Want to start making my own circuit board where to start

[tggzzz]

Looks like @Beamin isn't afraid of HCl after all. Actually, he's doing weird things with it. 
Well, the conclusion is: ferric chloride lobbyists has lost the debate ! 

This is not about winning or losing, but about maximum safety - not only Beamin (who did not mentioned the "minority fact" that he studding chemistry) reads this thread.

Yes indeed.

(But I would replace "maximum" with "appropriate proportionate")

[Zero999]

Indeed, but there is a need to keep a perspective of which risks are most likely to hurt you badly. It is human nature to downplay the importance of everyday risks, and to concentrate on rare risks.

Hence at my age merely living exposes me to 75-200 micromorts per day. ( https://plus.maths.org/content/os/issue55/features/risk/index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort ) That means it is rational for me to take more risks than I was younger.

That site ignores the benefits of taking extra risks, for example a car may safer, in terms of the chance of dying per mile, than walking and cycling, but those who are more active, have a lower risk of life threatening health problems, such as heart disease and diabetes.

A similar thing could probably be said about young people, who do risky experiments: they have  higher chance of being killed, as a result of said experiments, but also a greater chance of getting a good job, which leads to better health and a longer life expectancy.

[tggzzz]

Indeed, but there is a need to keep a perspective of which risks are most likely to hurt you badly. It is human nature to downplay the importance of everyday risks, and to concentrate on rare risks.

Hence at my age merely living exposes me to 75-200 micromorts per day. ( https://plus.maths.org/content/os/issue55/features/risk/index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort ) That means it is rational for me to take more risks than I was younger.

That site ignores the benefits of taking extra risks, for example a car may safer, in terms of the chance of dying per mile, than walking and cycling, but those who are more active, have a lower risk of life threatening health problems, such as heart disease and diabetes.

A similar thing could probably be said about young people, who do risky experiments: they have  higher chance of being killed, as a result of said experiments, but also a greater chance of getting a good job, which leads to better health and a longer life expectancy.

The reason for posting the URL was so that people could understand what a micromort is. The site does not attempt to quantify all risks (let alone suggest courses of action!), and hence doesn't "ignore" them.

There are far better and more direct reasons for getting young people to do "risky things" than merely possibly getting a better job:

• when, not if, they make mistakes, the mistakes will be in somewhat controlled circumstances and will probably have less serious consequences
• they learn to assess risks, balance risks/rewards, and to think about how to ameliorate risks
• they will be less inclined to see any attraction in "standard teenager risks", e.g. riding a motorcycle too fast

It is possible that those qualities will enable them to get a job they enjoy more - partly because they know what they enjoy, partly because they can demonstrate (cf merely claim) mature responsible behaviour.

[sasa]

There are far better and more direct reasons for getting young people to do "risky things" than merely possibly getting a better

There is one big problem with that - it will learn not to appreciate not only their own life, but no body else. And then it is open path to walk over dead bodies and use any means to achieve any goal they imagine... The history is full of such people.

Etc, etc...

Perhaps it is better to open new topic in "General chat", as difference between controlled environment experimentation and life dangerous experimentation is indeed diametrically opposite and deserve it's own discussion.

[tggzzz]

There are far better and more direct reasons for getting young people to do "risky things" than merely possibly getting a better

There is one big problem with that - it will learn not to appreciate not only their own life, but no body else.

Those two behaviours are orthogonal.

And then it is open path to walk over dead bodies and use any means to achieve any goal they imagine... The history is full of such people.

Arguably that is more likely with those people that haven't been exposed to risk, and therefore haven't learned how to assess and deal with risk.

[Zero999]

Indeed, but there is a need to keep a perspective of which risks are most likely to hurt you badly. It is human nature to downplay the importance of everyday risks, and to concentrate on rare risks.

Hence at my age merely living exposes me to 75-200 micromorts per day. ( https://plus.maths.org/content/os/issue55/features/risk/index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort ) That means it is rational for me to take more risks than I was younger.

That site ignores the benefits of taking extra risks, for example a car may safer, in terms of the chance of dying per mile, than walking and cycling, but those who are more active, have a lower risk of life threatening health problems, such as heart disease and diabetes.

A similar thing could probably be said about young people, who do risky experiments: they have  higher chance of being killed, as a result of said experiments, but also a greater chance of getting a good job, which leads to better health and a longer life expectancy.

The reason for posting the URL was so that people could understand what a micromort is. The site does not attempt to quantify all risks (let alone suggest courses of action!), and hence doesn't "ignore" them.

There are far better and more direct reasons for getting young people to do "risky things" than merely possibly getting a better job:

• when, not if, they make mistakes, the mistakes will be in somewhat controlled circumstances and will probably have less serious consequences
• they learn to assess risks, balance risks/rewards, and to think about how to ameliorate risks
• they will be less inclined to see any attraction in "standard teenager risks", e.g. riding a motorcycle too fast

In theory yes, but I think you've overlooked psychology. People often don't think rationally in the heat of the moment, when adrenaline is involved. I'm quite sure if you showed a group of teenagers, a video of someone driving dangerously and killing others as a result, they'd all condom the driver, but in reality, some of them will go on to drive dangerously, regardless of what they've said in the past. Once a testosterone pumped teenager sits behind the wheel and experiences adrenaline when driving fast, they get rewarded for their risky behaviour and do it again, until something happens, usually a near miss, then they calm down for awhile.

This flies in the face of what you said earlier, about being older, means it makes more sense for you to take risks, than a younger person, when in reality the young are more prone to risky behaviour. Perhaps younger people have more to gain from taking risks?

[tggzzz]

Indeed, but there is a need to keep a perspective of which risks are most likely to hurt you badly. It is human nature to downplay the importance of everyday risks, and to concentrate on rare risks.

Hence at my age merely living exposes me to 75-200 micromorts per day. ( https://plus.maths.org/content/os/issue55/features/risk/index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort ) That means it is rational for me to take more risks than I was younger.

That site ignores the benefits of taking extra risks, for example a car may safer, in terms of the chance of dying per mile, than walking and cycling, but those who are more active, have a lower risk of life threatening health problems, such as heart disease and diabetes.

A similar thing could probably be said about young people, who do risky experiments: they have  higher chance of being killed, as a result of said experiments, but also a greater chance of getting a good job, which leads to better health and a longer life expectancy.

The reason for posting the URL was so that people could understand what a micromort is. The site does not attempt to quantify all risks (let alone suggest courses of action!), and hence doesn't "ignore" them.

There are far better and more direct reasons for getting young people to do "risky things" than merely possibly getting a better job:

• when, not if, they make mistakes, the mistakes will be in somewhat controlled circumstances and will probably have less serious consequences
• they learn to assess risks, balance risks/rewards, and to think about how to ameliorate risks
• they will be less inclined to see any attraction in "standard teenager risks", e.g. riding a motorcycle too fast

In theory yes, but I think you've overlooked psychology. People often don't think rationally in the heat of the moment, when adrenaline is involved. I'm quite sure if you showed a group of teenagers, a video of someone driving dangerously and killing others as a result, they'd all condom the driver, but in reality, some of them will go on to drive dangerously, regardless of what they've said in the past. Once a testosterone pumped teenager sits behind the wheel and experiences adrenaline when driving fast, they get rewarded for their risky behaviour and do it again, until something happens, usually a near miss, then they calm down for awhile.

Sigh. The training and controlled exposure to risks is the best way I know to ensure that people aren't attracted to chasing adrenaline dangerously, and in the heat of the moment people aren't overwhelmed and do act rationally. If you know of any better way, do tell us all.

I know that worked extremely well with my daughter (including when her life was in imminent peril), and with her friends that had similar training and exposure. OTOH, those that didn't...

This flies in the face of what you said earlier, about being older, means it makes more sense for you to take risks, than a younger person, when in reality the young are more prone to risky behaviour. Perhaps younger people have more to gain from taking risks?

Sigh. Younger people being more prone to taking risks and it not being silly for older people to take risks are two completely orthogonal issues; they cannot be compared.

[Zero999]

Indeed, but there is a need to keep a perspective of which risks are most likely to hurt you badly. It is human nature to downplay the importance of everyday risks, and to concentrate on rare risks.

Hence at my age merely living exposes me to 75-200 micromorts per day. ( https://plus.maths.org/content/os/issue55/features/risk/index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort ) That means it is rational for me to take more risks than I was younger.

That site ignores the benefits of taking extra risks, for example a car may safer, in terms of the chance of dying per mile, than walking and cycling, but those who are more active, have a lower risk of life threatening health problems, such as heart disease and diabetes.

A similar thing could probably be said about young people, who do risky experiments: they have  higher chance of being killed, as a result of said experiments, but also a greater chance of getting a good job, which leads to better health and a longer life expectancy.

The reason for posting the URL was so that people could understand what a micromort is. The site does not attempt to quantify all risks (let alone suggest courses of action!), and hence doesn't "ignore" them.

There are far better and more direct reasons for getting young people to do "risky things" than merely possibly getting a better job:

• when, not if, they make mistakes, the mistakes will be in somewhat controlled circumstances and will probably have less serious consequences
• they learn to assess risks, balance risks/rewards, and to think about how to ameliorate risks
• they will be less inclined to see any attraction in "standard teenager risks", e.g. riding a motorcycle too fast

In theory yes, but I think you've overlooked psychology. People often don't think rationally in the heat of the moment, when adrenaline is involved. I'm quite sure if you showed a group of teenagers, a video of someone driving dangerously and killing others as a result, they'd all condom the driver, but in reality, some of them will go on to drive dangerously, regardless of what they've said in the past. Once a testosterone pumped teenager sits behind the wheel and experiences adrenaline when driving fast, they get rewarded for their risky behaviour and do it again, until something happens, usually a near miss, then they calm down for awhile.

Sigh. The training and controlled exposure to risks is the best way I know to ensure that people aren't attracted to chasing adrenaline dangerously, and in the heat of the moment people aren't overwhelmed and do act rationally. If you know of any better way, do tell us all.

I know that worked extremely well with my daughter (including when her life was in imminent peril), and with her friends that had similar training and exposure. OTOH, those that didn't...

This flies in the face of what you said earlier, about being older, means it makes more sense for you to take risks, than a younger person, when in reality the young are more prone to risky behaviour. Perhaps younger people have more to gain from taking risks?

Sigh. Younger people being more prone to taking risks and it not being silly for older people to take risks are two completely orthogonal issues; they cannot be compared.

It looks like we agree.

Do you have any sons?

[Beamin]

Few things:
HCl(aq)-> H+ and Cl(-) chlorine is an oxidizer with a charge of -1 because it has 7 valance electrons and things become "balanced" at 8.

Most people on the internet that post about things being so dangerous have never worked with them; only reading a Wikipedia article or maybe an MSDS. The HCl fumes is a good example. Your body doesn't let you breathe in the HCl gas. Its like trying to stick your hand in fire as soon as it gets close you jerk back involuntarily. Yes you can breathe in HCl but even in a room full of it you would probably hold your breath until you passed out. Anyone who has spent 5 minutes with the stuff would know that. I tend to ignore the "its so dangerous you should NEVER do that" people because they fear what they don't understand. That's how you get hurt.

People also have to realize that no matter what you say they are going to do it anyways. So instead of trying to talk them out of it provide useful info on the subject so they can make educated risks. Its like telling your kid to wait until marriage for sex to prevent them from getting STD's. Instead of telling them what STDs are you just tell them no sleep overs and go to church. Since you wasted your time preaching abstinence your kid could get aids unknowingly then spread it around because you assumed that its a perfect world where abstinence only is realistic.

Maximum safety is a fallacy. If you are going for maximum safety you are not going to make your own circuit boards. You aren't even going to make your own circuits as you could get shocked, burnt, or start a fire. You won't get anywhere in life if you don't take some risks.

As mike rowe from dirty jobs says "safety second" because if safety was first you wouldn't be out catching crabs or changing light bulbs on bridges or antennas. Nothing risked is nothing lost, but more importantly nothing gained.

I got to where I was in life by taking risks. Sure they were calculated and looking back I wouldn't take them again but I'm really glad I did.

As an aside I have got the HCl and 3% peroxide on my skin many times I just washed it off. If you have ever worked with it you would know that. If I was using H2SO4 and peroxide that would be a very different story but you need to let people know that. If you just say ALL acid is super dangerous to get on your skin without providing all the facts that becomes dangerous. Think if someone told you ALL acids are dangerous; then they spill HCl on their skin and not much happens. Then they think "OK they were just over reacting about safety". So they make some piranha solution and get that on their skin and have to go to the ER. By not letting them take the risk with HCl you just created a bad culture of safety.

There are youtube videos out where this stupid kid puts iPhones into things like lava and other destructive things. He melts crayons on his stove and it catches on fire. He freaks out and starts asking the camera saying "guys what do I do?". HES ASKING THE CAMERA OUT OF DESPERATION!!!! He doesn't think to put the lid on or put it in the stove so he nearly burns his house down trying to put it in the sink. Then he makes piranha solution with NO GLOVES. Thats just plain STUPID. No doubt others will try the experiment like he did and wont be so lucky. The it will be that much harder for me to order chemicals because a stupid news reporter says how "kids can order this off the internet then die!!!"

[M4trix]

@Beamin,

is that you or someone hacked your account ? 

[Beamin]

@Beamin,

is that you or someone hacked your account ? 

What do you mean?

[M4trix]

Just a joke mate ! 

[Beamin]

Just a joke mate ! 

Yes I tend to surprise people by figuring out things that they think I'm clueless about. I often fain ignorance to get out of doing monkey work. Never tell someone you can fix computers. They will be lined up for repairs for you to get the Babylon tool bar off their 10yo laptop.

[tggzzz]

The HCl fumes is a good example. Your body doesn't let you breathe in the HCl gas. Its like trying to stick your hand in fire as soon as it gets close you jerk back involuntarily. Yes you can breathe in HCl but even in a room full of it you would probably hold your breath until you passed out. Anyone who has spent 5 minutes with the stuff would know that.

Maximum safety is a fallacy. If you are going for maximum safety you are not going to make your own circuit boards. You aren't even going to make your own circuits as you could get shocked, burnt, or start a fire. You won't get anywhere in life if you don't take some risks.

As an aside I have got the HCl and 3% peroxide on my skin many times I just washed it off. ... If I was using H2SO4 and peroxide that would be a very different story but you need to let people know that. If you just say ALL acid is super dangerous to get on your skin without providing all the facts that becomes dangerous. Think if someone told you ALL acids are dangerous; then they spill HCl on their skin and not much happens. Then they think "OK they were just over reacting about safety". So they make some piranha solution and get that on their skin and have to go to the ER. By not letting them take the risk with HCl you just created a bad culture of safety.

Yes.

I haven't spilled HCl/3% peroxide etching solution on my hand, but your statement feels right, as do the sulphuric acid statements.

Recognition, understanding, avoidance and amelioration of risks is a key life lesson - and that's true of electronics, chemical, driving, flying, exercise, financial, relationship, etc etc risks!

[sasa]

People also have to realize that no matter what you say they are going to do it anyways. So instead of trying to talk them out of it provide useful info on the subject so they can make educated risks. Its like telling your kid to wait until marriage for sex to prevent them from getting STD's. Instead of telling them what STDs are you just tell them no sleep overs and go to church. Since you wasted your time preaching abstinence your kid could get aids unknowingly then spread it around because you assumed that its a perfect world where abstinence only is realistic.

That is actually quite good example.  And because many people (especially kids) do extremely stupid things knowing nothing about risk and protection they jump into something carelessly (copying older as monkeys) and rely on some troll's "infos" on internet ("articles", forum, wikipedia etc), instead to get information from right sources.

Go to the restaurant, for instance, and order something to drink. For 1 Euro and 5 minute break you may get Hepatitis C and STD some other as well. On opposite example, go to the dentist to get rid of caries and you may easily get similar. Buy food at some place you always visit and you may get food poisoning and die as well. Go to hospital to make simple operation and you can be dead from hospital-acquired infections. Etc... These are not examples, but real events and real people.

Piloting, gliding, driving, riding motor/bike, cross the road etc... All the same, the risk is always present.

The main point is, that there is many things that is not under your control and instead, must to trust some idiot on word that he done his job correctly, trust always by default and hope to the best, or learn their job as well to recognize symptoms can affect on your life as well. What you can control yourself, you doing it the best you can (learning in well controlled environment ) or not doing it at all. If want something to learn, learn it from right sources - do not rely on "infos" from internet made by unknown credibility person(s).

In short, you can risk by many ways jumping into uncontrolled and controlled situations - you, your son/daughter, ... can get hurt badly or die. Then what is the point ? The whole life, every second is risk assessment, decision and action. Otherwise, you may sit in your house safe and sound and wait to die by natural cause, earthquake, could rob you, kill you or a plane could hit your house...

Honestly, your approach keeping out information that you studding chemistry and asking at first such banal questions with false conclusions, then revealing yourself as an expert in chemistry and self answering is not proper way at all. Always keep in mind that many actual beginners read this! And many of them are not capable yet to "digest" or distinguish what is really important and what not in handling HCl. For them it is the best approach the safest way (ordering finished PCBs or at least using Ferric Chloride).

Maximum safety is a fallacy. If you are going for maximum safety you are not going to make your own circuit boards. You aren't even going to make your own circuits as you could get shocked, burnt, or start a fire. You won't get anywhere in life if you don't take some risks.

Maximum safety, well educated about the matter and maximum attention is the key when handle hazardous materials, especially for hobbyists. Let review briefly my own "fails" experience in electronic as a hobbyist:

When started, I have blow up some fuses, LEDs, burned some resistors, ICs, short it, etc... - all in controlled experiments and low voltage circuits.

Accidents: I had I or II degree burnt from iron when started SMD soldering under magnified glass (nothing serious, just briefly tip of iron touch), slip few drops on Cupric Chloride on concrete when moved etched PCB to container with baking soda, few times inhale fumes from soldering, did inhale some HCl when prepare Cupric Chloride bath...

Nothing serious really, but these "accidents" happens when I was over competent considering that all is completely under my control or had less attention - these mistakes may easily get quite worst... I'm still doing PCBs, repair my own devices... However, did not touch old CRT TV (even it is rich of parts may be quite useful), as I do not have tools to handle high voltage from cathode, power supplies, and similar... 

All according my current knowledge and practice as a hobbyist in electronic, I do not reach over my limits. In my profession however, I push myself out of limit all the time - that is called progress, doing as well other hobbies... Otherwise I would do some boring physical job whole my life all over again and nothing else.

No doubt others will try the experiment like he did and wont be so lucky.

Exactly the point here. Many beginners in etching reading this will now say: "Nah, some people here says to be extreme caution but other says HCl is a peace of sh... What a bunch of morons! I could do some pranks with my self, my brother/sister..." 

Well done! 

As well, there is many videos on Youtube move PCB right out of etchant (without neutralization) under tap water and right to the sink, actually they dump down the drain right away whole etchant without neutralization...

You have also wrote:

Ferric Chloride seems to be the best chemical except for its not safe to dump down the drain but I can manage safe disposal.

Then:

I like HCl because there's no toxic waste. But are there some methods this won't work with?

"Ferric Chloride seems to be the best chemical except for its not safe to dump down the drain but I can manage safe disposal"  Then: "HCl produce no toxic waste" ?!

And then you claim you studying chemistry and self answering claiming that you love to shock people?

All that is absolutely irresponsible from you - there is no pranks with extremely hazardous materials, especially with other people may get all that as granted.

If that is true, you must be in early 20's and do not know strict laws regulative about handling hazardous material. BTW, I could  be your father by age.

[tggzzz]

The main point is, that there is many things that is not under your control and instead, must to trust some idiot on word that he done his job correctly, trust always by default and hope to the best, or learn their job as well to recognize symptoms can affect on your life as well.

My motto, one of three that are worth remembering, is "trust, but verify". That implies you know what ought to be done.

Maximum safety is a fallacy. If you are going for maximum safety you are not going to make your own circuit boards. You aren't even going to make your own circuits as you could get shocked, burnt, or start a fire. You won't get anywhere in life if you don't take some risks.

Maximum safety, well educated about the matter and maximum attention is the key when handle hazardous materials, especially for hobbyists. Let review briefly my own "fails" experience in electronic as a hobbyist:
...

I think the word "maximum" is being used in different meanings. Despite claiming that "maximum safety" is key, you actually avoid maximum safety - because you do things that have a noticeable risk! (Quite sensibly in my view).

Overall I don't think "maximum safety" is a helpful concept; it sounds too much like an unattainable slogan. OTOH "appropriate safety" is a much more usable concept, because it acknowledges both risks and rewards.

[Zero999]

Just a joke mate ! 

Yes I tend to surprise people by figuring out things that they think I'm clueless about. I often fain ignorance to get out of doing monkey work. Never tell someone you can fix computers. They will be lined up for repairs for you to get the Babylon tool bar off their 10yo laptop.

I'm sure that was not your attention, but asking new be questions, then revealing you know it all, could be seenas trolling. Why ask the questions to start of with, if you already know the answers?

If you want confirmation, then it's far better to state what you know and your reasoning and ask whether it's correct, rather than playing dumb. You are posting in a professional forum, not dealing with some dodgy salesman.

[sasa]

There are far better and more direct reasons for getting young people to do "risky things" than merely possibly getting a better

There is one big problem with that - it will learn not to appreciate not only their own life, but no body else.

Those two behaviours are orthogonal.

And then it is open path to walk over dead bodies and use any means to achieve any goal they imagine... The history is full of such people.

Arguably that is more likely with those people that haven't been exposed to risk, and therefore haven't learned how to assess and deal with risk.

Look at this for instance, instead wrote answer (watched long time ago):

[Buriedcode]

Well that escalated quickly.

Am I the only one who has avoided such issues by only ever using di-Sodium Peroxodisulphate? 

https://www.rapidonline.com/mega-electronics-fine-etch-clear-pcb-etchant-29448

Unless one lives in the middle of nowhere and cannot order anything, then why bother with ferric chloride or homemade etchants at all?  FeCl, as many here have stated is generally a nightmare in terms of usage and disposal.  Homemade etchants might work, but you will have to experiment for best results, which uses up time.

Seriously, just buy clear etchant.  If you're into experiments and chemistry, use that knowledge to make a tinning solution, or effective additives for doing your own plated-through-holes, but fannying about with etchants when there are relatively cheap and easy pre-made solutions available is just wasting time.

[janoc]

Well that escalated quickly.

Am I the only one who has avoided such issues by only ever using di-Sodium Peroxodisulphate? 

That is only a different name for sodium persulfate, which has been mentioned several times in this thread. Along with the fact that while it is a good etchant, commonly used industrially, it is hardly an economic solution for a hobbyist making one board every once in a while. The solution is unstable and decomposes quickly, so it will go bad rapidly if stored (shell life about 2 months).

Moreover, storing it produces oxygen gas, so it needs to be stored either in a special bottle or with the stopper not put on tight, otherwise the bottle may burst or eject the stopper -> risk of spilling it.

It also doesn't really etch unless warm to 40-50 C, so an extra problem to deal with unless you have a heated etching tank.

Re toxicity - about the same as ferric chloride, you will get heavy metal compounds in the result. Doesn't need to be neutralized (neither ferric chloride, btw), it forms only weakly acidic solution. Neutralizing it won't do any harm, though. However, you still can't simply pour the spent etchant down the drain, even after dilution! It is still considered dangerous waste. And unlike ferric chloride that can be regenerated/reused, you will be producing quite a bit of waste with persulfate.

Also the powdered stuff you buy is a strong oxidizer that can cause fires or even explosions if it gets in contact with a suitable materials - e.g. powdered metal or even paper can be enough. Ouch!

I have tried it but quickly went back to ferric chloride - persulfate is for low volume home board etching just more trouble than it is worth, IMHO. If you are making several boards every week, then it could be different but that's not that common for a hobbyist, especially a beginner.

[Beamin]

Exactly the point here. Many beginners in etching reading this will now say: "Nah, some people here says to be extreme caution but other says HCl is a peace of sh... What a bunch of morons! I could do some pranks with my self, my brother/sister..." 

Well done! 

As well, there is many videos on Youtube move PCB right out of etchant (without neutralization) under tap water and right to the sink, actually they dump down the drain right away whole etchant without neutralization...

You have also wrote:

Ferric Chloride seems to be the best chemical except for its not safe to dump down the drain but I can manage safe disposal.

Then:

I like HCl because there's no toxic waste. But are there some methods this won't work with?

"Ferric Chloride seems to be the best chemical except for its not safe to dump down the drain but I can manage safe disposal"  Then: "HCl produce no toxic waste" ?!

And then you claim you studying chemistry and self answering claiming that you love to shock people?

All that is absolutely irresponsible from you - there is no pranks with extremely hazardous materials, especially with other people may get all that as granted.

If that is true, you must be in early 20's and do not know strict laws regulative about handling hazardous material. BTW, I could  be your father by age.

Who said anything about pranks or shocking people? I was never one for pranks even when I was in my 20's. When I say no toxic waste I mean that you can just dump it down the drain without putting environmental copper compound toxins in the sewer system. I said ferric chloride is best as in it gives you the best traces. What is the point of neutralizing the ph of HCl when it is diluted 1000 times? Unless you mean getting the copper out of solution. SO: I should mention before you dump the HCl it still has copper in solution and you have to precipitate out the copper and filter it off before dumping.

Why would you do pranks with HCl after reading a post on making circuit boards? Am I missing something?

[KL27x]

What is the point of neutralizing the ph of HCl when it is diluted 1000 times? Unless you mean getting the copper out of solution. SO: I should mention before you dump the HCl it still has copper in solution and you have to precipitate out the copper and filter it off before dumping.

So you are implying you can precipitate out the copper without neutralizing the acid? What copper compound are you making which is so insoluble at, say, pH<4 ? I'm curious.

[Beamin]

What is the point of neutralizing the ph of HCl when it is diluted 1000 times? Unless you mean getting the copper out of solution. SO: I should mention before you dump the HCl it still has copper in solution and you have to precipitate out the copper and filter it off before dumping.

So you are implying you can precipitate out the copper without neutralizing the acid? What copper compound are you making which is so insoluble at, say, pH<4 ? I'm curious.

Honestly I haven't tried it yet. So far I just let the HCl evaporate on paper towels until the water is all gone and then just throw it in the trash. Most likely I would try to make copper sulfate crystals. My at home chemistry lab is waiting until I have a place where I can make a fume hood and won't have to worry about the acid destroying all metal in the room.

[hermit]

This thread derailed and crashed a long time ago.  If you want to debate safety start another thread on that subject.

[KL27x]

Why start a new thread? How many trainwrecks do we need? There's actually a lot of good information in this thread, even if the signal to noise is pretty low. That's the end result in most of the internet, though.

I found it curious that Beamin is trying to learn how to make a PCB, but he happens to already be an expert at etchant recovery/recycling/disposal, lol. This is something that I am still learning.

I remember adding baking soda, IIRC, to some ferric, once. More or less just to see what would happen. Instead of iron and copper compounds precipitating out, it just made an icky brown hygroscopic gelatin that could not be strained.

I never actually disposed of ferric. I just kept using it by adding HCl and using aeration. I eventually made a fresh batch of pure cupric, though, because the stain factor of the iron.

Anymore, I just use cupric chloride. When I collect too much extra etchant, I just let it dry out in a pyrex baking dish and collect the green crystals. It should have has some scrap value for recycling the copper and/or use as dry CuCl2 for making etchant. But until I have 20 pounds of it, who cares?  My initial batch of ferric tainted cupric dried out in mix of mostly green copper crystals on the bottom with orange-brown, sticky hygroscopic ferric bits at the peaks; it looked not unlike marijuana from far away. Anyhow, these crystals are all in plastic bags in a box, next to my jugs of extra etchant and HCl. I probably have a couple pints of it, maybe 1 or 2 lbs. Drying out a couple liters of excess etchant is a once every leap year thing, for me.

A couple of uses I know, cupric chloride is used to treat wood for protection (I think from insects and snails). And it is also used to keep slugs out of vegetable gardens. I'm not really worried as to how to dispose of it. I keep it around in case it might be useful. For instance, if I ever wanted to ramp up to a bigger tank/etch setup, I would have the etchant, already.