eevBLAB 111 - The TMA Banning x1/x10 Switchable Probes?

[EEVblog]

The Test and Measurement Alliance have announced an effective ban on x1/x10 switchable scope probes with all new oscilloscopes going forward from Q3 2023. Do you agree?
Signatories include practically every oscilloscope manufacturer! Keysight, Tektronix, Rohde & Schwarz, Lecroy, GW Instek, Siglent, Rigol, National Instruments, Hantek, Owon, Micsig and PicoScope.

[ssander]

Early April Fools 

[Psi]

Early April Fools 

Could be, but an April Fools should make you feel like a fool for believing something that you later see is pretty ridiculous.
This is way too typical of how big business actually operate in the world today. It's way to believable and not foolish to believe it's true.

The arguments all make sense for why x1/x10 probes are a bit shit, and they are.
But I can't help but feel that their motivations are not as honest as they appear and not being done to benefit the user.

It has a bad smell to it, fells like all the companies in the industry conspiring to all stop selling x1/x10 probes in order to force people into paying for both an x1 and a x10 probe.

[WizardTim]

After you published this video I received this leaked photo from an anonymous source, it appears to show a pre-production prototype of the unreleased Keysight N2140B 200 MHz 10:1 non-switchable passive probe, presumably this will replace the N2140A. The anonymous source also claims they have a patent pending for this design.

[EEVblog]

Behold, my finest work.
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxAyERbIH0Z8SZHsi9ggpz_C5a61sZAHFc

[tszaboo]

Not to mention a x10 probe will amplify the signal, so if you are measuring 230V for example, than a x10 probe will make thousands of volts, which is super dangerous. Good that they ban it.

[RAPo]

if we get two (a separate 1x and 10x) probes for the price of one I agree.

[AVGresponding]

Every bloody year, because of the time difference, you get me, you barstid!

[MarkL]

The switchable probes should burn in hell.  I agree with the technical leadership of TMA:

  https://tm-alliance.org/about-us/

Who supplies a plain x1 probe anyway?  Manufacturers who charge for front-end repairs?

[Exosia]

Every bloody year, because of the time difference, you get me, you barstid!

 

[Black Phoenix]

Every bloody year, because of the time difference, you get me, you barstid!

 

Good one Dave:

https://www.whois.com/whois/eevblog.com

https://www.whois.com/whois/tm-alliance.org

Registered in 2 days ago, mostly same info as Eevblog. This was one of the best pranks I saw in a while. Not bad, not bad at all...

[madires]

Not to mention a x10 probe will amplify the signal, so if you are measuring 230V for example, than a x10 probe will make thousands of volts, which is super dangerous. Good that they ban it.

I have a nice x100 probe which is great for testing ESD and insulation ralated things. 100V in - 10kV out. Much cheaper than one of those special ESD zappers or meggers.

[Swainster]

I've gone through my collection and chucked every switchable probe into the fire - I couldn't bear the thought of having them in my lab for even another day

[coppice]

I've gone through my collection and chucked every switchable probe into the fire - I couldn't bear the thought of having them in my lab for even another day

That's sad. It would only have taken 1 day for them to be back in favour. Fashion is so fickle.

[Per Hansson]

All joking aside Dave has done some brilliant videos on oscilloscope probes so I'll link them in here.
But I'm not sure the videos explained what the actual purpose of the x1 mode is really for?
I get that it is for seeing really small millivolt signals that would just be amplified as noise in x10 mode.
But then again that is a super niche use case as that millivolt signal must then be strong enough to not be loaded down by the probe itself.
And the signal must also be low frequency enough that the 10MHz or so bandwidth limit of the x1 probe is not a problem.
It really does seem to me like a pretty strange thing to include as standard in most cheap scopes for "beginners"
I can't think of a single time I've had a use for it, but it has been enabled inadvertently by me causing great confusion!

[switchabl]

Great, now the woke T&M companies are trying to cancel our probes. Well, they'll have to pry them from my cold, dead hands. 

[gjvdheiden]

Nice one David. I bet Chief Woz Wizard voted nay for this one, unfortunately he was in the minority.

[Neilm]

I hate switchable probes - I had a set and the switches went dodgy as F*** and kept getting totatly incorrect signals. I didn't switch them, I just guessed which mode they were in. Also, being work the penny pinchers thought that they were fine and I didn't need new ones. So sad they accidently got chopped up / lost / crushed / shredded / melted / anything else I could think of when doing some testing.

Good April fool though. The marketing wank did raise a red flag

[SiliconWizard]

https://tm-alliance.org/blog/2023-03-31/

Just looks like a list of arguments coming from manufacturers lobbying more than anything else.
I personally have very rarely used the x1 mode, but banning? We should let the market decide.

Oh, and of course, environmental reasons. Let's save the planet.

[artag]

The few switchable probes I've got are taped up to avoid the switch getting accidenatlly moved off the x10 setting.
What's even the point of x1 probes ? I've got a button on the 'scope panel if I want to reduce the bandwidth.
 

[SiliconWizard]

The few switchable probes I've got are taped up to avoid the switch getting accidenatlly moved off the x10 setting.
What's even the point of x1 probes ? I've got a button on the 'scope panel if I want to reduce the bandwidth.

In x10 the probe attenuates the input signal 10 times. Allows you to measure signals with higher amplitudes, higher input impedance (10Meg typ. vs 1Meg) and wider bandwidth (as it also divides the input capacitance by 10.)

Looks like a better deal overall? Except for the 10x attenuation, which may not be desirable for very low amplitude signals.

Without a x1 mode, you'll have to use a dedicated probe/amplifier to connect to the scope for low-amplitude signals. Of course depending on your use case, you may have already favored that to a classic probe in x1 mode anyway. So, x1 is probably not hugely useful in practice. But something to keep in mind.

[xrunner]

Who needs ChatGPT to fill up a web page with seemingly serious utterances when you have Dave around. 

[james_s]

I wish they would stop making switchable probes, or at least stop making most probes switchable. I have very, very rarely wanted to use 1X and it has screwed me up multiple times when the switch got changed without me noticing, it's only luck that has prevented that from damaging a scope. For a while now I generally glue the switch in the 10X position when I have a probe that is switchable.

[TomWinTejas]

The big hint was the address early on in the website... Hill Valley, CA.  Back to the Future!!!

[TomWinTejas]

Keysight hopped on the train as well 

https://youtu.be/JD-vjV9jKgo