparator. This sensor is able to produce an on/off signal when one sensed input voltage is greater than another. The analog voltage signal is thus transformed into a digital information signal that answers the question, "is this voltage greater than that voltage?"

The key element of the voltage comparator is the transistor, but the transistor itself is not actually the sensor. The transistor is more like the magnet in the galvanometer: it plays an essential part, but by itself it is not enough. It needs more parts connected up the right way to make a complete measuring system.
 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2014, 09:49:57 pm »
I only looked at half a dozen schematics for commerical DMMs, but i did not see ANY of them with an input capacitor.  As IanB says, it isn't as simple as that.
 

Offline stitchTopic starter

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Re: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2014, 10:09:29 pm »
Yes.  The capacitor is emerging to be the central player in what I was inquiring about - it senses a building charge over time.

It really doesn't. When the capacitor charges up it acquires a voltage, but a voltage is what we started with at the measurement terminals. So we have just moved the problem of measuring a voltage from one place to another. Something still has to measure the voltage on the capacitor!

But doesn't the rate at which the capacitor charges up tell us something about the voltage in question (RC Time Constant)?  Can't we "compare" that rate to a know rate?  If so isn't the capacitor still fundamental?
 

Offline stitchTopic starter

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Re: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2014, 10:10:42 pm »
I only looked at half a dozen schematics for commerical DMMs, but i did not see ANY of them with an input capacitor.  As IanB says, it isn't as simple as that.

I was just about to ask you about that.
 

Online IanB

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Re: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2014, 10:14:16 pm »
But doesn't the rate at which the capacitor charges up tell us something about the voltage in question (RC Time Constant)?  Can't we "compare" that rate to a know rate?  If so isn't the capacitor still fundamental?

Imagine you have a capacitor and series resistor on your bench, and an unknown voltage. You can see how fast the capacitor charges up when you apply the voltage to it. But how will you detect the voltage on the capacitor to find the rate of increase in voltage? Logically, you will measure the voltage on the capacitor with a voltmeter as you time the rate of increase to compare with your known rate. Except...do you see the problem?
 

Offline stitchTopic starter

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Re: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2014, 10:15:39 pm »
If you haven't already guessed, I'm leaning towards the capacitor.  Besides, it rhymes:  Old school used electromagnetic phenomena to sense electricity, new school uses electrostatic phenomena to sense electricity.
 

Offline stitchTopic starter

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Re: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2014, 10:17:43 pm »
But doesn't the rate at which the capacitor charges up tell us something about the voltage in question (RC Time Constant)?  Can't we "compare" that rate to a know rate?  If so isn't the capacitor still fundamental?

Imagine you have a capacitor and series resistor on your bench, and an unknown voltage. You can see how fast the capacitor charges up when you apply the voltage to it. But how will you detect the voltage on the capacitor to find the rate of increase in voltage? Logically, you will measure the voltage on the capacitor with a voltmeter as you time the rate of increase to compare with your known rate. Except...do you see the problem?

Yes, I see the problem.  Let me think for a minute.
 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2014, 10:23:07 pm »
I only looked at half a dozen schematics for commerical DMMs, but i did not see ANY of them with an input capacitor.  As IanB says, it isn't as simple as that.

I was just about to ask you about that.

Well, the answer is that
1) A capacitor is not a "sensor".  At best, it is a "bucket".
2) An ADC that uses a R/C time constant is only ONE type of ADC, and not the kind typically found in meters (which is what you are asking about). 

You can "lean towards the capacitor" if it makes you feel better. But it doesn't really answer your question.
 

Offline stitchTopic starter

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Re: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2014, 10:47:01 pm »
But doesn't the rate at which the capacitor charges up tell us something about the voltage in question (RC Time Constant)?  Can't we "compare" that rate to a know rate?  If so isn't the capacitor still fundamental?

Imagine you have a capacitor and series resistor on your bench, and an unknown voltage. You can see how fast the capacitor charges up when you apply the voltage to it. But how will you detect the voltage on the capacitor to find the rate of increase in voltage? Logically, you will measure the voltage on the capacitor with a voltmeter as you time the rate of increase to compare with your known rate. Except...do you see the problem?

Can't the ADC convert the ramp of the charging capacitor to a digital output?  I'm not opposed to the ADC or any other part of a DVM's digital circuitry. My question has always been what happens before that.  After all, before an ADC can convert, it must have something to convert.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 10:56:35 pm by stitch »
 

Offline Len

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Re: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2014, 11:20:06 pm »
Can't the ADC convert the ramp of the charging capacitor to a digital output?  I'm not opposed to the ADC or any other part of a DVM's digital circuitry. My question has always been what happens before that.  After all, before an ADC can convert, it must have something to convert.

That capacitor is part of an integrating ADC. The "problem" Ian was referring to is, if you use an ADC to make your ADC, where do you get the other ADC from? :)

The basic answer to your original question of "what part in a DMM replaces the galvanometer?" is "the ADC", one type of which is an integrating ADC (with a capacitor and a timed voltage ramp). An ADC converts an analog voltage to a digital number. Everything else comes down to that.

To measure a voltage, apply it to the ADC and read the result. To measure anything else, convert it to a voltage and measure the voltage. Current is measured by passing the current through a known sense resistor and measuring the voltage drop. Resistance is measured by passing a known current through the resistance and measuring the voltage drop. Etc.
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Online IanB

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Re: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2014, 11:34:59 pm »
After all, before an ADC can convert, it must have something to convert.

It does have something to convert. It has the original voltage on the input terminals of the DVM. It can just convert that...
 

Offline stitchTopic starter

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Re: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2014, 12:06:37 am »
Can't the ADC convert the ramp of the charging capacitor to a digital output?  I'm not opposed to the ADC or any other part of a DVM's digital circuitry. My question has always been what happens before that.  After all, before an ADC can convert, it must have something to convert.



The basic answer to your original question of "what part in a DMM replaces the galvanometer?" is "the ADC", one type of which is an integrating ADC (with a capacitor and a timed voltage ramp).
Yes.  I accept that.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2014, 12:38:12 am »
Yes, certainly the capacitor is only as important as the surrounding circuitry allows it to be!

As an example, suppose you had an ideal constant current coming down a wire.  (So, you normally keep it grounded so it doesn't waste power, and you handle it very carefully so it doesn't start a spark -- because it will spark and arc as far as you care to open the circuit!  Ideal constant currents are fun. :) )  Suppose you have naught but your hands and some means of keeping time (a pendulum, a metronome, a stopwatch... or just counting mississippis out loud).

If you connect the current source to the capacitor, start the timer, and disconnect it after a given time, you have delivered a known amount of charge to the capacitor.  You can now measure the charge, say by connecting an electrometer.  The foil electrodes deflect in front of a scale, allowing you to read a measurement (in effect, by calling out divisions of a scale, you're performing an A-D conversion manually, which can then be written down as a finite series of digits).

You could also keep the electrometer connected, while charging the capacitor, and stop the timer when it reaches a certain charge.  Your main source of reading error is now determining how many pendulum swings occurred, or how many mississippis were spoken, or whatever.

In both cases, the electrometer scale must be calibrated, and you have two sources of errors: the ability to count time, and the ability to read a scale consistently (and its calibration).

You can combine these methods.  Perhaps you have a known current sink, so after charging the capacitor for some time, you discharge it until it reads zero again.  Compare the ratio of times, and you know the ratio of currents.  Now you no longer need to know what the delivered charge was; the electrometer scale doesn't need to have any calibration, or even any linearity, so long as it remains a one-to-one function of voltage, so you can tell when it passes the point it was initially at.

You now need a calibrated current source instead of the electrometer scale, but the idea is to swap out sources of error until you have something easily calibrated and stable.  An electrical current is easy to measure, set and calibrate, and has other advantages inside an integrated circuit.  So this is good progress.  The time measurement is still a matter, but it is actually one of the easiest and most accurate measurements that can be performed electronically.

Perhaps, when you stop the discharge (with the known current sink), you accidentally went too far: you counted one full mississippi extra.  Your time is well known (you counted a whole number, no rounding or guessing at fractions), but now the discharge is too far.  You could measure the residual with the electrometer again, but then its scale must be calibrated; and in finer divisions than before!

Suppose you connect another known accurate current source, of magnitude 1/N times the discharging one.  Then you count until the charge comes back to (or just past) zero: now you have a triple slope integrating ADC, and the counts of that last step are exactly 1/N the weight of the discharge counts.  So if you count 0-9 steps, and N=10, you go from, say, a measurement of X, to a measurement of X.Y, fully 10 times more precise.  If the current ratio N can be generated geometrically, it won't need additional calibration, another big win.

In the electronic implementation, ultimately, you have transistors (usually MOSFETs, since we're talking battery operated, most likely CMOS circuitry here), which are required to sense that the voltage has reached some value, or that it's crossed through zero, or whatever.  Whether you want to put the emphasis on one thing or another (a transistor, a capacitor, a resistor..) is up to your own interpretation.  Obviously, an instrument cannot exist unless there is both a sensing element (a transducer), and something to observe that activity, a sensor or amplifier or observer or whatever.  Concentrating on any one component is like saying a human is nothing but a brain, or a heart, or a stomach; none of which can exist on its own without the help of many supporting parts! :)

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Offline David Hess

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Re: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2014, 01:41:47 am »
But doesn't the rate at which the capacitor charges up tell us something about the voltage in question (RC Time Constant)?  Can't we "compare" that rate to a know rate?  If so isn't the capacitor still fundamental?

It does but by charging the capacitor with a current proportional to the voltage to be measured, an integrator is used, and then discharging it with the reference current, the capacitance cancels out as well as the capacitance drift over time and temperature.  Further, if the capacitor charging time is fixed at some multiple of the cycle time of the power line frequency, then power line interference will cancel out which is handy for making accurate measurements in the presence of power-line noise.

Alternatives to dual or multi-slope integration include delta-sigma conversion and voltage to frequency conversion.  All three can achieve 100,000 counts of resolution and linearity or better depending on implementation.
 

Offline Wytnucls

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Re: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?
« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2014, 09:36:35 am »
Yes.  The capacitor is emerging to be the central player in what I was inquiring about - it senses a building charge over time.

It really doesn't. When the capacitor charges up it acquires a voltage, but a voltage is what we started with at the measurement terminals. So we have just moved the problem of measuring a voltage from one place to another. Something still has to measure the voltage on the capacitor!
A dual slope integrator doesn't measure voltage directly. The input voltage is derived from the reference voltage and the charging/discharging time of the capacitor.
They are plenty of multimeters using a dual slope ADC. I have two, at least, on my bench. And yes, they have an external integrating capacitor just for that purpose, next to the IC.
 

Offline electr_peter

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Re: How does a modern digital multimeter "sense" electricity?
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2014, 10:59:22 pm »
Fundamentaly, voltage measurement procedure can be understood as cooperation of two devices - ADC and voltage reference.

ADC's job is to compare input signal to voltage reference and output proportion of input vs reference. That is, ADC on itself can only output relative reading (10%, 43% or 100%) which doesn't say anything about absolute input voltage.

ADC's relative reading is then converted to absolute reading by multiplication with voltage reference. If it is known that voltage reference for ADC is 10V and ADC outputs 76%, then input voltage is 7.6V.
ADC without some reference or reference without ADC are both useless for multimeter function.


In practice, ADC may be implemented in different ways. Voltage reference may be changed to time/capacitance/current reference - principle is still the same.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 11:03:57 pm by electr_peter »
 


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