Author Topic: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide  (Read 1345053 times)

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Offline Cyclenorthman

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #675 on: April 27, 2011, 10:51:55 pm »
Yes, thank you tinhead for the extra technical information.Anyone tried to upgrade to the DS1152E? It may be able to be done with the serial cable and hyperterminal. Serial # needs to be changed to  DS1EF**********  I believe.

    Cyclenorthman
 

Offline torch

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #676 on: April 28, 2011, 01:56:08 am »
Serial # needs to be changed to  DS1EF**********  I believe.

No reason it can't be done with USB -- see the very first post of this thread, section 5B.

As for the serial number: IIRC, the DS1EF prefix came from a DS1152E manual someone found. However, someone else theorized that the "D" in the original 1052 serial number set the bit that enables the 50MHz filter -- hexD = bin1101. This was based on the serial numbers of the 4 known machines (DS1052D, DS1052E, DS1102D and DS1102E). The 50MHz machines both had a the third rightmost bit set to 1, the 100MHz machines had 0, like so:

Model        b/w     serial         bitwise
DS1052D     50        C             1 1 00
DS1052E     50        D             1 1 01
DS1102D    100       B              1 0 11
DS1102E     100       A             1 0 10

(The second part of the supposition was that the second rightmost bit set the 2ns option)

hex F = 1 1 11

If the earlier theories are correct, you would end up with the 2ns option, but limited to 50MHz bandwidth.

The original HW hack was to simply remove a capacitor from the 50MHz filter, leaving a scope with the higher bandwidth, but no 2ns setting and, IIRC, disabling the 20MHz filter too. If Rigol used a different filter with the DS1152E, then the F designation in the serial number fits the theory. I don't know of anyone who has actually opened up a DS1152E and looked -- I think I remember reading something about that model only being sold to educational institutions.

It was suggested by someone else to leave the serial number and just change the model number, but I don't think that worked -- IIRC, the change doesn't survive a reboot. I think this requires someone who has done the HW hack already and has the capability of doing the proper tests to confirm whether or not that will work.

I don't remember why it was decided that the 2ns option was 2nd and the 50MHz was 3rd. If the order is actually the other way around, and if the function of each is inverted, then F should work quite nicely -- second and third bits would both be ones.

The question I have is: would making the DS1052E think it is a DS1152E actually accomplish anything? If there is only one high-frequency filter, and that is already disabled, what more can be added? A 500ps resolution? From what tinhead says, it seems unlikely the amplitude will become any more accurate.





 

Offline flolic

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #677 on: April 28, 2011, 05:41:44 am »
Tinhead, thank you very much for this clarification!  :)
When I catch some time I will try to change few resistors on my unit, and see is there any change in performance.
 

Offline ed06

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #678 on: April 28, 2011, 12:19:48 pm »
ed06, have you taken a look at page 1 of this thread?
Yes. I have a version of SP2
 

Offline Slasher006

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #679 on: April 28, 2011, 01:58:30 pm »
I have successfully patched my device. :-D version 2.05 SP2 -> 2.02.02 -> 2.05 SP2. Thanks to all, and special thanks to A Hellene, great work you save me 200€. :-)
 

Offline torch

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #680 on: April 28, 2011, 03:52:32 pm »
I am trying to answer my own question:

would making the DS1052E think it is a DS1152E actually accomplish anything? If there is only one high-frequency filter, and that is already disabled, what more can be added? A 500ps resolution? From what tinhead says, it seems unlikely the amplitude will become any more accurate.

Googling "DS1152E" results in a stack of Chinese language websites, but nothing in English other than the speculations on discussion boards. Google translates the specs to:

Quote
DS1000E Series is a high-performance indicators, the economy of the digital oscilloscope, is widely used in education and training, production line testing and enterprises in various fields of scientific research DS1152E-EDU  digital oscilloscope provide 2 analog channels, 150MHz Bandwidth, 1 GSa / s real-time sampling rate and 25GSa / s equivalent sample rate; 16-channel logic analysis.

1. Provide 2 analog channels, the maximum bandwidth of 100MHz, 1 GSa / s real-time sampling rate and 25GSa / s equivalent sampling rate;
2. 5.7-inch QVGA (320 × 240), 64k color TFT color LCD display
3.16-channel logic analyzer features, support mixed-beam test and measurement code and data storage
4. Edge, pulse width, slope, video, alternate triggering
5. Rich interface configuration: Standard USB Host, USB Device, RS-232, P / F Out, optional USB-GPIB

The same specs appear on multiple websites. Ok, let's assume that the "maximum bandwidth of 100MHz" is a typo that has simply been copied from one website to another. However, the "16-channel logic analyzer" would seem to preclude this as an upgrade option for us -- IIRC, one fellow who tried to change his model to a 1102D (with the LA) ran into a mess of trouble. I can't see any input for this on the front panel images though. Can anybody clear this up for sure?
 

Offline Chet T16

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #681 on: April 28, 2011, 04:44:13 pm »
"Updata Successed"  ;D

My Rigol arrived from dealextreme today with 02.05 SP2 and its now running 02.04 SP1 as a DS1102E.

Any word on whether 02.05 SP2 is an improvement on 02.04 SP1 or is it still unknown?

Thanks to everyone for all the info in this thread!
Chet
Paid Electron Wrestler
 

Offline joh

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #682 on: April 28, 2011, 09:11:50 pm »
ed06, have you taken a look at page 1 of this thread?
Yes. I have a version of SP2

So using page 1 and the massive input from A Hellene on page 43 will you be able to complete an update to your scope?
 

Offline joh

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #683 on: April 28, 2011, 09:13:59 pm »
Although over my head I am really enjoying the discussion triggered by @tinhead & @torch.
 

Offline ed06

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #684 on: April 29, 2011, 11:30:59 am »
ed06, have you taken a look at page 1 of this thread?
Yes. I have a version of SP2

So using page 1 and the massive input from A Hellene on page 43 will you be able to complete an update to your scope?
Thank you. Later try. It is still scary))
 

Offline torch

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #685 on: April 29, 2011, 01:06:58 pm »
Preamble:

I have been riding on the coattails of others here because I don't have the knowledge or skill to come up with these hacks. But I want to give back and the one thing I can do is be a guinea pig and test something. As far as I can tell, while one or two have changed the model to the 1152, no one has actually tried it with the serial number change too.

Short story:
I just changed mine to a DS1152E (the 150MHz version), with serial number F. It works, and I still have the 2ns/div setting. It did not brick the scope, everything seems to OK, I'm running the self-calibration right now.

Long story:

I don't think it will make any difference. I've spent the last day or two pouring over the old posts and threads on this topic. From what I can see others have found, the 1102 hack unlocks the b/w filter on the inputs and once unlocked, nothing else can speed things up any further. The hardware has a roll-off around 140MHz to 160MHz (depending on who did the testing, so probably depending on the manufacturing tolerances of any individual scope). So any model with unlocked inputs can be used to measure up to 150MHz frequencies, with reasonable representation of amplitude,

HOWEVER

That only applies in real time when using a single channel only with the acquisition set for short memory, so that the Sa Rate (appears when you press the Horizontal Menu) is set to 1 GSa. Enabling either halves the sample rate. Enabling both quarters the sample rate. So even though the inputs can pass the signal with reasonable accuracy at 150MHz, the scope cannot capture and display them accurately because it cannot take enough samples per cycle to accurately display the waveform above ~100MHz (at 500KSa) or ~50MHz (at 250KSa).

This can be overcome somewhat when measuring a repetitive waveform by averaging over at least 4 cycles, (which will not catch glitches) or displaying dots instead of vectors and enabling persistence (which might catch glitches).

Nothing in this latest model number change enables a higher sample rate. The spec sheets (as translated by Google) show the same sample rates as the others and I can now confirm that the scope itself reports the same sample rates too.

So, go ahead and hack the scope to think it's a DS1152E if you really want to. You will then be able to lay claim to having a 150MHz scope -- on paper. But remember that every time you flash your FW, there is a risk of bricking the scope, even though you have all the right stuff and follow the procedure to the letter -- random cosmic rays or radio interference or who knows what can sometimes happen (someone already bricked their 2.05.02 scope using the latest hacked firmware. Fortunately Dimitry came to his rescue!). Given all of the above, I really don't think you will gain anything by this further modification.

Again, I am no expert. I am merely summarizing all that I have read and may have mis-interpreted something! If I am wrong on any point, please feel free to jump in and correct me. I wish I had access to the equipment to properly test these things, but I don't.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 01:10:51 pm by torch »
 

Offline torch

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #686 on: April 29, 2011, 02:10:10 pm »
I may have found a problem, or a bug, or something. The digital filter now has a lower limit of 250MHz and an upper limit of 12.38GHz. That can't be right!

 

Offline dimlow

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #687 on: April 29, 2011, 02:17:21 pm »
Guys, the serial number means nothing, i made this clear when i first posted the hack to 1152 its all on the model number.

BUT, and a BIG BUT! when changing the model number you must the change the serial number or the model number change will not be stored in the scope when you cycle the power. Changing the serial number is just a trigger for the scope to store both the model and serial permanently. The Serial number means nothing to the firmware. my scope is hacked to 1152 and it still has the original serial number that came with the scope.

@torch the digital filter limits, change depending on the sample rate you have chosen.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 02:22:53 pm by dimlow »
 

Offline torch

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #688 on: April 29, 2011, 03:05:10 pm »
Guys, the serial number means nothing, i made this clear when i first posted the hack to 1152 its all on the model number.

BUT, and a BIG BUT! when changing the model number you must the change the serial number or the model number change will not be stored in the scope when you cycle the power. Changing the serial number is just a trigger for the scope to store both the model and serial permanently. The Serial number means nothing to the firmware.

I remember the post. I wasn't sure if you actually tried changing the 'B' to an 'F' or not -- it didn't sound like you had.

Quote
my scope is hacked to 1152 and it still has the original serial number that came with the scope.

You are using the original "D" in the serial number? Oh that I completely missed! Polossatik are you reading this??? It may mean a change to the directions on page 1!

Quote
@torch the digital filter limits, change depending on the sample rate you have chosen.
Yes, I realize that -- and I should note that was on the 2ns setting. But why would I want a bandpass filter that starts at 250MHz on a scope that can't accurately see anything above 150MHz? Maybe I miss the point -- I'm still learning here.
 

Offline saturation

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #689 on: April 29, 2011, 04:07:05 pm »
Thanks torch for summarizing months, if not years of posts.  I agree fully.  It should help others get up to speed who are new to the Rigol 1052e.

I forget specifically the details of sampling rate, but its like 1Gs/s for channel one at 16 k record length, 500 Ms/s if 1Meg record length is selected.  I'm unsure ??? if using channel 2 alone is only 500Ms/s at 16k or 1M memory length, but definitely if you use channels 1&2 together its 500Ms/s a 16k memory length, and 250 Ms/s if using channel 1&2 and selecting 1M memory length ... but it limits each channel to 512K per channel.


...
HOWEVER

That only applies in real time when using a single channel only with the acquisition set for short memory, so that the Sa Rate (appears when you press the Horizontal Menu) is set to 1 GSa. Enabling either halves the sample rate. Enabling both quarters the sample rate. So even though the inputs can pass the signal with reasonable accuracy at 150MHz, the scope cannot capture and display them accurately because it cannot take enough samples per cycle to accurately display the waveform above ~100MHz (at 500KSa) or ~50MHz (at 250KSa).

« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 04:08:37 pm by saturation »
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline torch

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #690 on: April 29, 2011, 08:59:28 pm »
So using page 1 and the massive input from A Hellene on page 43 will you be able to complete an update to your scope?

I think page 1 is up to date now. However, if you are confused about all the various tools you need to d/l from various sources, I compiled them all into this one zip file: http://picturehosting.verhey.org/rigol/DS1052Eupgr_tools.zip. I included both 2.04SP1 and, in case you feel you want the latest, 2.05SP2. There's a text file with the MD5 hashes. The only thing missing from that file is the software that came on your Rigol CD.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 01:03:41 am by torch »
 

Offline MickM

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #691 on: April 30, 2011, 12:52:30 am »
Hello Torch;
  your zip file gives a "not found" and a 404.

Mick M.
 

Offline torch

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #692 on: April 30, 2011, 01:05:04 am »
Try it now -- the period at the end of the sentence was included into the link by the forum software. I think it's fixed now.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #693 on: April 30, 2011, 01:09:18 am »
mind the "dot", dont include the "dot". the easiest way to avoid error is use this template ["url=your address here"]your caption here["/url"] , and dont include the double quotes, change the red text appropriately. or if your lazy enough (just like me somtime), hit space before the dot. i rest my case ;)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 01:15:07 am by Mechatrommer »
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Offline clonecrp

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #694 on: May 01, 2011, 10:29:32 pm »
Hi All!

An exciting thread ....

I have HardVersion = 03. Currently upgraded to 00.02.04 SP1. Any advantage or dis-advantage go to 00.02.05.01.00 ( 02.05 SP1 ) upgrade ?

Please advise...

Thanks!
Doug
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #695 on: May 01, 2011, 11:19:30 pm »
i advice you to stick to the older version as much as possible unless you got issue. i still got 2.02 in my scope, alot older than anything discussed here recently and i got no issue at all. but it might not work with newer HW board version. people complaint about flickering screen with the latest 2.05 FW. but maybe someone else can give you better picture on this.
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline A Hellene

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #696 on: May 01, 2011, 11:35:07 pm »
Hi, Doug,

In addition to Mechatrommer's advice (see this message) I recommend you to stay with v2.04 SP1; I downgraded from 2.05 SP2, myself. Additionally, all firmware revisions after v2.04 SP1 and before 2.05 SP2 have been reported to be buggy, locking up the scopes under certain circumstances until reboot.


-George
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 12:10:08 am by A Hellene »
Hi! This is George; and I am three and a half years old!
(This was one of my latest realisations, now in my early fifties!...)
 

Offline clonecrp

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #697 on: May 02, 2011, 04:07:05 am »
Thanks Guys !

Will keep @ 00.02.04 SP1 then ... Upgrade process on my 2nd scope was almost as slick (actually better) as the first one based on Dave's original illustration ... did it w/RS232 then ... USB .... SLICK  8) !

So what's next for my Hantek 100Mhz ... any ideas?


Thanks!
Doug
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline torch

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #699 on: May 03, 2011, 01:10:41 am »
I put together the high-speed pulse generator mentioned earlier (http://www.i9t.net/fast-pulse/fast-pulse.html). Actually, I had some problems getting it to run right until I read the actual app note that he took that circuit from (http://www.mit.edu/~6.331/an47fa.pdf).

Anyway, it's still on a breadboard, so not quite as fast as it should be if the app note is followed, but it seems to be putting out a distinct pulse now anyway. Here's a screen shot of the pulse:


Now, I don't know if this actually means anything, but earlier when I was trying to get the pulse to work, I saved this one too:


BTW: the amplitude plummets at 250MB/s sample rate (ie: 2 channels and long memory). Not so bad with one or the other (either one drops it down to 500MB/s), but still noticeable.

EDIT: I just realized I cut the start of the pulse off on that shot, so the rise time isn't shown, however it was about 6ns (with either long memory or 2 channels, it was about 3ns)

Oh, and finally, a shot of the boot screen:
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 01:22:15 am by torch »
 


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