Author Topic: what an oscilloscope recommended for a woman passionate about electronics?  (Read 53205 times)

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Offline CharlotteSwiss

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One thing I would say regarding probing safely, even if you have a completely isolated scope like a battery powered scopemeter for example, there is still no safe way to probe dangerous voltages.
This kind of measurement will always be dangerous, and keeping that in mind and not getting a false sense of safety by using high voltage differential probes and isolation transformers is quite important.

In over 40 years of electron herding, I've only had 1 minor mains tickle, and that happened the 1 time I didn't follow the rules.
1. It's dangerous until you've proved otherwise.
2. See above.


of course, the lit head is what makes the difference. Only we often think of something else ...
however, I always wear rubber gloves when I look for faults (those for washing the meals, better than nothing)  ^-^
 

Offline rstofer

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Quote
siglent sds1202   2ch/200mhz

I have the 4ch version and it's a great scope.

2ch is fine, 4ch helped me one time to debug a SPI communication but most of the time I use only 1 ch and very basic features, just to see if some signal is here and check the overall shape...

Build quality is very good.

I have no doubts, but it is out of price for me..
your opinion, however, can make me think .. maybe 4 ch are not indispensable for me
I will look better siglent 1202 ;-)
thanks

I have always mentioned the SPI protocol and 4 channels.  Well, sure, that's the excuse I used to buy the DS1054Z but I had been debugging that protocol for years with a 2 channel analog scope.  I wanted 4 channels and that's what I bought but I got along with 2 channels for decades.

Maybe memory size is important, maybe a decent FFT is important (and the DS1054Z doesn't fare well in the FFT category), maybe the UI is better on the Siglent.  The DS1054Z UI is slow but I don't spend a lot of time twiddling the knobs compared to the amount of time trying to analyze the display.  When I am playing with an analog computer, I may set the knobs once and not make a change for days.  The equation may change but the voltage scale is fixed and so is the timing.

You might search for threads re: some particular scope over in the Test Equipment forum.


 

Offline rstofer

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of course, first I will measure with the dmm.
probe factor 1x10, 1x100... now for me it's total darkness.
But when I have the oscilloscope I will have to deepen this speech too...

There are a lot of scope probe videos.  Here is one by w2aew (Alan Wolke).  He works for Tektronix and his videos are excellent.  I didn't turn it up but I believe Dave has done a similar video.




ETA:  On a modern DSO, there will be a menu selection for probe factor.  The displayed measurements will be corrected for the probe,
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 04:29:12 pm by rstofer »
 

Offline AVGresponding

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however, I always wear rubber gloves when I look for faults (those for washing the meals, better than nothing)  ^-^

:-DD :-+
nuqDaq yuch Dapol?
Addiction count: Agilent-AVO-BlackStar-Brymen-Fluke-Hameg-HP-Keithley-IsoTech-Mastech-Megger-Micronta-Racal-Siglent-Solartron-Tektronix-Thurlby-Time Electronics-TTi-UniT
 

Offline CharlotteSwiss

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I have always mentioned the SPI protocol and 4 channels.  Well, sure, that's the excuse I used to buy the DS1054Z but I had been debugging that protocol for years with a 2 channel analog scope.  I wanted 4 channels and that's what I bought but I got along with 2 channels for decades.
I'm starting to think that maybe I would never use 4 channels together ...
however I prepare an excel with the characteristics of the 3 oscilloscope, so I better see the differences
work in progress  ^-^
 

Offline CharlotteSwiss

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There are a lot of scope probe videos.  Here is one by w2aew (Alan Wolke).  He works for Tektronix and his videos are excellent.  I didn't turn it up but I believe Dave has done a similar video.
thanks, then I calmly look at him ;-)
 

Offline tggzzz

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For the Analog Discovery 2, where the allowable input voltage is severely constrained, I bought a pair of 10x only probes such that I can't possibly get into the 1x mode.

Yes.

Sooner or later, a *1/*10 switchable probe will be in the "wrong" position.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline CharlotteSwiss

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here is a comparison of the 3 oscilloscopes that I could take:



the best results in green.
I reported the price from francs to euros
Rigol ds1202 it is the best choice (I think savings 30.00)
Siglent 1202 has the highest price
but the price does not affect my choice...
surely I will have forgotten some interesting specifications to compare ...
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 08:32:12 pm by CharlotteSwiss »
 

Offline CharlotteSwiss

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I would have a curiosity to ask:
I don't have an oscilloscope, in troubleshooting I do everything with the multimeter (voltage, test diode, measure capacitors, resistor ecc..)
You who have an oscilloscope, when troubleshooting when you prefer to use the oscilloscope instead of the multimeter?

it's bedtime for me..
good night friends
 ^-^
 

Offline james_s

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It depends on what I'm looking for. I use my multimeter more often than I use my scope, but there are things I cannot do with a multimeter where a scope is required. For example with a digital circuit one of the first things I normally check is the clock, if I use a multimeter I might see a voltage on the output of the clock, but is that the correct clock frequency or is it just a steady DC voltage? Is the frequency correct? Is the amplitude right? Is the duty cycle right? Is there ringing or distortion? Maybe you're looking at an audio amplifier, the output sounds distorted, you'd like to know if it is clipping, maybe only the top or bottom half of the waveform is clipping or distorted, maybe you want to see the phase relationship between the input and output. Many of those measurements are difficult or impossible with a multimeter. Once you have had an oscilloscope you will wonder how you got by without it, but you will still need your multimeter. A scope is a companion, not a replacement for a multimeter.
 

Offline tggzzz

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I would have a curiosity to ask:
I don't have an oscilloscope, in troubleshooting I do everything with the multimeter (voltage, test diode, measure capacitors, resistor ecc..)
You who have an oscilloscope, when troubleshooting when you prefer to use the oscilloscope instead of the multimeter?

it's bedtime for me..
good night friends
 ^-^

There is a lot of overlap between tools' capabilities. Frequently I use whichever is more easily available.

Knowing where you could only use one tool is important, as is thinking about how you can use skill and imagination to do more with less.  See my .sig
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline rstofer

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here is a comparison of the 3 oscilloscopes that I could take:



the best results in green.
I reported the price from francs to euros
Rigol ds1202 it is the best choice (I think savings 30.00)
Siglent 1202 has the highest price
but the price does not affect my choice...
surely I will have forgotten some interesting specifications to compare ...

Now search the Test Equipment forum here on eevBlog for threads related to each of the 3 candidates.  You will get an idea which models are more highly regarded than others.
 

Offline rstofer

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Troubleshooting an arbitrary piece of equipment can be complicated, particularly if there are no schematics.  I don't do this kind of thing.  My troubleshooting is on digital systems I have built and I know exactly what I expect to see on each signal.  Since the signals are suppose to change state (fast), a DMM is pretty much useless.  I can use it to check the power supply values but that's about it.  In some cases, I can measure the average voltage of a PWM signal but the meter needs to be quick or have a bar graph.  Or I have to slow down the code.

I like to play with educational circuits as I linked above.  I tend to use the AD2 for that kind of thing because I like the 27" screen and it's pretty easy to use Paint to crop and save the screen shot.  But sometimes I use a scope on simple transistor amplifier circuits but I will confess to having less than zero interest in radio or audio.  It's fun to duplicate w2aew's circuits.

Hint:  Take a look at w2aew's videos - they are excellent and nearly all involve using a scope.  Dave has some Fundamental Friday videos where he gets into circuits.  These two channels contain a lot of electronics.
 

Offline james_s

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A significant majority of the equipment I've repaired over the years had no schematics or other service information. You get the hang of it after a while, for example I fixed a whole lot of CRT displays when they were still king and the more of them I worked on, the more they all started to look the same. I'd see the same 4 or 5 problems over and over again in all different brands.
 

Offline jmelson

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Well, first, the woman part really has no bearing, except that I'd advise you to stay far away from any offers of a Tektronix 555.
You wouldn't be able to lift it.  Then, again, I couldn't lift one of those either.

There are some amazingly inexpensive digital scopes in the Hantek and similar lines, and they are apprently pretty good.  Digital scopes, however, have some features that can obscure some information.  On a pure analog scope, the brightness of the trace reflects how many triggers/second there are.  You get no such information on a digital scope, so it is hard to tell whether the event is happening 10 times a second or 10,000.  But, on the other hand, you can look at what happened BEFORE the trigger event, and you can study a single event as long as you want to look at it.  These are great advantages.

Jon
 

Offline magic

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My Hantek has a trigger event frequency counter with something like 6 digits of resolution :-//
 

Offline rstofer

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There is a lengthy oscilloscope training program as a sticky at the top of this forum.
 

Offline CharlotteSwiss

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hello  ^-^ , well I'm done working...

-james: thanks for the contribution, I don't take the oscilloscope to put the multimeter aside, quiet  :-+
 Of course, experience is possible even without schemes ... I also had to do without a scheme, but elementary things
-rstofer: I watched some videos of that youtube channel, very instructive ;-)
 Ok, I will calmly look at that section of the forum for choosing the oscilloscope
 I will also read the topic above (sticky)
-Jmelson: no problem, tektronix 555 it's not for me  :D
 I see you suggest Hantek: I see that they cost less than rigol and siglent, but will they be without problems?  :phew:
-Magic: what model do you have? price? I have to see some good shop that sells Hantek, out of curiosity...

-------------------

curiosity:
I'd like to know if it is possible to check with the oscilloscope if a microcomputer works well?
For example in my audio amplifier I have this SINGLE-CHIP 16-BIT CMOS MICROCOMPUTER:



in case it has problems, with the oscilloscope is it possible to find the fault on any of these 100 pins?
I ask it to understand the potential of the oscilloscope ...

thanks boys  ^-^
Charlotte



« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 03:56:19 pm by CharlotteSwiss »
 

Offline borjam

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Now I've never been interested of the SPI signal, but if I had the chance why not?
It depends on your interests. SPI is used to control peripherals in microprocessors. For example, it would be especially useful when debugging software (or some hardware interfaces) with computers such as Raspberry Pi.

Quote
it's curious, you're one of the few who recommend fewer channels and more bandwidth
Not exactly.  :) What I say is: *if* debugging digital signals such as SPI buses is important for you, four channels may be more important than a higher bandwidth. If that's not the case and you don't have in mind tasks that benefit from four channels, then the Siglent is a better choice.

It's not a matter of bandwidth, Siglent's firmware is better polished in my opinion and the input stages are better.

Quote
quiet my choice does not include ds1000e rigol
Given the recent evolution in these budget models it's better to go for the modern models. There is a substantial change.

Quote
The models of choice should be: rigol ds1054z, rigol ds1202z-e, and the basic model Siglent.
From what I read here, it seems that Siglent is slightly superior to Rigol in terms of quality, but it costs more...
Also, I own a Rigol DS1000Z and a Siglent SDS1202X-E I know both, but I haven't tried the 1202z-e from Rigol. And when recommending something I try to stick to what I know.

So, in my opinion. Between two models, the DS1000Z has the channel count advantage if you need it. If not, the Siglent has several advantages in input stages, better signal processing in my opinion and more polished user interface.

Hope it answers your question better :)
 

Offline rstofer

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curiosity:
I'd like to know if it is possible to check with the oscilloscope if a microcomputer works well?
For example in my audio amplifier I have this SINGLE-CHIP 16-BIT CMOS MICROCOMPUTER:


Without source code, you will be hard pressed to learn very  much about the operation.  You can check to see if the clock is running.  You can make gross assumptions about what the various pins do when you chase the traces to other devices.  You can sketch out some signals and see if they are doing anything reasonable.

Without a schematic and source code, it will be a guessing game.  With experience, it will become an experienced guessing game.
 

Offline CharlotteSwiss

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It depends on your interests... ecc ecc

thanks borjam  ;)
I currently believe that 4 ch I don't need
you have two models that I have in the list..
just to speak, if you had to keep only one of the two, what would be the choice? (rigol1054vssiglent1202)
 ^-^
 

Offline CharlotteSwiss

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Without source code, you will be hard pressed to learn very  much about the operation.  You can check to see if the clock is running.  You can make gross assumptions about what the various pins do when you chase the traces to other devices.  You can sketch out some signals and see if they are doing anything reasonable.
Without a schematic and source code, it will be a guessing game.  With experience, it will become an experienced guessing game.

thanks, what do you mean by scheme? I have the amplifier wiring diagram, I know where the track of each pin goes...
but it doesn't matter, I just wanted to know if the oscilloscope was used on these microcontrollers..
I'm almost ashamed to ask ...if I look at the pin table of that microcontroller, I don't understand some symbols:



in the column that I marked, it is marked how the signals on the pins behave: when the amplifier is on, when the amplifier is in standby
O= output
I=input
O/L= what it indicates?
 :-[ thanks :-[
 ^-^
good night
« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 08:19:03 pm by CharlotteSwiss »
 

Online tautech

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Just another point for CharlotteSwiss to consider.
While SDS1202X-E is a 2ch DSO, it does have individual vertical controls and is easier for the scope newbie to get to grips with rather than a scope with multiplexed (shared) controls.

For the budget vs capability conscious these are a good little DSO and a strong seller worldwide.
Certainly my best seller.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline james_s

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Without source code, you will be hard pressed to learn very  much about the operation.  You can check to see if the clock is running.  You can make gross assumptions about what the various pins do when you chase the traces to other devices.  You can sketch out some signals and see if they are doing anything reasonable.
Without a schematic and source code, it will be a guessing game.  With experience, it will become an experienced guessing game.

thanks, what do you mean by scheme? I have the amplifier wiring diagram, I know where the track of each pin goes...
but it doesn't matter, I just wanted to know if the oscilloscope was used on these microcontrollers..
I'm almost ashamed to ask ...if I look at the pin table of that microcontroller, I don't understand some symbols:



in the column that I marked, it is marked how the signals on the pins behave: when the amplifier is on, when the amplifier is in standby
O= output
I=input
O/L= what it indicates?
 :-[ thanks :-[
 ^-^
good night


A schematic is the wiring diagram, as in the complete circuit diagram, not just the wiring between boards.

The short answer is the scope will show you what is happening on any of the pins. It's up to you to determine if what you're seeing is what is supposed to be there and what to do if it isn't. A scope isn't magic, it just lets you see what's there, it doesn't tell you if it's correct or not.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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It's really a little unfair to keep referring to the Rigol as "50Mhz/100Mhz hack" because the scope is actually pretty much a 130 MHz scope that is disabled in the factory to reduce its effective bandwidth to 50 MHz. Removing this restriction using the established procedure is hardly a "hack".

It's also pretty funny for me to see people saying the scope can't do certain things (like a reasonable FFT) when I demonstrated it in the scopeshots video above.
And of course we once again see complaints about the fan noise and the non-detented encoder. I also bought a quiet fan when I first bought my scope, based on all the things people said about the fan noise-- and I still haven't installed it, because the scope is not that noisy after all. And I have never had any trouble selecting anything on the scope due to some kind of encoder difficulty or lack of detents. It's just not worth the trouble to me to replace an encoder when operating the stock encoder isn't an actual problem. But then I have "Mooney Mechanics" hands, your mileage may vary.

One valid criticism I have seen in this thread re the Rigol 1054z is that it shares one set of vertical controls among the 4 channels. This could be confusing to a beginner, but again, half an hour actually using the scope to probe some example circuits and you will have that "feature" down pat.

My feeling is that if you only have one tool, but you do many jobs, it is better to have your tool be a general purpose one that does many different things. Perhaps such a tool makes certain compromises and doesn't do _everything_ as well as a dedicated speciality tool does for a particular task. If you really need a full featured FFT, get a spectrum analyzer. If you need to decode digital protocols all the time, get a dedicated protocol analyzer. If you absolutely need high bandwidth, you will want something that costs as much as a new car or maybe even a house.

But if you are a hobbyist, fixing random audio gear and maybe moving on to experimenting with TTL, or RF in the 10 meter band , and intend to advance further, you should get a multipurpose tool as a beginner, that will still be useful when you are more advanced.

One thing I really like about the Rigol is the wide choice of channel attenuations, since I often monitor current through odd or arbitrary value resistive elements. It's great to be able to set up the scope and probe to give a correct current reading by setting the attenuations appropriately. I imagine this should be true of the Siglents, too, but I've not used one.

Oh... one more thing.... A 100x probe does not cost 10x more than a 10x probe!  And they have no switches!     :-+
« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 04:00:27 am by alsetalokin4017 »
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