EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Beginners => Topic started by: theoldguy on December 27, 2010, 05:12:20 am
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I am starting UF in two semesters and will be getting a degree in Electrical Engineering. I watch all of Dave's videos and love them. Just wondering what degree he has.
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Larger than my ... :D :D :D
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After watching all of the blogs from the beginning, I get the sense that the degrees are just an after thought to learning something new.
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After watching all of the blogs from the beginning, I get the sense that the degrees are just an after thought to learning something new.
Every sane owner of a degree will tell you that the degree is "just" the admission ticket for the corresponding profession. It is like getting a drivers license. The license just permits you to take part in the traffic. It doesn't say you are a good or skillful driver. It just says you have a more or less standardized set of skills on which you need to work.
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Having a degree doesn't make one competent..There is a 50% chance your doctor finished in the bottom half of his class.
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Every sane owner of a degree will tell you that the degree is "just" the admission ticket for the corresponding profession. It is like getting a drivers license. The license just permits you to take part in the traffic. It doesn't say you are a good or skillful driver. It just says you have a more or less standardized set of skills on which you need to work.
I agree. No degree gives you a perfect expertise. Expertise is only achieved with good effort and work, not with a degree.
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Degrees are just certificates that make you a first class citizen with the right to any job you fancy even if your not qualified for it, your automatically ingenious, for example a friend of mine has a degree in chemistry and got a job as an analyst for a bank (mortgage risks) now I know I don't have supernatural powers but i didn't know i needed them to see the link ???
in the UK a degree seems to guarantee any jerk any job while the real intelligent people that do know how to use their hands and minds together to accomplish something are left in the ditch
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@Simon: It is much much worse in some other countries, you really should not complain.
@theoldguy: Only Dave can answer that, but seeing the stuff he used to do when he was a boy, my bet is electrical/electronic engineering or the equivalent of that time.
@ColinA: I agree, having a degree doesnt make you competent. However, you can have a degree and be competent, or you can have a degree and then become competent, or you can be competent without a degree. The truth is though, having a degree means to your employer that you have more chances of you being, or becoming competent.
@BoredAtwork: Thats true, getting a degree exposes you to whole industry and the subject you have chosen. It opens up paths that you must then walk on your own.
@migsantiago: During your studies you are given the opportunity to begin building your expertise in a particular field of your choice and that takes a lot of effort and hard work.
In general, getting a degree is part of just one of the paths one might take to become/achieve what he wants. It is certainly not the only one! Therefore you cannot base your final judgement on whether someone has, or doesnt have, a degree. I personally have equal respect for both.
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It depends on the degree and the university.
For example a degree in surf science studied at somewhere like Luton is worth nothing compared to a Chemistry degree attained at Cambridge.
I think the government should only fund degree courses which get students high paid jobs or are useful to the NHS or scientific research rather than those which students take purely for fun and give little return on the investment.
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A degree is nice to have, it's a start, but it's what you know and how you can convey it. I've had ppl work for me that came from a very well known college here in Boston that didn't know how to operate a scope or solder (I was floored! I interviewed about 20 or so students). While a high school vocational kid half his age knew more and could do more and out performed the college guy. I learn a lesson that day not to dismiss the vocational kids, they have a lot more lab and class hours than a 4 year college. Yes, when I do interview I have a 50 question basic electronics test with hands on work and a "live" troubleshooting problem.
On another subject note what is better a EE degree or an EET degree? This is always a great discussion in my work.
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in the UK a degree seems to guarantee any jerk any job while the real intelligent people that do know how to use their hands and minds together to accomplish something are left in the ditch
i know some people here who got "reputable relatives" who managed to "bought" the degree without having to go through all the "hard and pain" in U. those what i call jerks!
Yes I have one such relative in Italy that bought himself a degree just so that he can be listed as "doctor" in the telephone directory. At the end of the day a degree ascertains that at the time of taking exam you had the knowledge and hopefully knew how to put it to good use (having knowledge alone serves no one). Whether you remember any of that knowledge or can indeed put it to use when you are taken into consideration via that degree is another matter.
I have some really clever engineers where I work, one draws a piece of pipework consisting of a large pipe and two 1/2" pipes going into the side, spaced 20mm apart, he then expected a hose and jubilee clip to be installed on both pipes. No you don't need a degree to know some simple maths: 1/2" = 12.5mm, 20-12.5=7.5mm 7.5/2=3.725mm so each pipe had 3.725mm around it for a thick hose and jubilee clip. The section supervisor told him he could not make it for him, his answer: oh well you make it as you think it should be and I'll draw it. The supervisors answer: Which one of us in the engineer ??? they seem to think where I work that if they can draw it, the shop floor can make it. I think most people know that theory and practice do not meet at the same point.
Sure there are lots of clever people out there with degrees, they were clever before they took the degree and obtained the knowledge and skill in that particular field. but just getting a degree does not make one clever. I'm sure that if you look into any accomplished engineers life you will find that he was passionate about the subject he took and like Dave was probably a hobbiest in it as a child
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Some courses teach practical skills. I know someone with a degree who built a massage chair for his final project. He had to assemble the chair and to both the mechanical and electronic parts of the project.
The HND course I studied taught some practical skills, we had to build some circuits on stripboard and breadboard and test them with a DVM and oscillosope but it was mostly theory based. The thing which was really missing were a modules on reading datasheets and PCBH design, although I learned that on the job.
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ultimately you will learn for yourself most of what you need to learn. Essentially nobody taught me a thing, my electronics college was a joke and lessons lasted 5 minutes. Yet considering the amount of formal education i had a I have a fair understanding of electronics and can design things for myself and will learn from my mistakes and am capable of identifying what i need to know and going and finding the info i need
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A degree is nice to have, it's a start, but it's what you know and how you can convey it. I've had ppl work for me that came from a very well known college here in Boston that didn't know how to operate a scope or solder (I was floored! I interviewed about 20 or so students).
this is the misconception or myth that people think of. they expect degree'd engineers to be able to handle all those "get down and dirty" job, which in fact not what the degree level is all about, but of course hands on will be much helpful. another thing in question is the quality of education that a particular U or college provides.
Why is that a misconception? It is supply and demand. If the demand for the particular job is that an engineer can solder and handle an oscilloscope, then those 20 candidates simply failed.
What I think is a misconception is to try to restrict the area an engineer should work in just because he is an engineer. Statistics in my country say that 40% of all engineers end up working outside their formal area of expertise. Which I think is great. It shows that the education and training is good enough to do a lot of things.
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An engineering degree from any decent school is a mark of aptitude for problem solving. Engineering as a whole is about solving problems efficiently.
This comes natural to many but its further honed by your education. If you just want to tinker in your free time and build simple things than you might not need a degree but if you want to be a serious engineer in the industry than your schooling is essential. There are certain topics you can only learn in a rigorous class room environment and are simply too complex for independent study.
In the states, if you want to be a licensed professional engineer you have to take and pass a fundamentals of engineering exam than work under the eye of a PE for a certain amount of years in the industry than take your professional engineering exam which is more focused on your area of expertise. Its pretty difficult to pass these tests without proper education. PE licensing is less common with EEs though and more common with civil and mechanical. I am not sure but I think this is because they do more direct government work which tends to be bureaucratic by nature.
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Guys I have employed many engineers in my day so no need to tell me about what they are or not. I just was curious about what degree Dave has.
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Guys I have employed many engineers in my day so no need to tell me about what they are or not. I just was curious about what degree Dave has.
You have?
I am starting UF in two semesters and will be getting a degree in Electrical Engineering. I watch all of Dave's videos and love them. Just wondering what degree he has.
Since these two statements from you hardly match I don't believe you. But anyhow, this is a public forum. We discuss what we want, not what you want us to discuss. And since Dave couldn't be bothered to give you an answer until now, your question was probably not very relevant.
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Guys I have employed many engineers in my day so no need to tell me about what they are or not. I just was curious about what degree Dave has.
You have?
I am starting UF in two semesters and will be getting a degree in Electrical Engineering. I watch all of Dave's videos and love them. Just wondering what degree he has.
Since these two statements from you hardly match I don't believe you. But anyhow, this is a public forum. We discuss what we want, not what you want us to discuss. And since Dave couldn't be bothered to give you an answer until now, your question was probably not very relevant.
True and well spotted, and the op has only made two posts to this thread in days, hm interesting.
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I thought Dave was self taught, like Jeri Ellsworth?
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hm maybe but you tend to find any good engineer with qualifications was also a hobbiest right from a child and personally very into the subject. my college was crap and i had to learn it all by my self, to listen to me you'd think i have no qualifications (if you can call a piece of bog roll they couldn't get my birth place right on from italy a qualification)
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All good engineers are self-taught, though some silly school may have given them a certificate in the past ;)
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All good engineers are self-taught, though some silly school may have given them a certificate in the past ;)
My high school yearbook quote: "Never let your schooling interfere with your education" - Mark Twain
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All good engineers are self-taught, though some silly school may have given them a certificate in the past ;)
My high school yearbook quote: "Never let your schooling interfere with your education" - Mark Twain
so true,
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Whether or not you are self taught just depends on what type of electrical engineering you do and how advanced it is. You can teach yourself MCUs and digital design because everything costs very little and has been well documented since the first logical gate. If you are an electrical engineer who is doing designs for a research laboratory like CERN or Sandia than I don't see how you can possibly get by (much less hired) without higher education in conjunction with extensive laboratory experience. Some areas are so complicated that learning it on your own in a timely manner is overwhelming and in some cases impossible. Making clever circuits in your garage is one thing and practicing on the forefront of research and design is another.
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ah yes but we were discussing practicing engineers not researchers, Researchers are often multidisciplinary and very well studied, as you say not a lot of alternatives there
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Some areas are so complicated that learning it on your own in a timely manner is overwhelming and in some cases impossible. Making clever circuits in your garage is one thing and practicing on the forefront of research and design is another.
I'm not sure I agree completely agree with this, although it is true to some extent. As a PhD student/researcher myself, I'm constantly learning things on my own that academic faculty just can't teach me. I'm a mechanical engineer, but my research requires a lot of instrumentation that doesn't exist or isn't commercially available so I have to built it myself. A lot of what I do is optical and very very sensitive analog circuit design (talking 10's of fA and pV here) that a lot of professors and other EE PhD's at my uni just don't have much knowledge or experience with things this sensitive and can't help me without devoting a large amount of their own time. While a typical (and probably smarter) student would just change research topics, I search papers, app notes, and perform small experiments in order to learn and figure this stuff out.
More to the point, a formal education, no matter how advanced it is, isn't going to teach you everything (realistically, not even 5%) that you need to know. Whether you work at CERN doing cutting edge research, or at Sparkfun developing the next LED christmas tree, the best education is the one you give yourself. Formal schooling can save you a bit of time but its not something that can be relied upon, especially if you're doing cutting edge research.
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Guys I have employed many engineers in my day so no need to tell me about what they are or not. I just was curious about what degree Dave has.
You have?
I am starting UF in two semesters and will be getting a degree in Electrical Engineering. I watch all of Dave's videos and love them. Just wondering what degree he has.
Since these two statements from you hardly match I don't believe you. But anyhow, this is a public forum. We discuss what we want, not what you want us to discuss. And since Dave couldn't be bothered to give you an answer until now, your question was probably not very relevant.
Yes I have, Just because I am Starting at UF does not mean I have not employed Engineers. I retired from the concrete industry in 06' with over 200 employees. Just because I am new you think I am a troll? Please!
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Guys I am not doing this to get a job. I like education and intend on getting an EE degree. Call engineers stupid if you want to. And yes you can have a degree and be worthless.
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Guys I am not doing this to get a job. I like education and intend on getting an EE degree. Call engineers stupid if you want to. And yes you can have a degree and be worthless.
We know we have digressed from the original topic of the thread but sometimes its worth perpetuating a thread for the sake of other readers aside from the the original poster, especially if its a sought after or hot topic.
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Guys I am not doing this to get a job. I like education and intend on getting an EE degree. Call engineers stupid if you want to. And yes you can have a degree and be worthless.
We know we have digressed from the original topic of the thread but sometimes its worth perpetuating a thread for the sake of other readers aside from the the original poster, especially if its a sought after or hot topic.
Well Dave has obviously chosen not to answer so we can let the discussion go where we choose.
Getting a degree with give you a structured learning process and ensure you have the basis of every aspect covered by it. Of course it is up to the student to take things further, If your going into the practical field I expect there are a lot of practical things a degree may not teach or not have time to teach. Theory and practice are both necessary in learning and the practical side is up to you to do and you will if your taking your degree seriously
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It depends on the degree and the university.
For example a degree in surf science studied at somewhere like Luton is worth nothing
Nice to see my home town get a mention but I think it's quite funny to say that Luton Uni had such a bad reputation that they renamed it to Bedfordshire Uni in order to leave the reputation behind with the name. Don't think it worked somehow! Also another funny point is on A-level results day they were standing outside college telling us that we only needed 2 A-levels to get into Luton and that it wasn't too late to apply!
But I agree that having a degree doesn't make you an engineer, but I think at the moment is pretty necessary. I mean it took me about 3 months since graduating my EE Masters to find a job so I can only imagine it being much longer with no degree at all.
And admittedly I may know the maths, the programming and the design but I have no idea how to make a good design. I think the months since I've left uni studying on my own have offered more applicable experience into good and cost effective design than just learning the theory at uni.
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But I agree that having a degree doesn't make you an engineer, but I think at the moment is pretty necessary. I mean it took me about 3 months since graduating my EE Masters to find a job so I can only imagine it being much longer with no degree at all.
I don't think so.
A person with no degree and 10 years experience working in the relevent field would be more employable than someone who's just walked out of university.
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I am fairly certain Dave doesn't have a degree...He explains in some of his old videos. The "When I was a boy" video springs to mind, I think?
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there was a time when people were valued for what they were and had achieved, sadly no more
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Maybe the right question to ask is why those who have or plan to get a degree decided to do so.
It is also interesting that a couple thought that one that goes for a degree (assuming first) cannot hire engineers.
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I work in IT and don't have a degree.
The lack of a degree has never been a factor in getting work, probably because I have many years of experience.
These days, industry certifications are what employers seem to be looking for i.e. CCNA, RHCE, VMware etc
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I did once work with a mechanical engineer who wouldn't listen to anyone - He had a masters degree in mechanical engineering, I only had a degree in Electronics so he didnt have to pay any attention to me at all.
The result was me pointing out that the new box he had designed (box 2) could only be fitted if boxes 3 and 5 were removed or not fitted. However, box 3 was wealed onto the side, and box 5 was what box 2 was mounted on. When the box was delivered, one of the fitteres got so fed up he dragged the know it all down to the assembly area and told him to do it himself.
It is not the quality of the degree that is of concern - it is how you have used it.
Neil
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I did once work with a mechanical engineer who wouldn't listen to anyone - He had a masters degree in mechanical engineering, I only had a degree in Electronics so he didnt have to pay any attention to me at all.
The result was me pointing out that the new box he had designed (box 2) could only be fitted if boxes 3 and 5 were removed or not fitted. However, box 3 was wealed onto the side, and box 5 was what box 2 was mounted on. When the box was delivered, one of the fitteres got so fed up he dragged the know it all down to the assembly area and told him to do it himself.
It is not the quality of the degree that is of concern - it is how you have used it.
Neil
yes I have a few like that where I work, if they can model it on a computer they think it can be made, and I'm the mug in the middle trying to keep all departments happy
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there was a time when people were valued for what they were and had achieved, sadly no more
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I still believe in that philosophy, in fact many time experience is far more valuable than a degree but experience and a degree is a wonderful thing.
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I work in IT and don't have a degree.
The lack of a degree has never been a factor in getting work, probably because I have many years of experience.
These days, industry certifications are what employers seem to be looking for i.e. CCNA, RHCE, VMware etc
I spent the last 2 years getting an Associates degree, and now I'm going to spend the next 2 and a half months getting a certification. I'm betting the certification is going to help me more.
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Funny enough, Dave is still silent (even if he was reading this thread)...
As many others, I think it's not the degree that matters, it's the things you learn to achieve it, of course.
In my secondary school I learnt many practical things, and some theory about electronics, but school couldn't give me the point of view the University did, and that I find everyday very useful.
The old hand with little school and the studied with passion can get some of the same concepts from two different ways. The best knowledge, in my opinion, comes from study with practice in mind. However, I really look up to people who are able to make EE without much formal education, unless they think that one who studied is necessarily a stupid.
I always hated lessons where the teacher didn't make any examples, but at the same time many examples do not make a theory. In my experience, a theoretical point of view, where applicable, becomes the natural way you use to understand almost any physical event you see. Not much more, but it allows you to go a little deeper in less time.
Maybe someone very clever can achieve the same through experience, but it seems to me like wasting the experience of people who lived before.
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Please can I refer everyone to episode #54:
EEVblog #54 - Electronics - When I was a boy... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpayYlJdbJk#ws)
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I spent the last 2 years getting an Associates degree, and now I'm going to spend the next 2 and a half months getting a certification. I'm betting the certification is going to help me more.
Quite often what I see here is "teriary study of electronics" or words to that effect in job ads. I take that to mean that anything beyond a trade course would be considered. Another common phrase I see is "eligible for Engineers Australia Membership"... With an associate degree/diploma, that'll do nicely.
Coincidentally, I'm TRYING to get an associate degree qualification myself- I've all but finished my trade course in process control, and now that I'm working (and have a morgage!) I can't exactly drop everything and go do a full-time degree at Uni. I'm trying to get into an "Advanced Diploma" of electronics. Unfortunately, only four colleges in my state run such a course, all between 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 hours travel from my home, and one of them has just dropped all the part time offerings -_-
I'm not even eligible for the main associate EE courses(which are avalible 5 minutes from my home), as they have a prerequisite of an electrican's license.
If I wasn't mad keen to actually learn something, I'd have given up ages ago -_-
UPDATE: 27/1/11
I'm into the nearest college on part time... Three subjects, one 17-hour day a week, probably for four years... It might kill me, or I might learn something. Maybe both?
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sounds like the uk
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Well, after viewing all replies here I still firmly hold that China mainland has the worst educational eco system, from Kindergarden all the way to PHDs now this is a country with huge academic black hole of plagiarism and people lack of common sense in life after several thousand years of upbringing experience with classic Chinese sciences in all fields.
Decades of famine after 50's since PRC founded saw a ten year Cultural revolution ruining all, the nation started to see some hope since 80s while fast capitalization stormed the coastal cities like Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou creating mega cities with population beyond the whole Australians.
Now, it takes 200,000 RMB as an entry fee to get in a decent kindergarden where teachers focus more English than Chinese education, or too much knowledge oriented recitation, writing and math drilling etc.
Elementary kids pay a lot greater to squeeze in a decent school where kids are toiling working hard and commute to school with their wheeled schoolbags (too heavy to carry with).
Besides, kids are pushed to all kinds of extra hours on weekends or forced to drill musical instruments.
Kids have to fight for limited decent Junior highs with a heavy load of preparation within a year.
High school kids nearly know nothing besides their homework and biased (or you may say politically corrected) textbooks.
Since no renovation and creation are encouraged, all kids are taught to copy since they are less than 10 year old. Textbooks seldom see foot notes thus kids live with plagiarism, mechanic English, poor Chinese literacy and a general lack of life experience.
Thus over 90% would choose majors or colleges that they don't like and suffer. That's already good since number of colleges are far away from enough.
Every classroom since elementary schools "herds" over 60 students. For high schools over 90.
At the same time, millions of kids in every province living in remote areas do not enjoy basic facilities.
Google Chinese education and all those international grass root NGOs you would know a lot.
I was born in 1984 and enjoyed a classic Chinese education.
Unfortunately now with all the conveniences like Internet, VPN, youtube, SNS, iTunesU etc. kids born after 90s learn way less that we do. What a shame.
Uni? One supervisor can recruit over 150 PHD students at one time every year.
Master degrees are given to huge class sizes each year and nearly all are not be original and creative.
This is the black hole in my mind.
I studied two and half years Medicine before switched to Linguistics (which took over a year of bureaucracy) so I witness the vast majority of disqualified people are now operating on human beings.
Good to know, huh?
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Same thing applies in the mechanical realm. A person graduating from trade school as a machinist knows just enough to probably not hurt themselves in the shop. The real learning occurs on the job as an apprentice where the rubber hits the road and a mentor passes on knowledge that has taken years to acquire. But as Dave is an example of, the most people who are really, really good at their profession are the ones who had a burning passion as a child and were self motivated to learn. These people excel because of an insatiable interest in their field and a many year head start on those that pick a vocation in the first year of college.
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I think that Dave Jones was born in 1973 +-1year. In 2002 he was 29 years old according to this article in Hills News.
http://www.artofinternetdating.com/reviews.htm (http://www.artofinternetdating.com/reviews.htm)
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Every sane owner of a degree will tell you that the degree is "just" the admission ticket for the corresponding profession.
Well, I consider myself sane and from my experience degrees are very valuable, forcing one to learn to a depth that is rarely achieved by self learning or by on the job experience.
I was working professionally for a few years designing boards and writing firmware with high school education only and then realized how shallow my knowledge was without all that mathematical and theoretical background.
Bottom line, they are not just tickets, they actually made me a much better engineer.
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I think that Dave Jones was born in 1973 +-1year. In 2002 he was 29 years old according to this article in Hills News.
http://www.artofinternetdating.com/reviews.htm (http://www.artofinternetdating.com/reviews.htm)
It's more -1 year (~9 yo in '81) :) :
https://youtu.be/XpayYlJdbJk?t=209 (https://youtu.be/XpayYlJdbJk?t=209)
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The nice thing about degrees is that they do force you to study some topics that might not interest you, but that some other, hopefully more experienced, people believe you will find useful in your career. My BSEE included modern physics, a lot of calculus and some differential equations, formal treatment of signals (s domain, etc), economics, statistics, writing, and even engineering ethics.
Of course, they can't make you LEARN any of that, but you have to pass the classes.
You can do a lot of electronic design without knowing anything about ANY of those things, but a) they have been useful at various times to varying degree and b) even when not, I think they make my "picture" of the world a bit richer and I might be a better engineer for it.
Overall, I'm glad to have had all those classes.
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Every sane owner of a degree will tell you that the degree is "just" the admission ticket for the corresponding profession.
Well, I consider myself sane and from my experience degrees are very valuable, forcing one to learn to a depth that is rarely achieved by self learning or by on the job experience.
I was working professionally for a few years designing boards and writing firmware with high school education only and then realized how shallow my knowledge was without all that mathematical and theoretical background.
Bottom line, they are not just tickets, they actually made me a much better engineer.
Indeed! And nobody is going to sit down and learn to solve differential equations as a hobby - at least not any engineer I ever met. It's hard work and can only really be achieved after spending quite a bit of time with calculus. Another subject that might be difficult to self-teach.
Fourier, Laplace, Maxwell's Equations? Forget about it! These things are tough!
I'll tell you what is nice about EE school circa '73: We used slide rules and did most of the math in our heads. It's fun to be sitting in a meeting and when a number question comes up, just spout off the answer to a couple of significant digits while everybody else is struggling to find their calculator app. The look of shock when they eventually confirm your answer is priceless. Yes, they'll have more digits but that isn't the point!
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I'll tell you what is nice about EE school circa '73: We used slide rules and did most of the math in our heads. It's fun to be sitting in a meeting and when a number question comes up, just spout off the answer to a couple of significant digits while everybody else is struggling to find their calculator app. The look of shock when they eventually confirm your answer is priceless. Yes, they'll have more digits but that isn't the point!
Uh I hate calculator apps, Always have a scientific caculator to hand, nothing beats the actual device versus an approximation in an app.
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Please can I refer everyone to episode #54:
EEVblog #54 - Electronics - When I was a boy... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpayYlJdbJk#ws)
It's 20 minutes long. Time mark please?
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Uh I hate calculator apps, Always have a scientific caculator to hand, nothing beats the actual device versus an approximation in an app.
Gotta have an ENG function, none of that SCI rubbish. Also a shift button to change the x10 exponent displayed in +/- ENG jumps - 3,6,9,12 etc.
As for Dave and his very successful marriage score, using his tried and trusted internet dating skills - he is clearly punching well beyond his weight :-DD Nicole His Shiela is a scorcher! ;)
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Within reaching distance, I have an HP-48GX and an HP Prime Graphic Calculator with the Prime set for RPN. I prefer the GX...
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Please can I refer everyone to episode #54:
EEVblog #54 - Electronics - When I was a boy... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpayYlJdbJk#ws)
It's 20 minutes long. Time mark please?
Just watch it, you can't be that busy.
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Just watched it.
Brings back memories - but my experience started a little earlier. Tandy (Radio Shack) hadn't arrived in Australia and the kit my parents bought me was the Philips EE20.
Component purchasing was a real exercise - and I remember getting a bunch of 7400 series TTL from an American advertiser in Electronics Australia. I had to get an international bank cheque and mail it over with my order. I can still remember it was payable through the Chemical Bank New York, New York.
Today component purchasing is incredibly easy, impossibly cheap and unimaginably more diverse.
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I think that Dave Jones was born in 1973 +-1year. In 2002 he was 29 years old according to this article in Hills News...
I think I am a bit older. Just started dyeing my hair too :(