EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: ivan747 on December 02, 2013, 11:24:14 pm
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It was much more sentimental that I thought it would be watching how all stations were switched off. I wonder how synchronized it all was. Maybe some ham has a capture of the TV spectrum before the shutdown.
Australian Analog TV Switch Off (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q_S0Fk3dyM#ws)
Looking at the blank picture seems scary for me. I don't even think they are broadcasting digital with actual antennas. Even if we have modern TVs, it's either 1990's analog or renting a digital set-top box from a cable company. Connecting the coax they provide you to the TV does nothing as the signal is encrypted. I would really prefer if they provided me with a coax I can hook up to my TV directly and use the TV's menu system instead of having a set top box with a 100% analog output.
Set top boxes confuse the heck out of everyone.
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It looked like a good beginning for end-of-the world movie. Communications shutting down and everything, just add couple of zombies onto the streets and you're all set! ;D
Thanks for recording that historical moment, it was interesting.
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That was an interesting thing to watch. I thought they would just switch to a screen with text for a minute then shut the signal off.
PS: Analog TV will be switched off in 2018 here in Brazil.
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Great historical video!
My post count now - I'm a 555 timer! :clap:
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Brazil.
Off topic, but I was in Manaus in 2005, such a great experience! :-+
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Great video!
Here in Croatia we ended analog TV broadcasting 3 years ago. Not that I missing snowy picture and interferences... :D
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I liked the animation at the end.
I didn't see our analogue-switch-off, but there were some videos of it on YouTube. Looks like they just flipped the switch in the middle of regular programming. There are also some YouTube videos of some people actually flipping the big power switches.
Just wondering, does anyone know how old the actual transmission equipment is? For example, if the station had been broadcasting for many years, would they replace/upgrade the equipment every so often?
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It looked like a good beginning for end-of-the world movie. Communications shutting down and everything, just add couple of zombies onto the streets...
Already done!
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSfi3mtYFLPACDGhACErUyIf59TcTGU1ZKPAksAXl23ngYlTyOxkA)
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There are also some YouTube videos of some people actually flipping the big power switches.
I found an interesting one here (http://youtu.be/Wb4qPNTnS7o).
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The transmitters will probably stay in service for the digital services, as they still need a few kW at the transmitter antenna. Now that they no longer transmit analog they will have to put the power up on the digital side to get the same coverage areas as the old signal had. Funny how this will not save power at all, the digital boxes run pretty hot so now instead of having a transmitter using 100kW you now have a half million receivers running all the time using 10W or so each. Just now the cost is for the consumers bill.
Can't say I will miss TV a lot though. Might even plug it in for the switch off.
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Also, digital TV quality depends a lot. For example, in the summerhouse I used to get a snowy analog picture. Now I get pretty much no digital picture (stopped frames, blocks etc) in addition to having to bring a receiver, not just the TV. It also does not help that my country chose MPEG4 instead of MPEG2 format for the terrestrial TV as MPEG4 is more sensitive to data loss.
As for the receiver power - a DVB-C (cable) digital receiver I have is just as hot when in standby mode as it is in "on" mode.
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I'm with you on that, a digital signal with data loss is absolutely horrible. Unwatchable. Analog signals can still be watched when snowy.
Analog broadcast television, IMHO, really did get a lot of things right. I do miss it.
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It looked like a good beginning for end-of-the world movie. Communications shutting down and everything, just add couple of zombies onto the streets and you're all set! ;D
Thanks for recording that historical moment, it was interesting.
The end of the World did happen in Australia, see: "On the Beach (1959)". Australia died last.
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At least you got a nice message and animation Dave. Ours was switched off a couple of years ago, and there was no on-air announcement at all - just there one minute and gone the next. I was still using the faithful old 34cm portable that I had grown up with then, and I think it took me about six months to get around to finding a converter. (As you may have guessed, TV is not much of a priority for me these days!)
To be honest, I don't really see a huge need for going digital - while the analogue signal is somewhat wasteful of bandwidth, all of the extra spectrum space will just be sold off to commercial interests anyway.
Analog broadcast television, IMHO, really did get a lot of things right. I do miss it.
Yes, and there is quite a lot more to it than most people think. I have had a reasonably good understanding of TV for a while, but tended to think of things like sync signals as more digital/pulse waveforms. However I recently read a book from back in the sixties, explaining television for non-technical people. (Judging by the book, non-technical people must have been a lot smarter then than they are now!). It explained all the analogue pulse-shaping circuitry for processing the sync, and how the transmission standard was specially designed to overcome the limitations of the receiver circuitry. There are quite a few subtleties to the system that are not immediately evident. (Hands up, how many people really understand equalising pulses?)
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The transmitters will probably stay in service for the digital services, as they still need a few kW at the transmitter antenna.
Nop, if I see it right, Australia moved from PAL to DVB-T. There nothing fits. Power transmitters, control transmitters, test systems, monitors, signal even antennas, etc. all has to go. If Australia is similar to other parts of the world they should have plenty of hight-power transmitter equipment on the surplus market, and a lot of obscure analog signal monitoring and test equipment, too.
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I'm with you on that, a digital signal with data loss is absolutely horrible. Unwatchable. Analog signals can still be watched when snowy.
Yes, that's big problem. We have problem with the TV reception in the coastal regions of my country. TV multiplexes from Italy, which is across the Adriatic sea (~200km) does not follow frequency plan and transmit on "our" frequencies. Problem rises exponentially during summer, because of very good signal propagation across the sea in that conditions, and because they increase transmitted power to better serve Italian tourists on our coast... :P
That often results in no reception at all, or blocky and crashing picture |O
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They switched of analogue here last year but I had to switch to digital (satellite) 4 years ago. They introduced digital transmissions and turned down the power on analogue, We had a new aerial fitted for digital including a mast top amp but the signal was still too weak for digital or analogue (either blocks, freeze frames or snow) after the big switch off they supposedly increased transmission power on digital but it is still far too weak here to be able to watch, its worse than you tube on dial up. The only solution was to get a satellite dish.
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To be honest, I don't really see a huge need for going digital - while the analogue signal is somewhat wasteful of bandwidth, all of the extra spectrum space will just be sold off to commercial interests anyway.
Agree, telecommunication companies are gonna be on this newly freed band like flies on honey probably... It would be interesting to see if there are already plans for re-using these frequencies. Anyone ?
It looked like a good beginning for end-of-the world movie. Communications shutting down and everything, just add couple of zombies onto the streets and you're all set! ;D
Thanks for recording that historical moment, it was interesting.
Precisely. From 4:00 and on for about 10-15 seconds, I was expecting to see the well from the ring to suddenly appear on screen ... Spooky statics ....
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The transmitters will probably stay in service for the digital services, as they still need a few kW at the transmitter antenna.
Nop, if I see it right, Australia moved from PAL to DVB-T. There nothing fits. Power transmitters, control transmitters, test systems, monitors, signal even antennas, etc. all has to go. If Australia is similar to other parts of the world they should have plenty of hight-power transmitter equipment on the surplus market, and a lot of obscure analog signal monitoring and test equipment, too.
Actually, there is more in common with DVB-T transmitters and old analogue transmitters than you might think. The first generation of DVB-T transmitters used in Australian capital cities was based on a modified analogue solid-state transmitter. The power amplifiers are operated as class AB instead of C, and the exciter/modulator is different, but then everything after that is pretty much the same.
I have a before and after screenshot of the spectrum, and a screenshot of SBS-7 turning on... will post tomorrow.
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You can get reception problems from a too strong signal that appears indistinguishable from a too weak signal.
Digital is way better than Analogue. No ghosts, interference from aircraft and a wider choice of crap to watch. Or not watch.
In theory. In practice signal quality might be good at the right distance, but what it does when you finally do get interference is much worse. An analog signal is tolerable even with ghosting.A digital signal might have the potential to do as well, but no digital receivers handle signal corruption with grace.
Of course, the ability to transmit more channels is an advantage, but really, that's what cable (and the Internet!) are for.
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Tragically (for me) here is some trivia about that final transmission.
The black and white footage was from the archives of Channel 7 Sydney.
It's probably from the late 60s. In that period, TV did not run 24hours. In Sydney most channels stopped about 11pm.
The footage was the closing sequence for Channel 7.
It is a singer named Tommy Leonetti, fairly we'll known around the time ( I think he was American, but had settled in Australia). The song was called "My City of Sydney"
I guess this was preferable to the government channel (Channel 2). For the nightly closing sequence they played the national anthem, which at the time was "God Save The Queen". Australia had not yet untied the apron strings from the UK.
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We already had two analog switch offs, the first one was the terrestrial TV (replaced by DVB-T) several years ago. And the last one last year was the analog satellite TV (replaced by DVB-S and S2). There were also plans to replace FM radio with DAB+ but that's seems to be postponed for the moment.
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It looked like a good beginning for end-of-the world movie. Communications shutting down and everything, just add couple of zombies onto the streets and you're all set! ;D
Thanks for recording that historical moment, it was interesting.
The end of the World did happen in Australia, see: "On the Beach (1959)". Australia died last.
also offtopic but : The Quiet Earth (1985) [url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089869/]http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089869/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089869/)[/url]
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It would be nice if their was actually anything on TV (analogue or otherwise) worth watching to be turned off in the first place.
:-+
Family of 4, we don't have cable, over the air, satellite etc. Occasionally watch a netflix movie, but otherwise spend our time outside or building something.
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I'm with you on that, a digital signal with data loss is absolutely horrible. Unwatchable. Analog signals can still be watched when snowy.
Analog broadcast television, IMHO, really did get a lot of things right. I do miss it.
I never could get a good digital signal and neither could my mom so I switched to Nextflix and Hulu. My mom could only get a few channels at her apartment.
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When they switched over in my area a few years back for a few months after they repeatedly played a government sponsored video on the old analog channels about why there are no TV shows on any more and it talked about how great digital TV was and how to get a discounted box using a coupon from the government.
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In Sweden they switched off the last analogue transmitter in 2007, you can still watch analogue TV on cable thou.
/stefan
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I believe Perth, WA already had their digital TV switched off some time in 2010 or 2011.
Singapore, on the other hand, will switch off analog by 2020 or so I heard, also less than half of all the channels are available on digital currently.
When you were mentioning networks like the ABC, I had this crazy idea where you would somehow end up on ABC3's Studio 3 for the wrong reasons, or you would end up assisting in a Prank Patrol(another great ABC3 show) prank. When I go for my big break here in Australia, the TV channel I watch most of the time is ABC3. Yes I do also watch channels like 7, 9, 10 and SBS 1 and 2.
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Spec an just after switch off....
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The transmitters will probably stay in service for the digital services, as they still need a few kW at the transmitter antenna.
Nop, if I see it right, Australia moved from PAL to DVB-T. There nothing fits. Power transmitters, control transmitters, test systems, monitors, signal even antennas, etc. all has to go. If Australia is similar to other parts of the world they should have plenty of hight-power transmitter equipment on the surplus market, and a lot of obscure analog signal monitoring and test equipment, too.
Actually, there is more in common with DVB-T transmitters and old analogue transmitters than you might think. The first generation of DVB-T transmitters used in Australian capital cities was based on a modified analogue solid-state transmitter. The power amplifiers are operated as class AB instead of C, and the exciter/modulator is different, but then everything after that is pretty much the same.
I have a before and after screenshot of the spectrum, and a screenshot of SBS-7 turning on... will post tomorrow.
None of the later generations of analog TV Transmitters in Australia operated in Class C,as they were all low level modulated at IF frequencies.
Vis IF was 38.9MHz,& Sound IF(s) at 33.4MHz & 33.15MHz approx.(Stereo).
The signal was then up converted to the required Channel,( note frequency inversion) so linear amplification was required.
The very early Transmitters used high level modulation,so could operate the PA in class C.
As digital & analog operated in parallel for many years,it is doubtful if any analog Tx were modified to digital by the TV Networks (or their surrogates).
The first digital TV Tx I saw was very different to the analog units in service at that time.
The weirdest thing to me was water cooling,which to me was an archaic way of doing things.
Strangely,it wasn't made by NEC or any of the other popular brands of the time.
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In Sweden they switched off the last analogue transmitter in 2007, you can still watch analogue TV on cable thou.
/stefan
The cable companies here capitalized on that and ran lots of commercials about there was no need to worry about digital tv converters or analog switch off, just keep using your cable box and you'll be ok.
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Actually, there is more in common with DVB-T transmitters and old analogue transmitters than you might think. The first generation of DVB-T transmitters used in Australian capital cities was based on a modified analogue solid-state transmitter.
First generation you say? Yes, that's how they started here, too. "Oh, we can reuse that analog stuff. Even with reduced power. It'll all work out." And then reality did hit them. The power turned out not to be enough in many cases. Bandwidth and linearity problems, although the channel bandwidth was supposed to be the same as analog. And then they switched antenna polarization at many sites in an attempt to reduce issues with cell phone usage. And they had synchronization problems keeping the single frequency network in phase. And someone decided to rearrange frequencies. In the end the old stuff went out the door, to join the surplus from the transmitters they completely dismantled. 1/20 of all transmitters were kept.
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Very cool, those analog signals will live on in the far reaches of space. Maybe some alien race will receive them and decode them and send them back to us at a later date! ;D
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Actually, there is more in common with DVB-T transmitters and old analogue transmitters than you might think. The first generation of DVB-T transmitters used in Australian capital cities was based on a modified analogue solid-state transmitter.
First generation you say? Yes, that's how they started here, too. "Oh, we can reuse that analog stuff. Even with reduced power. It'll all work out." And then reality did hit them. The power turned out not to be enough in many cases. Bandwidth and linearity problems, although the channel bandwidth was supposed to be the same as analog. And then they switched antenna polarization at many sites in an attempt to reduce issues with cell phone usage. And they had synchronization problems keeping the single frequency network in phase. And someone decided to rearrange frequencies. In the end the old stuff went out the door, to join the surplus from the transmitters they completely dismantled. 1/20 of all transmitters were kept.
Didn't happen in Oz!
The "first generation" may have been modified analog,although I doubt it,but if so, they were modified by the manufacturer a long time before they got to the final users.
The existing Analog transmitters were needed to maintain that service until it was terminated.
As I remarked earlier,the first digital TV Transmitter I saw used very different design techniques to that of the existing Transmitters.
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You're correct - they were modified by the manufacturer, which was Thales/Thomcast.
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Hi all
As far as I know, only CH7 have been doing farewells as part of their switch off. The Sydney one (the end of which is in Dave's video) can be seen here Channel Seven Sydney - Farewell to Analogue TV (3.12.2013) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm5p3gjzr9s#ws)
I also loved the short Brisbane one (my hometown) that they did for our switch off earlier this year, available at Analog TV Transmission Switch off BTQ-7 Brisbane Australia May 28 2013 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2J0VNauRP0#)
I think it's great to see a bit of a farewell as part of the analog TV shutdown! :)
Cheers
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I remember reading about the UK switching off the 405 line transmitters recently, they estimated there were probably about a hundred viewers still watching it on equally ancient TV sets. Now you only get 405 lines as part of scan converters used by those who restore those older valve and early transistor sets.
Analogue TV reception is easy, you do not need IC's at all, just about 50 simple transistors and about the same number of assorted diodes, most used as amplifiers and oscillators. To do the same with digital Tv is simply not possible.
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Hi all
As far as I know, only CH7 have been doing farewells as part of their switch off. The Sydney one (the end of which is in Dave's video) can be seen here
I also loved the short Brisbane one (my hometown) that they did for our switch off earlier this year, available at
I think it's great to see a bit of a farewell as part of the analog TV shutdown! :)
Cheers
I like the "This is television 7!" with the older style musical jingles.
If I had a TV station I'd go out of my way to make jingles that sound like that.
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Pam and Jam productions out of Dallas make the vast majority of musical jingles for the US.
NBC-TV David Letterman plays JAM jingles (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfuJxqVpY-4#)
http://www.jingles.com/ (http://www.jingles.com/)
http://www.pams.com/listen.html (http://www.pams.com/listen.html)
Anyone from Dallas will certainly remember these:
http://www.jingles.com/audio/d_TouchOfChristmas.mp3 (http://www.jingles.com/audio/d_TouchOfChristmas.mp3)
http://www.jingles.com/jam/radioids/demodl.php?fmt=0&pkgsearch=&stasearch=kvil (http://www.jingles.com/jam/radioids/demodl.php?fmt=0&pkgsearch=&stasearch=kvil)
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Nice video Dave. I particularly like how they did the ending, that vintage sign off animation (I assume it was genuine old time not a parody?) but also how the feed ended by reducing to a fading dot. How many people would get that? Like the smell of a mimeograph right off the ditto machine or the feel of a Selectric keyboard, or refilling a Parker 51. Philo Farnsworth's tube has gone the way of the ages. Goodbye, magical moving images by way of radio broadcast.
(http://www.davinciinstitute.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Philo-Farnsworth.jpg)
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Channel 7 Melbourne Signoff (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wQj8Vuw2Q8)
Melbourne Analogue TV Switchoff 10/12/2013 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etoG8W-1OHo#)
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I particularly like how they did the ending, that vintage sign off animation (I assume it was genuine old time not a parody?)
Almost certainly a new creation, the significance of putting the baby kangaroo (analog) to sleep, the breaking down of the ATN 7 logo to create the bed, and the goodbye at the end, it's all pretty obvious analog is being "put to sleep".
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Nice interpretation,Dave,but it is an old one,-------------I remember seeing it years ago.
Remember,TV Stations used to close around midnight,hence the baby 'Roo put to bed, & "Goodnight"!
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Italy switched off some years ago. It was a long process, with some coexistence of the two signals, but the problems were never fully solved.
There were some political reasons (in those years government and TV where the same person) that dictated for a faster switch, even without an exact monitoring of the "on the field" situation.
Many homes in small valleys were served by "pirate" repeaters, built over the years, and nobody had an exact number of them, so now they are not reached by the DTV signal. The solution was to offer them a low cost satellite dish + receiver kit, and rebroadcast all DTV signal form satellite.
I have some receiver boxes (I bough one with money from the government), but they never worked as expected.
New TVs with integrated receivers work better, but a government regulation do not allow to rearrange channel order, so I have to scroll through tens of channels I'll never watch to reach the few I prefer.
A big problem was with radio microphones and In Ear Monitor receivers: the used frequencies located between two TV channels, and now there is no more free spectrum.
If you happen to be near a DTV transmitter, you cannot use your equipment. this was a disgrace for touring shows and OB vehicles.
Best regards
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Australia is well behind the times here in the uk our analog was turned of last yeah and the first TV was broadcast (from alexandra palace) in about 1937. we got colour TV in the 60s.
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I particularly like how they did the ending, that vintage sign off animation (I assume it was genuine old time not a parody?)
Almost certainly a new creation, the significance of putting the baby kangaroo (analog) to sleep, the breaking down of the ATN 7 logo to create the bed, and the goodbye at the end, it's all pretty obvious analog is being "put to sleep".
ATN-7 Closedown Early 80s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwTCkBhm3G0#)
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Somehow I found this article and video (http://www.electronicproducts.com/Videos/Throwback_Tech_RCA_s_Wireless_Wizard.aspx) related to this thread.
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I have never been able to find a photo, let alone a video tour, of any solid-state TV transmitters. I bet a solid state PA of the power needed for broadcast is an absolute work of art! Does anyone know of an photos or videos of somewhat modern TV transmission equipment?
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I have never been able to find a photo, let alone a video tour, of any solid-state TV transmitters. I bet a solid state PA of the power needed for broadcast is an absolute work of art! Does anyone know of an photos or videos of somewhat modern TV transmission equipment?
From the outside, not much to see http://www.rohde-schwarz.com/en/products/broadcasting/tv-transmitters/pg_overview_63702.html (http://www.rohde-schwarz.com/en/products/broadcasting/tv-transmitters/pg_overview_63702.html)
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Analogue TV reception is easy, you do not need IC's at all, just about 50 simple transistors and about the same number of assorted diodes, most used as amplifiers and oscillators. To do the same with digital Tv is simply not possible.
I don't see why this is a problem. You can't build a modern broadband modem with individual transistors, so why limit ourselves to simple analog TV?
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Many homes in small valleys were served by "pirate" repeaters, built over the years, and nobody had an exact number of them, so now they are not reached by the DTV signal. The solution was to offer them a low cost satellite dish + receiver kit, and rebroadcast all DTV signal form satellite.
I have some receiver boxes (I bough one with money from the government), but they never worked as expected.
New TVs with integrated receivers work better, but a government regulation do not allow to rearrange channel order, so I have to scroll through tens of channels I'll never watch to reach the few I prefer.
How about using the internet to stream all tv channels to every house? Where I live some internet service providers used to (or still do) multicast stream freeview tv channels for every customer. Just fire up VLC and all is good to go. Multicast over wifi suffers some problems, but problems are usually solved. Capable hardware is now cheaper than ever, all needed is a Raspberry pi wifi dongle and access points which are wired up. As a bonus everyone gets internet.
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Analogue went off a while back in the UK, for years the manufacturers were coining in on this selling "Digital Ready" Aerials and what not, fooling people in to thinking their aerial needed to be replaced, their TV needed to be replaced etc.
Just like "CD Ready" on headphones in the 80's haha!
Digital TV is all about more revenue here, let's see how many channels we can fit on the multiplex with as little bit rate as possible, even the HD channels have taken a bitrate hit over the past few years.
Now there is a new money spinner, 4G mobile networks interfere with DVB-T/DVB-T2, so more aerials are sold and passive filters.
DAB is a waste of time, lesser audio quality than FM due to bit-rate on the majority of channels, everyone uses FM especially in vehicles.
Plus DAB is based on a well out of date codec.
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The old analogue test pattern was very useful. Aligning the CRT trace with a moving image was completely useless. I could not afford a test pattern generator, so I recorded the ABC test pattern at the end of transmission on video tape recorder and use it to align the geometry and convergence on colour TV sets.
Goodbye analogue. (It is still better than digital in one respect - weak signals could be "decoded" by the human brain. With digital, you have no chance if the signal is not strong enough. Tough.)