Poll

Want to see Dave have a look at Bybee Technology's audio Quantum Purifiers?

Yes
18 (23.7%)
No
58 (76.3%)

Total Members Voted: 75

Voting closed: October 21, 2017, 11:05:41 am

Author Topic: Bybee's Lament  (Read 14362 times)

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Offline Brumby

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2017, 03:24:15 am »
Not with a 10ft barge pole

Aw. please?

Don't hold your breath.

I was actually surprised when Dave mentioned the 10ft barge pole.  I thought for sure that he would have referred to the 20ft one - just to keep that much further away.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2017, 12:27:48 pm »
AND...if anyone actually performed a controlled experiment (A/B/X) followed by detailed measurements and a comprehensive teardown debunking the bullshit, the believers would still label it: "Fake News".

Well, that's true, but if he were to prove that the sheep dip is nothing more than some common material, like epoxy, and under it is nothing more than a common resistor,

You mean like people have been doing with speaker cables for the last 40 years?

There's a million dollar prize for anybody who can hear the difference between a $7000 speaker cable and a piece of Walmart lamp cord. Nobody's even tried to claim it yet (where are all the golden ears?)

That challenge was posted on many big web sites, including the exchanges with the CEO of the company first accepting then chickening out, etc.

Has that made any difference whatsoever? Nope. None at all. The company is still selling cables, people are still buying them.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 12:42:09 pm by Fungus »
 

Online schmitt trigger

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2017, 07:12:13 pm »
And once upon a time, there was the Tice clock

 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2017, 08:10:08 pm »
Abx tests don't work for quantum related audiophoolery stuff, the tester influences the experiment  |O
Anyway there is so many audiophools garbage out there, even stuff you have to stick on all wires, transformers and speakers and looks like womens pantyliners and they should clear up and improve the audio.  :o
Best thing to do is leave it as is, it is a can of worms and almost religious of nature, if you go to a de o and tell them you hear no difference it is you who is to blame, your ears or yourbrains, your sceptism whatever but not that sacred pantyliner they are selling  :horse:
 

Offline ztatic

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2017, 08:59:25 pm »
Abx tests don't work for quantum related audiophoolery stuff, the tester influences the experiment  |O
Anyway there is so many audiophools garbage out there, even stuff you have to stick on all wires, transformers and speakers and looks like womens pantyliners and they should clear up and improve the audio.  :o
Best thing to do is leave it as is, it is a can of worms and almost religious of nature, if you go to a de o and tell them you hear no difference it is you who is to blame, your ears or yourbrains, your sceptism whatever but not that sacred pantyliner they are selling  :horse:

Sacred pantyliner! I love it.

The reason I was thinking physical proof of ordinariness might help at least some borderline audiophools steer clear is that they don't trust A/B/X, and if they're smart, for good reason. Subtle audio effects are hard to tease out using even the most carefully arranged A/B/X, a problem apparently caused by plain old fatigue from the listening effort. (Of course, if something isn't relatively obvious, like the effect of moving the speakers an inch or two, then it isn't worth bothering with to start, but this isn't about reasonable expectations.) Snake oil dealers sometimes try using the fatigue effect to discredit negative A/B/X results, not seeming to get their own joke/koan that an improvement can be heard only when not trying to hear it.

Anyway, the usual audio voodoo crap takes too long to switch in and out while maintaining otherwise identical conditions, so false positives are more likely than false negatives. How are you going to quickly A/B/X a box of panty liners scattered all around a system? As snake oil goes, panty liners are genius.

About this having been done ad nauseam with wire, well, measurable wire differences exist, even to the point of low inductance speaker cable causing some poorly designed audiophool amplifiers to oscillate, an obvious effect indeed, but these Quantum Purifiers are something else.

Even if panty liners, binding post antennas, tiny wall badges, and so on make a nice sound in the heads of the bamboozlable, I still think it's possible that the particular variety of pseudo-science incantations published by Bybee are vulnerable to pointing out that the basis is just a plain lie, from which no effects can evolve.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2017, 01:18:09 am »
The reason I was thinking physical proof of ordinariness might help at least some borderline audiophools steer clear is that they don't trust A/B/X, and if they're smart, for good reason.

While I fully appreciate your objective, the proof of "ordinariness" is something you can never achieve.  No matter how thorough your argument, the snake oil merchants will simply create some mystical parameters that have no real meaning and wrap these in bullshit that makes them sound credible.  Furthermore, since these mystical parameters have no actual physical presence, they will be impossible to empirically disprove.

I could go on .... as we all could .... but it's a no-win battle - and I don't think there are many "borderline" audiophools.  Any "reservations" about a particular product or claim would hint at some engineering reasoning - and as soon as that puppy is in play, all the smoke and mirrors begin to clear......
 

Offline ztatic

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2017, 06:14:48 pm »
It is a fact that there are people with technical acumen, who are nonetheless involved in the audiophool religion -- these people approach snake oil with a grain of salt, but tend to try it anyway.

I know a bright and capable molecular biologist who, many years ago, before the days of YouTube, bought that green magic marker you might remember for the edges of his CD's to smooth the sound, and speaker cables that were made from coax suspended in oil-filled tubing. He said the marker was cheap enough to throw away, and he knew the cables might be BS, but got a "good deal" used on Audiogon. He couldn't say for sure that he heard a difference with the cables, but didn't see the harm in using them anyway.

These people need reliable resources to refer to that serve to reinforce their better judgement. It's not a matter of fighting a quixotic battle against BS. It's a matter of providing defensive tools to the not entirely converted.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2017, 11:58:57 pm »
While you might think someone with the nous to be a molecular biologist could understand why audiophool products are a waste, unless they have some fundamental understanding of the engineering involved, they are as clueless as the masses.

While it is heartening to see their BS radar twitch a bit, the fact that they exchanged money for the possibility of a "better experience" still supports an industry that needs to lay down and die.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2017, 01:29:22 am »
The green marker pen would be plausible if it was an analog signal on the CD.

People don't seem to get that $20 CD drives can read disks perfectly (at 56x normal spin speed no less!) and that bit errors would cause audible clicks, not reduced bass.

I once tried to argue this point to a guy with an $8000 CD player. It was like talking to a brick wall.

Also: Jitter is a myth. It's based on real math, yes, but any stray harmonics caused by jitter in the nanosecond range will be completely inaudible.

(And that's using the exact same math as the math you're using to prove that jitter is bad, mmmmkay. If my math is invalid then so is yours!)

 

Offline AlfBaz

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2017, 01:57:40 am »
In the countless audiophool threads, I'm sure it's been said before that we should probably jump in and take some of this money with our own BS audio device.

I have one that could might actually have some merit and it involves no sound

Given the money paid by audiophools to extract every ounce of sound goodness from their systems, a quality pair of noise cancellation headphones to wear when you are not listening to your system will protect your biological aural system. This will preserve your ears so that they may be in a pristine state and can truly appreciate music at its molecular level
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2017, 03:38:24 am »
They're always after more "air", right?

Let's sell something to pressurize the listening room. Denser air also gives more bass. Who doesn't want that?
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2017, 03:49:45 am »
Why not combine that requirement with, say, habitat sales?

The perfect solution would be underwater habitat.  Naturally pressurised by the water above with the bonus of ambient noise suppression without all that dust-collecting anechoic material.

Next comes along some entrepreneur who will sell you a water bubble you can install in your land based listening room, with all the equipment - and the listener - inside, giving you the same effect as the underwater habitat.

The next evolutionary step would be for the "microcosm" solution involving a pair of waterproof headphones and a bucket of water to stick your head in.

... and I fear somebody would actually do it.
 

Offline Blocco

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2017, 08:28:46 am »
This thread wouldn't be complete without mentioning Peter Belt:
http://www.pwbelectronics.co.uk/images-of-our-products
 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2017, 09:21:39 am »
This thread wouldn't be complete without mentioning Peter Belt:
http://www.pwbelectronics.co.uk/images-of-our-products
Please tell me that's a piss take.
 

Offline Alex Nikitin

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2017, 09:24:44 am »
The green marker pen would be plausible if it was an analog signal on the CD.

People don't seem to get that $20 CD drives can read disks perfectly (at 56x normal spin speed no less!) and that bit errors would cause audible clicks, not reduced bass.

I once tried to argue this point to a guy with an $8000 CD player. It was like talking to a brick wall.

Also: Jitter is a myth. It's based on real math, yes, but any stray harmonics caused by jitter in the nanosecond range will be completely inaudible.

(And that's using the exact same math as the math you're using to prove that jitter is bad, mmmmkay. If my math is invalid then so is yours!)

You are actually wrong on almost all counts (except, perhaps, the brick wall expression as it is subjective).

1) The signal recorded on the CD is obviously analogue, it is read in an analogue way and then the digital information is recovered from it.
2) Reading errors do not produce audible clicks and pops unless there is enough of them to overcome both the in-built error correction and the interpolation mechanism.
3) Jitter is not a myth. Timing errors (=jitter) do reduce the resolution directly and 350ps jitter is roughly equals a 1 LSB error in 16bit 44.1kHz sampling.

I did design several CD players in the past, and did some interesting investigation work on the subject of various influences on the sound quality, which resulted in a player which was mostly immune to the disk variations, green pens, recorded CDs etc from the sound quality point of view. There is a perfectly valid physics involved, no voodoo.

Cheers

Alex
 

Offline woody

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2017, 09:48:57 am »
I think that a $7k speaker cable will sound better, due to psychology. Listening to music involves much more than the technical voodoo used to get the signal from the source to its destination. Your brain plays the most important part in that. Your state of mind influences whether you like a particular piece of music, or not.

I recon that having shelled out big money for a cable programs your brain to make it sound better, while this is not measurable in any way. Same effect goes for scopes, multi meters, signal generators, soldering irons and what not  8)

 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2017, 11:29:57 am »
I did design several CD players in the past, and did some interesting investigation work on the subject of various influences on the sound quality, which resulted in a player which was mostly immune to the disk variations, green pens, recorded CDs etc from the sound quality point of view. There is a perfectly valid physics involved, no voodoo.

My $20 CD-drive can usually read an entire CD at full 56x speed without a single C2 error report (ie. that no error correction was necessary).

If there's an error report it can always go back and retry at lower speed.

3) Jitter is not a myth. Timing errors (=jitter) do reduce the resolution directly and 350ps jitter is roughly equals a 1 LSB error in 16bit 44.1kHz sampling.

Jitter will be down to whatever oscillator drives the DAC. It will be audible in even a $2 oscillator.

What does 1 LSB error equate to in terms of noise floor?  :popcorn:
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 02:23:24 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2017, 01:14:54 pm »
About the size of a speck of dust between the granules in the grout between the tiles of that floor.
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2017, 03:53:10 pm »
Quote
I think that a $7k speaker cable will sound better, due to psychology.
Yep, that's the point.
The statement "$7k speaker cable" simply sounds better than the statement "Piece of walmart lamp cord". That's it. The sound coming from the speaker is not better in any way.
 

Offline medical-nerd

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2017, 10:21:12 pm »
I have to get one of those pwbelectronics 'spiratube' devices, they are well known to improve the aura of negative electrons - changing them to the more satisfying phase coherent positive electrons, so improving the immersion of the listener in the hyperspatial quantum environment, essential for appreciating the macrosonic nuances of 6th dimensional sound echos.

Cheers




edit : from the comments below , I don't think you realise this was a joke.......
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 05:45:24 am by medical-nerd »
'better to burn out than fade away'
 

Offline helius

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2017, 10:36:13 pm »
I have to get one of those pwbelectronics 'spiratube' devices
That appears to be an off the shelf spiral wire wrap, available from several manufacturers for $0.25 per foot.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2017, 01:14:04 am »
... those pwbelectronics 'spiratube' devices, they are well known to improve the aura of negative electrons - changing them to the more satisfying phase coherent positive electrons ....

"well known" ?  .... I must be living under a rock.

"positive electrons" ? .... Forget fusion!  The solution to our power needs rests right here in antimatter!!!!
 

Offline ztatic

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2017, 01:36:35 am »
While you might think someone with the nous to be a molecular biologist could understand why audiophool products are a waste, unless they have some fundamental understanding of the engineering involved, they are as clueless as the masses.

While it is heartening to see their BS radar twitch a bit, the fact that they exchanged money for the possibility of a "better experience" still supports an industry that needs to lay down and die.

You seem not to be a scientist, but don't you know any? Even a mere biologist has to take a semester or two of physics in college, never mind the usual year of physics in junior high school that everyone takes, or possibly high school.

You say the industry should lay down and die, but argue for abandoning the hapless victims to the siren song of fraudsters' bullshit. You appear to wish that the tug from this revolting industry is left without a challenge that might reinforce the tug from the potential victim's better judgement. 

And the rest of you having fun imagining new forms of bullshit are no better. Anyone can do that. That's not what this thread is about. What the F. Is any of you over the [mental] age of 14? I am out of here.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #48 on: September 26, 2017, 03:06:24 am »
its quantum mechanical guys remember? its quantum mechanical... btw quantum mechanical claim needs quantum mechanical proof (instrumentation)... and you can only find that instrument on the belt of this guy... so dont miss the opportunity if you happens to meet him...


if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #49 on: September 26, 2017, 03:43:04 am »
@ztatic ... Did I touch a nerve?

Doing a semester or two of physics does not guarantee any understanding of the engineering as implemented in real world technology.  The fact that this molecular biologist even contemplates there might be some benefit is, to me at least, an exceptionally strong indicator of precisely that.  Referring to High School physics is an even less compelling argument - unless you have a student who really grabs the subject by the throat - and they will be the ones that are not likely to fall for the BS.

If anything, High School and physics courses that are not majors, simply provide the opportunity to present terminology - or should I say more specifically, words and phrases - that allow the BS spruikers to present a lexicon that sounds impressive.  If you have someone with little interest in physics and has not bothered to follow that through to engineering and product design, then their "understanding" of physics is unlikely to help them with audiophoolery.

Please understand, I am not saying that this is the situation for all such technical specialists - or even a majority of them.  Far from it.  I fully expect the majority to be well grounded enough to detect the BS a mile away.  What I am saying, is that this is no guarantee.

...but argue for abandoning the hapless victims to the siren song of fraudsters' bullshit. You appear to wish that the tug from this revolting industry is left without a challenge that might reinforce the tug from the potential victim's better judgement.
Your view on this is simplistic and naive.

The whole spiel that the fraudsters put together is based on two fundamentals - provide enough technobabble to make it sound convincing to the victims and wrap it up in enough camouflage so that it's immune to debunking.  The fraudsters are simply following a basic marketing ploy, with an added layer of self-preservation.

I think you should pay more attention to the bullshit that is being rolled out - and come up with a definitive, categoric and authoritative test that can unequivocally debunk the claims from some of these products.  You do that and I can guarantee that someone will take it up and do the test - but I put your chances of success so close to zero that it doesn't matter (Please ... prove me wrong!!)

For whatever reason, the victim wants to believe.  Whether it is through something lacking in their life or they have just been convinced by a con artist or any one of a dozen reasons, they want to believe.  To make any progress with a victim's perception, you are going to have to introduce some doubt.  Since, really deep down in their heart, they want to believe - and they have a "guide" who is ready and willing to cultivate that belief - you have an uphill battle to even gain credibility, let alone be able to present concrete evidence.

Any attempt to challenge BS claims that does not clearly succeed - and this includes the BS suppliers conceding - does nothing to defeat them.  What it does do is raise the visibility of the so-called "product".  This falls under the heading of "there's no such thing as bad press".  More people are going to know about it and that just increases the size of the pool from which victims can be drawn.  If anything, challenges which fail to defeat the claims - as measured by the people who are selling them - will just result in them holding up such "failed" efforts as endorsements of the validity of their BS claims.

And the rest of you having fun imagining new forms of bullshit are no better. Anyone can do that. That's not what this thread is about.
I thought this thread was about putting BS "products" in their place.

Since direct confrontation has been explicitly planned for, ridicule is one avenue that is still available.

Quote
What the F. Is any of you over the [mental] age of 14? I am out of here.
I am sorry you feel that way, but this whole arena has been explored, discussed and analysed many times - and the only real progress has been made by the fraudsters as they have found ways to better "pad up" (a cricketing term) to face their enemies.
 


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