Author Topic: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide  (Read 1083131 times)

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Offline Polossatik

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #550 on: February 04, 2011, 01:35:12 pm »
Thank you very much Polossatik!!!  This guide was very easy to follow and gave all information necessary - very informative.

I'm just the "technical writer" :)
The real "thank you" goes out to the collaboration of all the people here who added each their own piece of the puzzle  ;D

@fminne : yeah, BE can be a pain, you just never know. I have had boxes as big as the Rigol going trough without any tax and small envelopes with a few chips in where they bugged me to provide invoices and stuff...
With DX make sure you use the 0.01 $ "gift" option, there seams to be a few .BE custom people who do know DealExtreme :)
For the rest IMHO it simply depends on who's doing the triage and if he/she has a hangover or not .
In general around 1 on 10 (when using non EMS shipping, use normal HK tracked airmail or so - In my experiance when using EMS you always pay..) is taxed, if you're lucky this is then a small parcel and if they don't think it's worth much they charge you 10 euro "provision".
Ordering stuff (7 working day on advance in general - does not work for DX) so it arrives during belgian holliday's also improves your "chance", they are then even more understaffed :)
For one or the other reason packages from the USA are better checked in .BE (and most us seller declare as total value the price + shipping, so you pay taxes on the shipping to!) - there you will almost *always* pay taxes on. I order nothing anymore from the US unless I cannot get it anywhere else. (Don't try to go against .BE customs, it's a nightmare , really, it takes day's to get to someone on the phone - use fax if you can)

one exception: Ordering stuff from TI USA seams to be actually "declared" in France as TI seams to ship everything trough France for .BE , that is (for me) always let trough without any extra taxes. I think the FR customs just cannot be bothered doing all the paperwork to pass the stuff on the .BE customs.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 01:55:37 pm by Polossatik »
Real Circuit design time in minutes= (2 + Nscopes) Testim + (40 +120 Kbrewski) Nfriends

Testim = estimated time in minutes Nscopes= number of oscilloscopes present Kbrewski = linear approx of the nonlinear beer effect Nfriends = number of circuit design friends present
 

Offline saturation

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Lissajou Testing of Hacked Scopes was Re: changing the rigol DS1052E ...
« Reply #551 on: February 04, 2011, 04:02:48 pm »
Folks, those of you have 1052E hacked can you test the frequency response of a Lissajou pattern?
This is the X-Y function of the scope.  

I find the 50 MHz scope can't display a useful Lissajou pattern past 100kHz, which is not a practical speed limit test for most anything electronic today.  The Rigol defaults to dot mode, and as the frequency increases, the signals are increasingly undersampled, and you can't see any pattern unless you reduce the amplitude substantially to 'connect the dots'.  X-Y at high frequencies also substantially loads the CPU, and you can see the Rigol crawl as you approach 100kHz.

Sadly, any cheapo analog scope can do this test easily, up to its rated analog bandwidth.  


From the Rigol Manual, here's the step by step:
"""
1. From the probe menu set the attenuation to 10X. Set the switch to 10X on the
probes.
2. Connect the CH 1 probe to the input of the network, and connect the CH 2 probe
to the output.
3. If the channels are not displayed, press the CH1 and CH2 buttons.
4. Press the AUTO button
5. Adjust the vertical knob to display approximately the same amplitude
signals on each channel
6. Press the MENU in horizontal control area to display the menu
7. Press the Time Base soft button to select X-Y
The oscilloscope displays a Lissajous pattern representing the input and output
characteristics of the circuit
8. Adjust the vertical and knobs to a desirable
waveform display."
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 04:14:09 pm by saturation »
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 Saturation
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #552 on: February 04, 2011, 05:41:44 pm »
My hacked DS1052E doesn't work at all well with my Tektronix TR210 (Huntron Tracker 200) in the X-Y mode. Even the cheapest  analogue CRO's cope fine with the TR210's X-Y output so I guess it horses for courses and I'll stick to using an analogue scope when doing component testing.
Cogito, ergo sum
 

Offline saturation

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #553 on: February 04, 2011, 06:37:48 pm »
Thanks Aurora, do you know if it works with any Tek brand DSO, not analog? 


My hacked DS1052E doesn't work at all well with my Tektronix TR210 (Huntron Tracker 200) in the X-Y mode. Even the cheapest  analogue CRO's cope fine with the TR210's X-Y output so I guess it horses for courses and I'll stick to using an analogue scope when doing component testing.
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 Saturation
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #554 on: February 04, 2011, 07:38:18 pm »
The Tektronix TR210 was the result of an exclusive contract with Huntron to produce an advanced component testing capability for the TDS200 range of DSO's. I would expect Tektronix to ensure that the TDS200 performs correctly with the X-Y output of the component tester but I have never seen the two connected together so cannot confirm the quality of the image produced.

The Tektronix TR210 sales page is here:

http://www2.tek.com/cmswpt/psdetails.lotr?ct=PS&cs=psu&ci=14667&lc=EN

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Offline saturation

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #555 on: February 04, 2011, 08:06:35 pm »
Thanks Aurora, I did see that earlier but didn't put it together in my head; if its made specifically for the low end TDS200 line, it could work with any better scopes in the line.

Not a major problem, but Rigol users should know X-Y is limited.  I'll continue to test it.


The Tektronix TR210 was the result of an exclusive contract with Huntron to produce an advanced component testing capability for the TDS200 range of DSO's. I would expect Tektronix to ensure that the TDS200 performs correctly with the X-Y output of the component tester but I have never seen the two connected together so cannot confirm the quality of the image produced.

The Tektronix TR210 sales page is here:

http://www2.tek.com/cmswpt/psdetails.lotr?ct=PS&cs=psu&ci=14667&lc=EN


Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #556 on: February 04, 2011, 08:26:45 pm »
Folks, those of you have 1052E hacked can you test the frequency response of a Lissajou pattern?
This is the X-Y function of the scope. 
I find the 50 MHz scope can't display a useful Lissajou pattern past 100kHz
is Lissajou hardware specific? is it possible there is flaw in firmware for lissajou display?
It's extremely difficult to start life.. one features of nature.. physical laws are mathematical theory of great beauty... You may wonder Why? our knowledge shows that nature is so constructed. We simply have to accept it. One could describe the situation by saying that... (Paul Dirac)
 

Offline saturation

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #557 on: February 04, 2011, 09:06:19 pm »
Hi mech:

Its possible this can be improved by firmware, if there is code inefficiency in there.  I intend to bring it to Rigol USA's attention, we all have nothing to lose.  But I don't know how often X-Y is used today and why they'd bother improve it.

If the Tek TDS200 series runs on similarly capable hardware, i.e., ADC at roughly the same speed etc., even if not identical, there is no strong reason the Rigol shouldn't be able to use a Huntron 200 on X-Y mode; reading the Huntron spec sheet it outputs to X-Y in a low frequency, so it can work with the Rigol, since I know it will work to 100kHz.

I haven't tried all possible avenues on the Rigol to improve the lissajou image, but if other DSOs are equally limited to ~ 100kHz, then its just a limitation of DSO versus analog.  I've put a question to the Tekway thread to see what tinman and others think.





Folks, those of you have 1052E hacked can you test the frequency response of a Lissajou pattern?
This is the X-Y function of the scope. 
I find the 50 MHz scope can't display a useful Lissajou pattern past 100kHz
is Lissajou hardware specific? is it possible there is flaw in firmware for lissajou display?

Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

alm

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #558 on: February 05, 2011, 11:36:39 am »
If the Tek TDS200 series runs on similarly capable hardware, i.e., ADC at roughly the same speed etc., even if not identical, there is no strong reason the Rigol shouldn't be able to use a Huntron 200 on X-Y mode; reading the Huntron spec sheet it outputs to X-Y in a low frequency, so it can work with the Rigol, since I know it will work to 100kHz.
The manual of the TDS-200 series states that the sample rate is a fixed 1MS/s in XY mode, but I have no problems displaying a ~100MHz sine way in XY mode. In dots mode, I don't see any hints of undersampling. The pattern (both amplitude and phase) changes as I change the frequency, but that's probably because of standing waves in my not properly terminated setup (there's a T splitter with ~20pF scope input in the middle of the cable, this probably messes up the impedance). The documentation states that to use the full sample rate, you should acquire the data in YT mode, stop the acquisition, and switch to XY mode, which suggests that it is a limitation in the arithmetic ability to calculate the XY graph. My guess is that YT is mostly done in hardware, but XY needs more software support. Not sure if the documentation is incorrect regarding the 1MS/s limit, I don't think there's any way to display the current sampling rate on this scope, but it seems unlikely to me to get these results with just 1MS/s.

The Tek TDS-3000 series does not have any limitations of XY mode documented in the manual, and displays a 270MHz sine just fine in XY mode. The display indicates that it's sampling at 5GS/s, and the display shows some fluctuations in the amount of phase shift (probably again because of impedance issues), so it appears to update plenty fast. So it's definitely not an inherent limitation in DSOs.

I haven't tried all possible avenues on the Rigol to improve the lissajou image, but if other DSOs are equally limited to ~ 100kHz, then its just a limitation of DSO versus analog.  I've put a question to the Tekway thread to see what tinman and others think.
DSOs are not known for great XY mode, but most analog scopes (with a few very expensive exceptions) also had a fairly limited X bandwidth of only 1MHz or so, with some phase difference because the X amplifier does not have a delay line.
 

Offline jahonen

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #559 on: February 05, 2011, 12:05:22 pm »
Not actually a Lissajous pattern, I teased my Agilent MSO6034 with a Composite video signal (X-input) and corresponding modulated RF signal (Y-input) (Y signal much above the rated 300 MHz input bandwidth) about one year ago:



I think that still image does not express fully how well that works in practice, it feels quite analog.

For comparison, same measurement on Tek TDS3034B:



Regards,
Janne
 

Offline saturation

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Undocumented Features, 100Ms/s XY Support + more Re: changing ...
« Reply #560 on: February 05, 2011, 11:30:49 pm »
jahonen & alm, awesome posts as always, more comments later, jahonen your Agilent grabs just blows me away.  This XY Rigol mode got me in tizzy but it had a good result.  I think the readers/hackers should know the following as it salvages the XY mode usability if some features are known and used together.

The manual doesn't have much to describe in XY mode.  It states 100Ms/s is not available, and when you engage XY mode in the Rigol, it stated maximum is 1Ms/s, and thus the crawling and dotty image when viewing Lissajous figures, once it reaches 100kHz, ~ 1/10 the sampling rate.

Slow sampling rates are fairly useless when trying to adjust 2 out of phase signals and tuning the Lissajous figure to stability. However, all is not lost.

I found the following undocumented control:
Acquire Button
MemDepth: select Long Mem will switch to 100Ms/s real time sampling rate
The other Menu items have no effect:
Sinx/x
Sampling


Horizontal Controls now are enhanced.
Position: disabled
Scale: adjusts Sampling Rate as follows:
Long Mem = Scale from 1Ms/s to 100Ms/s
Normal = Scale from 10ks/s to 1Ms/s


Vertical Controls, all work, but these shortcut help:
CH1+ Press Position button: centers X on screen
CH2+ Press Position button: centers Y on screen

The input amps can clearly go to the rated bandwidth of 50 MHz at -3dB, I checked each channel separately by measuring the length of each of the X & Y excursions,  but how useful XY or Lissajou figures will be depends on purpose.

Photos:

A most practical use today is measuring phase shift, so even low sampling rates work using "persistence" to draw an image but it has to be stable, it tends to 'fatten' from noise, making more accurate measures difficult.  Here the small circle is 75 MHz, the wide one is 7.5 MHz and narrow long one is 750kHz.  One 'feature' of the persistence is you can follow shifts as you adjust. You can increase the gain on the image to make manual measurements as best possible, and clear the screen to erase the unneeded image.  Phase shift is ~ 135, 45, and 20 degrees, by 'eyeball.'



For measuring frequency using Lissajous figures with unknown phase relationships, you can increase the sampling rate for a viable image, but it depends on the ratio of X/Y you use, and it can be awkward in dot mode.  here is a sample comparing 1 MHz to 5 MHz resulting in the 5-1 lobed figure that is usually moving and unstable until ratios synch and 'lock in'.  I used to do this with a stable reference, but a good frequency counter can replace this task easily.



Realtime sampling of 3 MHz 1:1, ~ 135 deg off phase.


 

« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 11:55:57 pm by saturation »
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Offline Fraser

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #561 on: February 06, 2011, 10:21:11 am »
Saturation,

Thanks for the great Post  :)

I didn't experiment much with the Rigol X-Y mode after initial poor results..... my mistake. I will revisit this and see if your discoveries make it viable for use with my TR210 tracker. Many thanks for your great work on this mode.

Thanks is also due to the other members of this Forum who have commented on X-Y mode issues.

Cogito, ergo sum
 

Offline saturation

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #562 on: February 06, 2011, 03:14:30 pm »
You're welcome, and thank you for your feedback from my initial question.

Not to hijack this thread, I think if modders make those small firmware changes, they should know what the scope was capable off before the mod, documented and undocumented functions, and that these will still continue to work after the hack; one other thing to test for besides the rise time and what's in the manual.



Saturation,

Thanks for the great Post  :)

I didn't experiment much with the Rigol X-Y mode after initial poor results..... my mistake. I will revisit this and see if your discoveries make it viable for use with my TR210 tracker. Many thanks for your great work on this mode.

Thanks is also due to the other members of this Forum who have commented on X-Y mode issues.


Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline Nifty

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #563 on: February 07, 2011, 10:52:10 am »
Successfully mod my Rigol DS1052E (ordered from DX 12/2010), initial FW version is 00.02.05.00.00, HW is 58.
Downgrade to 02.02, then mod and up to 00.02.04.01.02
Seems scope works more stable with 00.02.04.01.02 FW

Thank you guys!!!
 

Offline xnaron

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #564 on: February 08, 2011, 09:24:26 pm »
Those of you who just got there scopes and happened to notice... how many power up times did you see listed in the system info screen when checking the firmware version?
 

Offline torch

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #565 on: February 08, 2011, 10:01:53 pm »
7. Which was probably just about right, considering I turned it on a few times before I got that far.
 

Offline OhmEye

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #566 on: February 08, 2011, 10:21:20 pm »
7 times for me as well. I was a bit concerned at first when I received mine from Aidetek's NJ warehouse that it perhaps was not new. It was advertised as new with 3 year USA warranty, but arrived without a Rigol box and was packed in taped-up USPS materials, with the GUI set to Chinese. It was 00.02.05.00.00 hw58 and is working fine after the mod so no complaints.
 

Offline fminne

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #567 on: February 09, 2011, 05:27:30 am »
Mine was 6 times. This is, according to me, quite normal: during testing in China, they have to power it up a few times. And perhaps they also have to change the firmware to the latest available. So it is normal that the power up times counter is not 1. As long as it is under a 20, I wouldn’t say that your DS1052E is not a brand new one!
 

Offline OhmEye

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #568 on: February 09, 2011, 06:43:52 am »
I only thought mine might be new when I first opened the package, since it was packed by hand in cut-up USPS boxes wrapped around it with the probes and power cords taped to the cardboard, and no Rigol box or paperwork. ;) For all I know they did that to make it fit in a USPS flat-rate box, but it was a bit of a surprise. And I didn't expect the GUI to be set to Chinese on a unit with a USA warranty shipped from New Jersey. ;) I'm pretty sure it's new unit though. I was happy to see the 00.02.05.00.00 version though. :) :)
 

Offline saturation

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #569 on: February 09, 2011, 10:46:45 am »
This in interesting, Tequipment.net lists it for the same price, it came from their NJ warehouse in a few days, in a double box, factory sealed, both Rigol labeled boxes with formed styrofoam packing.  It had paperwork that said manufacture was April 2010, and I got it on May 2010; tequipment is an official dealer.

Further I was able to deal with them so I got the scope much less than $399, delivered.

Details:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=633.msg7553#msg7553

I only thought mine might be new when I first opened the package, since it was packed by hand in cut-up USPS boxes wrapped around it with the probes and power cords taped to the cardboard, and no Rigol box or paperwork. ;) For all I know they did that to make it fit in a USPS flat-rate box, but it was a bit of a surprise. And I didn't expect the GUI to be set to Chinese on a unit with a USA warranty shipped from New Jersey. ;) I'm pretty sure it's new unit though. I was happy to see the 00.02.05.00.00 version though. :) :)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 11:55:01 am by saturation »
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Offline xnaron

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #570 on: February 09, 2011, 09:49:28 pm »
for those of you that ordered from Dealextreme.

I ordered 2 one for me and one for a friend.  They didn't come double boxed.  In fact the box they came in didn't have the side flaps.  They were wrapped up in yellow packing tape.  The factory sealing tape was broken on both.  I don't really get the feeling that these were new.  They both seem to work but haven't used them enough to see if there are any issues.  I guess you get what you pay for.  I was expecting a new unit in a factory sealed box.  Both came with sw 00.02.05.01.02 hw: 58.  What were yours like?
 

Offline torch

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #571 on: February 09, 2011, 10:59:43 pm »
Mine came from DX in a sealed factory box, completely coated in additional packing tape. Maybe older units are now being opened at the factory warehouse so they can "upgrade" the firmware before shipping?
 

Offline xnaron

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #572 on: February 09, 2011, 11:44:08 pm »
Mine came from DX in a sealed factory box, completely coated in additional packing tape. Maybe older units are now being opened at the factory warehouse so they can "upgrade" the firmware before shipping?

Both boxes had the side folding tabs cut off on both ends.  Made the box weaker for shipping IMO.
 

Offline cWal

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #573 on: February 10, 2011, 07:37:10 am »
Mine came from DX in a sealed factory box, completely coated in additional packing tape. Maybe older units are now being opened at the factory warehouse so they can "upgrade" the firmware before shipping?

Both boxes had the side folding tabs cut off on both ends.  Made the box weaker for shipping IMO.
I received mine on January 29th from DealExcel (1 month to come), in a carboard box with the "RIGOL" tm printed on sides (original box I assume). I was so happy I did not pay much attention to the box ! But package seemed correct.
I can remember it had been powered up 5 times and firmware was 02.05.00.00, HW58 (02.04 now ;D). I must say I had ordered 2 others items that I received with the DSO, in a bigger cardboard. Main box was resealed with some tape "opened by custom"... And I had to pay €54 to UPS ;)
Still a bargain for me, this thing does what it is supposed to do and it does it well regarding to the price. No regrets ! 8)
Just a cons : the power supply cable must be in a chinese format (never seen before), so perfectly useless. But the DSO has a classic plug for main power so no problem to replace with the right one. Yet they supplied 2 plastic adaptators for main power but I am still wondering in which countries they can be used ::)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 07:46:24 am by cWal »
 

Offline delwinbest

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #574 on: February 10, 2011, 09:33:01 am »
You can determine how many times the unit has been switched on if you got to System info (cant remember where that was) and press CH1 CH1 CH2 CH2 MATH, it will then say how many times it was booted up.

for those of you that ordered from Dealextreme.

I ordered 2 one for me and one for a friend.  They didn't come double boxed.  In fact the box they came in didn't have the side flaps.  They were wrapped up in yellow packing tape.  The factory sealing tape was broken on both.  I don't really get the feeling that these were new.  They both seem to work but haven't used them enough to see if there are any issues.  I guess you get what you pay for.  I was expecting a new unit in a factory sealed box.  Both came with sw 00.02.05.01.02 hw: 58.  What were yours like?

Still no mod for the FW guys????
 


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