Poll

Want to see Dave have a look at Bybee Technology's audio Quantum Purifiers?

Yes
18 (23.7%)
No
58 (76.3%)

Total Members Voted: 75

Voting closed: October 21, 2017, 11:05:41 am

Author Topic: Bybee's Lament  (Read 14574 times)

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Offline Alex Nikitin

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #150 on: September 29, 2017, 07:16:25 am »
I am disappointed with this reference to a "superposition" .

I'm sure you are, because it falls into the category of inconvenient facts. Everyone here who didn't sleep through "signal and systems" will know all music is, is a rather odd collection of sine waves in superposition.  Although music in itself might be viewed as special, mystical or magical, as a signal there is nothing special, mystical or magical about music, it is at the end of the day, just another signal. If you can reproduce a sine wave accurately you can reproduce music accurately. If a reproduction system has properties that genuinely affect the music being played though it that effect will be measurable with test equipment just as it will with non-music signals.

Quote
It is substantially different. A continuous sine wave or even a number of sine waves do not represent it accurately, neither does a noise type signal.  Music has a number of qualities which distinguish it from other sounds. Music contains transients and these transients contain the information - which is perceived up to a large degree on a subconscious level, producing emotions. Large part of musical perception is down to its rhythmical structure, which is positioned well below the audible frequency range and thus can be affected by a low frequency time constants, including thermal behaviour of a circuit - in seconds and tens of seconds time frame. And so on. On a simple level it looks simple. If we talk about the best achievable quality of reproduction - not so simple.

Oh c'mon. Perceiving rhythmical structure is not going to be affected by a ten second thermal time constant. I can perceive a tarantella rhythm out of my speakers, respond to it emotionally, dance down the stairs (in time) and be ten feet up the road well out of ear shot before 10 seconds have passed. If a long time constant was going to have an effect on my emotional perception it'd have to chase me down the street, something that does not come as second nature to electronics unless it also happens to contain the additional elements propulsion, guidance and warhead. Engineering has definitely left the building and wo-wo, or at best conjecture, is being offered up in its place.

You are saying "engineering has left the building ". Let's see, who's building it is :) .

1) Superposition works only in a completely linear system. Find me one.

2) You resort to a subjective claim when saying that "Perceiving rhythmical structure is not going to be affected by a ten second thermal time constant". Ten seconds is a long time but the effects of that time constant could be noticeable (and measurable) at much shorter intervals.

Cheers

Alex
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 08:09:13 am by Alex Nikitin »
 

Offline madires

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #151 on: September 29, 2017, 10:04:06 am »
I think we're missing one important point in this discussion: dynamic range != SPL. With environmental noise at about 40dBA and a reasonable upper limit of maybe 90dBA (we don't want to become deaf) we have an usable range of 50dB for the SPL. That means the CD's dynamic range of 96dB has to be "compressed" into 50dB for the SPL and also shifted to start at about 40dBA, ideally.
 

Offline medical-nerd

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #152 on: September 29, 2017, 10:43:50 am »
Hiya

Regarding audiophools

Not trying to be controversial and in no way supporting people that fleece others - but - If they have the money and it makes them happy what is the problem? It may be a purely placebo subjective experience that there is an improvement, but so is appreciation of art.

Show me the Mona Lisa - just a picture of a woman, so what.
Show me a Henry Moore sculpture or a vintage variable capacitor and I could wet myself!!

Just my opinion...

Cheers
'better to burn out than fade away'
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #153 on: September 29, 2017, 11:11:38 am »
Those things don't pretend to be something else.

They are not "sold" as being anything other than what they are.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #154 on: September 29, 2017, 11:47:42 am »
If they have the money and it makes them happy what is the problem?

Audiophoolery in itself might not be (very) harmful but if people start believing in one flavor of woo-woo then it's a slippery slope to them believing all sorts of other woo-woo.

Remember: The woo-woo believers have the same voting power as you. To me it seems logical to try to keep their numbers as low as possible.

You'll also be doing them a favor: A dollar spent on better speakers or room conditioning instead of magic rocks is a dollar well spent.  :)
 
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Online Cerebus

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #155 on: September 29, 2017, 11:55:00 am »

You are saying "engineering has left the building ". Let's see, who's building it is :) .

1) Superposition works only in a completely linear system. Find me one.

Oh look mummy, a man made completely from straw.

You know very well that that is a classic strawman argument. Because you can't answer the point you create a new spurious question. You know such a thing, a completely linear system, does not exist except on paper; I might as well say "If you know so much, show me a completely perfect amplifier" knowing that such a thing is not possible. You also know that the absence from reality of ideal, completely linear systems doesn't mean that the practical linear systems that do exist suddenly stop obeying the laws of physics.

Quote

2) You resort to a subjective claim when saying that "Perceiving rhythmical structure is not going to be affected by a ten second thermal time constant". Ten seconds is a long time but the effects of that time constant could be noticeable (and measurable) at much shorter intervals.

Cheers

Alex

I respond to a subjective claim from you in kind, and you suddenly treat subjective claims as somehow "off the table"? Again, "move the goalposts" is another classic technique deployed when someone has nothing of substance left to their argument.

It's at this point that I bow out. When one side of the argument starts scraping the bottom of the barrel with logical fallacies like strawman arguments  and moving the goalposts you know that they have nothing of substance left to support their position and any further disputation is just going to be unenlightening. If there was anything of import to debate here, that actually mattered in the real world like slavery, it would be worth the effort to keep 'pricking the bubble' until you gave in, but a little bit of minor grade audiophoolery is not worth the candle.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline Alex Nikitin

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #156 on: September 29, 2017, 12:07:57 pm »

You are saying "engineering has left the building ". Let's see, who's building it is :) .

1) Superposition works only in a completely linear system. Find me one.

Oh look mummy, a man made completely from straw.

You know very well that that is a classic strawman argument. Because you can't answer the point you create a new spurious question. You know such a thing, a completely linear system, does not exist except on paper; I might as well say "If you know so much, show me a completely perfect amplifier" knowing that such a thing is not possible. You also know that the absence from reality of ideal, completely linear systems doesn't mean that the practical linear systems that do exist suddenly stop obeying the laws of physics.

Quote

2) You resort to a subjective claim when saying that "Perceiving rhythmical structure is not going to be affected by a ten second thermal time constant". Ten seconds is a long time but the effects of that time constant could be noticeable (and measurable) at much shorter intervals.

Cheers

Alex

I respond to a subjective claim from you in kind, and you suddenly treat subjective claims as somehow "off the table"? Again, "move the goalposts" is another classic technique deployed when someone has nothing of substance left to their argument.

It's at this point that I bow out. When one side of the argument starts scraping the bottom of the barrel with logical fallacies like strawman arguments  and moving the goalposts you know that they have nothing of substance left to support their position and any further disputation is just going to be unenlightening. If there was anything of import to debate here, that actually mattered in the real world like slavery, it would be worth the effort to keep 'pricking the bubble' until you gave in, but a little bit of minor grade audiophoolery is not worth the candle.

OK, see you around!

 ::)

Alex
 

Online Cerebus

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #157 on: September 29, 2017, 12:12:18 pm »
OK, see you around!

Oh, I'm sure you will.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #158 on: September 29, 2017, 12:20:31 pm »
Those things don't pretend to be something else.

They are not "sold" as being anything other than what they are.
It's sold as a collection of pigmented paints on a stretched canvas, not as a depiction of a woman  ;D
 

Offline medical-nerd

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #159 on: September 29, 2017, 08:15:22 pm »
Jeeze

What extremes people will go to.

Just found these cables - dare you to look at the price...especially the 1.25m mains cord.

Cheers
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 08:17:42 pm by medical-nerd »
'better to burn out than fade away'
 
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Offline kalel

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #160 on: September 29, 2017, 08:37:50 pm »
Jeeze

What extremes people will go to.

Just found these cables - dare you to look at the price...especially the 1.25m mains cord.

Cheers

They are obviously targeted at specific people. But if you want to hear a real performance, perhaps go and listen to an orchestra, it will have all the nuances possible. Otherwise even with the perfect gear, you're limited to their recording gear. This must have its limits and the microphones must have a characteristic frequency response (with whatever adjustments are applied later it's not going to be a 1:1 reproduction in any case).

I guess you could invite people over to play for you as well. That should have all of the bass and treble and subtle textures and feel like you're hearing the actual instruments, or will it instead be inferior?
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #161 on: September 29, 2017, 08:37:58 pm »
Just found these cables - dare you to look at the price...especially the 1.25m mains cord.

Why would they even bother selling them? They can't possibly make a profit at that price.

The should grab a pair of cables and go directly after the James Randi million dollar challenge instead.
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #162 on: September 29, 2017, 08:53:03 pm »
Just found these cables - dare you to look at the price...especially the 1.25m mains cord.

Why would they even bother selling them? They can't possibly make a profit at that price.

The should grab a pair of cables and go directly after the James Randi million dollar challenge instead.

They may use marketing tricks to sell them.

E.g. Email a special offer, whereby you can get the $29,999 cables for the bargain price of only $7,499 if you buy in the next two days.

Or they can include (4 lots of them) $120,000 worth of cables (i.e. 4 free cables if you buy the Hi-Fi), with their wildly over-priced Hi-Fi unit, which is only $79,000 (I just made up that price, for illustration purposes).

Just selling one of those cables, they may be able to make a profit at that price. ($29,999 each).
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 08:55:24 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline xrunner

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #163 on: September 29, 2017, 11:13:41 pm »
What extremes people will go to.

Just found these cables - dare you to look at the price...especially the 1.25m mains cord.

Yep - it's all about what the buyer can see. It makes them feel good. Look how beautiful they are. But let's suppose we remove the cover from the amp, or look inside the speakers the person that buys those would have. What would we see? A continuation of that type of wiring? I don't think so. It's more than likely plain old copper wire. Probably a nice large gauge, but just regular wire. So between the plain wire of the amp and the plain wire of the speaker, that cable makes all the difference?

 :popcorn:
I am a Test Equipment Addict (TEA) - by virtue of this forum signature, I have now faced my addiction
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #164 on: September 29, 2017, 11:20:11 pm »
What extremes people will go to.

Just found these cables - dare you to look at the price...especially the 1.25m mains cord.

Yep - it's all about what the buyer can see. It makes them feel good. Look how beautiful they are. But let's suppose we remove the cover from the amp, or look inside the speakers the person that buys those would have. What would we see? A continuation of that type of wiring? I don't think so. It's more than likely plain old copper wire. Probably a nice large gauge, but just regular wire. So between the plain wire of the amp and the plain wire of the speaker, that cable makes all the difference?

 :popcorn:

But you're forgetting about the magic psi-o-oscillating quantum cry-o-rock, crystal. Which harnesses the tiny cosmic phantons, to reduce the signal to mythicalness ratio, by a full quarter moon cycle. Thus enhancing the natural psi of the music.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #165 on: September 30, 2017, 10:02:03 am »
But you're forgetting about the magic psi-o-oscillating quantum cry-o-rock, crystal. Which harnesses the tiny cosmic phantons, to reduce the signal to mythicalness ratio, by a full quarter moon cycle. Thus enhancing the natural psi of the music.

They're the 50 Ohm terminators of the audio world. Absolutely necessary to avoid reflections in the wires.

So between the plain wire of the amp and the plain wire of the speaker, that cable makes all the difference?

Yes, see above.
 
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Offline xani

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #166 on: September 30, 2017, 11:05:22 pm »

Yep - it's all about what the buyer can see. It makes them feel good. Look how beautiful they are. But let's suppose we remove the cover from the amp, or look inside the speakers the person that buys those would have. What would we see? A continuation of that type of wiring? I don't think so. It's more than likely plain old copper wire. Probably a nice large gauge, but just regular wire. So between the plain wire of the amp and the plain wire of the speaker, that cable makes all the difference?

 :popcorn:
Oh, I'm sure that on inside it also uses some pretty looking wires too, in case someone opens it
 

Online HighVoltage

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #167 on: October 01, 2017, 08:12:35 am »
Jeeze

What extremes people will go to.

Just found these cables - dare you to look at the price...especially the 1.25m mains cord.
Cheers

I did look at the prices ....
Well, whatever expectation one has it is not enough.

My first reaction: this must me a joke, really, may be the decimal point is miss-printed
WOW!
Hmmm .... may be I am in the wrong business.
.... But then, how many can they sell for this price? May be none?
UNREAL !

There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #168 on: October 02, 2017, 07:06:08 pm »
Quote
They're the 50 Ohm terminators of the audio world. Absolutely necessary to avoid reflections in the wires.
Except that 50 Ohm terminators are really useful, don't mix them with Audiophoolery...

Yeah, ok, you have some for 1$, and some for 1000$, with a fraction of a dB calibration, etc.....
But both actually have a legitimate use ! (terminating an open cable vs. calibrating or referencing a fine instrument)
 

Offline bloguetronica

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #169 on: November 15, 2017, 11:42:35 am »
These guys should be in jail. Not worth to buy one, even if it is to do a bad review. You are paying them when you do.

Lets say that it is a crock of s**** outright, without even testing the physical thing. "No proof" requires no proof. They can't prove it works, so Dave doesn't need to prove it doesn't.
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #170 on: November 15, 2017, 12:47:51 pm »
Mein Got !!!!!!
("Bybee Quantum Purifiers operate on the quantum mechanical level to regulate the flow of electrons...")
I thought, (and know) Pedophiles are bad, but these damn so called purist "Audiophiles" are something else......
Maybe we should talk about 'SnakeOil', or humor "Flat-Earthers".... sigh.....  :-)
 

Offline bloguetronica

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #171 on: November 15, 2017, 01:09:46 pm »
It occurred to me that, besides being audiophoolery, this is audiophillery.  :-DD
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 02:03:22 pm by bloguetronica »
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #172 on: November 16, 2017, 12:04:26 am »
It is pointless trying to take on these snake oil peddlers.

They just change the "operational parameters" (as we would call them) to circumvent or at least obfuscate any disproving argument.

They prey on the gullible and uninformed - and as much as we might want to educate their target audience, they will run their con-man play book and, if they are "good", can even turn our efforts into an endorsement of their flim-flam.


This emoticon doesn't come close to the futility involved:  :horse:
 


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