EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Beginners => Topic started by: goethert on August 21, 2017, 04:16:41 am
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So many cheap and low quality breadboards there. I wonder who makes high quality breadboard? After searching at Tequipment.net, seems the brand "Global specialist" is a good one?
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How about 3M. I noticed W2AEW, has some on his bench.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/who-made-the-high-quality-breadboard/?action=dlattach;attach=343572)
UPDATE: Image upload
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A few months ago, there was a discussion here where the source of the 3M boards was discovered.
http://www.assemblyspecialist.com/WebStore/TSandDS.html (http://www.assemblyspecialist.com/WebStore/TSandDS.html)
They ship to the USA, but not over seas. so I guess you're lucky @goethert :)
Ash.
EDIT: When I said source, I meant manufacture. I talked to the owner there about overseas shipping and he confirmed they OEM to 3M.
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There are no "made in U.S.A."breadboard in these days?
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They are no "made in U.S.A."breadboard in these days?
Did you check out their web site? They are in Ohio. They ship only within the US, which saddens the rest of the world :)
Ash.
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You can buy the 3M breadboards on Digikey. Digikey ships world wide.
The 3M breadboards seem to cost 3 to 4 times as much as other boards.
I don't know if they are good quality.
https://www.digikey.com/products/en/prototyping-products/solderless-breadboards/638?k=breadboard&k=&pkeyword=breadboard&pv183=6610&FV=ffe0027e%2Cfffc0013&mnonly=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&stock=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=500 (https://www.digikey.com/products/en/prototyping-products/solderless-breadboards/638?k=breadboard&k=&pkeyword=breadboard&pv183=6610&FV=ffe0027e%2Cfffc0013&mnonly=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&stock=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=500)
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I use Wisher boards: http://www.wishmaker.com.tw/ (http://www.wishmaker.com.tw/) - really nice quality and reliable.
3M ones are too expensive! Global Specialities used to sell decent ones but they have gone to shit these days and are just cheap Chinese rebrands from what I can tell.
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They are no "made in U.S.A."breadboard in these days?
Did you check out their web site? They are in Ohio. They ship only within the US, which saddens the rest of the world :)
Ash.
But do they say anywhere that the breadboards are Made in USA? I didn't find it. Wouldn't you think they'd say it?
Besides, what makes one breadboard better than another? I wouldn't have a clue, not really. If nothing else this thread makes me want to know.
Given that Assembly Specialists is a manufacturer, not a distributor, and that their website goes into their manufacturing capabilities and equipment, it's reasonable to deduce that they don't outsource; they're a company others outsource to. So yes, I expect that they're made in USA, and I think the product may say so, though I don't have it in front of me to check.
Cheap breadboards have contacts made of cheap metal that deforms easily, losing grip force over time. And that force isn't that great to begin with. This leads to poor holding of components, high contact resistance, and low long term durability. The 3M/Assembly Specialist boards have high quality contacts with higher force don't lose their springiness, and the grip is much firmer period. The result is a dramatically more reliable connection with much lower contact resistance. (My worst cheap breadboard has contact resistance over an ohm, while the 3M one is just a few mOhms - and that's not the gold-plated version, whose resistance is probably lower still.) I also suspect that contact oxidation is a problem on cheap ones.
Indeed, the higher grip force of the good breadboards can actually make it hard to insert cheap Chinese resistors with their hair-thin leads!!
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I ordered two of these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/3M-Electronic-Project-Breadboard-Univ-Terminal-Strip-840-tie-points-NO-BOX-/191994779221 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/3M-Electronic-Project-Breadboard-Univ-Terminal-Strip-840-tie-points-NO-BOX-/191994779221) about 6 months ago and was pleasantly surprised that they had gold contacts.
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Global Specialties (https://globalspecialties.com/solderless-breadboards/breadboards-singles.html) has these premium breadboards EXP-300 which I have used for decades. They used to be made in USA, not sure lately.
I can't stand the cheap ones, poor connections and stiff to jam in the wire.
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I wonder who makes high quality breadboard?
Nobody.
Because you make higher quality breadboards yourself.
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You can but sometimes it's far easier dicking around on a solderless board for 2 minutes to see if something works than it is to actually find the calculator under the pile of crap on the bench and work it out ;)
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You can but sometimes it's far easier dicking around on a solderless board for 2 minutes to see if something works than it is to actually find the calculator under the pile of crap on the bench and work it out ;)
If it was only 2 minutes to get a definitively valid answer, I would agree. The problem with solderless breadboards is the capacitance (either too much or too little), inductance, and especially the highly variable contact resistance. The consequence is that you spend more time debugging the breadboard than the circuit - with the emphasis on "you", since I refuse to look at circuits on solderless breadboards :)
If inductance doesn't matter, it is much better and more certain to tack components together with solder. If inductance and capacitance matter then it it better to use one of the several manhattan or dead/live bug techniques that give reliable permanent results up to VHF/UHF.
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Because you make higher quality breadboards yourself.
For surely. Here are some basic guidelines.
http://www.hgtv.com/design/make-and-celebrate/handmade/how-to-make-a-rustic-bread-board (http://www.hgtv.com/design/make-and-celebrate/handmade/how-to-make-a-rustic-bread-board)
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Because you make higher quality breadboards yourself.
For surely. Here are some basic guidelines.
http://www.hgtv.com/design/make-and-celebrate/handmade/how-to-make-a-rustic-bread-board (http://www.hgtv.com/design/make-and-celebrate/handmade/how-to-make-a-rustic-bread-board)
I thought about that technique, but I'm uncertain that the soldered joints would be significantly better than connections on solderless breadboard.
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A few months ago, there was a discussion here where the source of the 3M boards was discovered.
http://www.assemblyspecialist.com/WebStore/TSandDS.html (http://www.assemblyspecialist.com/WebStore/TSandDS.html)
They ship to the USA, but not over seas. so I guess you're lucky @goethert :)
Ash.
EDIT: When I said source, I meant manufacture. I talked to the owner there about overseas shipping and he confirmed they OEM to 3M.
Good to know, particularly given the value prospect (i.e. the BB327 they sell for $40.00 is the same as the 3M 922327, which has an MSRP of $131.80). :-+
For those outside of the US, checking into a reshipping service may be worth looking into. Otherwise, Wisher would likely be the best choice that won't cost you a first born child.
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I wrote to Assembly Specialist and Mike Hale replied to my question "Are your breadboards made in USA?". He says "Yes they are.".
So there are indeed breadboards made in USA.
I just ordered every breadboard from their website, will see how they are. shipping fee is $30
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I wrote to Assembly Specialist and Mike Hale replied to my question "Are your breadboards made in USA?". He says "Yes they are.".
So there are indeed breadboards made in USA.
I just ordered every breadboard from there website, will see how they are. shipping fee is $30
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That pretty steep shipping fee ! :-\
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Global Specialties (https://globalspecialties.com/solderless-breadboards/breadboards-singles.html) has these premium breadboards EXP-300 which I have used for decades. They used to be made in USA, not sure lately.
I can't stand the cheap ones, poor connections and stiff to jam in the wire.
I have been looking for one or two more breadboards and as part of the research I sent Global Specialties this question:
What is the difference between breadboards PB-104 and PB-104E ? I have looked at the datasheets hosted by DIGIKEY, but cannot see a difference
This is the answer from their tech support:
I am contacting you this morning in regards to your question about the PB-104 and the PB-104E.
The main difference is that the 'E' stands for economy. The PB-104 is a better quality with parts sourced only from the US, while the PB-104E has parts coming from Taiwan. Though we still stand behind the PB-104E and it does come with a three year warranty.
FYI, these breadboards are 4x units over metal base, with 3060Tie Points, 9X8.25. The E goes for $50 and the better one for $70.
I thought this was worth posting here.
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Global Specialties (https://globalspecialties.com/solderless-breadboards/breadboards-singles.html) has these premium breadboards EXP-300 which I have used for decades. They used to be made in USA, not sure lately.
I can't stand the cheap ones, poor connections and stiff to jam in the wire.
I have been looking for one or two more breadboards and as part of the research I sent Global Specialties this question:
What is the difference between breadboards PB-104 and PB-104E ? I have looked at the datasheets hosted by DIGIKEY, but cannot see a difference
This is the answer from their tech support:
I am contacting you this morning in regards to your question about the PB-104 and the PB-104E.
The main difference is that the 'E' stands for economy. The PB-104 is a better quality with parts sourced only from the US, while the PB-104E has parts coming from Taiwan. Though we still stand behind the PB-104E and it does come with a three year warranty.
FYI, these breadboards are 4x units over metal base, with 3060Tie Points, 9X8.25. The E goes for $50 and the better one for $70.
I thought this was worth posting here.
update: I bought a bounch from asp, the quality is good. It's not stamped with made in usa though(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171110/4cefce16770f40b7e1a424fe6b2c488f.jpg)
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They may not posses a Made In USA label, but they're confirmed to be US made. :-+
Regardless, they're top quality IME (3M labeled in my case), and arguably the best available from any manufacturer. Even vs. US made Global Specialties (i.e. PB104) when pushing the frequency limits (otherwise I couldn't tell). For disclosure, mine where manufactured in the mid to late '80's.
But buying directly from ASP in the US at least is a no-brainer it seems IMHO (cheaper than an equivalent from Global Specialties non-Economy version, which are still purportedly US made). Suspect that this may also be the case in the UK/EU. Under the 3M label OTOH, ... :palm: Cost wise, it's nasty with a 3M label slapped on it either way. :--
Worst case, I wouldn't go less than Taiwanese made Wisher (also decent stuff; bought a year or so ago from a RadioShack that was closing). Not gold plated though, so I'm not sure on long-term reliability vs. the gold plated ASP/3M I'm familiar with (IIRC, Global Specialties is nickel plated).
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All this said, I actually prefer to use inexpensive protoboards (i.e. dual sided PTH pad-per-hole + SMD IC break-out boards) and solder everything. Even if it's truly not the case, I do this as it makes me more confident in the electrical connections vs. solderless breadboards, especially if you're working above ~10MHz. FWIW, I find testing a filter is usually fine within the previously mentioned ~10Hz max frequency (i.e. quick & dirty method).
Oh, and I can use this method using strictly SMD parts (i.e. 0805 works rather well on the dual sided PTH protoboards IME). Generally speaking, cheaper too. >:D
YMMV of course.
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Anyone fancy reselling these to us poor people in Europe? :D
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Anyone fancy reselling these to us poor people in Europe? :D
Can't recall.. I presume it's to do with customs & shipping*, but what's the issue for UK/EU members?
* My apologies as I didn't go back and read the entire thread. :-[
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Anyone fancy reselling these to us poor people in Europe? :D
If you don't mind absorbing the cost of shipping to UK, I'd be happy to. I am going to USA on Tuesday for 2 weeks and was gonna place an order with Assembly Specialist this weekend.
(If what you want can go in a padded envelope, postage won't be too bad, but if it has to be a box, shipping is gonna be upwards of $30 whether mailed from USA or Switzerland.)
I wasn't planning an order for myself, but if you want me to get some ProbeMaster test leads for you, I could forward those to you at the same time.
Anyone fancy reselling these to us poor people in Europe? :D
Can't recall.. I presume it's to do with customs & shipping*, but what's the issue for UK/EU members?
* My apologies as I didn't go back and read the entire thread. :-[
As far as I can tell, they just don't wanna deal with the formalities of sending abroad. Heck, I'm not sure that they really wanna deal with the formalities of selling to individuals within USA: they've raised their prices since I first posted about them! :(
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Any thought on Multicomp boards?
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Global Specialties (https://globalspecialties.com/solderless-breadboards/breadboards-singles.html) has these premium breadboards EXP-300 which I have used for decades. They used to be made in USA, not sure lately.
I can't stand the cheap ones, poor connections and stiff to jam in the wire.
I have been looking for one or two more breadboards and as part of the research I sent Global Specialties this question:
What is the difference between breadboards PB-104 and PB-104E ? I have looked at the datasheets hosted by DIGIKEY, but cannot see a difference
This is the answer from their tech support:
I am contacting you this morning in regards to your question about the PB-104 and the PB-104E.
The main difference is that the 'E' stands for economy. The PB-104 is a better quality with parts sourced only from the US, while the PB-104E has parts coming from Taiwan. Though we still stand behind the PB-104E and it does come with a three year warranty.
FYI, these breadboards are 4x units over metal base, with 3060Tie Points, 9X8.25. The E goes for $50 and the better one for $70.
I thought this was worth posting here.
UPDATE: after this email exchange, I felt encouraged to look for other GS breadboards in the same premium series but I could only find PB-10 and PB-60. After a second email with GS I learned: "Unfortunately, due to costs, the 'premium' line of breadboards was discontinued. The warranty for all of our breadboards is 3 years." Bummer !
On the positive side, Tequipment has a sale on the GS breadboards. With member discount:
PB-104 $56.36 (regular $70)
PB-10 $19.25 (regular $24.70)
PB-60 $32.76 (regular $42)
I was tempted to order one PB-104 and two PB-10s...
Then I looked for small staple shaped jumpers. The 3M go for $20 a 200pc pack, which makes it impossible... Looking at the Assembly Specialists (makers of 3M breadboards) page, I found the same jumper packs for $5.25, which makes it worth for me. This made me change my mind and I ordered one pack each of sizes .2"-1" and some of their breadboards.
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Anyone fancy reselling these to us poor people in Europe? :D
Forgot to mention to check into a reshipping service. :palm:
As far as I can tell, they just don't wanna deal with the formalities of sending abroad. Heck, I'm not sure that they really wanna deal with the formalities of selling to individuals within USA: they've raised their prices since I first posted about them! :(
Hmm.. as with my re-post to bd139, it seems a re-shipping service would be your best bet (and hopefully financially viable). If the financial side isn't, then Wisher would probably be the best way to go for cost-performance.
Don't recall the original prices of just the terminal strips, but the metal backed breadboards and jumper wires haven't changed since the last time I checked.
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Who does AS sell to? They need to hook up with mouser or digikey me thinks =)
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I’m already using wisher boards so I’m thinking this is one of those regional differences we’re going to have to live with. If those guys sold their stuff on eBay/amazon they’d make a killing. I don’t understand why companies don’t want to make money!
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Who does AS sell to? They need to hook up with mouser or digikey me thinks =)
As best I can tell, they sell to 3M, and 3M distributes to mouser, digi-key, etc.
I wouldn’t be entirely surprised if AS’s contract with 3M prohibits them from selling directly to 3M’s distributors.
It would be nice if they’d do an eBay storefront, then they could use eBay’s worldwide shipping program that takes care of reshipping and customs.
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I wouldn’t be entirely surprised if AS’s contract with 3M prohibits them from selling directly to 3M’s distributors.
This is my suspicion as well.
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It’s nice to be owned by a corporation...
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It’s nice to be owned by a corporation...
They don't have to deal with distribution, sales support staff, and marketing though (= don't have to spend $$$ on this part, which isn't cheap). Just make it and ship in volume to 3M for the most part (some direct sales on the side, but without the marketing or sales staff).
So it has some advantages.
Schmitz (http://www.schmitz-zangen.de/shop.php?lang=engl) for example operates under the same model with their cutters and pliers (i.e. ODM for C.K. Tools, Bernstein, NWS, and others).
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It’s nice to be owned by a corporation...
Schmitz (http://www.schmitz-zangen.de/shop.php?lang=engl) for example operates under the same model with their cutters and pliers (i.e. ODM for C.K. Tools, Bernstein, NWS, and others).
Not a lot of people know this, but a lot of major brands resell their products at much lower prices under no-name brands.
If you sell to the high end market you find that the price is much more elastic with a high offset. People are prepared to pay MORE than it's actually worth to get guaranteed (perceived in a lot of cases) quality.
In doing so you price yourself well out of the budget market however. Nobody in that market wants to pay premium prices for "it'll do" quality goods.
That's a big market though. Shame to throw that away. So they rebrand their goods to an unknown brand name (and even change the name frequently) and sell them at a much lower, but not zero, profit margin; it's still gross profit. It has an added bonus of squeezing the up rising budget brands' margins to defend their higher end brand.
Bridgestone tyres are current Lassa tyres in the UK, for example *or so I'm told*. A bridgestone might cost you £100 a corner but a Lassa might cost £50. Still the same tyre, possibly a B grade bridgestone at worst.
I wonder if the likes of Fluke or Aiglent brands do similar.
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Agilent/Keysight did. Some of their low end scopes were rebadged Rigol units.
That’s a high recommendation for rigol.
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Anyone fancy reselling these to us poor people in Europe? :D
You can get them from RS, not cheap though!
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/pcb-prototyping/printed-circuit-boards-pcb/breadboards/?sra=p&applied-dimensions=4294967284
Since it looks like youre in the UK, go down to Maplin and pick up a K&H that they usually have on the shelf. Ive got a couple of them and I find them to be not so bad really, certainly a lot cheaper than the 3M units. I also have a couple of individual breadboards that I bought as a bulk lot from Elegoo on Amazon - biggest pieces of sh*t Ive ever come across, do not recommend (they dont grip well/feel very loose and I think sometimes that resulted in intermittent contact, and the alignment of the metal parts is so bad that sometimes it is near on impossible to insert a component lead in to a hole)
Dave has some K&Hs too it would seem, seen them floating around in some of his videos.
One word of caution with the K&H's, some of them dont have power rails down the sides like you might expect, which can make it a bit more painful to work with especially if youre doing a lot of digital stuff and need lots of connections to the power rails for pull ups/downs etc.
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IIRC, the K&H boards are rebranded Wisher.
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K&H are completely different to Wisher.
Edit: I use one of these: http://cpc.farnell.com/wisher/wbu-206-j/bread-board-230x175x31mm-2390/dp/PC01214 (http://cpc.farnell.com/wisher/wbu-206-j/bread-board-230x175x31mm-2390/dp/PC01214)
Much prefer soldering stuff though.
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K&H are completely different to Wisher.
Edit: I use one of these: http://cpc.farnell.com/wisher/wbu-206-j/bread-board-230x175x31mm-2390/dp/PC01214 (http://cpc.farnell.com/wisher/wbu-206-j/bread-board-230x175x31mm-2390/dp/PC01214)
Much prefer soldering stuff though.
Sensible decision: you can then debug your circuit, not your circuit's connections and parasitics. Plus, once it is working, it will stay working :)
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K&H are completely different to Wisher.
Edit: I use one of these: http://cpc.farnell.com/wisher/wbu-206-j/bread-board-230x175x31mm-2390/dp/PC01214 (http://cpc.farnell.com/wisher/wbu-206-j/bread-board-230x175x31mm-2390/dp/PC01214)
Much prefer soldering stuff though.
Sensible decision: you can then debug your circuit, not your circuit's connections and parasitics. Plus, once it is working, it will stay working :)
More fun too.
Well that, and I suspect I'm addicted to the smell of rosin. :o :-DD
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I starting doing prototypes with SMD only about 2 months ago now. I'm not quite there with the fun bit. It's small, cheap and reliable though!
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Wow, that seems like ridiculous pricing. Almost $150 for the Model 318 which is only $30 if bought direct from Assembly Specialist. On the other hand, if you want the 3M name on it it'll be $85. Damn, that 3M logo is sure expensive.
I suspect there's really not much market for high quality breadboards, otherwise it might be worth somebody's time to import some over there.
http://www.assemblyspecialist.com/WebStore/breadboards.html (http://www.assemblyspecialist.com/WebStore/breadboards.html)
Anyone fancy reselling these to us poor people in Europe? :D
You can get them from RS, not cheap though!
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/pcb-prototyping/printed-circuit-boards-pcb/breadboards/?sra=p&applied-dimensions=4294967284 (https://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/pcb-prototyping/printed-circuit-boards-pcb/breadboards/?sra=p&applied-dimensions=4294967284)
...
edit: add link
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Damn, that 3M logo is sure expensive.
AP's direct pricing is in order IMHO, but 3M's markup is just nuts. :palm:
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I received the breadboards and jumpers I ordered from ASP. The breadboards look very good. I will have t get used to not having red/blue buses. I love the jumpers.
I have not had a chance to try them, but the feedback from my cat, who tested the white jumpers, is that the baggies are shreadable and the jumpers spreadable on the floor. No doubt he was satisfied with the quality. :-DD
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I starting doing prototypes with SMD only about 2 months ago now. I'm not quite there with the fun bit. It's small, cheap and reliable though!
... until you bend the board or it warps :(
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Sorry to bump such an old thread but looking around for breadboards and google keeps bringing me to these threads about AS/3M boards
I know that AS don't ship to UK so realistically am I looking at paying £20 to £40 for a semi decent board and £80 for the 3M label ?
Will these Wisher ones already posted do okay ? http://cpc.farnell.com/wisher/wbu-206-j/bread-board-230x175x31mm-2390/dp/PC01214 (http://cpc.farnell.com/wisher/wbu-206-j/bread-board-230x175x31mm-2390/dp/PC01214)
Or should I aim higher ?
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I’ve got exactly that wisher one which I also bought from CPC and a 3M one. Wisher one is as good as the 3M one. Only bought the 3M one because it turned up cheap on eBay (£20).
Worth having a look at Farnell as well. Sometimes they sell them off cheaper than CPC.
Edit: if you buy a wisher one, read the back of the cardboard sheet it comes packed on. Sounds like a marks and spencer advert.
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Worth having a look at Farnell as well. Sometimes they sell them off cheaper than CPC.
Is this the same but a rebrand/badge ? http://uk.farnell.com/multicomp/mcbb3060/bread-board-abs-235mm-x-207mm/dp/2764645?rpsku=rel3:WBU206J&isexcsku=false (http://uk.farnell.com/multicomp/mcbb3060/bread-board-abs-235mm-x-207mm/dp/2764645?rpsku=rel3:WBU206J&isexcsku=false)
It comes up as the only board when I enter the WBU-206+J manufacturer number :-//
Same with the smaller Wisher WBU204-3+J http://uk.farnell.com/multicomp/mcbb1360/bread-board-abs-211mm-x-100mm/dp/2764644?rpsku=rel3:WBU2043J&isexcsku=false (http://uk.farnell.com/multicomp/mcbb1360/bread-board-abs-211mm-x-100mm/dp/2764644?rpsku=rel3:WBU2043J&isexcsku=false)
Not even slightly cheaper but 30% cheaper seems good deal if they're the same
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Those are really cheap nasty ones. I wouldn’t go near them. Definitely not wisher ones. There are a few lookalikes out there but aren’t anywhere near as good.
Digilent branded ones are apparently wisher however (I would verify that elsewhere first) so look for that. RS sell them but are out of stock https://uk.rs-online.com/mobile/p/breadboards/1346441/
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Those are really cheap nasty ones. I wouldn’t go near them. Definitely not wisher ones. There are a few lookalikes out there but aren’t anywhere near as good.
Digilent branded ones are apparently wisher however (I would verify that elsewhere first) so look for that. RS sell them but are out of stock https://uk.rs-online.com/mobile/p/breadboards/1346441/
I knew the price would be too good to be true although the actual wisher ones aren't overly expensive so I'll probably go with them, thanks for the help
It's a shame we can't get the 3M boards without 3M delivered to UK
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Ben Eater recommends these for his 8 bit computer project. There are 14 breadboards involved with the project and he doesn't seem to have any problems.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0040Z4QN8 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0040Z4QN8)
https://eater.net/8bit/ (https://eater.net/8bit/)
I have decided to play around with his project so I bought the same prototype boards. So far, so good!
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I’ve got some that look surprisingly like those but are crap. YMMV. They came from Tayda however.
I use them to hold pins on while I’m soldering SMD adapters to stick in a nicer breadboard so I don’t melt that one. All is not lost :)
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For jumper wires is it better to just buy a spool of wire and make your own or buy already made ones ?
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Wisher one will come with wires if it’s got +J. You’ll lose them or not have enough pretty quick but don’t worry about that straight up. I use a spool of 22 AWG stuff and cut/strip it to order most of the time. If you buy wire make sure it’s a contrasting colour to your breadboard. I bought a white spool once and learned that the hard way :)
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Solid CAT5/6 work rather well in a good quality breadboard IME (or on pad-per-hole DIY protoboard).
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I use this stuff. Despite the picture it is solid core:
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/hookup-equipment-wire/1214279/
And these strippers:
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/cable-strippers/0243112/
The combination is a joy to work with.
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Thanks for the advice, I've already got some Knipex strippers for stripping the hookup wires
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Even better :-+
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Here's a good review of several breadboards judged on multiple aspects:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKQJhe9n_ug (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKQJhe9n_ug)
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Here's a good review of several breadboards judged on multiple aspects:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKQJhe9n_ug (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKQJhe9n_ug)
Yep I watched this earlier, I noticed as rstofer posted that the guy who built an 8bit computer recommends the same Busboard BB830's https://eater.net/2017/04/ (https://eater.net/2017/04/)
I'm thinking get a nice large wisher one and a couple of the 830's
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I'm thinking get a nice large wisher one and a couple of the 830's
FWIW, CPC carries a few Wisher's, namely the Wisher WBU-202+J (http://cpc.farnell.com/wisher/wbu-206-j/bread-board-230x175x31mm-2390/dp/PC01214?st=wisher) for 24.99GBP.
TME has a much better selection (https://www.tme.eu/en/katalog/universal-pcbs_100110/#id_category=100110&page=1&s_field=niski_prog&s_order=ASC&limit=50&visible_params=2550%2C2%2C1037%2C413%2C11%2C219%2C2198%2C2335%2C329&used_params=2%3A45429%3B2335%3A34056%3B2550%3A82440%3B) and are reasonably priced from what I've seen in the UK/EU.
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FWIW, CPC carries a few Wisher's, namely the Wisher WBU-202+J (http://cpc.farnell.com/wisher/wbu-206-j/bread-board-230x175x31mm-2390/dp/PC01214?st=wisher) for 24.99GBP.
TME has a much better selection (https://www.tme.eu/en/katalog/universal-pcbs_100110/#id_category=100110&page=1&s_field=niski_prog&s_order=ASC&limit=50&visible_params=2550%2C2%2C1037%2C413%2C11%2C219%2C2198%2C2335%2C329&used_params=2%3A45429%3B2335%3A34056%3B2550%3A82440%3B) and are reasonably priced from what I've seen in the UK/EU.
Thanks I'll check them out
Watching one of the EEVblogs I notice Dave uses K&H boards, are they decent to use ?
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Watching one of the EEVblogs I notice Dave uses K&H boards, are they decent to use ?
Yes.
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They were pretty good. Had one years ago.
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They were pretty good. Had one years ago.
As good as the Wishers or slightly worse ?
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I prefer the wishers. The blue plastic thing around the K&H ones can shatter pretty easily when you knock it off the bench. This does happen :). Also wisher contacts seem to last a bit longer.
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I prefer the wishers. The blue plastic thing around the K&H ones can shatter pretty easily when you knock it off the bench. This does happen :). Also wisher contacts seem to last a bit longer.
All that means is that it takes slightly longer until you are spending more time debugging the breadboard than you are investigating your circuit.
"High quality breadboard" is an oxymoron, like "military intelligence". Use manhatten techniques instead; see the last section of https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2020/07/22/prototyping-circuits-easy-cheap-fast-reliable-techniques/
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Yes this is true.
At this point I am working mostly with SMD parts so I spend most of my time either making up simple boards (etch resist pen+ fr4 stock) or getting them made.
I use the 3M board mainly for quick bias network tests or hooking up a programmer to an MCU or something.
I still think they have value for learning though even with the limitations on reliability and lifespan. The better boards are useable. Just don’t expect them to last forever and don’t fight them when they are circling the drain
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Cheers guys, Manhatten process certainly looks interesting, I guess the non BB methods are good to give you lots of practice with soldering
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Manhattan is fast (little planning), permanent if desired, and has high integrity results due to a complete groundplane and low parasitic inductances in the wires.
For simple breadboarding, there's the rats' nest techniques, as used by the real analogue gurus such as Pease and Widlar.
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Manhattan is fast (little planning), permanent if desired, and has high integrity results due to a complete groundplane and low parasitic inductances in the wires.
For simple breadboarding, there's the rats' nest techniques, as used by the real analogue gurus such as Pease and Widlar.
haha rats nest is too messy for my OCD of things being in order
I've ordered some veroboard/stripboard off aliexpress so I'll give the Manhatten a try for sure
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Just remember you can hide it in an enclosure. Doesn't help if you're the sort of person who knows it's there even though you can't see it. Here's some rat's nest I did recently :D
(https://i.imgur.com/1cHjdJv.jpg)
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Doesn't help if you're the sort of person who knows it's there even though you can't see it.
I am unfortunately one of those persons |O
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I use a fair amount of these house brand 480 tie boards from Marlin P Jones in Florida. Normal price is $4.95 or 3.95 if you buy 10, however a few times a year they put them on sale for $2.95. I can find no brand name or markings on them, but i have seen a video by Ben Eater on the construction of the boards he uses. He has a checklist of half a dozen points to look for and these boards pass them all. Worth trying a couple and if you like them, wait for the sale and stock up.
http://www.mpja.com/830-Tie-Point-Solderless-Breadboard-Unmounted/productinfo/24443+TE/ (http://www.mpja.com/830-Tie-Point-Solderless-Breadboard-Unmounted/productinfo/24443+TE/)
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Just to let you know, I ordered two small breadboards from Assembly Specialists (ASP) for $100 based on this post. However, the ASP breadboards turned out to be extremely difficult to insert wires into, and even the jumpers provided with the boards tend to bend if you're not careful. The ASP breadboards won't accept the male pin headers on my breakout boards, which is what I usually work with. In comparison, the old breadboards I have from Radio Shack or surplus stores are much more accommodating. I know new breadboards can be stiff, but these are way beyond.
Are the 3Com boards just as stiff?
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The 3M boards I have are very tight but pin headers are not a problem. For the thin leads on modern through hole parts I pretty much have to use tweezers or needle-nose pliers. I have two of the Radio Shack boards from the 1980s. They were almost certainly relabels of 3M/AP Products. The fit on those is not quite as tight as a newer 3M.
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Just to let you know, I ordered two small breadboards from Assembly Specialists (ASP) for $100 based on this post. However, the ASP breadboards turned out to be extremely difficult to insert wires into, and even the jumpers provided with the boards tend to bend if you're not careful. The ASP breadboards won't accept the male pin headers on my breakout boards, which is what I usually work with. In comparison, the old breadboards I have from Radio Shack or surplus stores are much more accommodating. I know new breadboards can be stiff, but these are way beyond.
Are the 3Com boards just as stiff?
Yeah, it’s normal for them to be very stiff when brand new.
I personally avoid using standard male headers on breadboards simply because they’re at the very upper limit of the allowed wire thickness. But if you choose to use them, just insert a low-pin-count header into the holes you want to use, just to open them up. Only the first insertion is super tight.
As for component leads: I suggest snipping them on the bias so they have a point. Makes a huge difference in ease.
P.S. 3com hasn’t existed for 13 years. You mean 3M. ;)
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I found nice an tight breadboards. Cheap on Amazon.
The problem I have is when you use a square pin header in a BB hole, the whole row seems to open. My usually breadboard to breadboard link of choice are the little steel pins with the rubber grip style. The later always seem to cause issues with poor connections.
The issue is two fold I think. Partly the header pins are forcing open the entire row of metal clamps. Also partly the steel pins are no doubt subject to corrosion/oxidisation and being a pretty hard metal doesn't abrade easily (like copper or gold) so doesn't self clean being inserted/removed.
I just can't keep complicated digital circuits running. Because I had power issues on a set of 2 large breadboards I had begun edging up the system voltage. Now instead of doing what sane people would do and power the breadboard with 5V and use LDOs and capacitors to supply the 3.3V, I ran the PSU on 3.3V. I found I only had 3.1V at the end of the project so I upped the voltage to 3.5V. This is fine, almost everything that takes 3.3V takes 3.5 or even 3.6 right?
Well, it ended up with the PSU running at 3.70V. I found out the hard way, that no, not all things that take 3.3V take 3.7V and when working with bare modules with a 3v3 input, they mean 3v3! They have no regulator or limiter onboard. Lost an Optical I2S module last week and this week through similar impatience and stupidity a 2.4" TFT.
I ordered the PCB for this particular project, but I'd love to not have to go through that again!
Any suggestions? Do I abandon the steel pin jumper leads? Do I use only dupont? Do I just accept things are as they are and make more proto-board interconnects when the breadboard circuits become "more settled"?
On DuPont. I find the females you get one connection. Maybe 2. Then they loosen up and don't make good connections. You can sometimes squeeze them with pliers and get another few goes, but often you just crush them. The males on the other hand, if they don't want to go into the breadboard and you push a little too hard, then buckle, bend in the middle and snap off.
I seen a breadboard a long time ago, demo'ed on YouTube, where the "flutes" where individually cut between the holes, so that each individual hole could open the jaws as far as I needed without forcing open it's neighbours. I can bet 99% of the clone manufacturers just skip that step as it's expensive. They also probably use horrible cast alloys which oxidize and get filthy.
If it worth givng the breadboard and all the jumpers a bath in iso or something?
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Hi,
I've used Radio Shack solderless plug boards and they were the best i had so far. They all get old though after a while.
You can get the bottom off for cleaning and possibly rebending.
For real professional work though i've always used a wood plank and stand offs and terminal strips. For heavy currents you cant use a solderless plugboard (breadboard) anyway.
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The problem I have is when you use a square pin header in a BB hole, the whole row seems to open. My usually breadboard to breadboard link of choice are the little steel pins with the rubber grip style. The later always seem to cause issues with poor connections.
The issue is two fold I think. Partly the header pins are forcing open the entire row of metal clamps. Also partly the steel pins are no doubt subject to corrosion/oxidisation and being a pretty hard metal doesn't abrade easily (like copper or gold) so doesn't self clean being inserted/removed.
...
If it worth givng the breadboard and all the jumpers a bath in iso or something?
As I hinted earlier in this thread, I hate solderless breadboards; people always end up spending more time debugging the breadboard than debugging their circuit. But clearly you have found that out too :)
Fortunately there are better cheaper faster and reliable techniques, a selection of which are shown in https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2020/07/22/prototyping-circuits-easy-cheap-fast-reliable-techniques/ Choose whichever combination of techniques suits you and your project.
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I found nice a tight breadboards. Cheap on Amazon.
Try a 3M/Assembly Specialist, Global Specialties, or other top-quality breadboard.
No cheap breadboard I’ve ever used — and it’s many — has been even remotely as tight as the good ones.
On DuPont. I find the females you get one connection. Maybe 2. Then they loosen up and don't make good connections. You can sometimes squeeze them with pliers and get another few goes, but often you just crush them. The males on the other hand, if they don't want to go into the breadboard and you push a little too hard, then buckle, bend in the middle and snap off.
The standard Chinese “DuPont” contacts are brass, and indeed only get a few mating cycles before they loosen.
For test leads and jumpers you want to reuse over and over, you need better quality. The best in this regard is the Amphenol Mini-PV (PV being short for “perpetual virgin”, according to Amphenol, due to their high mating cycles). They’re rated for about 1000 mating cycles, thanks to a separate phosphor bronze leaf spring inside it. They also cost 10-20x as much per contact, but in the long run it saves money, not to mention nerves.
I haven’t had much trouble with male DuPont pins. They should not give you any trouble even on a new, stiff 3M board. When I’ve had trouble inserting those, it turned out it was a remarkably shitty breadboard whose contacts didn’t have enough of a funnel, so inserting anything was nigh on impossible. If you do manage to bend a male DuPont, remember that it’s brass, so bending it back just a few times will cause it to snap.
Upshot is, the cheap stuff ends up costing you more in the long run, and lots of time and stress.
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Bonjour à tous
Very Fortunately we have 1970s..1990s American made AP, Vero, 3M breadboards and 0.100" perf/ pad per hole boards, sizes to 50 cm. Found at Hamradio fleas, silent keys, silicon valley surplus.
5 or 10 wide interlocking strips are modular and convienent to build a setup.
We have breadboards and prototypes built in 1970s..1990s that still work.
Most Chinese wire, pins, connectors , breadboards and test leads are inférieur material.
Thus we preffer vintage USA products.
Just my experience
Jon
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Fortunately there are better cheaper faster and reliable techniques, a selection of which are shown in https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2020/07/22/prototyping-circuits-easy-cheap-fast-reliable-techniques/ Choose whichever combination of techniques suits you and your project.
Hmm. I've been muddling in my head over breadboard use.
I think they are fine if you are plunking out a few components to get an idea for a circuit using discrete components. Like, for example, I am playing with very basic boost/buck and mosfets (again!), while the solderless BB doesn't afford a very good buck topology and won't even allow most buck ICs to function properly, it still works for learning the basics with the scope. With the scope attached it's very obvious when loose connections get involved.
However, when circuits grow and that buck circuit now becomes a "stable part" of the large circuit, it's time to a) replace it with a module, b) move it to a soldered basis (dead/live bug, protoboard etc.). Things would at least be more reliable having 3 or 4 small sub circuits interconnected on the breadboard.
That brings me to where I am with the projects which are torturing me. When you want to combine half a dozen modules. The modules might be a power supply, an MCU and 3 or 4 interface modules like DAC, ADC what not. Keeping these stable is a nightmare. At the same time the modules can become expensive. For example the optical board I cooked cost me £35. Not going to starve buying a few of those, but they take 3 weeks to deliver and could vanish from stock tomorrow. So, I whatever I choose to do, needs to be undoable and the modules easy to reuse if required.
Jumping over whatever that technique turns out to be, I get to PCB, where I can get 5 boards. I can use the first one with female headers and plug modules in. When I'm happy I can just solder the modules directly into the board. It's just the turn around time and cost printing PCBs every few weeks is irriating.
So, I'm thinking about buying 3mm plyboard. I already have plastic standoffs. I'm going to screw the modules down to the plywood and solder wires point to point between them, directly onto the dupont pin headers. These simple touch contact solders are instantly undoable with a touch with the soldering iron. The pin headers should be reusable, at worst they'll need a quick clean up with the iron. I can even use little bits of protoboard for things like voltage regulators and power distribution boards. I can solder decoupling caps to the power header pins directly etc. It should then remain far more stable and when it comes time to do that PCB 15 minutes should unsolder it, the same modules can go into the PCB, any mini-circuits I made, like a buck or power supply module, convert to PCB discretes.
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Fortunately there are better cheaper faster and reliable techniques, a selection of which are shown in https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2020/07/22/prototyping-circuits-easy-cheap-fast-reliable-techniques/ Choose whichever combination of techniques suits you and your project.
Hmm. I've been muddling in my head over breadboard use.
I think they are fine if you are plunking out a few components to get an idea for a circuit using discrete components. Like, for example, I am playing with very basic boost/buck and mosfets (again!), while the solderless BB doesn't afford a very good buck topology and won't even allow most buck ICs to function properly, it still works for learning the basics with the scope. With the scope attached it's very obvious when loose connections get involved.
However, when circuits grow and that buck circuit now becomes a "stable part" of the large circuit, it's time to a) replace it with a module, b) move it to a soldered basis (dead/live bug, protoboard etc.). Things would at least be more reliable having 3 or 4 small sub circuits interconnected on the breadboard.
That brings me to where I am with the projects which are torturing me. When you want to combine half a dozen modules. The modules might be a power supply, an MCU and 3 or 4 interface modules like DAC, ADC what not. Keeping these stable is a nightmare. At the same time the modules can become expensive. For example the optical board I cooked cost me £35. Not going to starve buying a few of those, but they take 3 weeks to deliver and could vanish from stock tomorrow. So, I whatever I choose to do, needs to be undoable and the modules easy to reuse if required.
Jumping over whatever that technique turns out to be, I get to PCB, where I can get 5 boards. I can use the first one with female headers and plug modules in. When I'm happy I can just solder the modules directly into the board. It's just the turn around time and cost printing PCBs every few weeks is irriating.
So, I'm thinking about buying 3mm plyboard. I already have plastic standoffs. I'm going to screw the modules down to the plywood and solder wires point to point between them, directly onto the dupont pin headers. These simple touch contact solders are instantly undoable with a touch with the soldering iron. The pin headers should be reusable, at worst they'll need a quick clean up with the iron. I can even use little bits of protoboard for things like voltage regulators and power distribution boards. I can solder decoupling caps to the power header pins directly etc. It should then remain far more stable and when it comes time to do that PCB 15 minutes should unsolder it, the same modules can go into the PCB, any mini-circuits I made, like a buck or power supply module, convert to PCB discretes.
Incremental design, implementation and testing is an important - arguably necessary - techinque, and one that demonstrates the problems with solderless PCBs.
Hence I've shown an example in https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2020/07/22/prototyping-circuits-easy-cheap-fast-reliable-techniques/ about 2/3 the way down that page. With that kind of technique you can delay moving to PCBs until it is necessary.
When connecting modules made using any technique, do ensure the ground wiring between modules doesn't introduce problems; make sure you understand the consequences of a wire's 1nH/mm. and why all application notes show and/or stress the importance of ground planes.
Signal integrity with digital circuits is a real issue, whatever the clock frequency/period; FFI understand https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2018/05/08/digital-signal-integrity-and-bandwidth-signals-risetime-is-important-period-is-irrelevant/
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Let me try to actually answer your question.
These:
BusBoard Prototype Systems
Global specialties
3M
Assembly Specialist
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Bonjour à tous
Very Fortunately we have 1970s..1990s American made AP, Vero, 3M breadboards and 0.100" perf/ pad per hole boards, sizes to 50 cm. Found at Hamradio fleas, silent keys, silicon valley surplus.
5 or 10 wide interlocking strips are modular and convienent to build a setup.
We have breadboards and prototypes built in 1970s..1990s that still work.
Most Chinese wire, pins, connectors , breadboards and test leads are inférieur material.
Thus we preffer vintage USA products.
Just my experience
I mean, the Chinese can make good product when they want to. Lots of quality products are made there.
With that said I largely concur with your experience. I’ve been little by little remaking my female DuPont leads (like banana to DuPont, micrograbber to DuPont, DuPont to DuPont, etc) which were originally made with Chinese DuPont contacts, with real Mini-PV from Amphenol. Yeah, each contact costs 10-20x as much as the Chinese one, but it lasts about 300x longer without loosening.
I also have been using more Molex KK, since they fit into single-row headers, and their spring design is more durable, even in cheap clones. (But even more so with phosphor bronze originals and clones.)
What I have had very good luck with is Chinese silicone-insulted wire — at least with the supplier I’ve been using. They carry it in thin sizes the western vendors don’t sell, in more colors. So I’ve been using that to make my jumpers and test leads.
I managed to stock up on 3M/Assembly Specialist breadboards bought direct from Assembly Specialist before they raised their prices, so I should be set for a long time. :)