Author Topic: Wires/leads in electronic terminology  (Read 4202 times)

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Offline conductivityTopic starter

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Re: Wires/leads in electronic terminology
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2022, 06:13:19 pm »
Most "Litz" wire you get these days are various forms of twisted wire and not the real woven Litz

"Type 8"  I believe is the real Litz wire.  Or was it type 7 or 9 ?
There are different types. The gauge is kept low enough to prevent skin effect.

The electrical wavelength of 20 kHz is about 14.4 km. Transmission line effects are not a thing with hi-fi cables. I'm not having any litz wire for tonearms or any other transmission line that is for audio frequencies. Any turntable that can't handle about 34 AWG silicone tonearm cables is trash.

I was finally able to determine that cables are only electronic components if they are a part of an electronic circuit. They are called electrical components if they are a part of an electrical circuit. A component is a part. Electronic and electrical are adjectives that describe the use. 20/20 hindsight so to speak. The cables are used as interconnects between components that do alter electrical signals, but audio cables don't alter the signal. So they are not like the other components.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2022, 10:39:02 pm by conductivity »
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Offline TimFox

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Re: Wires/leads in electronic terminology
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2022, 06:32:03 pm »
Litz wire is useful below, say 2 MHz, for applications where the AC resistance is important.
In my experience, the capacitance between strands within a given Litz wire results in little use above, say, 5 MHz.
I had some interesting uses for 1200-strand AWG 50 Litz wire (unfortunately, not the woven kind) in low-MHz applications.
One practical use for larger Litz wire is in winding transformers for high-power high-frequency switching power supplies.
As I stated above, since Litz wire is self-insulated with very thin enamel, it may be preferable for tone-arm applications:  silicone insulation is flexible, but much thicker than the enamel.
The dictionary definition of "component"--"Noun: a constituent part : ingredient"  There is no mention of restricting its use to strong effects.
 
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Offline conductivityTopic starter

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Re: Wires/leads in electronic terminology
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2022, 08:15:15 pm »
The dictionary definition of "component"--"Noun: a constituent part : ingredient"  There is no mention of restricting its use to strong effects.
Thanks. The analysis only works when the words are broken down to individual definitions. I understand this now and have updated my previous post.
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Offline conductivityTopic starter

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Re: Wires/leads in electronic terminology
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2022, 06:06:24 pm »
Litz wire is useful below, say 2 MHz, for applications where the AC resistance is important.

As I stated above, since Litz wire is self-insulated with very thin enamel, it may be preferable for tone-arm applications:  silicone insulation is flexible, but much thicker than the enamel.
Can you explain more about why you write litz is important for AC resistance?

The tonearm wires are color coded according to the audio channels, but the enamel isn't. Litz wire is also twisted together, which mean it would be worse than about 34 AWG copper wire that is used for tonearms, each individually insulated with silicone rubber. There are some "wire wrap" silicone rubber cables.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2022, 06:09:16 pm by conductivity »
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Offline TimFox

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Re: Wires/leads in electronic terminology
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2022, 06:40:15 pm »
Litz wire is useful below, say 2 MHz, for applications where the AC resistance is important.

As I stated above, since Litz wire is self-insulated with very thin enamel, it may be preferable for tone-arm applications:  silicone insulation is flexible, but much thicker than the enamel.
Can you explain more about why you write litz is important for AC resistance?

The tonearm wires are color coded according to the audio channels, but the enamel isn't. Litz wire is also twisted together, which mean it would be worse than about 34 AWG copper wire that is used for tonearms, each individually insulated with silicone rubber. There are some "wire wrap" silicone rubber cables.

As I wrote, Litz wire is often used for applications where the high-frequency resistance (which is increased by skin effect at high frequencies) is important.  Mostly, that is for inductors and transformers, such as 455 kHz IF transformers.
If I were to use Litz wire for a tonearm application, I would use four pieces of Litz wire (or cable, if you will) of an appropriate (small diameter) size, terminated at each end in a suitable lug or clip, and color-code them with a drop of paint on the metal connector.  Since each Litz wire is insulated along its length by the enamel, it is not necessary to add insulation there.

My reference for Litz wire is the classic F E Terman "Radio Engineers' Handbook", McGraw-Hill 1943,  pp 74 ff for discussion of coil losses, and p 37 for the AC resistance of the wire itself.
(On the topic of coil construction, the 1943 edition is better than some of the later editions.)

 
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Offline Benta

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Re: Wires/leads in electronic terminology
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2022, 07:30:44 pm »
Litz wire is also twisted together, which mean it would be worse than about 34 AWG copper wire that is used for tonearms, each individually insulated with silicone rubber.
No. The Litz wire I mentioned for tone arms is loosely braided and extremely supple.
Colour coding using paint dots or coloured shrink tubing on the lugs works well.
 

Offline wizard69

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Re: Wires/leads in electronic terminology
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2022, 03:53:53 am »
Area carrying electricity are electrical components.  More so because the wires are rather exposed you need to be aware of safety issues. So you need to make sure the wires don’t fail due to sizing issues.  No granted most amps don’t push enough current  but high power amps use to be common in audiophile circles.  So always. consider safety from the electrical stand point even if 1000 watt amps are no longer a thing. 

Beyond all of that I’ve seen more issues with connections impacting performance than anything else.   If your connections are not tight and right the wire doesn’t matter. 
 
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Offline boB

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Re: Wires/leads in electronic terminology
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2022, 07:37:59 am »
Just for reference, here is a list of types of Litz wire


https://www.newenglandwire.com/product/litz-wire-types-and-constructions/
K7IQ
 
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Offline conductivityTopic starter

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Re: Wires/leads in electronic terminology
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2022, 09:24:41 am »
Any pair of wires forms a transmission line, but uncontrolled construction results in a crappy transmission line with ill-defined characteristic impedance, etc.
That being said, for the typical lengths of cabling required in audio installations, the lumped parameters (especially resistance and capacitance per unit length) are far more important than transmission line effects such as reflections.
I don't think that any pair of wires forms a transmission line anymore. A pair of wires must exhibit transmission line effects, in order to be a transmission line. See for example this source:
« Last Edit: August 30, 2022, 05:11:27 pm by conductivity »
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Offline Vovk_Z

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Re: Wires/leads in electronic terminology
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2022, 10:24:36 am »
Shortly -- you are right and wired does not add distortion to audio.
It depends. If we won't take into account thermal-electric effects (TCR of a copper wire) then yes, it doesn't add. But in a real life with a acoustic systems currents make wires heat a bit, so we can definitely measure a much larger THD at acoustic system terminals then it was at amplifier output. This effect can be easily observed at low audio frequencies.
Wires made from any ferromagnetic material or ferromagnetic terminals distort too. This effect can be found possibly at the whole audio range.

So, in general, I don't agree that we should not take wires into account.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2022, 10:28:33 am by Vovk_Z »
 


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