Author Topic: Why 'Free Energy' Will Never Work  (Read 31490 times)

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Online HighVoltage

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Re: Why 'Free Energy' Will Never Work
« Reply #75 on: December 14, 2014, 02:46:47 pm »
The deeper we go in to the rabbit hole, the more mysterious it will get.

I just read an interesting math book on Eratosthenes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

This guy calculated the diameter of the earth a couple hundred years BC
Quote:
He is best known for being the first person to calculate the circumference of the Earth, which he did by applying a measuring system using stades, or the length of stadia during that time period. His calculation was remarkably accurate. He was also the first to calculate the tilt of the Earth's axis (again with remarkable accuracy). Additionally, he may have accurately calculated the distance from the Earth to the Sun and invented the leap day.He created the first map of the world incorporating parallels and meridians, based on the available geographical knowledge of the era.

Essentially we know so little at this time, of what is really going on.
But we believe, we know so much.
Who knows, what has been invented in the background and it will never be made public, because it has been militarized or something else. We just don't know.
 
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Offline dannyf

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Re: Why 'Free Energy' Will Never Work
« Reply #76 on: December 14, 2014, 02:58:00 pm »
-Essentially we know so little at this time, of what is really going on.
But we believe, we know so much.-

Scary but wise words.

I agree. Unfortunately, it is precisely people who know little that think they know a lot.

That's how we got all those talks on science being settled. The religionization of science.
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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Why 'Free Energy' Will Never Work
« Reply #77 on: December 14, 2014, 03:22:26 pm »
-Essentially we know so little at this time, of what is really going on.
But we believe, we know so much.- ...
I agree. Unfortunately, it is precisely people who know little that think they know a lot.
usually... those people who REALLY made the study or observation know how mysterious and messy it can get, how little we know. but what they already know for certain they tell other people, the layman people. these layman people that think we know alot.

Offline Rick Law

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Re: Why 'Free Energy' Will Never Work
« Reply #78 on: December 14, 2014, 09:46:21 pm »
We know that something can come from nothing.
who said that? its a violation of belief to most people here and there (esp on sensitive and unproven matters). maybe your term is not that accurate. more accurate term in my opinion is.... We know that something can come from "something that is not yet known"
I think we all know what he meant: it's impossible for an ordinary human (what ever resources they have access to) to create something out of nothing, whether it be energy or mass. It's not possible to magic objects or energy out of nothing and if you're trying to bring religion into this then GTFO; don't wreck the thread!

A closed system will always reach an equilibrium and slow to a stop: entropy always increases.

On a very small scale, things may seem to go against the second law of thermodynamics, for very short periods of time but on a larger scale, over a longer period of time, entropy always increases. For example, take a chamber filled with a gas, at a constant temperature and pressure, the molecules will be moving around at random. If you zoom in, it may appear as though it's perpetual motion, since the particles are moving around continuously and aren't slowing down, but when you zoom out, the average speed of the gas is zero so it isn't possible to extract any work from the system.

[RL: I added bold to some text in the reply]

re: "A closed system will always reach an equilibrium and slow to a stop: entropy always increases."
Our understanding today is that beyond the event horizon, stuff inside black hole has no influence in this universe other than gravity.  So, it is attractive to think of "dumping entropy increase" into the black hole.  Is it theoretically sound?  I am not sure enough research has been done yet to say yes or no.

re: "On a very small scale, things may seem to go against the second law of thermodynamics, for very short periods of time but on a larger scale, over a longer period of time, entropy always increases."
Leveraging these "leaks" in the physical laws, and coupled with using black hole as dumping ground is exactly how we can in theory create energy out of nothing.

That it is broken for split-split-split second can be shown in simple math if you accept some basic physics assumptions:  If +Energy occur here, for -Energy to occur elsewhere takes time.  It takes (distance/c) for -E place to "know" a +E occurred.  So for the duration of (distance/c), we are borrowing energy or loaning it out.  Except of course if Entangled Particles can transfer info faster than c, we may no longer have a loan period.  That is why Entangled Particles got into my earlier rely.  It may seem like a side track but it was not.

These law can be broken for a trillionth of a trillionth of a femtoSecond - at least Quantum Mechanics said so and Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle agrees.  So, can we stretch the time out?  Time at Planck's scale is at best ill-defined anyhow.

If "big bang" is right, that "randomly occurring kernel of energy" was expanded beyond collapse during the (two or more) "inflation" phases.  Since big bang can extend the "energy loan" and scale via naturally event, extending artificially is theoretically possible.

That the universe has a zero-sum energy is a hypothesis for convenience - to make our physical laws more congruent.  We don't know that for a fact and we don't even have any supporting evident - just the gut feel that it should be.   "Create a universe to experiment on" is hardly feasible so we may never know.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 09:51:47 pm by Rick Law »
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Why 'Free Energy' Will Never Work
« Reply #79 on: December 15, 2014, 12:25:07 am »
We know very little about the creation of a universe so it isn't an impossibility that we can indeed create a universe.

A man made black hole, particularly a micro black hole, on the other hand, is entirely possible.
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Offline westfw

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Re: Why 'Free Energy' Will Never Work
« Reply #80 on: December 15, 2014, 12:57:23 am »
Quote
Essentially we know so little at this time, of what is really going on.
Of course, this is exactly the sort of quote filtered down from scientists who are talking about subtle details of esoteric phenomena, to lay people with sub-median IQs, that allows "free energy" scams to succeed.  "scientists admit that they don't understand everything, therefore it is reasonable for you to believe that my unusual arrangement of oddly-shaped wire coils might succeed in extracting usable energy from <insert buzzwords  here.>"

No.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Why 'Free Energy' Will Never Work
« Reply #81 on: December 15, 2014, 02:35:28 am »
...and if you're trying to bring religion into this then GTFO; don't wreck the thread!
what do you smell? didnt somebody say this topic is fun? free energy thread becomes larger than LHC or particle physics discussion. yeah sure we have few topnotch physicists/mathematicians around here ;) or do you just listen to stories?

We know that something can come from nothing.  Experiments has shown that.  Particles appears from random kernel of energy can be observed-
and then i repeat... lack of understanding or instrumentation or mathematical prove doesnt necessarily means its "nothing". saying it as "nothing" is what religionism or marketing talking, but from science side of people. if one cant understand the origin of an "energy" or how particle anti-particle form/anihilate, then dont just fill the gap and say its "nothing". because i think we all agree that we/science will continually improve hence making mistakes by blunt conclusion/approximation such as "atom is indivisible". its nothing just because it cant be observed or not in the mathematical equations. scientists and mathematicians will continue to work on this ;) but claiming that "something is from nothing" is enforcing the idea that "god does exist" because ideally "god is from nothing" and there is no hard proof that its "nothing", we just dont know, havent formulated it, or not "given" any slight clue about it. ps: "random" in science is a similar term as "i dont know" in laymans word. ;)

Offline jfiliaul

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Re: Why 'Free Energy' Will Never Work
« Reply #82 on: December 15, 2014, 02:43:29 am »
I guess it depends on what you definition of free is? If you mean a perpetual motion machine you're right but if you mean FREE as in cost, you are wrong i would say... wind turbines harness energy from a source we don't have to pay to make so in that case its free after it pays for the cost of the turbine.... just my 2 cents.... |O
 

Offline Stonent

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Re: Why 'Free Energy' Will Never Work
« Reply #83 on: December 15, 2014, 10:36:18 am »
Even solar is technically a finite resource. Sure, it will take billions of years before the reaction dies out but it will still happen. Maybe we just need to invent our own personal sun that we can stick inside a reactor that keeps bouncing between hydrogen and helium in a fusion reaction.
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Offline Alex30

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Re: Why 'Free Energy' Will Never Work
« Reply #84 on: December 16, 2014, 12:04:07 pm »
I agree. Unfortunately, it is precisely people who know little that think they know a lot.

Only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing - Socrates

Probably the first quotable quote I learned back when I was a kid watching Bill and Ted's Excellent adventure haha
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Why 'Free Energy' Will Never Work
« Reply #85 on: December 16, 2014, 12:15:18 pm »
Quote
Only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing - Socrates

Very profound, and paradoxical too.

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Offline Rick Law

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Re: Why 'Free Energy' Will Never Work
« Reply #86 on: December 18, 2014, 01:56:22 am »
Quote
Only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing - Socrates

Very profound, and paradoxical too.

Hmmm...  mathematical more than paradoxical.

(very small number) divided by (very very very large number) = (a number rounded to zero).

Socrates is more of a mathematician than I thought.

(Chuckle chuckle...)
 

Offline Syntax_Error

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Re: Why 'Free Energy' Will Never Work
« Reply #87 on: December 18, 2014, 02:24:11 am »
Even solar is technically a finite resource. Sure, it will take billions of years before the reaction dies out but it will still happen. Maybe we just need to invent our own personal sun that we can stick inside a reactor that keeps bouncing between hydrogen and helium in a fusion reaction.

Category/Type 2 civilization. Disclaimer: I have no evidence. The following is pure opinion: I believe we will get there someday. It may be difficult to believe now, with all the current issues of our world and civilization, but I think we will get there someday. Many many monumental changes will need to occur before this one happens, but I think we will get there. Someday.
It's perfectly acceptable to not know something in the short term. To continue to not know over the long term is just laziness.
 

Offline eas

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Re: Why 'Free Energy' Will Never Work
« Reply #88 on: December 18, 2014, 06:41:09 am »
Free energy is everywhere, as is perpetual motion.  All you have to do is eliminate the artificial "closed system" requirement.

[...]running rivers will be generated and uselessly dissipated as long as the sun shines[...]
Unless you are a fish, or you fish, or you eat fish, or bears, or...
 


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