Author Topic: Trying to solder correctly  (Read 5944 times)

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Offline SPFC

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2019, 11:23:18 pm »
Hi guys,

please...

I have a question and would like to take this topic to eliminate it.

I have a 20 watt 110 volt soldering iron.

Well, is there some problem with setting a dimmer as one of the devices to control its temperature?

Thank you
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2019, 02:42:12 am »
Quote
I have a 20 watt 110 volt soldering iron.

Well, is there some problem with setting a dimmer as one of the devices to control its temperature?

Not really. But this the dimmer is directly modulating the power of the iron, not the temp. You can repeatably alter your set temp by modulating the power, but this is not going to perform the same as a temperature-controlled station.

The temp-controlled station will bump up power to try to maintain its set temp while you are soldering. The power-controlled iron outputs the same amount of power all the time. So while soldering, the temperature sags.

While you can adjust the power and your soldering rhythm so that the temp is more or less ideal while soldering, this means that between soldering... while the iron is not being used... the temp of the iron will reach its peak. This higher temp burns the flux off and crustifies the solder on there, faster. The iron will basically require more frequent cleaning, and the tip life might be a bit lower.
 

Offline HB9EVI

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2019, 10:09:28 am »
I consider 20W as too weak for many soldering works; it maybe still works well on small pcb islands, but as soon as you're facing e.g. bigger gnd areas, you're lost with 20W; you have to excessivly heat the working area for a longer time what can cause fatal thermal stress to the component you want to solder.

It's a widespread misunderstanding to use low power irons for example for smd works - the result always is increased heat exposure to the components; not only it sucks to work like that, it can cause harm to your components and to the pcb itself.
 
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Offline SPFC

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2019, 04:22:24 am »
Quote
I have a 20 watt 110 volt soldering iron.

Well, is there some problem with setting a dimmer as one of the devices to control its temperature?

Not really. But this the dimmer is directly modulating the power of the iron, not the temp. You can repeatably alter your set temp by modulating the power, but this is not going to perform the same as a temperature-controlled station.

Yes, in this case the dimmer will be directly related to the iron power and not to the temperature.   As I said, the dimmer would possibly be one of the elements of the system.

The temp-controlled station will bump up power to try to maintain its set temp while you are soldering. The power-controlled iron outputs the same amount of power all the time. So while soldering, the temperature sags.

While you can adjust the power and your soldering rhythm so that the temp is more or less ideal while soldering, this means that between soldering... while the iron is not being used... the temp of the iron will reach its peak. This higher temp burns the flux off and crustifies the solder on there, faster. The iron will basically require more frequent cleaning, and the tip life might be a bit lower.

I understood the second paragraph roughly. The third was a disappointment.   :palm: |O

Well, I asked it because here in Brazil I accessed a web-page whose content says that electrical resistances below 40 watts are not appropriate to include a dimmer.

I consider 20W as too weak for many soldering works; it maybe still works well on small pcb islands, but as soon as you're facing e.g. bigger gnd areas, you're lost with 20W; you have to excessivly heat the working area for a longer time what can cause fatal thermal stress to the component you want to solder.

It's a widespread misunderstanding to use low power irons for example for smd works - the result always is increased heat exposure to the components; not only it sucks to work like that, it can cause harm to your components and to the pcb itself.

HB9EVI,

I already know and understand that Americans like powerfull things.   But as I am from Brazil, life here is more difficult and I won't use it for working, I don't intend to spend so much on it.   A soldering station, even buying from abroad, is expensive.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2019, 05:27:15 am »
Quote
The third was a disappointment.   :palm: |O
Well, I'm comparing how the dimmer setup would perform compared to a proper temperature controlled iron. Compared to how your iron works right now, adding a dimmer won't make it any worse. I guess I'm trying to temper your expectations of what this will do.

Quote
Well, I asked it because here in Brazil I accessed a web-page whose content says that electrical resistances below 40 watts are not appropriate to include a dimmer.
In America we measure resistance in ohms.

You're the one with the station. If you will find power-control useful on your station, you should not worry about what a random website creator thinks is appropriate.

Unless you have some strange requirements, I think you will use the dimmer only to turn down the temp while you are not using the iron. When using your 20W iron, you will probably turn it back up to full power for most things. So a dimmer might be overkill. A cheaper method of achieving this is a switch and a rectifer diode. (And another $5.00 iron to solder it.)  Then you have a half power setting for standby, to keep the iron hot when idle. This worked great on my firestick, 20 years ago.

Quote
as I am from Brazil, life here is more difficult and I won't use it for working, I don't intend to spend so much on it.
Lucky for us, arguing on the internet is free. We don't even have to waste any breath! >:D
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 06:08:51 am by KL27x »
 

Offline SPFC

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2019, 11:18:07 pm »
In America we measure resistance in ohms.

 ;D Well, the resistance is measured in Ohm in all the world, not only in USA.   It's world standard. :D

Unless you have some strange requirements, I think you will use the dimmer only to turn down the temp while you are not using the iron. When using your 20W iron, you will probably turn it back up to full power for most things. So a dimmer might be overkill. A cheaper method of achieving this is a switch and a rectifer diode. (And another $5.00 iron to solder it.)  Then you have a half power setting for standby, to keep the iron hot when idle. This worked great on my firestick, 20 years ago.

I turned on the soldering iron to check the maximum temperature limit and the display showed about 377º.   My intention is to do it works at a "more stable" temperature that is just below 200° C. A temperature that only serves to melt the Sn-Ch.

Another question: Do you know how to prevent darkening of the metal part?

Thank you!
 

Offline L_Euler

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2019, 01:03:29 am »
Hi guys,

please...

I have a question and would like to take this topic to eliminate it.

I have a 20 watt 110 volt soldering iron.

Well, is there some problem with setting a dimmer as one of the devices to control its temperature?

Thank you

I did some stained glass work in a former life and found that my iron ran way too hot.  I was constantly burning up tips.  Then I put it on a variac (fancy light dimmer) and got the tip under control, but then the tip didn't have enough thermal mass to maintain tip temp during a lead run on the glass.  So, when the iron was idle I ran the variac at about 60% to keep it in a ready state.  Then just as was about to use it I ran the variac all the way up so the tip would remain at temp under use.  How does all this apply to you?  A light dimmer will not maintain temperature between idle and use. It only sets the operating power.  If you go this route you will find yourself constantly adjusting to balance between burning up the tip while idle and maintaining adequate tip temperature while soldering.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 01:06:33 am by L_Euler »
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2019, 06:05:47 am »
^and his iron is only 20W, 377C. This why I suggested a switch will be  near as good as a dimmer. Witb you variac you ended up using primarily 2 settings. 60% and 100%. with a switch and a diode, you get 50% and 100%.
Quote
I have never had a temperature controlled iron. I have developed a certain awareness and sense. If the iron has not been used in a while I turn it off or I may blow on it to cool it if I know I will be using it shortly. If I am soldering something that needs more heat I wait a bit if I have just been using it.
100% agree, temp control is not necessary. A superhot firestick can do anything. You prevent lifting traces and burning compoments by controlling dwell time. The major benefit of temp control is you get to keep the iron at a lower temp for the 90% of the time you are placing components or moving between components. And thusly, you do not need to stop to clean the tip nearly as often.

SPFC, there is no way you will do any normal, practical soldering at 200C. With a large mass tip, you might solder at 300C. With a pointed conical, you might need the full 377C. The temp of the tip drops as soon as you touch it to a heatsink (i.e., the joints you are making.) It doesnt matter how much power and magic beans and PID and $1000's of price of the station. You cannot solder stuff with 200C set temp with any of today's irons, cuz that is not how things work. We dont have irons that sense temp of the joint, only they can sense the base of the tip. Let alone your iron is only power controlled.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 06:09:07 am by KL27x »
 

Offline Jwillis

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2019, 07:14:48 am »
If you can afford a soldering station then go for it. The benefit is they can be put in a standby mode which lengthens the life of the tips.Heat accelerates oxidation.  But if you can't ,look for a minimum 60Wsoldering iron with a steel tip .Steel tips are copper inside, plated with stainless steel or iron so they last longer. Pure copper tips don't last as long and are more maintenance .
Stainless steel or Copper dish scrub pads will do in a pinch for a tip cleaner. Wet sponges are alright but if your not careful plastic ones can be a real pain for carboning up your tip. Natural sponge works a  little better.
I use a small extra pot of flux to do a "hot dip" clean once in a while before a good re tinning.Do in a well ventilated area if your concerned about the smoke.
If your into it there are some interesting hot iron hacks on the internet to make them temperature controlled.
Using a variac isn't a very good idea because your just lowering the wattage of your iron when you lower the voltage so it just makes things worse.
I've not tried this myself but But apparently you can increase the tip wattage a little bit by wrapping copper wire around the tip base to make it thicker.So the tip holds it's temperature a little longer I guess.
Sometimes we need to do some unorthodox methods to get by.   
 

Offline macboy

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2019, 02:26:07 pm »
If you can afford a soldering station then go for it. The benefit is they can be put in a standby mode which lengthens the life of the tips.Heat accelerates oxidation.  But if you can't ,look for a minimum 60Wsoldering iron with a steel tip .Steel tips are copper inside, plated with stainless steel or iron so they last longer. Pure copper tips don't last as long and are more maintenance .
Stainless steel or Copper dish scrub pads will do in a pinch for a tip cleaner. Wet sponges are alright but if your not careful plastic ones can be a real pain for carboning up your tip. Natural sponge works a  little better.
I use a small extra pot of flux to do a "hot dip" clean once in a while before a good re tinning.Do in a well ventilated area if your concerned about the smoke.
If your into it there are some interesting hot iron hacks on the internet to make them temperature controlled.
Using a variac isn't a very good idea because your just lowering the wattage of your iron when you lower the voltage so it just makes things worse.
I've not tried this myself but But apparently you can increase the tip wattage a little bit by wrapping copper wire around the tip base to make it thicker.So the tip holds it's temperature a little longer I guess.
Sometimes we need to do some unorthodox methods to get by.   

Soldering tips are never plated with stainless steel, only with plain iron. Solder will not bond to stainless. On high quality tips, some areas will be additionally chromium plated to prevent solder from sticking there, so that it only ever wets the working area of the tip. Sometimes, only a very small area may be wetable (not chromium plated); I have a 'micro hoof' tip with a wetable area of less than 1 mm2.

If you need extra thermal mass for bigger jobs, use a large chisel tip.

NEVER use plastic sponges for wiping a solder tip. Only use cellulose. Purpose made sponges are best and are not expensive, but kitchen sponges (of cellulose) work fine. Just make sure to rinse them very very well, as they are usually sold dampened with glycerin or something which keeps them soft in the package.  It is best to dampen the sponge with distilled water, since minerals and chlorine found in tap water are bad for the tip. Distilled water is cheap, so there is little excuse.  Never "wet" the sponge, only "dampen" it. It should be just damp enough to be supple. If you first soak the sponge, then squeeze out as much water as possible, this is about the right dampness. It prevents the sponge from becoming scorched without thermally shocking the tip.

Periodically remove the tip from the heater element and clean both. Crud that builds up over time acts as an insulator. Inspect your tip to check that it has kept its shape. If the business end of the tip is deformed, then: you may be using excessive pressure on the tip, and/or the copper is erroded away under the plating. Over time one learns that the tip never needs to be pressed into the work, but only placed onto it. This is the single most important thing to both preserve tip life and prevent damage to pads on the PCB.

The best performing soldering irons dispense with the problematic heater-to-tip thermal interface entirely, and build the heater right into the replaceable tip. This makes tips quite a lot more expensive, but the performance is consistently excellent.
 
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Offline FreddieChopin

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2019, 06:07:21 pm »
Soldering is a lot like TIG welding so if you master one you'll easy pickup another.  :-+
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2019, 08:30:29 pm »
I consider 20W as too weak for many soldering works; it maybe still works well on small pcb islands, but as soon as you're facing e.g. bigger gnd areas, you're lost with 20W; you have to excessivly heat the working area for a longer time what can cause fatal thermal stress to the component you want to solder.

It's a widespread misunderstanding to use low power irons for example for smd works - the result always is increased heat exposure to the components; not only it sucks to work like that, it can cause harm to your components and to the pcb itself.

HB9EVI,

I already know and understand that Americans like powerfull things.   But as I am from Brazil, life here is more difficult and I won't use it for working, I don't intend to spend so much on it.   A soldering station, even buying from abroad, is expensive.
I'm not sure why you felt it appropriate to bash on Americans; the advice that HB9EVI (who isn't American) gave you is factually correct, and has nothing to do with preferences (and even less to do with stereotypes).
 

Offline Old Printer

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2019, 09:36:44 pm »
I have used both the newer brass wool or whatever it is and the damp sponge, sometimes I have both ready at the same time. I have found there are different qualities of the brass wool. Get some from one of the major manufacturers like Hakko. I bought a cheap knock-off brass wool cleaner and it did not work nearly as well as the good stuff.
 

Offline Shock

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2019, 06:04:47 am »
I have used both the newer brass wool or whatever it is and the damp sponge, sometimes I have both ready at the same time. I have found there are different qualities of the brass wool. Get some from one of the major manufacturers like Hakko. I bought a cheap knock-off brass wool cleaner and it did not work nearly as well as the good stuff.

If you have the cheap stuff still, test it to see if it's magnetic. Real brass wool should not be magnetic. Genuine Hakko wool will also have flux added.
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Offline macboy

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2019, 02:03:45 pm »
I have used both the newer brass wool or whatever it is and the damp sponge, sometimes I have both ready at the same time. I have found there are different qualities of the brass wool. Get some from one of the major manufacturers like Hakko. I bought a cheap knock-off brass wool cleaner and it did not work nearly as well as the good stuff.
I bought a 10-pack of Thermaltronics brand brass wool things ("Thermaltronics BC-10") on Amazon for just a few dollars, so "proper" ones do not need to be expensive. I do use them, but most of the time, I prefer the damp sponge. I am slowly warming up to using the brass more frequently. It takes time to re-train an old brain.

A neat trick that you sometimes see is a layer of hard rosin at the bottom of the brass wool holder. If your tip gets especially nasty, you can press it through the brass wool, right into that rosin layer, which eats away the oxides. Then use the brass to remove the smoking rosin, and the tip is nice and fresh. It works great. A soldering iron/heat gun combo I bought a few years ago came with this setup, and at first I didn't understand why the rosin was there. It seems obvious once you know.
 
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2019, 01:57:02 am »
^The 888 stand comes with a sponge and brass wool. I took out the sponge and replaced it with a piece of FR-4, covered in rosin. Honestly, I don't use it too much for cleaning/freshing the tip. It's handy when I need to get only a very tiny bit of solder on the tip of the iron. Flick the bigger blob of solder off the iron onto this board, and it will break up into tiny solder balls that can be picked up. This completely removes my infrequent need of fine solderwire. I mostly use 0.064" for just about anything, and 99% what I solder is fine pitch SMD parts. The smallest I have is 0.032", and I haven't used any of it in years.

I don't need either sponge or wool for oxidation. I run low enough temp that my tips just don't oxidize very often; I address that problem maybe twice a year. The wool is for scraping off burnt rosin and for removing excess SMD parts from the tip.

If you run your iron hot and dry enough to actually oxidize while you're soldering, it's possible that a damp sponge might work better for you. The theory I have heard, anyhow, is that the thermal shock is supposed to help remove the oxide layer.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 02:18:49 am by KL27x »
 

Offline Audioguru again

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2019, 03:13:35 am »
Hee, hee. You need to learn about how high to drip the solder from down to a solder joint.
I have always used 63/37 flux core solder and never 60/40 and have always user a Weller fixed temperature controlled soldering iron and never a cheap one with no temperature control and never one that uses a Mickey Mouse light dimmer circuit for a variable uncontrolled temperature.
 

Offline macboy

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2019, 03:16:45 pm »
...
I don't need either sponge or wool for oxidation. I run low enough temp that my tips just don't oxidize very often; I address that problem maybe twice a year. The wool is for scraping off burnt rosin and for removing excess SMD parts from the tip.

If you run your iron hot and dry enough to actually oxidize while you're soldering, it's possible that a damp sponge might work better for you. The theory I have heard, anyhow, is that the thermal shock is supposed to help remove the oxide layer.
I don't control the temperature of my iron, Metcal does. I normally use the common 1xx series tips which are nominally 700 F (370 C). Personally I feel that they are too hot, but I am an amateur and they are the pros, so I defer to them. My tips very rarely have issues, but when reworking Pb-free and/or using solder wire with non-rosin-based flux (no clean), they occasionally get a weird film that's difficult to wet or to wipe away. A quick plunge into rosin followed by a good tinning with Pb solder (Kester 44 60/40) always cures that. It's far less harsh than those little tins of "tip tinner" which usually have ammonium chloride flux to chemically strip badly oxidized tips.
 

Offline FreddieChopin

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2019, 10:39:01 am »
Mickey Mouse light dimmer circuit for a variable uncontrolled temperature.

What is mickey mouse light dimmer?  :wtf: Is it from lamp shaped like mickey mouse?
 

Offline MarkR42

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2019, 09:52:43 pm »
@macboy thanks for the tip about cellulose sponges, I often used cellulose sponges (like washing up etc) for soldering, but I didn't realise they ship them with some stuff (glycerin) etc, built-in, but it's obvious now you mention it.
 

Offline Mp3

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2019, 08:40:15 am »
I know a lot of folks have given up on me.

https://imgur.com/a/EHAevP1



"It's always too soon to quit."

Hi OP,

I feel obliged to answer as i am one that has trouble applying a lot of theory i read about to real life situations.

soldering was particularly an uphill battle for me. I also started with a radio shack iron which i later learned when i got my first decent iron (a hakko) most of my projects that didnt work ended up being due to poor soldering or burning from the fixed temperature iron....

another tip i didnt realize for too long is to keep the tip tinned, and to clean it off so theres just enough solder on there then add a tiny bit more, as lack of solder on the tip prevents heat transfer and increases your chance of causing heat damage from keeping the tip there too long

the key is really just to tin the tip, put a good amount of pressure on the point to solder, add a bit of solder to the area and poke the point with solder until you see the solder is melting it, making sure the tip doesnt get dried out, and it should be not bad at all.

you shouldnt need to make solder bridges -but- it looks like the board you are trying to solder too doesnt really have much copper.... at all... so you may be having difficulty simply on account of having a hard time getting solder to stick to anything i assume?

I may be very bad at EE but I am a good solderer now. I love my ts100.
High school graduate
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2019, 09:31:11 am »
Hi OP,
Unfortunately the original poster left the building awhile ago, after posting several topics about his bench grinder, which he had dangerously modified, by replacing the e-stop with a crappy toggle switch and not earthing it properly. People tried to tell him what we was doing was very dangerous, as it could kill him or other people, but he chose to take offence and left the forum. I hope he's OK and he either saw sense and did the modification properly, gave up, or the bench grinder failed safe.
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Trying to solder correctly
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2019, 03:02:27 pm »
another tip i didnt realize for too long is to keep the tip tinned, and to clean it off so theres just enough solder on there then add a tiny bit more, as lack of solder on the tip prevents heat transfer and increases your chance of causing heat damage from keeping the tip there too long

the key is really just to tin the tip, put a good amount of pressure on the point to solder, add a bit of solder to the area and poke the point with solder until you see the solder is melting it, making sure the tip doesnt get dried out, and it should be not bad at all.

you shouldnt need to make solder bridges -but- it looks like the board you are trying to solder too doesnt really have much copper.... at all... so you may be having difficulty simply on account of having a hard time getting solder to stick to anything i assume?.
I’m not gonna go into too much detail, since the soldering tutorial on YouTube by Pace Worldwide is, frankly, unbeatable as an initial resource.

But FYI, applying pressure with the iron is a definite no-no. Use a slightly larger thermal bridge (the extra bit of solder applied to the tip just before beginning a joint) instead, as well as choosing an appropriate tip geometry, held at a good angle to make good thermal contact with the joint.

And I don’t know what you’re talking about the board “not having much copper”. You can plainly see the sets of traces on that perfboard. And the solder doesn’t care how thick the copper is, with regards to it sticking or not.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 03:04:41 pm by tooki »
 


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