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Where did you go to college?
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gregariz:

--- Quote from: Frangible on September 14, 2011, 05:33:26 pm ---
--- Quote from: IanB on September 11, 2011, 06:55:54 pm ---One thing I would suggest, if you are thinking about an engineering degree, is to pick one of the "hard" disciplines like electrical, mechanical or chemical engineering. Avoid the the "soft" disciplines like software engineering. Software honestly doesn't gain much respect in business or industry and considering the costs involved a software engineering degree is not good value for money. If there is one subject that is easily self-taught, it is programming.

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This is the kind of BS you'll get from hiring people if you apply for a position sans degree.  The gap between a true software engineer and a programmer is the same as the difference between an electrical engineer and a bench tech or a mechanical engineer and a mechanic.  A lot of people call themselves "Software Engineers" because they've taught themselves Java, or because they're experts at writing C# apps,  but have no real concept about how the code they produce actually fits into the bigger system - that's where engineering comes in. 
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It took software engineering a long time to get accepted within a number of engineering organizations because of the scepticism with which it was/is viewed. I think probably the OP was thinking in terms of the requirements within many companies where the software exercise is not so complicated as to require all of the skills that a software engineering degree may provide - but rather a somewhat more straightforward programming exercise to complement a bigger system design. All engineering degrees require that the student study some level of programming, but without the breadth you will find in a software engineering program.

But these are the types of arguments I've seen surrounding various 'new' types of engineering ever since I can remember. I have come to the sad conclusion that engineering is no longer a profession, just a wide disperse vocation. When you hire someone with an engineering degree you never know what you are going to get, its just a pot shoot. Most are just hackers who know alot about one very narrow thing - usually programming microcontrollers, cutting some code or some similiar embedded system. I've seen everything from botanists to biologists hacking code and embedded systems. Finding a good engineer that could properly design a mildly complex transistor circuit or god forbid a $2 transistor radio without hacking an existing circuit is as rare as you like, let alone know how to also code or layout an embedded controller as well.
IanB:

--- Quote from: Frangible on September 14, 2011, 05:33:26 pm ---This is the kind of BS you'll get from hiring people if you apply for a position sans degree.  The gap between a true software engineer and a programmer is the same as the difference between an electrical engineer and a bench tech or a mechanical engineer and a mechanic.  ...
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This kind of "BS" is however the prevailing reality in the market today. Many employers want only to employ mechanics or or techs at a lowly tech salary, but think they are getting the skills of an engineer. You don't want to be competing in that job market (unless you are happy to sell your skills for a minimum wage).

The reality is that software engineering does not have recognition or pedigree. There is no recognized professional institution for software engineering comparable to the IEEE, and few U.S. states have a software engineering P.E. qualification.


--- Quote from: Time on September 14, 2011, 06:48:53 pm ---Trying tell that to the loads of super well paid brilliant software engineers at Google and Microsoft.  Software engineers are one of the most sought after and well paid engineers in this day and age.  It will probably only continue to increase as well.
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This opinion is truly delusional. Please try getting a job at Google or Microsoft and report back to us on how that works out for you. Those companies and their ilk take on only a small fraction of the people looking for employment. Furthermore the likes of Google and Microsoft select for exceptionally smart people with good interview skills. A software engineering qualification is somewhat secondary when it comes to getting through their interview processes. (But being brilliant helps enormously.)


--- Quote from: gregariz on September 14, 2011, 07:22:46 pm ---It took software engineering a long time to get accepted within a number of engineering organizations because of the scepticism with which it was/is viewed. ...
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The trouble I think is that software engineering is still immature. What is worse, the industry gives little impression of knowing how to do what they are supposed to do. There is a never ending stream of ideas about how to fix the mistakes of the past and finally do software right, the latest being the whole raft of Agile methodologies. Other engineering disciplines don't have this problem. They know what they are supposed to do and how to do it, and they just get on with doing it.

Therefore I stand by my opinion. If you want to do software engineering, that's great. Working with software can be rewarding and fun. But don't make a software engineering degree your sole qualification and your only entry to this field. Study something stable and mature with professional recognition, and branch out from there. Make your foundation "software + X" rather than just "software", where "X" is an application domain that appeals to you.
gregariz:

--- Quote from: IanB on September 15, 2011, 06:53:40 am ---The trouble I think is that software engineering is still immature. What is worse, the industry gives little impression of knowing how to do what they are supposed to do. There is a never ending stream of ideas about how to fix the mistakes of the past and finally do software right, the latest being the whole raft of Agile methodologies. Other engineering disciplines don't have this problem. They know what they are supposed to do and how to do it, and they just get on with doing it.

Therefore I stand by my opinion. If you want to do software engineering, that's great. Working with software can be rewarding and fun. But don't make a software engineering degree your sole qualification and your only entry to this field. Study something stable and mature with professional recognition, and branch out from there. Make your foundation "software + X" rather than just "software", where "X" is an application domain that appeals to you.

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I largely agree with you however I also think that 'electronic engineering' is in somewhat similar trouble, having splintered badly to the point as I said above - you never quite know what skillset one might have. And the IEEE/IET/IEAust appear clueless as to recommend a minimum design skillset that graduates should be required to express. The IEAust was that bad IMO that it appeared to ditch the whole concept that an engineer should actually be able to design anything at all instead focusing on basic science and management. In addition I have often worked with Mechanical Engineers who appear to me to have learn't little more than CAD and project management - but I suspect at least in that degree there is somewhat more of a standardized curriculum/educational outcomes.
westfw:
Very few people graduate with ANY degree that makes them immediately valuable in ANY industry.  At best they understand enough basic concepts, tools, and "background" to become useful in "not too long", with training.  Not that there is a lot of unity about what constitutes "useful."  There are whole industries where knowing how to program in assembly language (ANY assembly language) is completely irrelevant, and you can probably learn one programming language per quarter and still be expected to write in something else when you get to your first employer...
Time:
I guess watching Microsoft and Google wage insane job offer wars over several of my college and gradschool buddies would make me delusional.  Seems pretty common place to me.
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