Author Topic: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?  (Read 15771 times)

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Offline redgearTopic starter

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #75 on: November 25, 2019, 11:04:04 am »
You've done 90% of the work, which is the schematic, netlist, footprints, and component placement. Actually routing that board takes the same amount of time in any package, they are all basically the same productivity at that point with manual routing.

I'm just getting blocked at many points while trying to route. I think it will get better with practice. Also, they are traces that needs to be thicker than the rest and I'm just getting confused.
 

Offline thinkfat

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #76 on: November 25, 2019, 11:36:30 am »
You've done 90% of the work, which is the schematic, netlist, footprints, and component placement. Actually routing that board takes the same amount of time in any package, they are all basically the same productivity at that point with manual routing.

I'm just getting blocked at many points while trying to route. I think it will get better with practice. Also, they are traces that needs to be thicker than the rest and I'm just getting confused.

I always found the ratsnet being the most helpful visual aid while placing components. Every "airwire" crossing another wire is a hint that something isn't quite right yet. You turn and shove components around until the tangle unravels. It's just a skill you develop by doing it over and over. After a while you just "see" paths for tracks while you place the components. Also, building little compartments helps a lot to reduce the complexity. It's like small fish following big fish: every major component has a zoo of smaller stuff following it around - decoupling capacitors, resistors, etc. You group them together, placing them with minimal crossing ratsnet lines of minimal length and then you move the whole group to their final place on the board. After you've done that for all the major functional blocks you connect them with tracks.

Placement is the main work anyway, when you've done that properly, the rest is just "connect the dots".

Regarding track widths and getting confused what is what, that's what "net classes" are for.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2019, 11:39:02 am by thinkfat »
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Offline redgearTopic starter

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #77 on: November 27, 2019, 08:26:03 am »
I always found the ratsnet being the most helpful visual aid while placing components. Every "airwire" crossing another wire is a hint that something isn't quite right yet. You turn and shove components around until the tangle unravels. It's just a skill you develop by doing it over and over. After a while you just "see" paths for tracks while you place the components. Also, building little compartments helps a lot to reduce the complexity. It's like small fish following big fish: every major component has a zoo of smaller stuff following it around - decoupling capacitors, resistors, etc. You group them together, placing them with minimal crossing ratsnet lines of minimal length and then you move the whole group to their final place on the board. After you've done that for all the major functional blocks you connect them with tracks.

Yep, I am not telling it is not useful. But as a beginner looking at ratsnet is scary for me. And how much ever orientations I try I am not able to untangle them.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #78 on: November 27, 2019, 09:12:08 am »
Yep, I am not telling it is not useful. But as a beginner looking at ratsnet is scary for me. And how much ever orientations I try I am not able to untangle them.
Yeah well you did take on something a bit complex first up.

The ratsnest is you placement lifeline first then your eyes as to possible routing solutions.
Something less complex and forcing yourself to do it on a single layer is the way to get your head around it along with a not too stifling PCB size until more experience is gained.

It might seem I ramble on a bit but my posts are not just directed at you but for the wider audience that also follow this stuff.  ;)

Still, do show progress as there's plenty of us here to help if you get really stuck.
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Offline redgearTopic starter

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #79 on: November 27, 2019, 09:26:47 am »
It might seem I ramble on a bit but my posts are not just directed at you but for the wider audience that also follow this stuff.  ;)

Still, do show progress as there's plenty of us here to help if you get really stuck.

Your replies on this thread has been very informational for me. I have been following the advice you(and everyone else on this thread) have given me. Like I said, when I was about to start routing the older layout, I found a better IC and I decided to start from the beginning again. I have few DRC errors on the schematic and I'm trying to correct. I even created a new topic and got some advice from jhpadjustable but still there are a few errors. Once I fix them, I will start with the PCB design.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 09:36:04 am by redgear »
 

Offline redgearTopic starter

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #80 on: November 28, 2019, 10:45:40 am »
Yep, I am not telling it is not useful. But as a beginner looking at ratsnet is scary for me. And how much ever orientations I try I am not able to untangle them.
Yeah well you did take on something a bit complex first up.

The ratsnest is you placement lifeline first then your eyes as to possible routing solutions.
Something less complex and forcing yourself to do it on a single layer is the way to get your head around it along with a not too stifling PCB size until more experience is gained.

It might seem I ramble on a bit but my posts are not just directed at you but for the wider audience that also follow this stuff.  ;)

Still, do show progress as there's plenty of us here to help if you get really stuck.


Started working on the new PCB.

So far...
880340-0
 

Online tautech

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #81 on: November 29, 2019, 09:32:14 am »
Started working on the new PCB.

So far...
(Attachment Link)
Had a look at the new schematic and wondered why you have so many caps on the same rail and their purpose ?  :-//

What's DS1 ? See how many ratsnest traces go to it from the tight side of the IC. Pop that IC on the other layer and it becomes flipped so that bundle of ratsnest traces will be easier to route.
Several of the bipolar/FET traces come from the same side of the IC so they all might benefit from flipping it onto the other layer.

BTW, don't embed the image, just keep it as a thumbnail then we can download it a blow it up larger more easily.  ;)
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Offline redgearTopic starter

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #82 on: November 29, 2019, 09:57:54 am »
Had a look at the new schematic and wondered why you have so many caps on the same rail and their purpose ?  :-//

I designed it based on the reference design on the datasheet. The capacitors are for reducing ripple and EMI. The previous design had an extra elcap which I have not included in this design. I am thinking if I should add it for extra stability.
Quote
What's DS1 ? See how many ratsnest traces go to it from the tight side of the IC. Pop that IC on the other layer and it becomes flipped so that bundle of ratsnest traces will be easier to route.
It is a 7 segment LED Display. Ok  :-+

Quote
Several of the bipolar/FET traces come from the same side of the IC so they all might benefit from flipping it onto the other layer.
Ok, will flip the FETs to the other side of the board.

Quote
BTW, don't embed the image, just keep it as a thumbnail then we can download it a blow it up larger more easily.  ;)
Noted.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #83 on: November 29, 2019, 10:06:40 am »
Had a look at the new schematic and wondered why you have so many caps on the same rail and their purpose ?  :-//

I designed it based on the reference design on the datasheet. The capacitors are for reducing ripple and EMI. The previous design had an extra elcap which I have not included in this design. I am thinking if I should add it for extra stability.
8x 22uF caps, that's nuts !  :-//
Ceramic, right ?
Sub them out for a couple of 100uF SMD tantalums.
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Offline redgearTopic starter

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #84 on: November 29, 2019, 10:10:58 am »
8x 22uF caps, that's nuts !  :-//
Ceramic, right ?
Yeah, ceramic. This is my first project so haven't tried anything out of the datasheet.
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Sub them out for a couple of 100uF SMD tantalums.
Ok, so 100uF on both SW and VOUT networks,right?
 

Offline jhpadjustable

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #85 on: November 29, 2019, 10:23:35 am »
8x 22uF caps, that's nuts !  :-//
Ceramic, right ?
Sub them out for a couple of 100uF SMD tantalums.
"Nuts" is not an engineering justification. It's far from uncommon to see stacked ceramics in SMPS power supply applications. Personally, I would like to see some analysis of that change before counseling the addition of detonators into what are already not far from bombs.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2019, 10:27:47 am by jhpadjustable »
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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #86 on: November 29, 2019, 10:24:53 am »
Ok, so 100uF on both SW and VOUT networks,right?
Nope, a Net called BAT has 4x when 1 would do.

BTW, see how Net Bat has a name but not a Net label like many others. Gnd for example....BTW they should always point down.

When you use hidden connections like VCC/VDD for a IC be sure to assign them a Net label then the program does the rest and creates a ratsnest link whereas if you don't things become disconnected.
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Offline redgearTopic starter

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #87 on: November 29, 2019, 10:33:26 am »
BTW, see how Net Bat has a name but not a Net label like many others. Gnd for example....BTW they should always point down.
I used the net label for it just like I did for others. By 'Point Down' do you meant the label should be at the bottom of the wire?
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When you use hidden connections like VCC/VDD for a IC be sure to assign them a Net label then the program does the rest and creates a ratsnest link whereas if you don't things become disconnected.
Yeah, I did that.

Thanks
 

Offline redgearTopic starter

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #88 on: December 02, 2019, 06:10:24 am »
@tautech

Update:

I have managed to place the all components within my board boundaries and have made it less messy than before.
Need sugggestions...

I am attaching the png with this reply.
 

Offline thinkfat

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #89 on: December 02, 2019, 08:47:28 am »
With C1/C2 right there, it's going to be tricky to route the differential traces to J6. If you turn the controller 45° clockwise, it might become easier.

Also, what are all those net-ties doing there? They seem to serve no actual purpose. What nets to you need to tie together?

Rotate Q1 90° anticlockwise to shorten some traces.

Place C3 directly adjacent to the pads it's connecting to, move the whole group a bit to the right to make space.

What's the purpose of Q3/Q4/Q6, VBUS switching? It looks like they'd better be place on the left side of the controller, and the controller moved towards the right to make space. This would also make routing to J6 easier. Or, if they actually do VBUS switching, they functionally belong the connectors, so move them over.

Move C5 closer to the controller pads it connects to, reduces waste of board area.

Giving hints on component placement is really hard if you don't provide schematics...
EDIT: I found a PDF with schematics attached to a prior post, mango.pdf, is that the latest one?

Update: Oh yeah, as others noted, DS1 must go away there. Flip it 180° and move it to the bottom of the board.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 09:59:36 am by thinkfat »
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Online tautech

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #90 on: December 02, 2019, 08:49:41 am »

Thanks, that makes it much easier.

My eyes are drawn to the components with the most ratsnest connections so I would endeavor to optimize their placement first.
Passives with a Gnd connection are much easier as you really only have to find a routing path for one connection as a Gnd is generally always close by. Any you can easily rotate them to make for simpler routing.
In the same way I look for crossed ratsnest connections like to D27 where you might have 2 choices, rotate either D27 or the IC 180 degrees.
The big green pad bottom right has a trace that goes clean across the PCB  whereas if it was shifted up near C16 there are better paths for it's other connections yet vias and other side routing might still be needed.
Push, pull, jiggle and rotate one of two things at a time and pathways will open and become simpler, shorter and better.
R2, 3 and 4 need rearranging. NT4 can be flipped. C5 can be vertical....and so on.
Focus on the big stuff with lots of connections going to one place, especially if from adjacent pins all in a row as it's easy to simple route them rather than make things tight needing to find room for vias.

It might help to go into single layer mode rather than have to look at the complete ratsnest and things should become clearer.

Looking forward to your next iteration.  :)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 09:23:48 am by tautech »
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Offline Rerouter

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #91 on: December 02, 2019, 09:14:17 am »
If you would be willing to zip the project files, I'd be happy to see what I can make of it,

Also your DS1 component if going to be a real pain there as you cannot route through it
 
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Offline redgearTopic starter

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #92 on: December 02, 2019, 10:18:59 am »
With C1/C2 right there, it's going to be tricky to route the differential traces to J6. If you turn the controller 45° clockwise, it might become easier.
Rotate Q1 90° anticlockwise to shorten some traces.
Place C3 directly adjacent to the pads it's connecting to, move the whole group a bit to the right to make space.
Move C5 closer to the controller pads it connects to, reduces waste of board area.
Done.
Quote
Also, what are all those net-ties doing there? They seem to serve no actual purpose. What nets to you need to tie together?
The net-ties are for connecting the mosfets drains to the IC. I am attaching the schematic so you can have a look.

Quote
What's the purpose of Q3/Q4/Q6, VBUS switching? It looks like they'd better be place on the left side of the controller, and the controller moved towards the right to make space. This would also make routing to J6 easier. Or, if they actually do VBUS switching, they functionally belong the connectors, so move them over.
Yes, they are responsible for current sensing and act as a switch to the connectors.
Quote
Giving hints on component placement is really hard if you don't provide schematics...
Sorry! I'm attaching it with this reply.
Quote
Update: Oh yeah, as others noted, DS1 must go away there. Flip it 180° and move it to the bottom of the board.
It is a 7 segment LED display and that is where I want to place it mechanically. :(

My eyes are drawn to the components with the most ratsnest connections so I would endeavor to optimize their placement first.
Passives with a Gnd connection are much easier as you really only have to find a routing path for one connection as a Gnd is generally always close by. Any you can easily rotate them to make for simpler routing.
In the same way I look for crossed ratsnest connections like to D27 where you might have 2 choices, rotate either D27 or the IC 180 degrees.
Do you mean the DS1? I took thinkfat's suggestion to rotate the IC 45deg, I think its better than before now.
Quote

The big green pad bottom right has a trace that goes clean across the PCB  whereas if it was shifted up near C16 there are better paths for it's other connections yet vias and other side routing might still be needed.
Push, pull, jiggle and rotate one of two things at a time and pathways will open and become simpler, shorter and better.
R2, 3 and 4 need rearranging. NT4 can be flipped. C5 can be vertical....and so on.
Done.
Quote
Focus on the big stuff with lots of connections going to one place, especially if from adjacent pins all in a row as it's easy to simple route them rather than make things tight needing to find room for vias.
Ok.  :-+ I have been sketching the components on paper and arranging them, i feel easier that way.
Quote
It might help to go into single layer mode rather than have to look at the complete ratsnest and things should become clearer.
Idk if Kicad has a single layer mode, but I can make the either Back or Front planes invisible if that is what you mean.

If you would be willing to zip the project files, I'd be happy to see what I can make of it,

Also your DS1 component if going to be a real pain there as you cannot route through it
Thanks. Do you mind if I send you a private message?

@thinkfat and @tautech I'm attaching the next iteration of the PCB. Please have a look.
 

Offline thinkfat

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #93 on: December 02, 2019, 10:59:55 am »
Quote
Also, what are all those net-ties doing there? They seem to serve no actual purpose. What nets to you need to tie together?
The net-ties are for connecting the mosfets drains to the IC. I am attaching the schematic so you can have a look.
OK, so they're not serving a real purpose. Drop them, it will at least make the ratsnest connections more clear.

Quote
Giving hints on component placement is really hard if you don't provide schematics...
Sorry! I'm attaching it with this reply.
Seems you forgot.

Quote
Update: Oh yeah, as others noted, DS1 must go away there. Flip it 180° and move it to the bottom of the board.
It is a 7 segment LED display and that is where I want to place it mechanically. :(
bummer that... OK, well, you'll have to suck it up, then.

Quote
It might help to go into single layer mode rather than have to look at the complete ratsnest and things should become clearer.
Idk if Kicad has a single layer mode, but I can make the either Back or Front planes invisible if that is what you mean.
Press 'H' and see if the result helps you.

@thinkfat and @tautech I'm attaching the next iteration of the PCB. Please have a look.

Are you hellbound on the placement of those connectors? The routing would become much easier if J4 and J5/J6 swapped places.
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Offline jhpadjustable

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #94 on: December 02, 2019, 12:07:52 pm »
OK, so they're not serving a real purpose. Drop them, it will at least make the ratsnest connections more clear.
That was me. I suggested redgear add them so that the current/voltage sensing at the MOSFETs would be distinctly routable. Is that overkill?
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Offline thinkfat

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #95 on: December 02, 2019, 04:03:38 pm »
OK, so they're not serving a real purpose. Drop them, it will at least make the ratsnest connections more clear.
That was me. I suggested redgear add them so that the current/voltage sensing at the MOSFETs would be distinctly routable. Is that overkill?
Ah, OK! So you wanted them as attachment points for sense wires? I actually never thought of that.
I'd probably not do it like that. IMHO it creates more constraints on routing and placement for the sake of having different net names.
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Online tautech

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #96 on: December 02, 2019, 04:44:37 pm »


Provide a list of locked components.
Move any designators so it's clear which component they belong to.
Place some designators within the footprints of large components for the meanwhile.
C17,18 appears to have the same net for both pads.  :-//
If convenient on dumb components swap the nets to the other pad. (switches etc)

Rotate IC 180o taking small passives with the rotate. (R2,3,4,7,8,9, C4,5)

That's enough for now.
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Offline jhpadjustable

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #97 on: December 02, 2019, 05:06:01 pm »
Ah, OK! So you wanted them as attachment points for sense wires? I actually never thought of that.
I'd gotten the impression from the datasheet (p3, attached in OP's other thread) that's what the VOUTA etc. pins were for. I'm not 100% sure what the chip maker was thinking, though. Maybe the net ties i recommended were intended to be actual resistors but not drawn as such on the typical application circuit (p23)?  :-//
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Offline thinkfat

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #98 on: December 02, 2019, 09:10:25 pm »
Ah, OK! So you wanted them as attachment points for sense wires? I actually never thought of that.
I'd gotten the impression from the datasheet (p3, attached in OP's other thread) that's what the VOUTA etc. pins were for. I'm not 100% sure what the chip maker was thinking, though. Maybe the net ties i recommended were intended to be actual resistors but not drawn as such on the typical application circuit (p23)?  :-//

The VOUTA VBUSA etc. pins are indeed sensing pins, to switch off the port when no load is connected. They're using the Rds_on of the gating mosfet as a current sense resistor. That's creative ;-)
VOUTA pins are the same net as VOUTP. However, they should be connected close to the mostfets, and the mosfets should be placed close to their respective receptacles, just like you would do with a current sense resistor. You want to exclude the burden voltage of the traces from the measurement, though it won't matter a lot here, the Rds_on of the mosfets is whatever it is anyway. But we're still talking milli-ohms and a piece of trace will matter.

But, as a first project, this is going to be a struggle. It's not just about placing the components and connecting them, there's a boost converter, differential signals, analog sensing, that's a lot of constraints to take into account. Don't forget the thermal design, this converter needs to dump the waste heat somewhere...
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 09:50:59 pm by thinkfat »
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Offline redgearTopic starter

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Re: Why am not able to get a grasp of PCB designing?
« Reply #99 on: December 03, 2019, 08:00:07 am »
Seems you forgot.
Please find it with this reply. Sorry.

Quote
Press 'H' and see if the result helps you.
No change.

Quote
Are you hellbound on the placement of those connectors? The routing would become much easier if J4 and J5/J6 swapped places.

Nope. Except DS1 and SW1 I am free to move anything anywhere.

The VOUTA VBUSA etc. pins are indeed sensing pins, to switch off the port when no load is connected. They're using the Rds_on of the gating mosfet as a current sense resistor. That's creative ;-)
VOUTA pins are the same net as VOUTP. However, they should be connected close to the mostfets, and the mosfets should be placed close to their respective receptacles, just like you would do with a current sense resistor. You want to exclude the burden voltage of the traces from the measurement, though it won't matter a lot here, the Rds_on of the mosfets is whatever it is anyway. But we're still talking milli-ohms and a piece of trace will matter.

But, as a first project, this is going to be a struggle. It's not just about placing the components and connecting them, there's a boost converter, differential signals, analog sensing, that's a lot of constraints to take into account. Don't forget the thermal design, this converter needs to dump the waste heat somewhere...
Should I ditch the Net-ties? I initially had thermal vias on the IC but removed it as became difficult to place components. Should I uses thermal vias?

Provide a list of locked components.
Except for DS1 and SW1 in the new image(swapped J5 and J6 to the other side following @thinkfat's suggestion) below, I am free to move anything anywhere.
Quote
Move any designators so it's clear which component they belong to.
Place some designators within the footprints of large components for the meanwhile.
Hope they are better now.

Quote
C17,18 appears to have the same net for both pads.  :-//
No, there are two USBs on  both sides of the board. They placed exactly opposite. So, in the image it looks like they have same nets on both pads.
 


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