Oscilloscope recommendation

[CAG]

Hey all, new user, not proficient with the search function, apologies in advance.
I'm an automotive mechanic by trade. I have recently been tasked with dealing with all the more complex electrical diag work at the shop. I have limited experience with an oscilloscope. I know only the bear bones basics. Time to get one for myself, mostly for work but I'm also interested in some hobby electronics stuff and audio signal analysis. The pico scopes are popular in my trade but the price and need for a laptop turn me off. I hoping to stay under $800 or so. Looking hard at the rigol 800 and 900 4ch scopes. Looking for opinions from anyone in a similar situation. Based on my understanding the rigol has more than enough bandwidth and voltage limits for automotive testing. The 900 peaks my interest mostly due to double the memory. Some of the tests I will be doing will not require very fast sample rate but would be helpful to be able to record a signal for a longer time. Is it possible to dial down sample rate and increase recorded signal time on the rigol? Is there a formula so I can work out how long I can record/view at a given sample rate? Does this question even make sense? Lastly should I be looking at a different scope altogether? A better option? Thanks!

[tatel]

https://www.micsig.com/SATO/

[CAG]

Thanks for the recommendation. I mostly passed over the micsig. I couldn't find reviews on Amazon and the site seemed disorganized, showing different looking models in some pictures and stats that didn't Mach up to stats listed in other places on the same page. I'll look further into it as the portability would be a plus. Do you have experience with this scope?

[DimitriP]

The pico scopes are popular in my trade but the price and need for a laptop turn me off. I hoping to stay under $800 or so.

It sounds like "they" are "making you buy your  own" scope.
It's slightly location dependent but from what I hear it's easier for a tech to find a shop,  than it is for a shop to find a tech.
So I'm tempted to recommend the scope and laptop the shop will pay for.


 

[CAG]

True. Good take. I have wanted my own scope for a long time. I'm thinking about opening up my own shop in the nearish future. Adding a scope to my tool set now will help with that. You have a very good point though.

[tatel]

Do you have experience with this scope?

Absolutely not. The most advanced electronic thing my trusty, very old Citroen Berlingo has, are probably the relays for the signal lights. And I want it that way. Actually, I'm looking for another Berlingo of that vintage. I also have a more modern Citroen C5 with an ECU and all that electronic stuff. If one wants to, say, change the radio, one has to pay Citroen for the software. So, in some way, that car isn't mine, but it's still Citroen's. Vendor software lock. Meh.

But on occasion, say, to check some sensor in another car, I use a really dirty cheap Zeeweii DSO154Pro. https://aliexpress.com/item/1005006504569477.html

I'm not joking, that Zeeweii "toy" is able to do the same things than the tools many guys in this forum, had to use to learn some decades ago. They had to pay dearly then, but now these capabilities can be had for less than 40 bucks, shipped.

I have a 4-channel digital oscilloscope, but the Zeeweii did make easier to understand the basics of oscilloscopes. Since you are wondering if halving the sample rate would allow for a longer capture, obviously you have to learn the basics.  You should buy the "18 MHz" model, it has more bandwidth because it comes with a battery... and a real oscilloscope probe. After some learning, you will be able to make a much better decision.

Here's a thread about that "toy". You'll find there what guys having 500-to-3000-bucks oscilloscopes have to say about that "toy".
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-toy()-scope-dso154pro-1ch-claimed-40mss/

Since you made clear you need the oscilloscope for automotive work, and you didn't mention MicSig at all, who offers automotive oscilloscopes, I just linked that website for you to check.

Here you have a thread about MicSig o'scopes
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-attempt-of-a-micsig-(as)to11xx-general-purpose-thread-)/

You could also look for "automotive oscilloscope" on Youtube. I bet you'll get many results, then you could ask here about them. One more recommendation, put the word "automotive" in the subject

[CAG]

Thank you for the link. I did originally start this search with a Google inquiry about automotive scopes. The only scope I have used was a snapon branded older (2006) scope. The automated features it had for automotive testing were frustrating more than helpful for me. I really just wanted a couple knobs for time and amplitude and that simple stuff was buried in the software. It really wanted to autoscale everything. Anyway I was thinking of getting a more general purpose scope this time. I read the thread you provided and will do the youtube rabit hole tomorrow. Thanks again!

[tatel]

I did a quick google search about automotive oscilloscope videos. This guy does interesting things: https://www.youtube.com/@MechanicMindset

He's using different devices ranging from a DSO138 to a picoscope 2024A. Unable to find any videos about automotive grade picoscope or micsig oscilloscopes. He doesn't seem to need any special automotive feature.

With a very very high probability, DSO 138 is really the cheapest toyscope in the world. Here's the video:

Recommedation is for picoscope 2024A, I could get it right now for €138 from mamazon . It's a 10-MHz oscilloscope. Here's the video:

Another channel, video about a "Secret $150 portable Automotive Oscilloscope Labscope". That oscilloscope has a "FNIRSI" branding on it. FNIRSI oscilloscopes are nothing to write home about. But, hey, if 10 Mhz are enough and signals are above 0.5 V, then even my zeeweii dso154 will serve me well. I would like to have CAN decoding on it however. The video:

If youtubers are using those devices, it doesn't seem that neither broad bandwidth, huge memory, nor high sensitivity, are essential. Cheap grade oscilloscopes are already useful. Then, an automotive grade oscilloscope, either from picoscope or micsig, will probably look and behave like a jet fighter in comparison. I bet that would be a kind of pro badge, like using a fluke DMM. The guy in the video speaks about a 1000 pounds price for one of these automotive grade picoscopes? I guess you'd be able to find a similar-capabilities micsig in that range. I would contact a seller and ask about it, if no good info is found on the Net.

IIRC, there was a thread about a guy using an automotive micsig, that had problems about a BNC connector getting loose from mechanic action. So you could be looking for models with recessed or somehow protected BNC connectors.

I would be wondering about pro automotive grade or not, and about laptop needed or not.

In your price range I could get from micsig.es either:

SATO2002 for €650+VAT, touchscreen+knobs, 2 channels, 200 MHz, 1 GSa/s, 70 Mpts memory, decodes CAN.

VATO2004, €500+VAT, picoscope-like, can be connected to and android tablet/phone, 4 channels, 200 MHz, 1 Gsa/s, 50 Mpts memory, decodes CAN Edit: that spec seems a little too much? I would say 100 Mhz for  1 Gsa/s and 4 channels?.

Anyway, compared to a 1-2-channels devices boasting 10 MHz, 4Kpts memory, these are jet fighters. I'm sure picoscope will have something similar.

Then I would open a new thread about the candidate, mentioning automotive use.

[bdunham7]

I'm an automotive mechanic by trade. I have recently been tasked with dealing with all the more complex electrical diag work at the shop. I have limited experience with an oscilloscope.

Two questions for you:

1.  Can you give 3 to 5 specific examples of how you would use an oscilloscope on an car or truck?  By specific, I mean make/model/year and exactly what the issue is and how you would use the scope to test.

2.  Are you an IATN member?

If both answers are simply "no", then I'd recommend you buy some cheap piece of junk that you can learn with.  You don't need exceptional performance for automotive work but the mains-powered lunchbox style scopes you are considering would lead a rough life in an shop.  Battery power, handheld and reasonably durable are pretty standard requirements.  The Picoscope 2204A would be my beginners recommendation in most cases and having the laptop attached is a huge advantage IMO, but apparently you disagree.  If you had trouble using a Modis (which is what I presume you were referring to) then you have some work to do.  Just getting a signal on the screen is only the first step of effectively using a scope in your field. 

[Zenith]

I've never seriously looked into it but I've had the impression that oscilloscopes used in automotive work didn't need any advanced features or high bandwidth. They have have a hard life so need to be very robust or disposable. Battery power to avoid the need for power leads would be desirable. Are there special protocol decoding features that are needed or anything like that?

There must be loads of handheld scopes for $50 to $100 or so that fit the bill.

I certainly don't believe a $800 Rigol or Siglent would be necessary or desirable. If you want to buy one for other reasons, then great , but keep it away from automotive work.
 

[CaptDon]

As a locomotive electronics technician / troubleshooter / design engineer here is my take. First off, locomotives have most of the same CANBUS stuff that is used on cars and made by the same companies that make the car stuff. Diesels don't have spark ignition, but dual-fuel engines can. I never liked Pico Scopes with laptops BUT I can tell you that by far they are the most useful and versatile devices for auto / locomotive use!! First advantage, they run from USB power from the laptop. Second, the laptop can be located perhaps 25 feet from the scope via USB cable. Third, with proper settings the scope can capture waveforms lasting as long as the memory storage of the scope (you could track a crank sensor for hours and set the triggering to capture abnomalities). A final thought is that the waveforms can be saved as .CSV which would allow many forms of diagnostic statistics to be parsed with programs like MATLAB or the freeware version SCILAB. When troubleshooting circuit boards themselves we have very sophisticated scopes in the $250K price range. Those seldom go out in the field. But you could find an electronics engineer / QA/QC technician out there on a locomotive with a laptop and picoscope EVERY day!!!

[xavier60]

This might seem like a trivial point. Notice that with just about all screen shots of DSO displays, the trigger reference position is at the middle.
For single shot use where as much as possible of the waveform needs to be captured after the trigger event, the trigger reference needs to be placed near to the left side of the display. Most budget DSOs don't have a proper setting for this. I have been led to believe that some Siglent models do.
I still use a 25 year old HP 54645A which doesn't have this or any other annoyance.

[BillyO]

Most budget DSOs don't have a proper setting for this. I have been led to believe that some Siglent models do.

Which models are you thinking of?  All the ones I have seen can do this, right down to the little $40 Zeeweii 154Pro.  Not that I'm suggesting this is a viable option as a professional tool, but it can do what you say.

Hantek make automotive specific USB scope kits.  These are actually far nicer than their stand alone efforts.

[xavier60]

Most budget DSOs don't have a proper setting for this. I have been led to believe that some Siglent models do.

Which models are you thinking of?  All the ones I have seen can do this, right down to the little $40 Zeeweii 154Pro.  Not that I'm suggesting this is a viable option as a professional tool, but it can do what you say.

Hantek make automotive specific USB scope kits.  These are actually far nicer than their stand alone efforts.

I cant recall at the moment, it was a few years ago. With my HP DSO, it's a "Left, Middle, Right" setting.

[Aldo22]

This might seem like a trivial point. Notice that with just about all screen shots of DSO displays, the trigger reference position is at the middle.
For single shot use where as much as possible of the waveform needs to be captured after the trigger event, the trigger reference needs to be placed near to the left side of the display. Most budget DSOs don't have a proper setting for this.

I don't know what you mean by "budget", but my two cheap scopes can do that without any problems.

[pdenisowski]

I have this book and it is really excellent:

https://www.amazon.com/Automotive-Oscilloscopes-Waveform-Graham-Stoakes/dp/0992949262

I also would agree the most automotive testing does not require a particularly powerful / expensive oscilloscope, especially if protocol analysis (CAN / LIN) is not involved.

[xavier60]

Most budget DSOs don't have a proper setting for this. I have been led to believe that some Siglent models do.

Which models are you thinking of?  All the ones I have seen can do this, right down to the little $40 Zeeweii 154Pro.  Not that I'm suggesting this is a viable option as a professional tool, but it can do what you say.

Hantek make automotive specific USB scope kits.  These are actually far nicer than their stand alone efforts.

I cant recall at the moment, it was a few years ago. With my HP DSO, it's a "Left, Middle, Right" setting.

Allegedly, Siglent X-E models, https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-confusion/msg1984631/#msg1984631

[BillyO]

Allegedly, Siglent X-E models, https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-confusion/msg1984631/#msg1984631

I think you might be reading that post incorrectly.  Every Siglent scope I have, including an X-E model, allows you to move the trigger point where you like and it will not change with change of time base.  It also has the feature (just like my other two Siglent scopes) to allow you to put it back to the center with a single button push.

Maybe you are thinking of the much lower end SDS1052DL.

[xavier60]

Below, explains the relationship of trigger-point and time-reference-point on my HP.
Many DSOs don't have the option of moving the time-reference-point, certain Siglent models being the exception although I don't fully understand how the function operates. I did ask for a demonstration, but my request wasn't important enough to them.

"At the top and bottom of the
graticule is a solid triangle ( ▼ ) symbol and an open triangle ( ∇ )
symbol. The ▼ symbol indicates the trigger point and it moves with
the Delay knob. The ∇ symbol indicates the time reference point. If
the time reference softkey is set to left, the ∇ is located one graticule
in from the left side of the display. If the time reference softkey is set
to center, the ∇ is located at the center of the display. The delay
number tells you how far the reference point ∇ is located from the
trigger point ▼."

EDIT: I'm happy to add that the Rigol DHO800 series, possibly others, have this useful feature.
"
Horizontal Expansion Reference
This function allows you to set the position that the waveform on the display is
referenced to when it is horizontally expanded or compressed when the horizontal
time base is adjusted. In the Horizontal menu, click or tap the Expand drop-down
button to select the reference position. Available options include Center (default),
Left, Right, Trigger, and User.
"

[bdunham7]

Many DSOs don't have the option of moving the time-reference-point, certain Siglent models being the exception although I don't fully understand how the function operates.

I can't think of a single DSO that doesn't have this capability one way or another.  It is a combination of horizontal position plus trigger delay in those cases where you can move it completely off the screen.  Whether the visible position of the trigger point changes with the timebase is a configurable option in some cases or a fixed feature in others.

[tatel]

Are there special protocol decoding features that are needed or anything like that?

Yep. I would like to see some comments about CAN decoding and one of two channels. It looks that CAN signal is a differential one? I guess one just need to look if the signal is OK, and that it would be easier and cleaner to use OBD to see the decoded messages.

I also guess that, while inconvenient, a one-channel device would be enough to look at both halves of the signal, even it only one at the time. After the videos, it looks quite easy to see if there's a 5V signal or is instead showing "flats"

Edit: however it looks evident that having two channels is really handy.