Author Topic: Work from home as PCB designer?  (Read 7975 times)

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Offline hammy

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Re: Work from home as PCB designer?
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2018, 09:59:52 pm »
I was hoping for a simple answer lyke "that's a bad ideea, don't do that" or "it's a good ideea, here is a good place to start, see this lynk / google this out".

@shoppy:

There are several free pdf design guides out there, you can use for studies. A search engine and these keywords should help to find these files:
"Optimum Design Handbook"
"Right The First Time"
"PCB Design Tutorial"
"Toradex - Layout Design Guide"
"PCB and DFM" from Seed Studions

The first level is to learn everything about "normal" pcb design. "Normal" pcb design means: breakout boards, small circuits with just a voltage regulator and some components, maybe a small microcontroller (PIC, Atmel). PCBs with no more complexity like an arduino shield.
After mastering this level, after some time, you can start with these keywords: High Speed Design, EMC , EMI and HDI.

Working from home, designing PCBs for companies, requires usually a deeper knowledge. A part of this required knowledge is nowhere written down. You can only learn this stuff from another experienced pcb designer. Usually inside a company, sometimes you can learn from a retired designer who is happy to share his knowledge. And through experience.
You also need some knowledge around the design itself: DFM, Layer StackUp, Gerber, BOM, IPC standards ... a lot of stuff!

If you work full time on this, you should be able to design quite good PCBs after two or three months. To master complex boards you may need between a half or a full year. During this you have to get used to your selected EDA software.
The EDA software you choose should be the same used in the industrie you want to work for. Normally this software is quite expensive.

Maybe you are talented and you can get the knack of it faster, it is still a lot of work and a lot to learn. If you are a self-taught person, it is possible. The learning speed also depends on how much money you can invest in front, it is maybe wise to take one step after another. You could design some PCBs for other guys in your local makerspace and get some experience. This way you also can build up some reputation, very important for your later work.

There are online marketplaces you can look for pcb design projects: guru.com and upwork.com

Commercial training is also a possibility to learn special knowledge. And there are also certification courses you can attend. A lot of money is needed for these trainings and courses.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the "Fedevel Academy". Robert offers online courses for PCB Design. These are excellent courses! I highly recommendend them.

HTH! Have fun!
Cheers
hammy
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 09:16:58 am by hammy »
 
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Work from home as PCB designer?
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2018, 10:35:58 pm »
On my most recent project, I spent a single day designing the circuit and creating the schematic. Then I spent 5 days laying out the PCB - which is vastly more sophisticated than connecting the parts. It is a mix of high power, low voltage analog, and high-speed digital. The level of detail required for success is mind-numbing.

In our modern world, most PCB layouts are way harder than connect the dots. It is a critical part of the engineering. As others have said, experience is key and you cannot rush experience. You cannot teach experience.
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Offline james_s

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Re: Work from home as PCB designer?
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2018, 03:42:00 am »
I've done boards that I laid out in less than an hour, I've spent tens of hours on others, it really depends. Sometimes the complexity of the schematic has little relation to how time consuming the board layout portion is.
 

Offline janekm

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Re: Work from home as PCB designer?
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2018, 03:48:31 am »
BTW several of the Chinese PCB factories are starting to offer PCB layout service (my suspicion is it's a way to use the CAM operator's time between jobs). I haven't used one affiliated with a PCB factory but I did use an independent Chinese layout bureau once when I didn't have enough time to do finish it myself, they actually did a really good and clean job for a ridiculously low fee (perhaps too low... when I asked them to do more work later they said they were too busy  :-DD).

Anyway tl/dr, between autorouters and "layout factories" I wouldn't bet my income on just layout.
 

Online Alex Eisenhut

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Re: Work from home as PCB designer?
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2018, 03:53:48 pm »
between autorouters and "layout factories" I wouldn't bet my income on just layout.

I've made money fixing the "cheaper" alternative for other people.

The old adage of "there's never money to do it right, but there's always time to do it twice" applies here.
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Work from home as PCB designer?
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2018, 05:50:02 pm »

The old adage of "there's never money to do it right, but there's always time to do it twice" applies here.

Yes. That.

Modern PCB layout needs an engineer familiar with the circuit to oversee regularly and the layout person needs to have a reasonable understanding of the engineering principles at play. Poorly considered layouts can break even a robust schematic design.

I wonder how these services are executed practically. If I send over a schematic and they layout a dumb PCB - do I still pay? How much will they tolerate my demands to fix stuff and improve things before the price quadruples?

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Offline free_electron

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Re: Work from home as PCB designer?
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2018, 05:57:43 pm »
I can see it being automated within a decade or so.
i'm getting a bowl of popcorn. this will get interesting. especially since exactly THAT has been said the last 40 years ... I'm wondering when that 10 years span exactly starts ....


Quote
Autorouters are getting more and more intelligent. You can fan-out a BGA with a click in newer versions of Altium.

That is NOT autorouting. That is just fan-out. Fan-out is an easy problem to tackle. Even then ... in lots of cases it doesn't work. Try placing and routing all the decoupling caps on let's say a 688 pin BGA processor ( not that big of a beast these days ... ) and then click that fan-out button and see where you end up. Plenty of pins unreachable...
Back to the 'hooman' to make pathways for the 'clickety thing' to complet the fan out... no 'hooman', no solution...

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Auto routers can route a board.
Autorouters are nothing more than a bunch of algorithms. It take a 'hooman' in the drivers seat , setting up all the criteria , selecting the algorithms , in which order to launch them , and to clean up the initial placement and preroutes ( like power , decoupling , series and parallel termination , local power switchers and regulators etc ... ) before you can launch the router.

Quote
Length tuning and other optimization is not that difficult to do.
  :palm: obviously you have never done a 'serious' board like a graphics card , computer motherboard, or even something smaller like let's say a DDR4 memory stick ... Cramming all that stuff in the available space is a nightmare. you assume it is easy because you are thinking in terms of 'unlimited' space. Wait till they tell you : you have the size of a 2 postage stamps. cram it in ...

Quote
Component placement can be automated.
Really sherlock ? You find me a placement tool that can optimally place all the parts around a switching regulator. Bulk and output caps , coil , and power pathways. Let's just start there. PLace the parts and properly route them with the proper widths. Collapse all current loops and optimize for density. Wake me when you found such a tool. Then we'll tackle something slightly more complex.

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Digital simulation is a solved problem

Quote the Late Widlar. Digital ? any idiot can count to one ...
It is so easy to say : it's digital. one and zero. except on the board these things are voltages , that switch , that become waves and fields that interact with the routing and all the 'analog cruft' on the board. Good luck finding that 'one' in all the noise around the trace that needs to carry those electrons. Ever tried to properly run USB3 , Sata , or other 'common' buses these days ? you cant do that on a single layer with 8 mil traces ... and no the computers can;t figure it out by them selves either. It takes a 'hooman' to figure out what layer stack will be used , calculated the required widths and clearances per layer and feed all that information in to the router. and then the computer can place a trace of proper width and length between point a and b. There is not a single PCB layout tool where you can simply feed it the layer thicknesses and the required impedances (through the schematic) and it will do the calculations for you. Needs 'hooman'. And if the layer stack needs adapting for whatever reason ( manufacturing,  materials shortage, other busses with other requirements on same board ) guess who gets to do all the 'fun work again' : the trained descendant-of-ape ...
A a matter of fact : coming up with a layer stack itself is a very complex issue. you need thick copper for all the massive currents modern cpu's eat , and at the same time you want thin copper to be able to route all the high speed stuff...


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high end solutions are capable of providing useful feedback.

Ah , the good old 'let's run it. look at it  ,tweak it some more and re-run it.. approach. Typical manager (aka poo-flinging baboon type) speak.
How many run cycles will be needed before it works ? 10 ? 20 ? 100 ? 1000 ? Sure the computer is fast. But then the 'hooman' needs to check the end rsult of the run , tweak the setup. That is where most time is lost. If you approach it without know-how and rely on this mechanism you end up with total time ( computer + hooman ) orders of magnitude longer than an experienced 'hooman'.

Quote
So it is not unconceivable to set up a machine learning algorithm to learn placement and routing.

Quick , someone throw oodles of money at this and get very rich .. or the laughing stock of the industry ...


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You would still need the engineer though. To set up the board size, connectors, schematic, footprints, general guides to steer the AI.
First sensible thing you said so far... And this is where most of the time is already spent in the first place.

One of the complex boards i did was going to attempt the 'specctra' autorouter. Had a hired specialist in the field to do the runs. Everything was set up: worked with the GPU maker to do the initial power distribution and other stuff. Everything was ready to go. Only the memories and gigabit lanes between the GPU's were going to be tackled by Specctra. All rules were loaded. Everything else was placed and routed.

First run : aborted after 30 minutes. Not enough routing channels. Specctra could not complete because it could not find enough space to throw down all the tracks.
So the hoomans (two) spend 2 days following the advice of the expert and shuffle via's on a grid so that there would be plenty of horizontal and vertical pathways.
Second run : still no enough pathways. Congestion in area's around memories. Can we use different pinout ?
Hooman : are you effing insane ? I can't change the memory pinout. The chip is like that . Standard Samsung part. GPU vendor uses same on their boards. They already tuned their GPU pinout for easy layout to the memories.
So we studied the congestion map , moved decoupling , moved via's created more lanes in the congested area's.
third run. now congestion in other area's.

15 or 16 runs with every time 2 to 3 days to move stuff around ( sometimes by 1 or 2 mils , converting a via here and there to a laser via to shave another mil or 2 so there was room for one more trace )
Spent 2 months playing this tag game. 2 layout engineers and another expert driving Specctra. It finally completed. The layout looked like a plate of spaghetti, projectile vomited into a pcb. Sure the traces all met impedance , length and diff length criteria, but half busses plowed straight underneath the switching inductors, and so many via's were shot that the ground plane was swiss cheese. Yes there was coupled copper underneath the traces, but everywhere else it was snot. A power analysis showed the copper was so shredded it couldn't even handle the return currents for the power of the GPU... we had to add 2 more planes just for that.
So 2 more power planes and 2 more routing layers later , bringing the board to a 16 layer now, we Specctra again. Marginal improvement but it completed this time.

As a side project we had 2 other engineers do the routing by hand (only the specctra portion). They finished in 4 days , length tuning and all. And got away with a 12 layer board.

We talked to the GPU maker about this. They looked at us and laughed.. Could have told you that....
Their layout engineers did graphics boards on 8 layers in 2 weeks. By hand. They had experience doing that stuff for years.
We did it on 12 layers in 4 weeks ( we had 4 gpu's interconnected with a bunch of other stuff , double complexity ). With less experience in such demanding interconnects.

The autorouter took 3 people during 2 months pushing and shoving a 80% routed board to make enough room for the router to 'vomit' its traces everywhere, without even understanding that it can't route a PCI-x underneath the magnetics of a switcher !

SPECCTRA : Stupid Program, Expert in Creating Crappy Traces and Routing Aborts.

We didn't even bother to produce that board ... the hand routed one worked first time right.
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Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: Work from home as PCB designer?
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2018, 07:19:10 pm »
I can see it being automated within a decade or so.
i'm getting a bowl of popcorn. this will get interesting. especially since exactly THAT has been said the last 40 years ... I'm wondering when that 10 years span exactly starts ....
We dont need to agree on this. A lot can happen in 10 years. First capacitive touchscreen smartphones came out 10 years ago, now there is 1 billion sold every year.

Quote
Length tuning and other optimization is not that difficult to do.
  :palm: obviously you have never done a 'serious' board like a graphics card , computer motherboard, or even something smaller like let's say a DDR4 memory stick ... Cramming all that stuff in the available space is a nightmare. you assume it is easy because you are thinking in terms of 'unlimited' space. Wait till they tell you : you have the size of a 2 postage stamps. cram it in ...
No shit, I also haven't designed millimeter wave radars, or nuclear submarine control panels. I guess most of us don't do that. The amount of length tuning is enough for the other 95% of jobs. Besides, with the HBM, all those 256bit+ memory interfaces could go away in the future. Or just look around a bit, look at for example the PS4 PCB. They sold 75 million of it, and the PCB is basically infinite size compared to the components on it.

And there are other type of engineering problems, which are hard.

Really sherlock ? You find me a placement tool that can optimally place all the parts around a switching regulator. Bulk and output caps , coil , and power pathways. Let's just start there. PLace the parts and properly route them with the proper widths. Collapse all current loops and optimize for density. Wake me when you found such a tool. Then we'll tackle something slightly more complex.
A typical buck converter with 12-60V input and few amps output can be placed and routed probably in an hour, provided you have the space.
But really, why would it be difficult to specify the current loops and define to make this as small as possible?

Quote
high end solutions are capable of providing useful feedback.

Ah , the good old 'let's run it. look at it  ,tweak it some more and re-run it.. approach. Typical manager (aka poo-flinging baboon type) speak.
How many run cycles will be needed before it works ? 10 ? 20 ? 100 ? 1000 ? Sure the computer is fast. But then the 'hooman' needs to check the end rsult of the run , tweak the setup. That is where most time is lost. If you approach it without know-how and rely on this mechanism you end up with total time ( computer + hooman ) orders of magnitude longer than an experienced 'hooman'.

Quote
So it is not unconceivable to set up a machine learning algorithm to learn placement and routing.

Quick , someone throw oodles of money at this and get very rich .. or the laughing stock of the industry ...

That is how machine learning works. Time is irrelevant, also the number of iterations.  If it takes a machine a year, and a small supercomputer to learn the basics of routing, would that matter? 

Quote
Digital simulation is a solved problem

Quote the Late Widlar. Digital ? any idiot can count to one ...
We both know, that modern simulators will produce feedback on reflections, voltage drops, power plane analysis, GND bouncing and almost every relevant aspect of a digital design. Its not just the 1-0-1 that is simulated.

All you are saying, is that programmers are bad at their job, because they cannot set proper rules and proper priorities for routing.
I'm quite sure you know the difference between a deep learning algorithm and a "bunch of script thrown together by hoomans".
 

Offline hammy

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Re: Work from home as PCB designer?
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2018, 09:13:16 pm »
That is how machine learning works. Time is irrelevant, also the number of iterations.  If it takes a machine a year, and a small supercomputer to learn the basics of routing, would that matter? 

I'm quite sure this is the reason for all these "store your circuit and design in our cloud"-Software. They can train their AI against these files, until it learned all basics and is able to improve itself.  :-//
 
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Offline AndyC_772

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Re: Work from home as PCB designer?
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2018, 10:35:19 pm »
We dont need to agree on this. A lot can happen in 10 years. First capacitive touchscreen smartphones came out 10 years ago, now there is 1 billion sold every year.

This is a ridiculously easy debate to settle. Just present even one example of a non-trivial PCB that's been placed and routed well by an AI.

It need not be something as complex as a PC motherboard to prove the point; something along the lines of a piece of consumer A/V equipment would do. Anything with a few different functional blocks: power, some analogue circuits, a microcontroller, that kind of thing. The sort of PCB that even a half way capable layout engineer would do without having to think too hard.

I'd be impressed by any algorithm that works out for itself that there are right ways and wrong ways to lay out a simple SMPS without being explicitly told. Or one that can work out that a design has an isolation barrier which needs a sane physical layout to keep all the hazardous voltages in one area of the board. Double points if it can work out that of course you keep the microphone inputs away from the mains supply, or that the SPI interface needs to be simulated with IBIS models but the keypad itself probably doesn't.
 
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: Work from home as PCB designer?
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2018, 11:27:46 pm »
http://www.icd.com.au/articles/AI_PCBD_May2016.pdf
Google X
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/ad48/d28bb04c196036f743c89f5e519ff7b74924.pdf
Fujisu
https://semiengineering.com/machine-learning-meets-ic-design/
Synopsys

Sure not one shows a product designed by AI.

I'd be impressed by any algorithm that works out for itself that there are right ways and wrong ways to lay out a simple SMPS without being explicitly told. Or one that can work out that a design has an isolation barrier which needs a sane physical layout to keep all the hazardous voltages in one area of the board. Double points if it can work out that of course you keep the microphone inputs away from the mains supply, or that the SPI interface needs to be simulated with IBIS models but the keypad itself probably doesn't.
You are explicitly told how to lay out an SMPS. They told you that the current loops should be small, and the isolation barieres between these nodes should be this much, according to IPC recommendation. So why should an AI work with less info than an engineer?
It would be the case of asking the AI to draw a flower, without telling it what a flower is.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Work from home as PCB designer?
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2018, 12:12:38 am »
I just spent a few days laying out an SMPS. There were so many judgment calls that were settled by weighing a variety of issues that are not part of a spec. The end result needs to accommodate a variety of mechanical restrictions, thermal issues need to be matched with an existing design, test points needs to be placed in a way that would make it easy to test.

Density is critical, performance is critical, etc....my guess is that I would like to have some automation tools to help in certain areas but the rules of this design are just too much to even explain to a co-worker - much less an algorithm.
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Offline cdev

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Re: Work from home as PCB designer?
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2018, 04:09:24 am »
How much more would you pay for a power supply designed with the utmost care by a human being, with a signed calibration certificate, rather than optimized by a program?

I just spent a few days laying out an SMPS. There were so many judgment calls that were settled by weighing a variety of issues that are not part of a spec. The end result needs to accommodate a variety of mechanical restrictions, thermal issues need to be matched with an existing design, test points needs to be placed in a way that would make it easy to test.

Density is critical, performance is critical, etc....my guess is that I would like to have some automation tools to help in certain areas but the rules of this design are just too much to even explain to a co-worker - much less an algorithm.
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Work from home as PCB designer?
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2018, 04:21:57 am »
In the end, I only care about the design meeting the needs. When the needs are very difficult to define, it just makes it less likely to be algorithmically practical.

I would pay the exact same amount of money regardless of how it happened.

Short and misplld from my mobile......

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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Work from home as PCB designer?
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2018, 11:21:59 am »
Comparing primitive AI to a competent designer seems to be a strawman.

99% of circuits don't need that care, or can be refined through review, or iteration.

The average board design seems to be an MCU, some buttons and LEDs, sensors, maybe some interface hardware, maybe some power management, and that's about it.  Very simple, nothing that needs human attention.  Many that I have seen, look that way, though they probably were done by humans.

Comparing AI to the average human is a much more economically relevant comparison, the one that matters.

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Offline TiN

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Re: Work from home as PCB designer?
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2018, 12:04:15 pm »
Quote
i'm getting a bowl of popcorn.
I got a big one.

By the time you specify and rules and settings for autorouter thingy, you'd be done with job already by just using "hooman" experience. Better computer tools make job easier, but it's not meaning it will do it FOR you :) There is reason why CAD means computer-AIDED-design :D

Say automatic algorithms getting better? Sure. As do speeds on common hardware gets faster. 16GHz lanes on PCIe Gen4 and 10GHz on existing TBT/USB lanes have much more in analog domain, than many expect from "digital design" crowd.

Take this as just 5c from person, designed some latest-gen PCIe graphics cards/motherboards :D.

Quote
http://www.icd.com.au/articles/AI_PCBD_May2016.pdf
Google X
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/ad48/d28bb04c196036f743c89f5e519ff7b74924.pdf
Fujisu
https://semiengineering.com/machine-learning-meets-ic-design/
Synopsys

Sure not one shows a product designed by AI.
There is none shown here  :-//
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 12:06:14 pm by TiN »
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Offline shoppyTopic starter

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Re: Work from home as PCB designer?
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2018, 02:23:08 pm »
@ hammy, Thank you!
 


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