EEVblab #2 - Are Electronics Hobbyists Useless?

[iampoor]

Looking at the stats on those Merlin engines is "mechanical porn"!
 I want an engine that can produce 1200kW at 3000rpm!

I could see Top Gear putting one of those in a Geo Metro. 

[Tac Eht Xilef]

Looking at the stats on those Merlin engines is "mechanical porn"!
 I want an engine that can produce 1200kW at 3000rpm!

I could see Top Gear putting one of those in a Geo Metro. 

How about a '55 Chevy?

(Personally I find the pre-war specials like the Sunbeam Slug - powered by "a pair of Sunbeam Matabele 22.4 litre aircraft engines" - more interesting, but to each their own...)

[Corporate666]

Correct, I think it is.
But once again, it ain't that black out white.
There is a huge difference between having the basic hobby level skills (that I am after) to lay out say a double sided low frequency board, and being able to lay out a professional 12 layer board with bleeding edge design rules and GHz signals integrated into a high end system with high end requirements.
Both can be described the same as "PCB design layout experience" in job descriptions.

I think that because of your personal skillset, you are probably measuring people with a very long ruler, so to speak.  I've gone to lots of conferences and training seminars and there are a LOT of gainfully employed engineers out there who aren't able to do all the things you mentioned a hobbyist should do - I don't think there's anything wrong with that really.. it depends what their job requires.  It's OK to have a lot of depth without much breadth... or even not a lot of breadth or depth - if you're able to do the job required.   I think anyone who is doing professional 12-layer PCB's running at Ghz with top level design rules are very specialized folks who would never be also expected to write firmware, hand-solder and such... they might not even be the same person doing the schematic!  I think that if someone has skills that are commercially valuable, it's probably not fair to call them a hobbyist - aren't they then a professional by definition? 

Anyway, it doesn't really matter - if you're getting resumes then clearly there is interest and hopefully you will find someone good.  It sounds like your job is very non-traditional in many ways, and there is a subset of workers who are interested in such jobs. 

[tggzzz]

Without that maths and theoretical insight, the Battle of Britain would have been lost and my German would be much better than it is.

It looks like the above statement is wrong. Just gave this a cursory look so I may be wrong instead.
It seems Stanley Hooker's designs only went in after Battle of Britain, October 1940, I think the battle was lost and won by then.
ps. Not disrespecting Stanley's designs.

Furthur very lmited research is ... ambiguous. 

The reference I quoted is unambiguously "in my favour". Wackypedia's Merlin entry can be read either way. Hooker started on the supercharger in 1938 and the major result (the two stage supercharger) was immediately post Battle of Britain (i.e. Oct 1940). But my memory and suspicion is that he contributed to the single stage supercharger used in the BoB.

Either way, it doesn't detract from my contention that theory is as important as practice; either alone is much less useful.

[(In)Sanity]

I think the bottom line here is not everyone can be as skilled as others.   In the end those that are, and those that are not still end up with good paying jobs and their employers seam to still like them.   I consider the true hobbyist to be on the high end of the skill set but not at the top professional level.   The true hobbyist vs the enthusiast will have almost as much knowledge as that seasoned professional but not quite.   I consider Dave the true hobbyist that turned professional which in my opinion produces some of the best in any given field.    The exception of course might be medicine where they frown upon hobbyist.   

I would suggest taking the most important skill sets and trying to find a candidate that can fill that more select list.    If they can juggle as well then bonus.

Jeff

[Simon]

Without that maths and theoretical insight, the Battle of Britain would have been lost and my German would be much better than it is.

It looks like the above statement is wrong. Just gave this a cursory look so I may be wrong instead.
It seems Stanley Hooker's designs only went in after Battle of Britain, October 1940, I think the battle was lost and won by then.
ps. Not disrespecting Stanley's designs.

Furthur very lmited research is ... ambiguous. 

The reference I quoted is unambiguously "in my favour". Wackypedia's Merlin entry can be read either way. Hooker started on the supercharger in 1938 and the major result (the two stage supercharger) was immediately post Battle of Britain (i.e. Oct 1940). But my memory and suspicion is that he contributed to the single stage supercharger used in the BoB.

Either way, it doesn't detract from my contention that theory is as important as practice; either alone is much less useful.

You still live under the illusion that hobbyists lack a knowledge or appreciation of theory. Do you have a high flying qualification that you guard closely in case it is spotted that maybe in practice (knowledge and practical ability) you not up to it ?

[Simon]

I think the bottom line here is not everyone can be as skilled as others.   In the end those that are, and those that are not still end up with good paying jobs and their employers seam to still like them.   

Which planet have you been living on ? the world is full of high flying "clever" people who turn out all too often to not be as skilled as was assumed. For 3 months worth of my net wages my employer was happy to have to incompetent prat built two very shoddily designed circuits, in the same time I could have done the same but much better, I then went on to spend 2 weeks fixing this post graduates fuck ups, but he is the one that is probably earning more than me and getting automatic recognition because of his post graduate degree, I'm the one that gets treated like an idiot because I don't have qualifications unless i happen to save the day and a lot of money! - Welcome to life

In this world it's what you have on paper and letters after your name and not your aptitude, enthusiasm or competence.

Too often competence and qualification get confused, a qualification does not guarantee competence, and just because your competent does not mean you got a high level qualification.

[(In)Sanity]

I think the bottom line here is not everyone can be as skilled as others.   In the end those that are, and those that are not still end up with good paying jobs and their employers seam to still like them.   

Which planet have you been living on ? the world is full of high flying "clever" people who turn out all too often to not be as skilled as was assumed. For 3 months worth of my net wages my employer was happy to have to incompetent prat built two very shoddily designed circuits, in the same time I could have done the same but much better, I then went on to spend 2 weeks fixing this post graduates fuck ups, but he is the one that is probably earning more than me and getting automatic recognition because of his post graduate degree, I'm the one that gets treated like an idiot because I don't have qualifications unless i happen to save the day and a lot of money! - Welcome to life

In this world it's what you have on paper and letters after your name and not your aptitude, enthusiasm or competence.

Too often competence and qualification get confused, a qualification does not guarantee competence, and just because your competent does not mean you got a high level qualification.

I don't disagree with you,  the fact still remains that these people hold positions and often for a very long time.   I think the under skilled employee holding a high ranking position outnumbers the skilled.   I never said I agree with the idea or that it's not a problem.   It's just what it is.   

Jeff

[ant907]

I find it very odd that 3rd-4th year EE students would not possess these skills, I can do most of the things you listed but I am still iffy on my programming skills and It has been my hobby for about 3 years . It makes me wonder how these students will fare in the real world when they have to apply there skills in real world applications and not being able to do it.

I think your video is a wake up call to hobbyist and students that electronics is not just on paper.

[Simon]

I find it very odd that 3rd-4th year EE students would not possess these skills, I can do most of the things you listed but I am still iffy on my programming skills and It has been my hobby for about 3 years . It makes me wonder how these students will fare in the real world when they have to apply there skills in real world applications and not being able to do it.

I think your video is a wake up call to hobbyist and students that electronics is not just on paper.

Then they will wind up in a company that undercuts everyone else, possibly underpays them and they produce the sort of crap I have been having to fix and get working

[(In)Sanity]

I find it very odd that 3rd-4th year EE students would not possess these skills, I can do most of the things you listed but I am still iffy on my programming skills and It has been my hobby for about 3 years . It makes me wonder how these students will fare in the real world when they have to apply there skills in real world applications and not being able to do it.

I think your video is a wake up call to hobbyist and students that electronics is not just on paper.

I got my last three full time programing jobs without even submitting a resume.   It's more than just not on paper it's also who you know and what contacts you've made.   My first big fortune 500 company job I got because of who I knew.   I proved myself with that job and made all the others that followed easy to obtain.   I always like to tell people,  be confident but not cocky.

Jeff

[Simon]

I got my last three full time programing jobs without even submitting a resume.   It's more than just not on paper it's also who you know and what contacts you've made.   My first big fortune 500 company job I got because of who I knew.   I proved myself with that job and made all the others that followed easy to obtain.   I always like to tell people,  be confident but not cocky.

Jeff

Yes I got pulled off the street, I got noticed as i worked for my company in a laboring role and was asked back as a QC inspector, then pissed the works manager off for not letting him sent crap out so he bumped me into engineering where they took me as a joke at first but now rely on me heavily.

Of course I'm poorly paid and and lucky to have a job, there will be shop floor workers paid more than me.......... Why, bacause I don't have the bit of paper.....

[(In)Sanity]

I got my last three full time programing jobs without even submitting a resume.   It's more than just not on paper it's also who you know and what contacts you've made.   My first big fortune 500 company job I got because of who I knew.   I proved myself with that job and made all the others that followed easy to obtain.   I always like to tell people,  be confident but not cocky.

Jeff

Yes I got pulled off the street, I got noticed as i worked for my company in a laboring role and was asked back as a QC inspector, then pissed the works manager off for not letting him sent crap out so he bumped me into engineering where they took me as a joke at first but now rely on me heavily.

Of course I'm poorly paid and and lucky to have a job, there will be shop floor workers paid more than me.......... Why, bacause I don't have the bit of paper.....

Yah,  I'm paid a little better then average but could be doing much better with that bit of paper.   I'll never knock anyone who gets a proper formal education.  The funny part is I actually have proper schooling in electronics with the paper bits,  however I found programming to be more lucrative and the bits of paper I have in electronics are worthless now.   I dropped out of the electronics hobby when I first got married and moved, etc.   Over the last 6 or 7 years I picked it all back up and now am stronger than ever.   I try to learn something new in the field each day and I'm never embarrassed to make an ass out of myself with stupid questions.   Remember stupid people are just those who have not yet learned,  we were all that person at one time.

Jeff

[Marco]

The exception of course might be medicine where they frown upon hobbyist.

Recreational use of stimulants is how half of them get through their internships

[Simon]

Well i am now studying, years ago when I was on agency and asked for a day free unpaid to go and study they said no, now they are paying for me to be on a course. It's a case of how obvious I've made it that having someone internal to do electronics is very important regardless of whether we use a sub contractor, because i least I can speak to them and "translate". They know I'd love the qualifications too (I mean it's been made obvious that without them I'm nothing) so it's been a happy ending but for the pay but at least I enjoy the work most of the time.

[tggzzz]

Without that maths and theoretical insight, the Battle of Britain would have been lost and my German would be much better than it is.

It looks like the above statement is wrong. Just gave this a cursory look so I may be wrong instead.
It seems Stanley Hooker's designs only went in after Battle of Britain, October 1940, I think the battle was lost and won by then.
ps. Not disrespecting Stanley's designs.

Furthur very lmited research is ... ambiguous. 

The reference I quoted is unambiguously "in my favour". Wackypedia's Merlin entry can be read either way. Hooker started on the supercharger in 1938 and the major result (the two stage supercharger) was immediately post Battle of Britain (i.e. Oct 1940). But my memory and suspicion is that he contributed to the single stage supercharger used in the BoB.

Either way, it doesn't detract from my contention that theory is as important as practice; either alone is much less useful.

You still live under the illusion that hobbyists lack a knowledge or appreciation of theory. Do you have a high flying qualification that you guard closely in case it is spotted that maybe in practice (knowledge and practical ability) you not up to it ?

As I have pointed out before, the only way you can draw that conclusion from what I have written is by faulty reading and/or logic.

[tggzzz]

I think the bottom line here is not everyone can be as skilled as others.   In the end those that are, and those that are not still end up with good paying jobs and their employers seam to still like them.   

Which planet have you been living on ? the world is full of high flying "clever" people who turn out all too often to not be as skilled as was assumed. For 3 months worth of my net wages my employer was happy to have to incompetent prat built two very shoddily designed circuits, in the same time I could have done the same but much better, I then went on to spend 2 weeks fixing this post graduates fuck ups, but he is the one that is probably earning more than me and getting automatic recognition because of his post graduate degree, I'm the one that gets treated like an idiot because I don't have qualifications unless i happen to save the day and a lot of money! - Welcome to life

And exactly the same points can with equal validity be made about amateurs that don't have a clue about what they don't understand.

That's so well-known it is even given a name: the Dunning Kreuger effect.

In this world it's what you have on paper and letters after your name and not your aptitude, enthusiasm or competence.

That rather defeatest sentiment could easily be uttered by someone with a chip on their shoulder.

Too often competence and qualification get confused, a qualification does not guarantee competence, and just because your competent does not mean you got a high level qualification.

Very true.

But neither does fiddling around as a hobby guarantee competence.

[tggzzz]

Yes I got pulled off the street, I got noticed as i worked for my company in a laboring role and was asked back as a QC inspector, then pissed the works manager off for not letting him sent crap out so he bumped me into engineering where they took me as a joke at first but now rely on me heavily.

Of course I'm poorly paid and and lucky to have a job, there will be shop floor workers paid more than me.......... Why, bacause I don't have the bit of paper.....

The engineering institutions have paths for people that don't have the paper academic qualifications. Why don't you follow those paths and get a post-grad paper qualification, e.g. become a chartered engineer?

Becoming a chartered engineer isn't easy. I know of one person (a one-time boss) that was rejected because he had moved into management too quickly.

[Simon]

And exactly the same points can with equal validity be made about amateurs that don't have a clue about what they don't understand.

That's so well-known it is even given a name: the Dunning Kreuger effect.

And because they posses no qualifications they have limited chances of getting into a place they should not be in. But it is far easier to have qualifications, not have a clue and still get into places they are not competent enough to hold.

The intelligent and capable hobbyists are the ones that understand what they don't know and seek to continually further their knowledge. I'm sorry but your being very dimisive of competent people and assume that competence gets you a qualification.

I have no chips thank you, I am just an attentive observer of the world around me.

We comissioned a guy to design a control board for a safety critical application, by safety crtical I don't men if it fails a car crashes, I mean that if it fails someone dies pretty quickly because it's practically life support, what did the clod do ? he drove a mosfet with 28V when it was rated for 10V and 20V ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM!!!!!!!!, result the systems (fortunetly only on prototypes) failed. Despite me pointing this problem out on his first version he did not correct it on his second version where they failed again.

I have no qualifications but I'm intelligent and reasonably knowledgeable and was suspicious as soon as i saw his diagram. Because I have used the required level shifting circuitry so often myself I was immediately drawn to the lack of it, this is peoples lives we are talking about. He had never even heard of a logic level mosfet, his PCB skills were a disaster

So far my employer has used 5 subcontracted engineers, 2 were conmerchants, 2 were useless and one seems to be very on the ball and a pleasure to deal with.

When a guy comes to you and moans that your thermistor you gave him to use does not have enough resolution (to flat a response curve) and you ask as you know he is using AVR's how many bits he is using and he says 8!!!!! you can either  or  there's just no hope!

[Simon]

Yes I got pulled off the street, I got noticed as i worked for my company in a laboring role and was asked back as a QC inspector, then pissed the works manager off for not letting him sent crap out so he bumped me into engineering where they took me as a joke at first but now rely on me heavily.

Of course I'm poorly paid and and lucky to have a job, there will be shop floor workers paid more than me.......... Why, bacause I don't have the bit of paper.....

The engineering institutions have paths for people that don't have the paper academic qualifications. Why don't you follow those paths and get a post-grad paper qualification, e.g. become a chartered engineer?

Becoming a chartered engineer isn't easy. I know of one person (a one-time boss) that was rejected because he had moved into management too quickly.

As I said because I DO appreciate the requirement for a solid foundation in theory, I am not only doing a HNC in electronic engineering sponsored by my company but I'm happy to do a level 3 in maths required because i appreciate that without it I won't understand the theory anyway. A HNC is the highest qualification i can go for without prior qualifications and although technically a L3 is required they are happy to take on people with some prior experience in the industry. After a HNC I can do a HND, i think that is as far as I will be able to go with employer support and personal motivation as after that you are talking a full on degree. I have mild dyslexia but I'm also quite intelligent and quite mindful of my limitations, hence I've never made a major cockup or put anyones lives at risk because I do have the prime quality which is to know my limits in the first place and then assess what I can do to get round them.

[PlagueDoctor]

When a guy comes to you and moans that your thermistor you gave him to use does not have enough resolution (to flat a response curve) and you ask as you know he is using AVR's how many bits he is using and he says 8!!!!! you can either  or  there's just no hope!

Please tell me that's a made up example, and not a real scenario you've faced... because.. that's just sad.. (and I think I'm barely qualified to be considered an electronics hobbyist, and I know thermistors (most resistors really..) are analogue, and therefore pretty well have an 'infinite' resolution.(without going down to a quantum level))

[Simon]

When a guy comes to you and moans that your thermistor you gave him to use does not have enough resolution (to flat a response curve) and you ask as you know he is using AVR's how many bits he is using and he says 8!!!!! you can either  or  there's just no hope!

Please tell me that's a made up example, and not a real scenario you've faced... because.. that's just sad.. (and I think I'm barely qualified to be considered an electronics hobbyist, and I know thermistors (most resistors really..) are analogue, and therefore pretty well have an 'infinite' resolution.(without going down to a quantum level))

Your not quite understanding, a thermistor does not have a linear relationship curve it's a curve for NTC that is very steep in the low temperatures and the curve is almost flat, ie very small change of R for C in the above 10C range. So the problem was that measuring ambient was difficult because the change in voltage on the resistor was too small for the ADC to pick up.

But when your being a clod and have a 10 bit ADC and insist on using only 8 bits and then ask that the NTC sensor is changed so that it will work with 8 bits because your too stupid or incompetent to use the full 10bits you already have then it is sad. I spent a few hours trying to keep him happy only to find that all NTC's behave in the same way and that it's a fact of life, again i learnt and digested quickly something that a so called post graduate seemed ignorant of, because he wanted to plug an NTC into an MCu and have it work, that is the arduino legacy for you!

But then I have used an NTC at well above ambient where the curve is really flat and had no problems..... I really can't think why 

[tggzzz]

As I said because I DO appreciate the requirement for a solid foundation in theory, I am not only doing a HNC in electronic engineering sponsored by my company but I'm happy to do a level 3 in maths required because i appreciate that without it I won't understand the theory anyway. A HNC is the highest qualification i can go for without prior qualifications and although technically a L3 is required they are happy to take on people with some prior experience in the industry. After a HNC I can do a HND, i think that is as far as I will be able to go with employer support and personal motivation as after that you are talking a full on degree. I have mild dyslexia but I'm also quite intelligent and quite mindful of my limitations, hence I've never made a major cockup or put anyones lives at risk because I do have the prime quality which is to know my limits in the first place and then assess what I can do to get round them.

Firstly, good for you for pushing yourself to go as far as possible given your circumstances and limitations. I find people that don't stretch their capabilities to be boring and, often, completely ignorable.

You will find a lack of maths will be a hindrance - I found the maths at uni to be difficult despite having good grades in both Pure Maths and Applied Maths. Having said that, a lot of maths has somewhat "pictorial" explanations and operation, and that may help you.

It is worth pointing out a little bit of theory about how to make a successful team. The original research was by Belbin in the 70s, and although it has attracted more than a little bovine excrement, the underlying principles are sound and can be used to guide thinking. N.B. both "guide" and "think" are vital - without those you you have process-following pen-pushers.

You will see that my strengths counteract your weaknesses and vice versa.

Principle 1: everybody's personality and experience strongly biasses them towards one of the team roles, but they can often fit into a secondary team role.

Principle 2: there are a number of team roles, each with required strengths and allowable weaknesses.

Principle 3: the team roles can be cut many ways, but the ones I understand are:

• ideas man: spits out novel thoughts, but can't evaluate their real value
• critic: quickly evaluates ideas in the context of what needs to be done, but doesn't initiate many ideas
• contact man: continually talks to everybody, acting as a conduit between the team and the stakeholders and others
• worker: does what they are told to get the job done
• finisher: obsessively dots the Is and crosses the Ts
• chairman: empathetic, causes team to reach a consensus

Principle 4: a functional team needs all those roles, which therefore requires different types of people

Principle 5: unbalanced teams will fail. For example, two ideas men will have a fizzing great time but there won't be any usable conclusion, whereas two critics won't generate anything new. Two finishers will never get the job done, whereas two workers will fill up the time available. Etc.

Your strengths counteract my weaknesses and vice versa.

And that is why both theory and practice (and the people that embody them) are necessary, and neither is sufficient.

[G0HZU]

I'll give my 2p on this based on decades of experience in EE...

A typical and keen hobbyist (but not all hobbyists so please don't be offended) tends to gain experience and knowledge in a kind of scrapbook fashion. Lots and lots of little nuggets of very useful info and experience gained over many years and this can make them appear very knowledgable and even give them delusions of grandeur.

But... and it's a huge 'but'... if you take them away from this scrapbook and give them a fresh problem then it often gets quite scary because you realise that often there is nothing inbetween the little scrapbook nuggets for them to fall back on. Often this means they can't apply basic theory to a fresh problem or they simply make up their own version of physics based on common myths. This isn't good. A little bit of knowledge can be very dangerous if there are no fundamentals to fall back on...

However, if you look at fresh graduates (decent ones) then you tend to get a fairly blank canvas. Initially they lack the skills and experience of the hobbyist but they can be groomed over time to fill in these shortcomings and eventually the hobbyist will be outclassed in nearly every department. But this can take several years.

But you can also groom a hobbyist into becoming a better EE by providing training courses or part time education and this can help fill in the gaps in their 'scrapbook' with some solid theory. Sometimes this can give a real boost to their abilities as they have more and more  'Eureka moments' as the gaps in the scrapbook get filled in. So you end up with a very capable EE but by a different path.

At the end of the day we are all human and made of the same stuff...

[tggzzz]

When a guy comes to you and moans that your thermistor you gave him to use does not have enough resolution (to flat a response curve) and you ask as you know he is using AVR's how many bits he is using and he says 8!!!!! you can either  or  there's just no hope!

Please tell me that's a made up example, and not a real scenario you've faced... because.. that's just sad.. (and I think I'm barely qualified to be considered an electronics hobbyist, and I know thermistors (most resistors really..) are analogue, and therefore pretty well have an 'infinite' resolution.(without going down to a quantum level))

Oh, we've all seen things like that.

One of my "favourites" is people that believe in the concept of reliable communications between more than two computers (thus solving the Byzantine Generals problem).

Another is that, given measurements quantised into bins, you can average two adjacent bins to increase the reaolution of the result (thus busting Shannon's Sampling theorem).

And then there are the people that, in the context of measurements, want an "accurate measurement" without comprehending whether they are actually interested in precision, resolution or repeatability.

Or those that talk about an "average value" without specifying the averaging interval. Or that don't realise that 90% of drivers can be better than average, or that in a sweatshop company the average pay can be £100,000.