Author Topic: How to charge a 46F capacitor to a p.d of 15kV with out destroying power supply.  (Read 4430 times)

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Offline drussell

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Ah, yes...   300pF ≠ 46F, only off by what, about 12 orders of magnitude.   ::)

That sounds much more plausible...

(Still enough to be seriously dangerous, though...  so be very careful if you play with this!!)
 

Offline KE5FX

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Eh, it's enough to hurt, but I wouldn't call it dangerous to most reasonably-healthy subjects.  300 pF is probably about what you get from the aquadag in a CRT.

I have a ~500 kV van de Graaff machine with a 50 pF top sphere.  That hurts quite a bit more, noting that it's the V term that gets squared in the stored-energy equation, not the C.
 

Offline dbctronic

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I used to play with old TV sets, in the 60s. The aquadag of a good sized color picture tube, at 20 kV, can kill, at least send you flying into a wall. Make sure your device has a safe (think long plastic handle) shorting bar to discharge the cap before poking busy hands around it. Regular switches won't hold off 15 kV. Also, a neon bulb with leads on well insulated handles will help verify discharge.

How had you planned to measure cap voltage?
 

Offline KE5FX

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If you die from a CRT discharge, you were probably going to kick the bucket pretty soon anyway, given that the voltage and energy available isn't that much higher than a really bad carpet shock, in the 100-500 mJ range.

The real risk is that you'll drop the CRT, or otherwise damage yourself with reflex action.
 
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Offline Berni

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Awww now im disappointed, half way down the thread i kinda wanted to see what a 5GJ capacitor bank looks like.

Seeing the OP is so unfamiliar with electronics to not notice that 46F is a humorously massive capacitance at such a voltage id say i would recommend to stay away from actual high voltage power supplies, one wrong move and you can genuinely win a one way ticket to the cemetery. Big HV power supplies can actually be more dangerous than working with explosives.

So yeah i would recommend using an electrostatic machine (Like a van de graaff) to charge it up. For a capacitor of that size they can still provide enough current to charge it up reasonably fast. The energy storage in that capacitor is also low enough that you can't really get hurt from it.

But think twice before scaling up such a capacitor by a factor of 10x or more, at that point it can start getting pretty dangerous.
 
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Online Zero999

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I did a very quick calculation to work out how big a 5GJ capacitor would be. Assuming 1J/cm3, based on my rough measurements of a 150µF 400V electrolytic capacitor, the volume would be 5Gcm3, so if it's a square block, it would be 3√(5×109) = 1710cm, 17.1m or 52' 1 1⁄2", so about the size of a large house. I think a person wouldn't survive if they were standing right next to it and the terminals were shorted. There would be a huge explosion, with intense UV and probably even X-ray radiation.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2021, 03:59:21 pm by Zero999 »
 
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Offline amyk

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I was expecting supercapacitors, a common size of those is 3000F@2.7V or around 10kJ each, and they are closer to 10J/cm^3. That's still enormous.
 

Offline Berni

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17m cube of capacitor does sound rather terrifying indeed.

Yes supercapacitors can store an impressively large amount of energy, but the low voltage makes them a lot less intimidating, more to the level of large high discharge rate rated batteries. The low voltage doesn't allow you to let loose all of that energy in a milisecond.

However, when you have 10kJ at thousands of volts this is the result:


Your hand would do something similar if you happened to be unfortunate to touch it. Now if you scaled this up to 5 GJ.... well that is 500000x more violent... yikes.
 

Offline drussell

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Eh, it's enough to hurt, but I wouldn't call it dangerous to most reasonably-healthy subjects.  300 pF is probably about what you get from the aquadag in a CRT.

That depends on the size of the CRT, etc. obviously, but I figure once you get past the level of about 100 pF and up past the 10-12 kV range, you're crossing the line into danger territory. 

It's not likely that you'd kill yourself electrically with the < 1J energy unless you're really, really unlucky, but you quickly get into the territory of being able to injure yourself from the jolt once you get past the typical old B&W tube level (say about 100 pF at 12-15 kV max for those old tubes) and into the larger-tube color TV range with more capacitance and higher voltages.  You quickly pass from the annoying zap you get from a large static discharge into the "so I woke up smoldering in the corner against the wall" zone.   :)

I built a ridiculously high power version of "The Big TC" tesla coil from the July 1964 issue of Popular Electronics back in my highscool days, using three of the big window-glass capacitors instead of the recommended one, or the insanity-level two capacitors as listed in the article, as well as two high voltage transformers in series driving the primary spark gap.  I didn't die.  None of my friends there playing with it died.  I never even zapped myself with it as I already had a healthy respect for HV, especially something that can throw an arc 18+ inches at 300+ kV.  The EM radiation from that beast is strong enough that it erased the autodial memory contents from a GE 2-line desk telephone located 30+ feet away, sent 1980s-era electronics into hissy-fit mode, confused microprocessors from the other side of the basement, etc., but I didn't ever zap myself.  You really don't want to zap yourself with those levels, even though you probably won't die.  It is going to seriously hurt, though.   :scared:

My worst zap ever was actually a static discharge.  We were stacking up those padded gym floor mats that velcro together one day in one of the basement gyms at my high school.  The entire floor of the gym had been covered with them for some wrestling thing or something.  As we dragged them across the floor and stacked them, they built up crazy high static charges, which was kinda fun, people got zapped a bit, ha ha, hardy har har, etc.  It started to get a bit sketchy though with one of the big stacks of mats.  You could FEEL the static from farther and farther away as that particular stack grew and none of the static had been discharged from that stack somehow.  All the girls' hair were sticking out at it, and we were literally just throwing the folded mats onto the top of the pile from a distance since nobody wanted to go near that stack anymore...   ;)  I was standing about 20 feet away, laughing at the situation when I made the unfortunate decision to point at it and say "somebody's gonna get zapped by that pile, you can FEEL the stati........" when suddenly there is this SNAP as a freakin' lightning bolt jumped from the stack of mats to my awaiting, pointing finger....  Dear god did that hurt.  Oh, wow did that hurt.  I literally fell down. 

People were laughing and asking me if I was dead because at least something like 10 other people were looking directly at me pointing at the thing, taunting the pile at the time and SAW the giant spark jump.  DAMN, did that ever hurt.  I couldn't move my arm for several minutes, it was just seering pain...  My arm even still hurt the next day.  I was actually starting to think I had permanently damaged something but it did finally go away.  I'm fine, but like I said, I have a healthy respect for high voltage, regardless of the actual number of joules involved.   ;D

To the OP...  Please, just do be careful.  :)
 

Offline drussell

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These really are fun....


Mine has two transformers in series and three capacitors in parallel, and yes the capacitors really do glow blue around the edges.  The whole thing looks like it is radioactive or something when it is powered up.  :)

It is sitting in my basement, knocked down into partially un-assembled form.  I don't think it's even been powered up in about 25 years.  I now even have a single, even bigger, more ridiculous high voltage neon sign transformer to try with it that I acquired many years ago but have never got around to trying out.    One of these days I'll re-assemble it and fire it up.  :)  Out in the middle of nowhere, away from any electronics, etc. of course!  I wonder what kind of carnage it would cause to the circuitry in a modern cell phone anywhere in the vicinity?  :scared:

Haha, I should probably bring it out here to the lake to play with it where I have half an acre to space things out a bit, instead of potentially blowing up all the neighbors' electronics trying to fire it up in the city.  :)

Perhaps a youtube video is in order.   ;)

Edit: Fix typos, add link to Popular Electronics - July 1964 issue
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 05:16:06 pm by drussell »
 

Offline drussell

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So yeah i would recommend using an electrostatic machine (Like a van de graaff) to charge it up. For a capacitor of that size they can still provide enough current to charge it up reasonably fast. The energy storage in that capacitor is also low enough that you can't really get hurt from it.

At 0.2ma and with the variable voltage, the OP's HV supply is probably reasonably "safe" (in a relative sense) and my worry about them charging up capacitors with a Van de Graff generator is that if the breakdown voltage of the cap is relatively high, they might actually end up with an even more dangerous charge on the actual cap. 

Being careful and thinking ahead is key here, regardless.

Quote
But think twice before scaling up such a capacitor by a factor of 10x or more, at that point it can start getting pretty dangerous.

Indeed.

At these levels things can go from fun to sketchy to downright scary very quickly and easily.  A grounding rod on a long insulated stick is a must.

Stay safe!
 

Offline David Hess

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The common solution is to use an inverter to drive a 100s to 1000s of volts into a capacitive voltage multiplier with either primary side current limiting, or secondary side by monitoring the current through the capacitor at the ground point.
 

Offline Terry Bites

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Post a picture of the bad boy. If your figures are right, then fully charged it will have the same stored energy as 2379 kilos of TNT. 2.4Kilotons. Really?! You may destroy a small town, sod the power supply!

CV=IT so at 15Kv and a constant current of 1 amp it would take a week to charge. And at 0.2mA, 110 years, good luck. Put your Mum on, I need a word with her.

 :o
 

Offline HB9EVI

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really a pity that it's not 46F at 15kV; the TO would be a fair candidate for the Darwin Award
 

Offline BlackICE

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Interesting question. I tried something similar although with a smaller capacitor. I learned a lot about reverse diode leakage current ahd capacitor leakage. Not easy task. I was charging  something like a 50 nanofarads. I triggering ignition coil through some high voltage diodes in series to charge the capacitor. I can only get it up to about 5 KV. Whereas without charging capacitors I can easily get 15 to 20000 volts. The diodes were leaking current faster than the ignition coil could charge the capacitor. I gave up the experiment because I was trying to make this battery powered and there was no way I can do that with a reasonably sized battery. Leakage of the diodes just wasted too much power.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 02:01:21 am by BlackICE »
 

Offline drussell

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Post a picture of the bad boy. If your figures are right, then fully charged it will have the same stored energy as 2379 kilos of TNT. 2.4Kilotons. Really?! You may destroy a small town, sod the power supply!

CV=IT so at 15Kv and a constant current of 1 amp it would take a week to charge. And at 0.2mA, 110 years, good luck. Put your Mum on, I need a word with her.

Like the OP, I think you might also want to check for unit errors there...   ::)

1000 Kg of TNT is approximately 4.2 GJ, and even if the OP's capacitor were 10 GJ and therefore approximately equivalent to 2379 Kg of TNT, that is still only approximately 2.4 tons, not 2.4 kilotons TNT equivalent, nor is it 2.4 x thousand tons mass or whatever unitslip you made...

A "kiloton (of TNT)" is 4.184 terajoules (4.184×1012 J).
 

Offline drussell

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really a pity that it's not 46F at 15kV; the TO would be a fair candidate for the Darwin Award

Even 46 µF would be ghastly enough, let alone a farad!   :scared:

While the originally stated capacitor was obviously absurdly large, It's a good thing that the OP is only talking about 300 pF or so, which is not too worrying.  Even the 3 x 3000 pF capacitors on my Tesla Coil are quite terrifying enough for me!
 

Offline David Hess

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really a pity that it's not 46F at 15kV; the TO would be a fair candidate for the Darwin Award

That is beyond the level used in nuclear simulations which rely on explosively pumped flux compression, and those capacitor banks often exploded.  I have seen one inch aluminum bus bars with holes punched through them from those failures.

 

Online Zero999

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Post a picture of the bad boy. If your figures are right, then fully charged it will have the same stored energy as 2379 kilos of TNT. 2.4Kilotons. Really?! You may destroy a small town, sod the power supply!

CV=IT so at 15Kv and a constant current of 1 amp it would take a week to charge. And at 0.2mA, 110 years, good luck. Put your Mum on, I need a word with her.

Like the OP, I think you might also want to check for unit errors there...   ::)

1000 Kg of TNT is approximately 4.2 GJ, and even if the OP's capacitor were 10 GJ and therefore approximately equivalent to 2379 Kg of TNT, that is still only approximately 2.4 tons, not 2.4 kilotons TNT equivalent, nor is it 2.4 x thousand tons mass or whatever unitslip you made...

A "kiloton (of TNT)" is 4.184 terajoules (4.184×1012 J).
A 5GJ 15kV capacitor rapidly discharging would still produce one hell of a bang, with lots of ionising radiation. I wouldn't want to be anywhere near it going off.
 


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