Why 'Free Energy' Will Never Work

[German_EE]

We seem to see on a regular basis devices that are supposed to provide 'free energy', these devices use a variety of technologies and have wonderful names but they all have one common attribute, they don't work. You cannot generate energy from nothing, it has to come from somewhere, and this is a rule that cannot be violated.

So, let us look at one example of a 'free energy' device.

Take a DC motor, attach the shaft of the motor to a DC generator, wire the output of the generator to a battery and wire the battery to the motor. The whole thing forms a loop and is the basis for all sorts of 'free energy' systems. So what happens? Your motor will probably start to turn but over a period of time (depending on the size of your battery) the speed will decrease until the battery is discharged and the motor stops again.

Why does the system not run forever?

In one word the answer is losses, but as this is the EEV Blog Forum we need some more detail.

1) The battery supplies energy to the motor. All batteries have internal resistance and this resistance means that some of the battery energy is dissipated as heat and energy is lost heating the surrounding air.

2) The motor turns but, even with good bearings, there is friction, and this friction is turned into heat energy. The windings of the motor have resistance (as do the brushes) and this generates more heat rather than useful movement. Note that the motor is not silent, generating this sound energy also consumes electrical power.

3)  The generator turns but, even with good bearings, there is friction, and this friction is turned into heat energy. The windings of the generator have resistance (as do the brushes) and this produces more heat rather than useful movement. Note that the generator is also not silent, generating this sound energy also consumes electrical power.

4) Finally, the wiring of the system has a small but measurable resistance leading to more useful power being turned into heat.

Fiddle around with this for as long as you like, but as Cmdr Scott used to say, "you cannot change the laws of physics". All systems (including closed loops) have losses, these losses produce wasted heat and energy is therefore lost to the environment. Add a DC-DC converter? losses, why do you think the heatsinks are there? Add permanent magnets? Then you get either no change or losses as you try to oppose a magnetic force somewhere, and there is no such thing as a monopole magnet unless you consider some VERY complex work done about a year ago http://phys.org/news/2014-01-physicists-synthetic-magnetic-monopole-years.html

So, the next time someone appears to have come up with a 'free energy' device look carefully at their design and work out where the losses are, then walk away.

Reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion

[EEVblog]

[KerryW]

Free energy is everywhere, as is perpetual motion.  All you have to do is eliminate the artificial "closed system" requirement.

Solar power, wind and running rivers will be generated and uselessly dissipated as long as the sun shines.  Tidal forces as long as the sun and the mood move around the Earth.    Radio waves, cosmic "rays" and neutrinos constantly bombard us.

Who is to say what other potential energy sources are around us, unseen and untapped?

Of course, the burden of proof is on the inventor (and I'm not holding my breath).  Any such discovery will be obvious once made, and take the world by storm.  Don't show me a glowing LED, show me a car driving from NY to LA.

[Seekonk]

Free Energy will be around as long as the general public gets its understanding of science from the movies.

[German_EE]

I did of course neglect to mention solar, wind and hydro electric power because the main focus of the article was the 'magic box' that is supposed to solve all of our energy needs. However, solar power collection will reduce by a tiny amount the quantity of sunlight falling on the Earth, wind turbines will tap the energy from wind and you only need a pair of eyes to see the effects on a river when it is dammed for hydro-electric power. The energy obtained is therefore not free in the literal sense as it is removed from the source.

However, the Star Trek reference has provoked a number of amusing comments. One board member pointed out in a PM that on a regular basis Cmdr Scott insisted to Capt Kirk that the laws of physics could not be broken, then at the end of the episode Lt Sulu flicked a switch and USS Enterprise zoomed off to the next planet at a speed faster than light.

[zapta]

However, the Star Trek reference has provoked a number of amusing comments. One board member pointed out in a PM that on a regular basis Cmdr Scott insisted to Capt Kirk that the laws of physics could not be broken, then at the end of the episode Lt Sulu flicked a switch and USS Enterprise zoomed off to the next planet at a speed faster than light.

The 'laws' of physics merely represents our current understanding of reality. They get evolve as we deepen and refine this understanding. Nothing is sacred about them.

As for free energy, practically speaking it doesn't need to be free, cheap enough is just as good, just as computation cycles these days.

[jucole]

the main focus of the article was the 'magic box' that is supposed to solve all of our energy needs.

and one of the best 'magic box' devices I've ever read about has to be the amazing 'Moray radiant energy device';  you'll notice I didn't say 'free energy' there ;-)

[Dave Turner]

At first glance one might assume that solar energy is free and in truth it is probably the closest to reality.

Let's face it with the exception of geothermic energy all useable energy on Earth is derived from our Sun. Energy received from outwith our solar system is miniscule in comparison, at least according to current understanding.

Assume that we could deploy enormous efficient solar collectors both on earth and possibly even to the extent of creating a Dyson's sphere; what effect would the absorption of the energy which otherwise would stream into space, have on the spacial locality in the long term? Greenpeace in space!

Just speculating.

[dannyf]

The answer depends on what you mean by -free-. With the right -free-, it is quite possible to have -free energy-.

At a high level, it is possible to have something out of nothing. -white holes-, ling theorized to exist, is an example. Or the creation of our universe.

Again, everything hinges on your definition of -free-.

[Alex30]

Solar farms in orbit using a space tether or beamed energy would provide an enormous amount of energy that could provide for most of civilizations needs... Only it doesn't exist yet.

[zapta]

Solar farms in orbit using a space tether or beamed energy would provide an enormous amount of energy that could provide for most of civilizations needs... Only it doesn't exist yet.

And it's not free.

[coppice]

All the energy we use is free in a similar sense. Its there, you just need to harvest it and make it available in a practical form for consumers. The price we pay is essentially that cost of getting the energy to the consumer in a usable form. Some forms of energy can be harvested essentially forever (e.g. direct solar) and some will run out quickly (e.g. oil). You might say we need to pay heavily for oil rights, but land for a solar collector doesn't come cheap, either. You might say things like oil are heavily taxed, but governments need revenue. A big enough shift from oil to direct solar energy would see heavy taxes placed on direct solar energy. The only fundamental differences between these sources of energy are whether they will run out soon, whether they offer a stable supply just when the energy is needed, and what environmental impact they have. Hydro power probably scores the best across those three categories, but even there we are only just getting to grips with its environmental impact after nearly a century of use.

[coppice]

Solar farms in orbit using a space tether or beamed energy would provide an enormous amount of energy that could provide for most of civilizations needs... Only it doesn't exist yet.

Isn' t the space tether an essential precursor to such a solar farm? How else would it be practical to get enough equipment into orbit? It seems carbon nanotubes might get us into the ballpark of being able to build such a tether, but the figures I have seen still show a gap between material strength and requirements.

People have been proposing the space energy farm idea, for either peaceful or military purposes, since people first started to look at the possibility of space travel. Only the military ones have ever looked plausible, as their needs are so much simpler.

[Alex30]

Solar farms in orbit using a space tether or beamed energy would provide an enormous amount of energy that could provide for most of civilizations needs... Only it doesn't exist yet.

Isn' t the space tether an essential precursor to such a solar farm? How else would it be practical to get enough equipment into orbit? It seems carbon nanotubes might get us into the ballpark of being able to build such a tether, but the figures I have seen still show a gap between material strength and requirements.

People have been proposing the space energy farm idea, for either peaceful or military purposes, since people first started to look at the possibility of space travel. Only the military ones have ever looked plausible, as their needs are so much simpler.

Well its all hypothetical but I would say not necessarily because if beamed energy and a reusable SSTO (Single stage to orbit) vehicle is developed which can deliver medium sized payloads into orbit, putting lots of solar panels in orbit and other maintenance requirements would be rather cheap.

There's a few high efficiency rocket engines in development. One such example is the SABRE engine which should be able to reach near orbital velocity in the upper atmosphere (I think it works like an aerospike) and then change fuel modes to conventional liquid rocket fuel allowing it to get into orbit.

Only problem is it sounds like a good way to get kessler syndrome (eek)

[monksod]

there is no such thing as a monopole magnet

What if...you glue two bar magnets together, end-to-end? wouldn't that give you 2 north poles, or 2 south poles? 

[Zero999]

there is no such thing as a monopole magnet

What if...you glue two bar magnets together, end-to-end? wouldn't that give you 2 north poles, or 2 south poles? 

With a south/north pole in the middle!

[SeanB]

If you can find a monopole you will get a free trip to Stockholm, and a hotel room as well. Kind of like the Higgs, but even rarer.

[Sigmoid]

However, solar power collection will reduce by a tiny amount the quantity of sunlight falling on the Earth

WHAT?!! Srsly... -.-; 

The rays of the sun hit objects on the ground, which absorb and reflect those rays, heating up in the process. All a solar panel does is convert some of the absorbed energy into transmittable electric power.  That power is going to eventually be transmitted and used, in the end all of it ending up as heat - whether we want it or not. (In the same vein, too many sunbathing lizards would freeze the planet?  )

Also, as in recycling trash doesn't reduce the amount of trash generated by society (which is a priori to recycling), solar panels have no effect on the amount of sunlight the Earth gets.

However, the Star Trek reference has provoked a number of amusing comments. One board member pointed out in a PM that on a regular basis Cmdr Scott insisted to Capt Kirk that the laws of physics could not be broken, then at the end of the episode Lt Sulu flicked a switch and USS Enterprise zoomed off to the next planet at a speed faster than light.

Well, the laws of physics cannot be broken, but they can be worked around. Gravity is a law of physics, and people still do build airplanes. There IS serious scientific theory on the possibility of warp drives.

[Seekonk]

It never ends.  I just saw this on another board and it is new to me..... Gravity Generator
As follows:

3 arms made out of rods at 120 degree with each other in a vertical plane(in wind mill they have the blades).
These arms shall be fitted with 3 heavy balls at their ends (calculations needs to be done to derive their weight).
Once put in rotation it starts rotating at its own. (Of course there will be a retardation in motion due to
i) system inertia
ii) frictional loss and
iii) air resistance)
There is a small motor coupled to the shaft of this GRAVITY GENERATOR which is given pulse after each rotation(derived from the generated power). This input power is just sufficient to overcome the 3 types losses mentioned above. The NETT power available is the usable power.

[Mechatrommer]

who says wind, river and solar is free? yes its free god given into the nature (or replace term god with the "nature" and the term nature into "universe" if you prefer that). yes its free because its already there to tap, heck even dinosaur waste is free, its just we like to call it "non renewable free" energy section or class. but once you make the setup to tap it its not free anymore. the damn thing in the river cost billions to construct and many souls to maintain there need wages. from time to time i'm considering the cost of buying solar system for my home, in the end its more economical and free of mind to use the grid from the damn service.

i believe similarly with other untapped/unknown free energy such as magnet or what not. soon when we realize how to tap it, either government will take over and/or boom the price through "economics subject" self-balancing mechanism or the technology/ manufacturing itself will cost many kidneys. energy cannot be created, it only can be transferred by other form of energy. there is no free energy (in absolute reality of human mind and body frame of reference)... you have to work for it. "free" is only a deceptive or perceptive term.

btw, i dont think putting "free energy" thread in begineer section is a good idea, it can be a controversial topic similar to other ancient artifact subjects discussed in general section... people like to describe terms based on there perception/dogma/doctrine/brainwash way.

[c4757p]

btw, i dont think putting "free energy" thread in begineer section is not a good decision, its a controversial topic...

...among nitwits. Otherwise it's an interesting discussion topic at most.

[pickle9000]

Free energy is used by marijuana grow ops all the time. Just bypass the kwh meter and all the power is free.

[tszaboo]

I sometimes charge my phone at work. That pretty much sums up the free energy available on the world.

[Jeroen3]

We cannot produce energy, we can only convert it.

Most solar/coal/oil/gas energy plants convert kinetic energy into electrical energy.
(They all work with steam turnbines)
Some solar plants convert photon energy.
We can also convert heat into electrical energy using peltier elements.
And last but not least, convert chemical energy into electrical energy with batteries.

Free energy suggest you do not lose energy or matter, ignoring Einsteins most important rule.

[dannyf]

ignoring Einsteins most important rule.

as if his rules cannot be ignored.