Author Topic: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide  (Read 1065640 times)

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Offline jrag

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #650 on: April 22, 2011, 11:04:38 am »
Hi EEVbloguers, just yesterday I had my Rigol DS1052E with the latest 2.05 SP2 firmware, and now I have the Rigol DS1052E possessed with the spirit of a DS1102E  :P , thanks A Hellene for the amazing job, and thanks to all the others contributers.
I've attached the hacked 2.05 SP2 to 2.02 SP2, and the original 2.05 SP2 for you to update after the hack.
Everything you need is in page one https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=553.0 .

Hash (of the firmwares, not the .zip or .rar):
2.05SP2_to_2.02SP2
MD5: f7c861576fe9efeaf08c3e449f3527f0

00.02.05.02_original
MD5: 9c28690d8d5a5690b7340fda943f5549
<8>
 

Offline torch

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #651 on: April 22, 2011, 11:53:15 am »
I have a scope with the 2.05 SP2 FW so I am going to try George's excellent hack. 

Once I've done the hack how do I get back to 2.05 SP2, or any other particular fw? 

Does anyone have a list of links to the various known good firmwares? 

Can I down load my present firmware out of the scope before the hack? 

I searched Rigol's site and did not see a link to latest firmwares.

thanks for all of the excellent and interesting work

2.04SP1 Was first posted by d0ss here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=553.msg19908;topicseen#msg19908 (I'll attach another copy to this for your convenience). It has widely been held to be the best option for HW58 models, as later versions introduced bugs in the triggering software -- presumably because Rigol rushed later ones out to try and defeat the hack without adequate testing.

That said, there have not been any  reports of bugs in the latest (2.05 SP2) firmware. It may or may not be equal to 2.04 SP1. Your choice which one to try.

The md5 for the attached file (after extraction) is bcf73565352391935f3a9651d30776ee.

Carefully review the very first post in this thread, which has been updated with each new development for the upgrade procedure. But basically the routine is to downgrade to 2.02 SP2, Hack the model code to 1102 with shafri's script tool and a USB cable, then upgrade the firmware to 2.04 SP1 and pat yourself on the back for getting a 100mHz scope for half price.  :D

 

Offline A Hellene

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #652 on: April 22, 2011, 03:43:09 pm »
I re-edited my message and attached the firmware, as well.

Quote from: A Hellene
[EDIT]: 2.05 SP2 to 2.02 SP2 (v2.05.02.00 to v2.02.02.00) downgrade firmware attatched!
This is what I should have done in the first place, since I did not foresee the confusion I would stir by firstly posting the HEX string only and, right after that, attaching the *.header file alone... So, here is the whole deal!
Sorry for the confusion, guys; and enjoy that piece of code!


-George
« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 03:45:05 pm by A Hellene »
Hi! This is George; and I am three and a half years old!
(This was one of my latest realisations, now in my early fifties!...)
 

Offline joh

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #653 on: April 22, 2011, 04:03:01 pm »
You have earned lots of slack should you need to call on it.

Many thanks George, and those who's shoulders you stood upon.

Take care, John.
 

Offline A Hellene

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #654 on: April 22, 2011, 04:13:44 pm »
LOL!!!

Thank you, John!
Hi! This is George; and I am three and a half years old!
(This was one of my latest realisations, now in my early fifties!...)
 

Offline Polossatik

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #655 on: April 22, 2011, 05:25:01 pm »
I re-edited my message and attached the firmware, as well.

Quote from: A Hellene
[EDIT]: 2.05 SP2 to 2.02 SP2 (v2.05.02.00 to v2.02.02.00) downgrade firmware attatched!
This is what I should have done in the first place, since I did not foresee the confusion I would stir by firstly posting the HEX string only and, right after that, attaching the *.header file alone... So, here is the whole deal!
Sorry for the confusion, guys; and enjoy that piece of code!


-George

updated the first post with little linky to your post :)

cheerio!
Real Circuit design time in minutes= (2 + Nscopes) Testim + (40 +120 Kbrewski) Nfriends

Testim = estimated time in minutes Nscopes= number of oscilloscopes present Kbrewski = linear approx of the nonlinear beer effect Nfriends = number of circuit design friends present
 

Offline A Hellene

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #656 on: April 22, 2011, 05:55:12 pm »
Thank you, Polossatik!

By the way, the header I compiled can trigger an update event from every known firmware revision known, up to date; it does not work only with last one (which now is v2.05 SP2 / 02.05.02.00)!


Cheers,
-George

« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 06:00:27 pm by A Hellene »
Hi! This is George; and I am three and a half years old!
(This was one of my latest realisations, now in my early fifties!...)
 

Offline Polossatik

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #657 on: April 22, 2011, 06:24:31 pm »
yeah, I know, no time now to rewrite stuff, will do soon :)
Real Circuit design time in minutes= (2 + Nscopes) Testim + (40 +120 Kbrewski) Nfriends

Testim = estimated time in minutes Nscopes= number of oscilloscopes present Kbrewski = linear approx of the nonlinear beer effect Nfriends = number of circuit design friends present
 

Offline Cyclenorthman

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00.02.05.02.00  Hack attack? I would like to hear from anyone if and how they did it and what problems or bugs may have happened. There is so much information on this and so many OS versions to deal with and reading is not my strongest point plus the time to try and take it all in. Also, I am more of a hardware guy than SW.Thanks to "A H****" for your input.

 Thanks in advance,

  CNM
 

Online slburris

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #659 on: April 24, 2011, 09:20:55 pm »
I've kinda lost track here, are people modding up to a DS1152E, the
mythical 150Mhz scope now?   If so, is that actually providing a measurable
benefit over the 100Mhz hack?

Scott
 

Online Mechatrommer

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #660 on: April 25, 2011, 03:49:26 am »
I've kinda lost track here, are people modding up to a DS1152E, the
mythical 150Mhz scope now?   If so, is that actually providing a measurable
benefit over the 100Mhz hack?
Scott
the thing is... there are posts/thread indicating they've successfully mod theirs to 150MHz version, but with lack of other informations such as performance improvement compared to 100MHz hack (vertical attenuation, ns/div etc), makes this 1102E hack still more popular, due to more support, involvement and substantial in the above said performance. there also report(s) on 1052e bw limit from experts here (indicating 100++MHz -3dB performance), but that wont be improved with 150MHz hack, afaik. i also would like to upgrade to 150MHz version, but having a bad experience earlier, i would not risk it anymore. or just maybe i'm as lost as you are and missing something in between.
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline fminne

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #661 on: April 25, 2011, 05:51:33 am »
The hack which is proposed now, is able to downgrade the 00.02.05.02.00 (02.05 SP2) or earlier towards the 00.02.02.02 (02.02 SP2). In the revision 02.02 SP2, one can change the model and serial number to whatever you like. Most people rename their DS1052E towards DS1102E with the according change in the serial number (DS1ED..… has to become DS1EB…..). Use the tool of Shafri, as this prevents you from doing something wrong!
Afterwards you have to upgrade your scoop towards a good working firmware. Before, people would do the upgrade towards 02.04 SP1, as this was the best and most stable downgradable firmware. But now one can put it in 02.05 SP2 since you can again undo your changes from this firmware-revision and no bugs were reported on this firmware.
Don’t forget to calibrate your scoop after you have upgraded it towards 02.04 SP1 or higher (probably 02.05 SP2).
I hope this clarifies a lot.
If you do not want to read everything, just read page 1, everything is very well explained by Polossatik. For the latest firmware, you have to read the forum, starting from https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=553.msg42404#msg42404, where A Hellene pops with the crack of the code!
Greetings, Frank.
 

Offline torch

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #662 on: April 25, 2011, 07:27:51 am »
Going back to the roots of this hack, wherein it was discovered that the only difference H/W between the 1052 and the 1102 was a bandpass filter that could be by-passed, it seems unlikely that there could be any additional performance increase with this H/W.

Changing the model and serial number in F/W does two things: first, it bypasses the filter in software and second, it makes the 2ns time base visible. Some people have taken measurements of the actual rise time performance with various leads and suggest that while the rise time performance is consistent with a 150MHz version (eg rise time <1.6ns), the scope itself is not physically capable of capturing data at a higher rate, having a 100MHz quartz clock crystal. One fellow measured the 3db error point at 75MHz on the modded scope with 300MHz leads.

So, from what I can make out, it appears their is probably a H/W difference between the DS1052E/DS1102E and the DS1152E. But I don't know if anyone has actually taken them both apart and compared them side-by-side. In fact, I don't know if anyone has ever actually gotten their hands on a real DS1152E.
 

Offline joh

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #663 on: April 26, 2011, 07:33:16 am »
Successful update, many thanks to everyone involved in this. Special thanks to George and Drieg. It was reassuring to know that we had a recovery path through Drieg if the software upgrade went bad.

After calibration, I also needed to adjust the compensation on my probes slightly.

JohnO
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 08:38:37 am by joh »
 

Offline tinhead

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #664 on: April 26, 2011, 08:33:16 pm »
the scope itself is not physically capable of capturing data at a higher rate, having a 100MHz quartz clock crystal.

said who ? 100MHz quarz clock have nothing to do with scope capability !

So, from what I can make out, it appears their is probably a H/W difference between the DS1052E/DS1102E and the DS1152E. But I don't know if anyone has actually taken them both apart and compared them side-by-side. In fact, I don't know if anyone has ever actually gotten their hands on a real DS1152E.

you don't need to see DS1152E, Instek or Hantek/Tekway are using exact the same input cisrcuits, yuo can learn from them.
Actually there is, in HF compensation circuit, RC combination which need to match the scope bw freq. and there are
these 4 resistors between both op-amps in input circuit - they need to have lower values as they do in org. 1102/1052.
Evt. the input resistor need to be smaller, haven't ever measured in Rigol but i assume it.

For trigger circuit two resistors - input one and in the middle of the trigger circuit one, again no magic.
I don't want to be human! I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter ...
I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me.
 

Offline torch

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #665 on: April 26, 2011, 09:13:16 pm »
@ tinhead,-

You may well be correct -- I am no expert, I have not even taken my scope apart. I was referring to what I've read elsewhere, written by people who have taken their scope apart and looked and seem to know more than I.

A question: if one was to start changing these resistors, what effect would that have on the accuracy of the unit? I understand that calibration data unique to each scope is established at the factory and stored in the flash rom, and that if this data is changed the scope will no longer be accurate. Would the inverse not only be true -- would modifying the hardware require a modification to the calibration data?
 

Offline therian

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #666 on: April 26, 2011, 10:45:44 pm »
I have original DS1102E, lets find out if there is hardware difference, you can run test on DS1052E mode to DS1152E and I can check it on DS1102E mode to DS1152E  and compare if there is significant difference (I have stable square wave generator on 10 and 50Mhz and stable sine generator from .01 to 170 Mhz )
 

Offline tinhead

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #667 on: April 27, 2011, 12:49:56 am »
I was referring to what I've read elsewhere, written by people who have taken their scope apart and looked and seem to know more than I.

sure, but remember, most ppl don't know what they doing (not calibrated generators, wrong cables, wrong measure techs and so on).
A 1GSs scope can do "accurate" single shot for much higher freq than 75Mhz - as long the total clock jitter x 2.5
is within one sample cycle (let's say the analog freq. response is flat).

However, if you study the Rigol design, you will see that the FPGA is too small to deliver 16k short memory, which
tells me that multiple cycles are taken to get the 16k - this can result in some additional "inaccuracy" because of
the jitter between 4 clock cycles.

I haven't traced clock pins, but afaik ADCs clocks are coming from not-dedicated pll clk out pins (increasing the jitter by 2).
So let's calculate worst case (non dedicated clock pins) for Rigol = 650ps pin jitter + 100ps PLL phase shft jitter x 2.5 = 1.875ns per cycle.
So the max. usable freq. will be 186Mhz per cycle, we should additionally add 3 x 100ps potential jitter between cycles
(4 cycles = 3 cycle diffs). This give us 2.625ns, so 1/max jitter x 0.35 = 133Mhz max. measured frequency before the
jitter becomes relevant (actually it is always important but let's talk about limits only).

As you can see, from design point of view DS1152E is above these specs, giving some errors above 133MHz
(this is now calculated for input clock with 30ps jitter). In real word there are other aspects reducing the max. single shot freq.
(or better said the accuracy caused by waveform distortion).

This is of course for single shot, if you do avg. sampling the error will be reduced by the firmware itself, so for sure the
150Mhz (DS1152E) are possible within the DSO accuracy specs.


A question: if one was to start changing these resistors, what effect would that have on the accuracy of the unit? I understand that calibration data unique to each scope is established at the factory and stored in the flash rom, and that if this data is changed the scope will no longer be accurate. Would the inverse not only be true -- would modifying the hardware require a modification to the calibration data?

The manufacturer calibration data is supposed to define the differences between signal amplitudes and skew time between ADCs.
Of course it is unique just because of the pure fact that all components have "unique" tolerance range.
This data will be then used during self-calibration to correct the measured results. In principle any modification need changes
to the manufacture calibration data, however in real world if you replace 1% resistors by 0.1% (with lower values to match freq. response for HF) the potential difference will be lower than it was in worst case before. This is of course only true if your DSO was using real 1% quality parts, if there was already bigger diff let say between one of the gain resistors and the other once then a new set
of 0.1% resistors will made your DSO unusable (just because the DSO was calibrated already with "bad" parts).
So yes, there is potential risk, it is always a good idea to mark all replaced part just in case you have to resolder them back.
That's for the op-amps resistors.

For the input resistors, they actually changing rise time response, not really that important (unless you need higher accuracy
above 150MHz). I did tested many values (and did re-calibration each time,which cost low of time) to improve my Tekway,
the diff is mariginal, not worth playing on Rigol (as the firmware is not allwoing more than 150MHz anyway).

The RC circuit in HF path is mostly responsible for compensation response, so every change there require changes to
the compensation settings. It is always a good idea to change first this part and recalibrate compensation before
you starts with other modifications.
<- ups, i see now that this part even don't exist in Rigol input circuit, so don't care about too.

The trigger reponse can be regulated with one resistor middle of the trigger circuit, however the value used
in DS1102E is good enough up to 150Mhz anyway, so don't care about.

So let's sumirize: yes, we can (oh no, not this again) as long we follow some rules. I did spend many hours modyfing my DSOs,
but only because i was looking for good flat response up to 200MHz. Without these mods the response was still less than 1%
away from original 200MHz (now talking about soft-hacked Tekway from 100 to 200Mhz), generaly spoken soft hacks are
in principle good enough for most ppl (i'm one of these ppl who are doing tweeks to add 20hp to 1000hp engine)

The major problem with all these cheap DSOs are the "money savings" things, like not enough caps (Tekway),
high ripple PSU, bad overall design (sry Rigol but i don't like the 7cm distance between ADC input and PSU - and nothing between),
high jitter clock coming from FPGA i/o pins (all manuf.), not the best PCB design (like via's in signal path - again Rigol) even
sometimes insuficient/bad manufacturer calibration (uni-t) or ugly firmware errors (all cheap DSO manuf. except Instek)

Some of these things can be fixed, other not (unless you spend a lot of money for jitter attenuators - but then you can directly
buy Agilent DSOX). Some will never change, just because cheap products will be not really supported after they sold
(firmware bugs never fixed).

For most applications such cheap DSO soft-modified to the max. of what the manufacturer calculated (so for Rigol 150Mhz)
is good enough, don't forget an DSO is not high accuarcy measurment device. If you need more, you will have to spend some
money in the one or other way (time/equipment/parts necessary to modify cheap DSO vs. better quality DSO).
I don't want to be human! I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter ...
I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me.
 

Offline flolic

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #668 on: April 27, 2011, 06:14:41 am »
I have original DS1102E, lets find out if there is hardware difference,

We concluded long time ago that there is no (hardware) difference between 1052E and 1102E.

Picture of mine 1102E:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=30.msg589#msg589

Question for tinhead. Can you please mark resistors in front end responsible for BW? I know for (and already changed) 4 resistors around diff. amplifier, but what are those in the input and trigger stage? You can freely use my picture (http://img21.imageshack.us/f/rigolfrontend.jpg/ ; http://img21.imageshack.us/f/rigolds1102e.jpg/;)
 

Offline Cyclenorthman

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changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E
« Reply #669 on: April 27, 2011, 08:51:49 pm »
 Hi Folks,

First of all I would like to thanks everyone for the information and help on this project.

When I first tried this I had a hard time getting the scope to read the USB stick.I started with a 02.05.02  HW ver 58 unit.
Finally got it to read the downgrade to 02.02.01(?) but my usb interface would not work ,error message 5,but since I was at 02.02.01 I tried the serial port cable instead of the usb using hyperterminal and it worked. But I was greedy and tried to upgrade to a DS1152.Didn't work,lost model# and serial # ,display was a mess(needed a recal?) Finally was able to get it back to a DS1052E with ser # and tried upgrade to DS1102E and it worked.Recal'ed scope   and during checking it out I had a 2nS time available. I have not tried to measure a signal at that frequency, I don't need it that fast but from what I have seen I may have to change some HW to make the unit process a signal at that speed. I don't know what frequency a 2nS would serve but the unit works well so far.I know I made some mistakes along the way but I had to modify the modification information that I had.If any of you are having problems with this think about your moves and keep going forward,you may get your unit upgraded.

 Thanks,

 CNM
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 09:05:15 pm by Cyclenorthman »
 

Online Mechatrommer

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #670 on: April 27, 2011, 09:10:04 pm »
...but my usb interface would not work ,error message 5...
if you are talking about shafri's tool, error 5 is "invalid procedure call or argument". its probably you dont have ni-visa "visa32.dll" driver properly installed in your system.
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline Cyclenorthman

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #671 on: April 27, 2011, 09:24:18 pm »
 Hi Mechatrommer,

 Could be but I used  shafri's tool the day before and it worked but made no changes to the scope at that time. I'm not an expert at this by any means but am glad I worked it out.Mayby I'll try to reload  the needed file and see if that brings shafri's back online.


 CNM
 

Offline torch

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E
« Reply #672 on: April 27, 2011, 09:26:38 pm »
during checking it out I had a 2Us time available. I have not tried to measure a signal at that frequency, I don't need it that fast but from what I have seen I may have to change some HW to make the unit process a signal at that speed.

Have no fear: your DS1052E is now the equivalent of the 100MHz DS1102E. No hardware changes required.

The only question is how much more is it capable of -- could it be made into a 150MHz DS1152E?
 

Offline tinhead

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #673 on: April 27, 2011, 09:56:56 pm »

Question for tinhead. Can you please mark resistors

sure

red  - that's the input resistors, each chan and trigger, they resonsible for rise time/HF response. Hantek is using for 200Mhz models everywhere
22Ohm, Rigol seems to use quite high value in the trigger input (61.9Ohm) and much lower in chan input (13.3Ohm)

blue - that's the opamps resistors, Rigol is using afaik only one combination, Tekway/Hantek values depends on bw

R1=R2=R3=R4
 Hantek / Tekway rev 1.0.5
    100MHz - 301R

 Hantek rev 1.0.3
    200MHz - 280R
    100MHz - 301R
     60MHz  - 365R

 Tekway rev 1.0.2
    200MHz - 280R
    100MHz - 365R

 Rigol (1052 and 1102) - 365R

RP1=RP2
 Hantek / Tekway rev 1.0.5
    100MHz - 39R
 Hantek rev 1.0.3
    200MHz - 33R
    100MHz - 39R
     60MHz  - 47R

 Tekway rev 1.0.2
    200MHz - 33R
    100MHz - 47R
 
Rigol (1052 and 1102) - 33R

green - these two caps and varicap are known, there is nothing to change anymore, 160pf for caps and varicap like BBY65-02V is typical. They doing some bw reduction, but the values (in combination with Opamp Z and these resistors) are chosed to not block HF under ~250MHz so no need to change there anything. Rigol, exact like Instek/Hantek/Tekway are doing the bw magic in the firmware, the first opamp can be used to reduce HF gain (so you will not get much more that 150MHz, but you can optimize the frequency response to be more flat)

yellow - that's the RC combination responsible for trigger response/sensibility. Resistors are on Hantek/Tekway 200MHz models 82R and 100/60MHz models 100R,
however i missed to measure the cap so you can't really compare with your Rigol now.

gray - this is new for me, RC combination directly in input, that's i would say 15Ohm (?) and some pf. I would normally expect this RC "snubber" within the
compensation unit (right below the trim cap), but Rigol seems to have nothing there. Let me guess, the cap is about 56-62pF

I marked additionally the signal path for LF (blue) and HF (red) on the picture.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 10:02:29 pm by tinhead »
I don't want to be human! I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter ...
I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me.
 

Offline A Hellene

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #674 on: April 27, 2011, 10:25:54 pm »
This cross-reference information is priceless, dear tinhead!
Thank you very much!


-George
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 10:37:02 pm by A Hellene »
Hi! This is George; and I am three and a half years old!
(This was one of my latest realisations, now in my early fifties!...)
 


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