eevBLAB 91 - Why Are Fluke Meters So EXPENSIVE?

[bdunham7]

Can anybody give examples or meters that read wrong with low battery but when the battery indicator isn't lit up?

That's moving the goalposts.  Nobody mentioned low battery indicators and I would interpret a low battery indicator as meaning 'replace the battery soon', not 'I'm going to lie to you'.

[Fungus]

Can anybody give examples or meters that read wrong with low battery but when the battery indicator isn't lit up?

That's moving the goalposts.  Nobody mentioned low battery indicators and I would interpret a low battery indicator as meaning 'replace the battery soon', not 'I'm going to lie to you'.

Whatever. It's certainly a subject worthy of further investigation. Firstly to ensure that no Fluke meter will do it and then to find out which other ones do.

Are we talking about some cheap, old, unobtanium meters (there were definitely some dodgy meters on sale 15-20 years ago) or are we talking about meters that people can buy today?

Is there any difference between "Aliexpress specials" (ie. Zotek/Aneng) and the no-name meters people might buy in Walmart?

This is definitely something that should be done in any serious multimeter review.

[Cerebus]

Can anybody give examples or meters that read wrong with low battery but when the battery indicator isn't lit up?

That's moving the goalposts.  Nobody mentioned low battery indicators and I would interpret a low battery indicator as meaning 'replace the battery soon', not 'I'm going to lie to you'.

My general expectation is that a battery indicator comes on to indicate "getting low" and flashes or assumes a distinctly different state to mean "replace battery now".

As has already been pointed out, the only acceptable behaviour for an instrument that can mis-read on low battery is to display only a low battery indicator, lock out the rest of the display and not offer a reading that is potentially invalid.

[nctnico]

Turns out he was using a cheap-ass multimeter that reads too high when the battery voltage is getting low  From that instance alone buying a Fluke would have been more cost effective.

Can we name and shame these multimeters? I keep seeing tales like this posted here but it's always in a "friend-of-a-friend" way, just like those urban legends.

It is definitely not an urban legend; I've seen it happen myself! I'll check the type & brand if I don't forget. I'll urge the particular customer to throw the DMMs into the trash and buy good ones.

I got round to checking the brand & model of the crappy DMM: 'BK Precision' model 388B

[bdunham7]

I got round to checking the brand & model of the crappy DMM: 'BK Precision' model 388B

Yikes!  That's not an ultra-cheapie, especially considering you don't get TRMS or auto-range with it.  But it does have hFE!

[Fungus]

I got round to checking the brand & model of the crappy DMM: 'BK Precision' model 388B

Yikes!  That's not an ultra-cheapie, especially considering you don't get TRMS or auto-range with it.  But it does have hFE!

That suggests another video: "Which expensive meters are complete and utter crap?"

What's the absolute worst bang-per-buck ratio on the market?

[bdunham7]

What's the absolute worst bang-per-buck ratio on the market?

I'd nominate this beauty.

https://www.grainger.com/product/MILWAUKEE-MILWAUKEE-R-2217-20-Series-5MLK1

I don't know that it doesn't work well, but compared to this the 'bang for buck' is pretty miserable.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000215450256.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.6e4beba3rsUci1&algo_pvid=541b6275-1d0a-4689-b9cc-fd06ed6acf6e&algo_exp_id=541b6275-1d0a-4689-b9cc-fd06ed6acf6e-0&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2210000000836519111%22%7D&pdp_pi=-1%3B23.0%3B-1%3B-1%40salePrice%3BUSD%3Bsearch-mainSearch

As for expensive 'utter crap' I'd nominate the Keysight handhelds that the displays all went bad on after few years.

[Fungus]

Do meters like that help with Fluke's reputation?

I mean you pay $180 for a meter thinking it ought to be a good one at that price, find out it's a pile of poo, then that becomes your yardstick?

Compared to that meter Flukes will suddenly seem like good value for money ("once bitten, twice shy") and all those $25 Chinese meters must be worthless garbage.

[Fungus]

I'd nominate this beauty.

https://www.grainger.com/product/MILWAUKEE-MILWAUKEE-R-2217-20-Series-5MLK1

It can be had for much less if you shop around:

https://www.plumbersstock.com/milwaukee-2217-20-digital-multimeter.html

I don't know that it doesn't work well, but compared to this the 'bang for buck' is pretty miserable.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000215450256.html

At that price? Snap 'em up while you still can! Seriously.

As for expensive 'utter crap' I'd nominate the Keysight handhelds that the displays all went bad on after few years.

There's a certain schadenfreude in that one.  Buy a "fashion" meter based on looks, expect it to last a fashionable amount of time.

[EEVblog]

That suggests another video: "Which expensive meters are complete and utter crap?"
What's the absolute worst bang-per-buck ratio on the market?

You'd have to redefine bang-by-buck, because it usually does not include build quality.
A meter could for example be excellent build quality and otherwise very nice, but have almost no features at a high price. That would mean it's crap, simply outstandingly poor bang-per-buck.

[Fungus]

That suggests another video: "Which expensive meters are complete and utter crap?"
What's the absolute worst bang-per-buck ratio on the market?

You'd have to redefine bang-by-buck, because it usually does not include build quality.
A meter could for example be excellent build quality and otherwise very nice, but have almost no features at a high price. That would mean it's crap, simply outstandingly poor bang-per-buck.

Sure, but a stinker is a stinker no matter how you look at it.

I was wondering what meter would you most regret buying. The meter that would make you cry every time your boss forced you to use it. The more expensive, the better, obviously. 

[Fungus]

The sales blurb for that BK Precision is quite ironic. They specifically claim "bang-per-buck".   



Even better: You can have it for half price if you buy it with NIST certificate! 

[EEVblog]

That suggests another video: "Which expensive meters are complete and utter crap?"
What's the absolute worst bang-per-buck ratio on the market?

You'd have to redefine bang-by-buck, because it usually does not include build quality.
A meter could for example be excellent build quality and otherwise very nice, but have almost no features at a high price. That would mean it's crap, simply outstandingly poor bang-per-buck.

Sure, but a stinker is a stinker no matter how you look at it.

But some people may genuinely value a simple feature high priced well built rugged meter. Remember the title of this thread.

[Fungus]

But some people may genuinely value a simple feature high priced well built rugged meter. Remember the title of this thread.

Right, so build quality is "bang" for them.

[nctnico]

That suggests another video: "Which expensive meters are complete and utter crap?"
What's the absolute worst bang-per-buck ratio on the market?

You'd have to redefine bang-by-buck, because it usually does not include build quality.
A meter could for example be excellent build quality and otherwise very nice, but have almost no features at a high price. That would mean it's crap, simply outstandingly poor bang-per-buck.

Sure, but a stinker is a stinker no matter how you look at it.

But some people may genuinely value a simple feature high priced well built rugged meter. Remember the title of this thread.

Indeed. Bonus points if you can trust the readings! I want a meter which I can trust fully; bells & whistles appear somewhere further down the list with priorities.

[Ed.Kloonk]

When I use my meter, it's more often than not in the most dark, terrible places to try and read the screen.

What I do like about the Fluke is the high contrast and enormous digits. And it can always take a good photo for evidence. The Fluke LCD is mentioned in the video.

My question is, what is in the Fluke screens that the others always seem to lack? Is it tied up with patents?

Sure they say the Fluke looks the part when you show up with one and yes I kinda agree. But with my eyes, the screen and the range switch I know I can trust when I've got my arm inside some dirty machine. I don't like any other meter when in that situation all costs considered.

I can't understand the point of putting in the effort to design a cheaper meter with better specs and then fall short on the readability.

[Fungus]

When I use my meter, it's more often than not in the most dark, terrible places to try and read the screen.

What I do like about the Fluke is the high contrast and enormous digits. And it can always take a good photo for evidence. The Fluke LCD is mentioned in the video.

My question is, what is in the Fluke screens that the others always seem to lack?

I don't think Fluke has any sort of monopoly on this. I've got $10 meters with much bigger digits and my blackest, highest contrast displays are on $4 DT830Bs.

My Brymen BM857 definitely has a better display than my Fluke 187.

The Fluke 287 is famously bad on the eyes.

I'm told it all mostly comes down to the number of segments in the display and degree of multiplexing. Less multiplexing=more contrast. More segments=more multiplexing.

[Fungus]

Indeed. Bonus points if you can trust the readings! I want a meter which I can trust fully; bells & whistles appear somewhere further down the list with priorities.

There's no evidence that Fluke has a monopoly there, either.

eg. Brymen seem to manage OK in that department.

[Shock]

Long term drift may still be a factor with Brymens. You would need data over several models over several years. You could assume Fluke pays more attention to component quality than most as they have longer product life cycles.

[Fungus]

Long term drift may still be a factor with Brymens.

What probability would you assign to that?

[Shock]

Likely. Fluke 87V is 18 years old that is a lot of data.

[mansaxel]

Here's a link to an eBay listing of the kind of meter that misbehaves.  I see similar meters with different branding frequently -- I suspect they all share the same internals.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/123902191530?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=123902191530&targetid=1262376589336&device=c

Transistor tester sockets on a "Cat II 750VAC" meter. Yeah, right. No wonder the meter misbehaves. Sortakinda comes with the quality bracket. And this is not the competition that Fluke needs to bother about, just to be clear.

I have 7 Flukes, 8020, 8022, 2x 8060, 10, 123, 28. They don't let you down. Simple as that. I also have 2 off Gossen MetraHit (14 and 25), and a hp 973a. They don't let you down either.

[rsjsouza]

A meter could for example be excellent build quality and otherwise very nice, but have almost no features at a high price. That would mean it's crap, simply outstandingly poor bang-per-buck.

This defines Fluke - poor feature set per price bracket, but people value robustness, track record, etc. especially their 10x series which has electrical robustness and it seems mechanically sound, although I had some quality problems with two 101s from them.

Likely. Fluke 87V is 18 years old that is a lot of data.

Although not as popular, my BM857 is 2003-manufactured (bought NOS in 2013) and is still spot on after 8 years in service (and stored in unknown conditions prior to that).

[Fungus]

Long term drift may still be a factor with Brymens.

What probability would you assign to that?

Likely. Fluke 87V is 18 years old that is a lot of data.

"Likely"? 

I'm not an expert but Brymens have been around a while, too, and the components inside Brymens are pretty much the same components as inside Flukes.

If Brymens were going out of spec then people would have noticed by now.

[Fungus]

Although not as popular, my BM857 is 2003-manufactured

I love my BM857... 

I'll let you all know if it ever differs from my Fluke 187 by more than a digit or so. Right now they both measure exactly the same.

(both are 50,000 counts)