EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Beginners => Topic started by: Dutch RC on August 09, 2017, 02:13:19 pm
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Edit: I bought a Rigol DS1054Z and fully unlocked it, Now trying to learn how everything works.
Hi all,
I'm a complete oscilloscope noob and have a few questions for you.
First some background details.
I'm from Holland 37yo trained as car mechanic when I was 16 with little electronics knowledge and now a process operator in a factory.
So just a little electronics knowledge.
My hobby is flying with drones and this is why I think I need an oscilloscope.
My plan is: Measuring FPV Camera latency like in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz36GJC7gd0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz36GJC7gd0)
And I want to measure noise on the power system, Then reduce the noise in the video feed for better image.
I founf the video from Dave about the Rigol DS1054Z which looks a bit overkill for the things I want though because I don't know what else I can do with a scope and i want to get something future proof I think a 400/500 dollar limit should get me something very decent.
A local seller offers the Rigol for €400,- and for the same price they also offerd me a Owon XDS3064E. The standard specs look a little bit better for the Owon, So I searched for reviews and there aren't any.
Now my questions to you guys is this.
Do you have any advice for a scope up to 500 USD or should I pick the Rigol or Owon.
I'm aware you can get a old analog scope on Ebay though in my country I can't find any for a low price and when I can get one it's from another country and shipping is killing the fun.
Both are 4 channels, for now I need 2. For the future I don't know so 4 would be nice right?
Rigol DS1054Z https://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/1000z/ (https://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/1000z/)
Bandwidth 50 MHz
Sample rate 1GS/s (250 MS/s 4 channels, 500 MS/s 2 channels)
Memory 12 Mpts
Waveform capture rate 30.000 wfm/s
Display 7" TFT, 800x480 pixels 160,000 colors
Owon XDS3064E http://www.owon.com.hk/products_info.asp?ProID=195#sthash.tXx1juJT.dpbs (http://www.owon.com.hk/products_info.asp?ProID=195#sthash.tXx1juJT.dpbs)
Bandwidth 60 MHz
Sample rate 1GS/s
Vertical resolution 8 bit
Memory 40 Mpts
Waveform capture rate 45.000 wfm/s
Display 8" LCD 800 x 600 pixels
The Rigol can be hacked and become a 100 MH/z one right?
For the specs I'd say get the Owon, my guts say get the Rigol because there are no reviews for the Owon. Open for suggestions!!
Many thanks for the comments and i'm looking forward to them,
Jasper
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I got the Rigol DS1054Z myself and I`m quite happy with it.
The Siglent SDS1202X-E has been released recently in order to compete with the Rigol DS1054Z in that price range and also seems a good option. I would probably stay away from the Owon knowing that the DS1054Z has been so good value for the buck for everyone.
If you are buying in Europe, I got mine at batterfly.com and the service was good, they have both the Rigol and the Siglent, so you can also check in there.
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Another vote for the DS1054Z. Siglent is more expensive and less channels. Bandwidth it higher though but you'll likely not need anything quite as high as a beginner.
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Unfortunately, the Owon XDS models are over your budget:
- XDS3064E (http://www.ebay.de/itm/OWON-XDS3064E-4-Kanal-Oszilloskop-60MHz-1GS-s-Touch-25MHz-Generator-VGA-DSO-/132284099828?hash=item1eccbf2cf4:g:jFAAAOSwhURZhH4O) (649,95EUR)
- XDS3104E (http://www.ebay.de/itm/OWON-XDS3104E-4-Kanal-Oszilloskop-100MHz-1GS-s-Touch-25MHz-Generator-VGA-DSO-/142465981892) (699,95EUR)
Also, it seems the decode protocols, touch screen and other interesting goodies are options, not standard. :( And no idea if they can be unlocked/added yourself vs. buying the codes/hardware from Owon. :-//
Regarding the Rigol 1054Z:- Least expensive place to get it in the EU is from Batterfly for 327,95EUR with free shipping within the EU (here (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z))*
- They can be unlocked to obtain the following:
- 100MHz
- Memory doubles to 24M
- All of the software features, such as the decode protocols and advanced triggering, are set to unlimited
For half the cost or less, the Rigol offers a lot more value for the money (which is why it's so popular with our members, me included >:D). So you might want to take a serious look to see if you really need the specs of the XDS series at (the savings could go to something else you need). ;)
* They offer bundles, such as adding a Hakko FX888D, FX888D + Extech EX330, and various Salae Logic models, so if you're in need and have the funds, give them a look. FWIW, they've the best prices I've seen in the EU.
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I haven't heard anything about recent Owon scopes, but earlier models weren't recommended.
For the past year or so I've been using a Rigol DS1054Z mostly to work on bench power supplies, uninterruptible power supplies, function generators, audio amplifiers, and guitar effects. Most of the time two channels are enough, but I have occasionally used three. So, I'm glad I have a four-channel scope.
I haven't worked on drones, but since they have four motors I imagine there would be circumstances that would benefit from being able to monitor four signals.
The Rigol is by no means perfect, but since it's quite mature now, the firmware has had many revisions to fix things (i.e., no waiting for bugs to be squashed) as well as add new functionality. Repositioning traces up and down on the screen can be sluggish, but faster scopes have fewer channels, cost more, or both. If I had to go through the purchase process over again today, with the same budget, I'd still get the 1054Z.
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Unfortunately, the Owon XDS models are over your budget:- XDS3064E (http://www.ebay.de/itm/OWON-XDS3064E-4-Kanal-Oszilloskop-60MHz-1GS-s-Touch-25MHz-Generator-VGA-DSO-/132284099828?hash=item1eccbf2cf4:g:jFAAAOSwhURZhH4O) (649,95EUR)
- XDS3104E (http://www.ebay.de/itm/OWON-XDS3104E-4-Kanal-Oszilloskop-100MHz-1GS-s-Touch-25MHz-Generator-VGA-DSO-/142465981892) (699,95EUR)
Also, it seems the decode protocols, touch screen and other interesting goodies are options, not standard. :( And no idea if they can be unlocked/added yourself vs. buying the codes/hardware from Owon.
They are pretty expensive there, I found them on a local website for less €395 60MHz & €495 100MHz http://www.eleshop.nl/owon-xds3064e-3104e.html (http://www.eleshop.nl/owon-xds3064e-3104e.html)
Though I see a lot of DS1054Z votes already, and I didn't know that the memory was also software unlocking.
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DS1054Z in my PCB assembly house, 3 years.... works OK> :)
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Definitely better pricing than what I found. :-+ You really need to sit down and see if you really need the improved specifications on the Owon or things like advanced triggers and protocol decoding that you get for free with the DS1054Z once unlocked (and it's still a little less expensive than the XDS3064E). If it turns out you do need the improved specifications, I'd suggest waiting a bit to allow for some reviews to surface (unless you like being a guinea pig :P).
Regarding the importance of mature firmware vs. early revisions on a new product, I have to agree with bitseeker. Think of it this way; do you want to spend your time debugging your project, or trying to figure out if your scope is functioning properly or not?
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Thanks, though batterfly is without taxes
Sub-Totale: 327,95€
Trasporto TNT: 0,00€
IVA / VAT: 72,15€
Totale: 400,10€
Still cheaper than my local shop.
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If you are in NL, buy it here: http://www.eleshop.nl/rigol-ds-oscilloscope.html (http://www.eleshop.nl/rigol-ds-oscilloscope.html) much easier if you need to resolve a warranty problem.
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I bought mine one here in NL. http://www.arbenelux.com/brands/rigol-technologies/rigol-oscilloscope/ds1054z/
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Yup I contacted eleshop first and they came up with the Owon, still doubt to be honest.
Specs are good for the Owon just not sure about functionality, warranty and quality.
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I would be cautious about a newly released Owon model. From what I've observed, you would really need to wait until others have used that particular model and give their reports on it. They don't seem to be consistent in what they release.
The 1054Z, however, has been well and truly road tested.
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The Owon looks better to me then the Rigol, i think the Owon is just new so no movies yet ?, please correct me if i,m wrong.
The Rigol is years old already.
I have to look into it, the Rigol has a big cooling fan noise, i dont know about the Owon,
once there is more info i would buy the Owon, 4 channel competition for the Rigol, exelent, i was waiting for this.
Does the Owon has serial encoding ?
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The Rigol UI is pleasant to use though. This is a killer feature.
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It seems the Owon has only 2 probes included ?, while the Rigol has 4 for sure.
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I'm going to go against the grain and recommend the Digilent Analog Discovery 2 for several reasons.
1) $280 is cheaper than all of the scopes you're looking at. 30 MHz, 100 MS/s is admittedly worse than them, but I'd argue is more than adequate for a beginner. The interface will likely be more clunky without dedicated buttons/knobs, but should still be adequate once you get the feel for it.
2) It's USB, which means it's portable, which is likely very beneficial for flying drone work.
3) In addition to the scope, you get a spectrum analyzer, network analyzer, logic analyzer, function generator, pattern generator, voltmeter, and power supply. Yes each of these functions is limited compared to the comparable dedicated device, but again, we're talking $280 in a USB-driven portable unit. I have a scope, function generator, multiple power supplies, multiple logic analyzers, multiple multimeters, and yet I still own an AD2 for when I'm in the field and I need all of that functionality crammed into one small, portable, all-in-one unit.
http://store.digilentinc.com/analog-discovery-2-100msps-usb-oscilloscope-logic-analyzer-and-variable-power-supply/ (http://store.digilentinc.com/analog-discovery-2-100msps-usb-oscilloscope-logic-analyzer-and-variable-power-supply/)
I'd recommend at least downloading the interface software, you can run it in demo mode without the device to see how it handles.
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I have Rigol ds1054Z as a beginner I can say its really great.
You wont go wrong with it I'm sure unless you have some specific requirements that this one does not have.
But for general beginner I think its quite good option.
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Hi JanJansen, maybe you could contact eleshop with some questions? I'm a true beginner and might ask the wrong questions.
Then we both know more about the Owon before I'm going to play safe and get a Rigol.
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Thanks suicidaleggroll, I'll have a look at the software.
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Hi, its going to be my first digital scope, so i am not sure about everything.
If you buy the Owon, you can within 14 days send it back for the Rigol they say at the Eleshop site.
I would contact them before buying indeed.
I have this 400 euro laying ready, i look what new models they release more.
Suppose Rigol makes a new budget scope for 400, with faster chips, and hope they learned from the mistakes they made with bad firmwares.
Do you need it fast ?, by the way : your hobby is illegal frequencions :-+
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Well, this will be my personal opinion, having it posted at the AVRFreaks community on December of 2015. Let me quote that information, since those posts of the Off-Topic section of that community are off-limits for the non-members:
I wrote, in 2015.12.20 (http://www.avrfreaks.net/comment/1744736#comment-1744736): jgmdesign wrote:
As the new title says....which one
[...]
WHICH ONE TO GET
Jim,
Considering that, hardware-wise, DS1104Z==DS1074Z==DS1054Z (meaning that all of these models have EXACTLY the same hardware), by getting the DS1054Z model and doing a brief search in EEVBlog.com for the term "DS1054Z hack" (or for the term "Riglol") you can end up with a fully-fledged DS1104Z at the cost of a DS1054Z and of a few minutes of your spare time.
Counting beans, we have:
DS1104Z: 100 MHz DSO with 4 channels +$830.00
AT-DS1000Z: Advanced Triggering Option +$191.00
MEM-DS1000Z: Option Extends deep memory +$197.00
REC-DS1000Z: Real Time Waveform Record +$146.00
SA-DS1000Z: Serial Bus Analysis Option +$174.00
--Total worth of: $1538.00
Purchasing the:
DS1054Z: 50 MHz DSO with 4 channels -$399.00
--Gain worth of: $1139.00
Now, ethically-wise, RIGOL is the one who leaves the window open for anyone to have their products hacked. If the company wanted to stop that in the first place, all they would have to do was to simply change the bootloader ECC private keys of their products; but they have not changed them.
This is the same exactly marketing strategy of that company for their relatively 'ancient' DS1052E models (http://www.avrfreaks.net/comment/933037#comment-933037) as well as almost all of their products (see the DS2000, DS4000, DSA815, DP832, etc. lines of products), because they might not be selling as much of their 'upgraded' models but the are vastly selling their base models.
If they decided that this (unethical) marketing model suits them, there must not be such a question for their clients, at all.
-George
<EDIT>
Following Alan's advice, above, by visiting the following address you will see that, right now, there are 408 pieces of DS1054Z in stock!
http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?b=y&v=7906 (http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?b=y&v=7906)
Second part (2015.12.26 (http://www.avrfreaks.net/comment/1748466#comment-1748466)):
UPDATE
The DS1054Z unit arrived the day before yesterday and all I can say is that this specific 'budget' piece of test equipment is far from what we can call a low-budget machine; especially after its 'enhancement' works.
Though the machine might be lacking of the GUI responsiveness and the bandwidth of its multi-thousand USD costing bigger brothers (DS2000/DS4000/DS6000) or even some of the bell-and-whistles they have like the screensaver(!), it will display decently nothing less that what the vastly more expensive units mentioned will, since it has 1.0 GSa/s product bandwidth (see its front-end ADC (http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/hmcad1511.pdf) unit) and 24Mpoints of total memory plus high resolution (12-bit BoxCar averaging) waveform display, advanced mathematical and statistical functions, a lot of advanced triggering options, serial decoding operations (not at <10 MSa/s the 'fast' decoders of the market will but at its full product bandwidth), frame (segment) recording mode, various data importing/exporting functions and much more --see the specifications.
Before...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/which-digital-oscilloscope-for-a-true-beginner-should-i-get/?action=dlattach;attach=341015;image)
... and after the magic procedure:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/which-digital-oscilloscope-for-a-true-beginner-should-i-get/?action=dlattach;attach=341017;image)
Did I forget to mention that this is a four-channel machine (!) with all the functionality cited above for USD 399 (before someone doing their magic to release all that optional power)?
Third part (2015.12.29 (http://www.avrfreaks.net/comment/1750461#comment-1750461)):
Nice try, guys!
By the way, I am afraid that, by now, the device must have been rendered even more useless... :P
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/which-digital-oscilloscope-for-a-true-beginner-should-i-get/?action=dlattach;attach=341019;image)
What I like the most in this entry-level DSO is the intensity-graded display that emulates the trace persistence by mimicking the analog scopes Z-axis modulation. I think it was Tektronix in the late nineties the one who called that feature Digital Phosphor technology.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/which-digital-oscilloscope-for-a-true-beginner-should-i-get/?action=dlattach;attach=341021;image)
This is the measurement of the DDS modulated digital output (Ch 3) startup time since the PTT button (Ch 2) falling edge, while the generated 67.0 Hz sub-tone output sinewave (Ch 1) can be seen, of the ATtiny85-based CTCSS encoder/decoder I am currently working on.
-George
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Hi, its going to be my first digital scope, so i am not sure about everything.
If you buy the Owon, you can within 14 days send it back for the Rigol they say at the Eleshop site.
I would contact them before buying indeed.
I have this 400 euro laying ready, i look what new models they release more.
Suppose Rigol makes a new budget scope for 400, with faster chips, and hope they learned from the mistakes they made with bad firmwares.
Do you need it fast ?, by the way : your hobby is illegal frequencions :-+
I've been looking for a month or two now, I don't need it tomorrow.
What do you mean by illegal frequencions?
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I'm aware you can get a old analog scope on Ebay though in my country I can't find any for a low price and when I can get one it's from another country and shipping is killing the fun.
Not that I advise to buy an analog scope but if you can not find analoog scopes in the Netherlands you are not looking at the right places. You can find them easy, pricing is about 1 euro/MHz. Most analog scopes I have were free ( I have 8 analog and 2 DSO)
I have a scope and a DMM from Eleshop but also bought other things there. Nice guys.
By the way, the guy in the video used a scope with isolated channels. I have no experience with measuring what you want so I do not know if you need isolated channels but before you spend 500 euro maybe something to think about
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Drones are battery-powered. Nevertheless, I shall paste the requisite EEVblog episode on how not to blow up your oscilloscope.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaELqAo4kkQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaELqAo4kkQ)
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Note that hacking the Keysight 1000X series is not yet trouble free from what I've seen. Research the relevant threads before going that route if your intent is to hack it. If you're going to use it as-is, it's a very nice scope and responsive.
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I checked Ebay.nl Marktplaats.nl and asked on circuitsonline.nl
There's another video from him where he's using another scope and not that Fluke.
I think it's this one.
https://youtu.be/aqLIyzVqah8
On one channel he's measuring the power after his led switch and on the other the output signal from the camera video wire, so I can't tell if I need isolated channels or not.
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He said it's a peaktech 1240.
I'll definitely have a look at how not to blow 500
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I checked Ebay.nl Marktplaats.nl and asked on circuitsonline.nl
You asked on CO if you could use a 50 dollar toy-scope kit. But for 50 euro's you can find plenty analog 10 to 20 MHz scopes. Analog scopes are very fast realtime, they are only blind at the retrace. In a nutshell, the analog scope measures a voltage at time x, this signal is converted in a voltage that moves the beam. There is a very very short delay between the moment it is on the CRT and time x. There is a sawtooth voltage that moves the trace from left to right. This is not in steps but continue. At the end of the screen, the sawtooth voltage has to return to zero and that time it does not show data on the screen..
Besides that the scope does not show channel 1 and 2 at the same time. It switches between channels. This is the way most dual or more channel analog scopes work. For even more realtime they made dual beam scopes ( you then have a dual beam, dual channel scope but they are rare) But an analog scope will show the signal only as long as it is really there. So the jump from 0 to 12V from the switch is as long visible as the real time it takes. There is no easy way to capture that. (they used f.i. single shot and scope cameras for that.)
So an analog scope is not good for looking at one time events because it is to fast for your eyes and brain to measure the interval from the screen. A DSO is better for this.
A DSO is very blind most of the time. It measures at certain very short intervals. So it misses data between those steps. How often they do that, is the sample rate given in samples per second. Before visible on the screen it has to compute that data. So they are not really realtime. Some digital scopes measure 1 channel at a time like the dual channel single beam analog scopes, Some measure 2 channels at once like the dual beam. But a DSO only measures a fraction of the time, like less then 10%. Fast = more realtime = more expensive. There are more factors like the rate they refresh the screen, how much memory, delay between channels (but that is in ns so neglect able if your measuring ms or us).
I understand that you want the relative difference between cameras. That is not a problem. But I would try to show the effect in practical use instead producing numbers that look fancy but do not say a lot. I have no clue if the absolute numbers are useful. Your eyes need more time to blink as that camera to register, adapt and record the event. I am probably wrong but it sounds to me as snakeoil. To much unkown factors, different setups and testers that do not really know what they measure. (the influence of al other factors) Sounds like someone did something that looks very technical and the rest follows. Show the real effect during flight. If it causes a real problem it must be easy to demonstrate it in practice (I think, I never flown a drone with camera).
Sounds a bit like comparing cars at topspeed if you only use it in the city. But again, not my field of expertise.
You should compare you test setup with different scopes. If the results are more or less the same the setup could be good. If they differ a lot the setup is not good and you only measure the test gear instead of the camera. Just my two cents
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Also my analogue scope is a shit ton less noisy than the DSO. I'm keeping it for low noise measurements.
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Yup, at first I thought a DSO nano was the way to go, then I saw Dave's drive time video and I raised my budget to 500.
Like a said in CO and here, I'm a noob and open for suggestions.
I think it's very hard to show in a video that if you use camera A and you fly 75km/h and the fpv setup delay is ##ms to tell the difference between another one. 75km/h is 20.8m/s so 1/10th means your 2 meters off.
And the difference is noticeable when flying more than just a few test runs. Therefore I want to measure it and make things visible for everyone.
And I checked several options like taking pictures of stopwatches or leds and I think only a scope is really capable of making it visible.
First I want to do camera only and then all the way through the video transmitter, receiver and goggles.
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Definitely go USB scope, there's no need to get a big hunk of a scope for a beginner, especially for what you are trying to look at. This thing looks pretty bomb, but as always tread with caution on kickstarter.... https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/751733865/smartscope-reinventing-the-oscilloscope?ref=category (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/751733865/smartscope-reinventing-the-oscilloscope?ref=category)
Also going on the previous post about Analog Discovery, they have a new one out that looks real promising http://store.digilentinc.com/openscope-mz-open-source-all-in-one-instrumentation/ (http://store.digilentinc.com/openscope-mz-open-source-all-in-one-instrumentation/)
Oh how I love you, FPGA...
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$230 for a 30 MHz scope (and even that is optimistic with a 100 MS/s sampling rate) seems expensive to me. Features and maturity will probably be worse than a real bench scope.
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Definitely go USB scope, there's no need to get a big hunk of a scope for a beginner, especially for what you are trying to look at. This thing looks pretty bomb, but as always tread with caution on kickstarter.... https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/751733865/smartscope-reinventing-the-oscilloscope?ref=category (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/751733865/smartscope-reinventing-the-oscilloscope?ref=category)
For not much more than that scope you can get an Analog Discovery with its much, much more capable hardware and software. A student discount will even get you the AD for less. Or if not a student, you can get academic pricing combined with 3 months of electronics instruction via this Contextual Electronics Analog Discovery bundle (https://contextualelectronics.com/analog-discovery-2-bundle-announcement/). A very good deal IMO.
[quoteAlso going on the previous post about Analog Discovery, they have a new one out that looks real promising http://store.digilentinc.com/openscope-mz-open-source-all-in-one-instrumentation/ (http://store.digilentinc.com/openscope-mz-open-source-all-in-one-instrumentation/)
That's cool! I hadn't seen that before. The wireless browser based app allowing iOS or android tablet interace is a neat idea - especially for truly compact, mobile use. Still thouh not nearly as capable as the AD and i would not recommend it as a starting scope unless budget was severely constrained.
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Sorry, I don't think I want a USB scope. Then I have to take the equipment to my desk because I don't have a laptop or second computer for my work bench.
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I mailed Owon on theyr homesite about how many probes on August 12, 2017
Still no reply, bad company ?
You have scope already ?
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No I'm going to visit a tech guru near me, emailed him yesterday what I should bring to try what I want and need.
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It's good you have someone nearby who can get gear for you to test out, Dutch. Happy evaluating!
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Go on ebay and find yourselfe an old analog scope , something like Tektronix 475 , easy to service plus you get higher bandwith.
I personally have 475A and I love the bloody thing. I mean the build quality of that thing is just amazing.
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I've had a 475. It was amazing until it broke. Then you've got a job on your hands.
You don't know the joys of the mechanical mistakes until you need to get an attenuator out to clean it or the A4 board out.
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That's why you don't buy just one. Gotta have backups, a working reference, and spare parts. And so it begins...
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It's good you have someone nearby who can get gear for you to test out, Dutch. Happy evaluating!
That's if PA4TIM is going to read his email ;)
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That's why you don't buy just one. Gotta have backups, a working reference, and spare parts. And so it begins...
And then the next thing you know, she's left and taken the kids and you wake up at 8AM, sit up in bed, stretch out, bump your hand on the empty bottle of vodka and a 7603 that looks ashamed of itself.
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I used to work with an OWON scope a lot for some customers.
They are ok, have some bugs here and there.
At that time they were extremely cheap for the features.
(roughly 5 years ago)
The software they have is horrendous though.
Nowadays the market has changed.
Much more competitors for a decent price.
It all depends how much bandwith you need.
Are you going to build high frequency stuff and/or need to look for high frequency (switching) noise etc?
If you have the money for it, I think the DS1054Z is a very nice option.
I think they are still hackable, so first go for the cheapest one.
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Confirmed hackable. Did mine yesterday with the latest firmware :)
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Small update,
I've been talking to PA4TIM and I ordered some Light To Voltage sensors.
I hope these will be sensitive and fast enough datasheet says 7us up and down
http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/203020/TAOS/TSL252R.html (http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/203020/TAOS/TSL252R.html)
Then we will test with his equipment and see if we can make a reliable test setup.
Idea is to put the camera in front of e LED and one of the LTV on the other side of the LED.
This way we should be able to measure if the LED is ON, Then another LTV in front off the monitor to detect if the light is displayed on the screen.
There will be delays and I am convinced that PA4TIM can measure this and can deduct it in the final calculation.
I don't expect something less than 30/40 ms in a full setup and hope we can create a setup I can continue to use without the thousands of dollar equipment from PA4TIM and can be done with a hobby scope.
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Rigol DS1054Z just arrived, I unlocked it through this usb method which was very easy.
https://youtu.be/pquUqPVF39c (https://youtu.be/pquUqPVF39c)
Also updated the firmware to the latest version.
Now it's doing self-care and then I need to set probe compensation and I'll be done.
Got one question being a new user, would it be worth the money to buy a Velleman EDU06 scope learning kit?
Velleman EDU06: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyM2aFxOHXOR-t2UKWI1cBcnNg2Rh_-ef (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyM2aFxOHXOR-t2UKWI1cBcnNg2Rh_-ef)
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A learning kit is one possibility. The other is to jump in and use it on actual projects. Different people learn different ways.
Enjoy your new scope!
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I'm going to go ahead and recommend against the velleman kit oscilloscope learning kit. Most of what you see on that thing you can easily breadboard. It's not worth the money, in my opinion, as to me it was made in a time before the internet. I personally didn't find it all that useful.
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Got one question being a new user, would it be worth the money to buy a Velleman EDU06 scope learning kit?
The board costs $30 on Amazon with Prime shipping so, sure, it could be worth the money.
The thing is, with a board like this, you get exposed to making a number of different tests in a nice graduated program. Once done with the experiments, it is unlikely the board will ever be useful again. So, sell it to some other new user.
It's regrettable that the power adapter costs another $5...
There aren't too many ways to play with AC, variable AC, half and fulll wave rectified AC and so on with a single gadget. Sure, you can breadboard something but this board comes with videos showing expected results.
I'm not a new user but, if I were, I would certainly want to start somewhere and this is as good a place as any.
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Another PRO DS1054. I've got the DS1104Z 2 years ago, I'm so far fine, but considering buying a 200MHz or 300MHz Scope for my VHF/UHF ham projects - but that's a different profile than yours.
Rigol is still working/improving/bugfixing the soft/firmware of those scopes, that's quite a plus, if you see the lousy update and bugfix situation with many low budget smartphone for example; I don't know about Owon or other lowcost brands, but too much bugfixing and improvement via updates you can likely not expect.
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I never get the sense of 'learning kits'. Most of the time I think it's simply marketing BS.
There is nothing really difficult about a scope. They all have the same basic functions and some have simply some more.
Just get something that fit your needs.
So I guess the best advice for starters is, think about how you are gonna use your scope.
Are you really into digital stuff and you need to track signals/protocols?
Is it mostly just for audio, or are you developing switching circuits?
I personally am not very interested in digital protocols and stuff, but are mainly involved in high power switching circuits (power supplies, Class-D amplifiers and so on).
So basically I just only need a fast scope to see all the ringing and so on.
I also agree that it's not a bad idea to buy a cheap analog scope. For most things they are more than good enough (only a bit big)
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I guess it depends on which side you are coming from. The test board isn't really about learning to use a scope. The AC experiments are done at line frequency. Nothing scope wise to learn. Press the AUTO button and everything will work just fine. Horrors! Nobody uses the AUTO button! Except me...
The board is about circuits. Whether the user wants to have a quick way to view the difference between half and full wave rectification is really what the board is about. Again, nothing scope related to really learn. Set the time/div and V/div and it's all done. Or press AUTO...
The trigger level and trigger slope experiments might be useful.
All of this can be done in other ways. All of it is worth learning as soon as possible. This just happens to be one way of getting there. Clearly, there are others.
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The auto button only exists because everything is buried in menus these days. To get a trace up takes ages if you've been fiddling with various settings. I, before I sold it, almost always started with the auto button as it set the thing back to a default state.
I like analogue scopes because I know where everything is and should be for each signal. It's just built in. I can get a trace up on a Tek 46x with my eyes shut.
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Your intensity is set too high! ;D
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Hahahaha ;D
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So I've started playing with the latency setup PA4TIM made while I was there, He turned on a LPF on 250khz (he's using a 350mhz Hameg so way above the DS1054Z) and now I've been searching and am I right the DS1054Z fully unlocked does not have a Low Pass Filter?
The signal I get is quite noisy and makes it a bit harder to read, Not impossible tho could be better.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/which-digital-oscilloscope-for-a-true-beginner-should-i-get/?action=dlattach;attach=351848)
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Found a USB stick so could store a picture.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/which-digital-oscilloscope-for-a-true-beginner-should-i-get/?action=dlattach;attach=351859)
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If the channel is active, you can choose on the right below 'coupling' 'BW Limit' - that will add you a 20MHz LP
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My HMO-3522 has adjustable filtering, We had that at 250 kHz while testing. I used 10x probes and DC coupling. Trigger on the reference fotocell. I do not know the Rigol. I exited the led while testing with frequencies under 10 Hz
You can make a filter with some resistors and capacitors. In your case f.i. a 20kHz low pass filter. A 680 ohm series resistor and a 10nF cap to ground. The output of the fotocell via the resistor to the 10x probe and the capacitor from the probe to ground. If that is not enough or attenuates the wanted frequency to much it can be made with an opamp.
Use DC coupling because the frequency you are going to use is probably to low for AC coupling.
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Right now I have to test without function generator, Flashlight is @ 7Hz.
I set the probes and DS1054Z both to 1x
BW limit does make a difference.
I'll have to order some parts to make a filter,
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I found some parts inside a old desktop computer.
Is this right? It does make some difference with or without resistor, but I can't see any difference with or without capacitor.
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The unlocked DS1054z does have software filters: LP, HP, bandpass and notch. Look in Math>Operator, scroll down to Filter and select, then choose type and frequencies in the additional soft menu (second page) buttons.
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Thanks, now I get this purple line and makes it much easier to read.