eevBLAB 91 - Why Are Fluke Meters So EXPENSIVE?

[EEVblog]

8 industry reasons why Fluke meters are so expensive, and why people still buy them.
You might be surprised by some of the reasons and have not encountered this thinking before in the industry.

[PartialDischarge]

I disagree with 0 of the reasons you’ve given

[Bicurico]

These are all valid points, yet pretty specific ones (army).

I would sum it up as: you will never get fired for purchasing Fluke meters.

[EEVblog]

These are all valid points, yet pretty specific ones (army).

Not just army, the entire defense forces, government, education, and countless big businesses.
That total market is so big it makes Fluke still one of the highest volume multimeter makers in the world.

[M0HZH]

...
I would sum it up as: you will never get fired for purchasing Fluke meters.

Working in the test equipment industry, I can confirm this slogan is heard frequently. I think it started in the 80's and it was about HP, but it suits Fluke very well.

[EEVblog]

...
I would sum it up as: you will never get fired for purchasing Fluke meters.

Working in the test equipment industry, I can confirm this slogan is heard frequently. I think it started in the 80's and it was about HP, but it suits Fluke very well.

It was a famous slogan for IBM - "No one ever got fired for buying IBM." from the 1970's.

[rsjsouza]

The labs where I work have a large set of 15~20 year old Fluke portable meters (87-V, 187, 189) that are shared among everyone in multiple labs - calibrated annually. In conversations with the techs, they say they "just work" - zero headaches, zero mechanical breakage, mechanically robust.

This is similar to what I used to see in the 1990s in the university labs in Brazil: tons of banged up Analog VOM Sanwas still quite accurate and working well - despite the higher fragility of the movement.

Brymen is getting there, but they need time.

[tszaboo]

About measurement confidence: Yes, it is very important and it can be very costly. Years ago where I worked had these large shunt resistors, that were used together with 34401As to calibrate (and adjust) the product that we were shipping to our customers. We were sending out these shunts to get them calibrated to an external lab. One year, one of the shunts came back as "out of spec". So then we had to trace back which units we used to calibrate with this particular shunts, because all of them needed to be recalibrated. Also, we had to send a technician to Japan to fix a bunch of the units that were there just to make sure they are OK. The worst part is, the drift of the shunt was within the specification of the manufacturer of the resistor, and as far as I could tell, there were no justification why the procedures were like that.
So yes. Having cheap test equipment can be very costly.

[The Doktor]

If it's a good reading, it must be a fluke 

[firewalker]

In my military service I had to use analog meters because the documentation was for a specific analog multimeter. We had boxes and boxes of new old stock of this meter. It is far from trivial to apply a change.

Alexander.

[cliffyk]

Why Are Fluke Meters So EXPENSIVE?

Same reason as divorces--they are worth it...

[Caliaxy]

It was a famous slogan for IBM - "No one ever got fired for buying IBM." from the 1970's.

I see it working at the other end, too - “No one ever got divorced for buying Aneng.”

[SteveyG]

Aside from trust and reliability, it's also the same reason everyone uses Keysight scopes in professional environments. Any electronics engineer will pick up a Fluke meter or a Keysight scope and just know how it works and how to interpret readings. Put an R&S scope in front of someone or a random multimeter and you need to waste time navigating the UI or checking everything is in the correct mode/port etc.

It was a famous slogan for IBM - "No one ever got fired for buying IBM." from the 1970's.

I see it working at the other end, too - “No one ever got divorced for buying Aneng.”

You don't get divorced if you are deceased. 

[gnavigator1007]

Been seeing lots of referencing to each others videos in the nerdier sectors of youtube lately. Just had this video recommended to me.

[Dread]

When I use my 87-V meter I always have confidence that the reading I am getting is accurate.  Thats why Fluke is the only meter for me.

Another small point.  I have never opened a Fluke meter and found a leaking battery in it.  I have had Flukes since the 1980s and left Duracell batteries in some 77s for a few years and no leaks.  I have other no name brand meters that leaked with the first set of batteries I put in.

Has anyone opened a Fluke meter and found a leaking 9V battery?

[EEVblog]

Been seeing lots of referencing to each others videos in the nerdier sectors of youtube lately. Just had this video recommended to me.

Ah, didn't know he did a response.
He shot this before I did my video, just based on my Youtube comment, so I had more expanded explainations in the video.

[gnavigator1007]

Yes I saw in the comments that someone mentioned your video to him. He replied to that commenter, mentioning that he had intended to upload earlier in the day, but was late. Just a wild coincidence you both posted fluke related videos so close together. Made for nice back to back viewing

[Shock]

Ah, didn't know he did a response.
He shot this before I did my video, just based on my Youtube comment, so I had more expanded explanations in the video.

Dave I forget which video I saw of his but he did something similar and totally missed the mark on it. I really liked the video you did and it summed it up perfectly. I was wondering if one of his videos inspired yours.

As much as I'm sure Kiss Analog knows his respective field of expertise geez he sprouts some totally incoherent sentences. He needs to spend some time editing out his pointless drivel.

[EEVblog]

Ah, didn't know he did a response.
He shot this before I did my video, just based on my Youtube comment, so I had more expanded explanations in the video.

Dave I forget which video I saw of his but he did something similar and totally missed the mark on it. I really liked the video you did and it summed it up perfectly. I was wondering if one of his videos inspired yours.

Hi latest video jus treleased was based entirely on my response, which at the time was just a comment on an old video of his. I then truned that comment into a video whcih he hadn't seen because we released them about the same time.

[artag]

Not sure if this has been covered, but one reason I buy well-known makes like Fluke and HP and Myford (in another sphere) is exactly that they're well-known.

I pretty well always buy secondhand and if I buy these brands I not only think they have a good choice of being in working condition, I also know that IU will be able to find parts, schematics, or other people who've worked on them. Even if the company is notoriously tight with repair information, I've a good chance of being able to fix it.

Thus, I have about 5 flukes, none of which cost me more than about £50, and I was able to repair the only one that came to me faulty.

I haven't tried with Brymen - maybe they're even better and provide schematics ? I think Fluke used to but not any more.

[rsjsouza]

Not sure if this has been covered, but one reason I buy well-known makes like Fluke and HP and Myford (in another sphere) is exactly that they're well-known.

I pretty well always buy secondhand and if I buy these brands I not only think they have a good choice of being in working condition, I also know that IU will be able to find parts, schematics, or other people who've worked on them. Even if the company is notoriously tight with repair information, I've a good chance of being able to fix it.

Thus, I have about 5 flukes, none of which cost me more than about £50, and I was able to repair the only one that came to me faulty.

I haven't tried with Brymen - maybe they're even better and provide schematics ? I think Fluke used to but not any more.

Brymen does not provide schematics, but their meters are quite well built. Also, the support they provide is excellent.

[EEVblog]

I haven't tried with Brymen - maybe they're even better and provide schematics ? I think Fluke used to but not any more.

Brymen do not provide schematics.
Some current model Fluke have schematics, some don't. Although some may have been leaked I suspect, like the 17B that has "Proprietary" on it.
Would be nice to have a comprehensive thread of meter schematics actually.

[bigsky]

Regarding the Fluke lifetime warranty, I can confirm that it means what it says. My 28 II developed a weird fault, I sent it back to them, and in about a week a brand new replacement arrived. I had registered the meter that failed so they were able to check ownership - the story might be different if yours was bought second-hand and registered to someone else. There are very few companies that offer such a good warranty. I agree 100% with everything else that Dave said.

This is a bit off-topic, but there is one other thing I have noticed with Fluke. Nothing gets you more instant credibility with a client than pulling out a full-size modern Fluke DMM. Yes, obviously any fool with enough money could buy one, but it seems that it is only competent professionals that make the investment. I've never regretted it myself.

[Martin72]

Saw this video a few minutes ago and yes, I agree to all the points.
I´m working as a testfield-coordinator ( former "only" technician) in a company, which are building high quality power solutions for ship, submarine, aircraft and so on, in military grade and standards.
Everything we work with must be external calibrating, fully traceable.
Even crimp tools !!!
Fluke is the standard for the reasons Dave are telling in his vid, so we got EVERYTHING from fluke what multimeters and enviromental probes concerns.
Especially the 87, we got appx 30 pcs from it, all 87V - and one 87 from 1990...
In all these years it went through the calibration processes without needing any adjustment.
For example, in private I´ve bought a Brymen 859s and give it away for external calibration.
It comes back with an ISO protocol and in several ranges it was re-adjusted for reaching the own specs.
We´re talking about two weeks after buying it NEW...
Fluke is the standard, mic drop.

[gnavigator1007]

As much as I'm sure Kiss Analog knows his respective field of expertise geez he sprouts some totally incoherent sentences. He needs to spend some time editing out his pointless drivel.

Absolutely! I know Dave has acknowledged his own tendency for waffle, but this is something else entirely. I can't remember Dave ever being so hard to follow, even if he might run off on a tangent or mis-speak on occasion. I haven't watched much of Kiss Analog's videos largely due to an unfair prejudice against the way he pronounces "multimeter", but I actually would be interested in hearing more of his stories. He seems like a nice enough person with an interesting background that is taking the time to put out content. It just seems like there is a disconnect at times between where his brain is and the words coming out of his mouth.

[Shock]

Perhaps Kiss Analog is just nervous, it's disconcerting though.

Daves ok, sure he repeats a bit but he edits and retakes on the fly. Personally I don't go for the high energy type presentation style but I support Dave and the forum by watching, reading and clicking on the adverts etc. Dave might not like my presentation style either, the world doesn't have to be perfect. This Christmas I'll be also drinking Daves share of beer again, I find it a happy medium.

Mjlorton was really hard to watch, you can turn his speed up to 1.25 times to digitally fix him hehe. He would be bigger than Dave by now if he kept posting regular videos but the opportunity was squandered. Easy also to lose your audience by changing your content suddenly.

[EEVblog]

Absolutely! I know Dave has acknowledged his own tendency for waffle, but this is something else entirely. I can't remember Dave ever being so hard to follow, even if he might run off on a tangent or mis-speak on occasion

A mis-speak is guaranteed in every video or your money back!
I do like to edit my videos much more now than I use to. And I like to think even if a lot fo it is waffle, I'll edit it to concise waffle and ensure it's useful information (or at least what I consider useful).
I often do two pass editing now which tightens up the video a bit further from the main edit. Maybe an extra minute or two off a 30 minute video perhaps, but I think that's worth it.

[jpanhalt]

Just delete the circulating fan in the background.  It serves as a timestamp to discern where the video has been edited.

[Shock]

Forgot to mention, the high energy presentation style is preferred for audiences with low attention spans i.e. the masses. Dave has likely brought more people into the hobby than anyone else on youtube, and has the most diverse channel content as well.

It's hard to be all things to all people and predict the future. You could be ahead of a trend such as Arduino and amass a huge audience but get railroaded if something new/better comes along.

As it happens this Fluke video (and few others) bagged Dave a bunch of new youtube subs this month. Got to be happy with 150k views in 3 days. The Veritasium video also did extremely well, half a million views in a few weeks. Got to be happy with that, might even be worth milking it for another video.

[XantheFIN]

Fluke has fluke to show low ohm circuits/shorts as negative ohms in certain situations. 

[Shock]

I know you're probably messing around. You tend to see that if another current source is flowing in the circuit or the meters input has been damaged. It's almost 1M so not close to low ohms at all.

That model does have lead compensation so it might even be possible to give it a 1M offset. Then measuring a short would give you a negative measurement.

But hey, when in doubt just "rel" it out right? . Oops no delta/rel feature on that model, bad luck.

[XantheFIN]

I know you're probably messing around. You tend to see that if another current source is flowing in the circuit or the meters input has been damaged. It's almost 1M so not close to low ohms at all.

That model does have lead compensation so it might even be possible to give it a 1M offset. Then measuring a short would give you a negative measurement.

But hey, when in doubt just "rel" it out right? . Oops no delta/rel feature on that model, bad luck.

I knew things starts throwing around so i took next picture show all is fine on this oldie (not mine actually its workplace) and i know the circuit where shows negative million ohms is indeed short due i was measuring relay's closed contacts *Correction. i did not remember anymore* it did on each and every one i measured which had circuit like it. Or i need complain to Omrom their PLC suck which was in parallel to that external relay But i give the one theory is closest what happening you mentioned most likely.

P.S. In Beeb position Fluke works fine as it does Beeb as should but on Ohms it shows that reading so its confused 

Update: Ops i was wrong i went check schematics that i was probing A1 terminal and output of logic. Not relay contacts. My bad 

[Milmat1]

Very simple example:

I am looking for another DMM right now. To compliment my old Fluke 87. I read reviews, watch videos etc etc etc...

Out of frustration I will likely end up buying another Fluke. Simply because I know that I basically cannot go wrong. Even though there may be better meters (accurate,Reliable, Durable) on the market that cost 1/2 of the price.

But between things like availabilty and mixed reviews I will just buy a Fluke.  Besides it having a certain prestidge asigned to it everyone reconizes the meter and can respect it's readings.

I thought this video was excellent informative and just a great idea.  Another Big Thumbs up for our friend down under.....

[Milmat1]

Negative Resistance !!  Dude your gonna be super rich !!

[wizard69]

These are all valid points, yet pretty specific ones (army).

Not just army, the entire defense forces, government, education, and countless big businesses.
That total market is so big it makes Fluke still one of the highest volume multimeter makers in the world.

Speaking as one that has not been in military service but yet have had long history with small to midsize businesses I've finally come to the realization that they (managers / owners) don't care about the cost of equipment all that much.  As long as the purchase is justified, and will not create problems, the cost of an instrument is not a big deal.   The "not create problems" is a big deal, even a glitch of a day can cause huge budget and timing problems so going the safe route is the sane thing to do.    This especially if your industry has the requirement for strict validation work and a procedure for everything including how to take a crap.

As an example; when starting out I was working with a field engineer installing a new tool.   In the process he specified the type meter required for calibration, one feature being a thermal converter for AC measurements.   This narrowed things down a bit and other specs even more.    Reluctantly I went to the boss with the requirements and a meter that meant the specs (not a Fluke actually, but not cheap either).   I was reluctant because the company was notoriously cheap even while make big bucks, but no problem whatever is needed.   I was a bit shocked really.

Personally I've stayed with Fluke at most places I've worked due to the great services they provide.   Note it didn't matter to me if it was a personally owned meter or one the company would own, when you are making a living with a tool there are other factors beyond price that are important.   It is sort of like asking why mechanics buy Snap-On tools, sometimes they are expensive but there are also issues beyond price to consider.   Service is a big one.

It is interesting too that mechanics often rely upon Snap-On for some of the same reason many of us rely upon Fluke.  Things like tools with a long run time, this means if something breaks you are likely to get a relatively exact replacement.   Another issue is a refined and familiar interface that keeps adjustment time to a minimal.   Now this is not to dismiss that both Fluke and Snap-ON have issues, every company does.   The point is they serve markets where the professionals they are dealing with have certain expectations of them.

[wizard69]

...
I would sum it up as: you will never get fired for purchasing Fluke meters.

Working in the test equipment industry, I can confirm this slogan is heard frequently. I think it started in the 80's and it was about HP, but it suits Fluke very well.

It can also be extremely frustrating when you can't buy from HP or Fluke.   We are on the look out at work for a decent light intensity meter that doesn't fall apart when you look at it.  As such we would easily pay for an offering from one of these companies.   A lot of companies in the instrumentation field are not building robust equipment and frankly seem to have an attitude when you suggest that they need to do better.   In the case of Fluke or HP, I'm pretty sure a hardware revision would be in the works if the problem was common enough.

[Cerebus]

Regarding the Fluke lifetime warranty, I can confirm that it means what it says. My 28 II developed a weird fault, I sent it back to them, and in about a week a brand new replacement arrived. I had registered the meter that failed so they were able to check ownership - the story might be different if yours was bought second-hand and registered to someone else. There are very few companies that offer such a good warranty. I agree 100% with everything else that Dave said.

The "gotcha" with the Fluke lifetime warranty is that it is original purchaser only. Nothing wrong with that, it keeps things affordable for Fluke what with so many 2nd hand examples circulating but it has caught some people out

[Cerebus]

...
I would sum it up as: you will never get fired for purchasing Fluke meters.

Working in the test equipment industry, I can confirm this slogan is heard frequently. I think it started in the 80's and it was about HP, but it suits Fluke very well.

It can also be extremely frustrating when you can't buy from HP or Fluke.   We are on the look out at work for a decent light intensity meter that doesn't fall apart when you look at it.  As such we would easily pay for an offering from one of these companies.   A lot of companies in the instrumentation field are not building robust equipment and frankly seem to have an attitude when you suggest that they need to do better.   In the case of Fluke or HP, I'm pretty sure a hardware revision would be in the works if the problem was common enough.

Take a look at Gossen. Industry standard for many industries that rely on accurate light measurements, including photographic/cinematographic meters that still work when they've been dragged though jungles and deserts.. They were spun off from Gossen Metrawatt back in 1997 but they've been making light metering equipment since the year dot. Reassuringly expensive.

[wizard69]

Regarding the Fluke lifetime warranty, I can confirm that it means what it says. My 28 II developed a weird fault, I sent it back to them, and in about a week a brand new replacement arrived. I had registered the meter that failed so they were able to check ownership - the story might be different if yours was bought second-hand and registered to someone else. There are very few companies that offer such a good warranty. I agree 100% with everything else that Dave said.

This is a bit off-topic, but there is one other thing I have noticed with Fluke. Nothing gets you more instant credibility with a client than pulling out a full-size modern Fluke DMM. Yes, obviously any fool with enough money could buy one, but it seems that it is only competent professionals that make the investment. I've never regretted it myself.

The other really important thing is that the cost of a handheld meter from Fluke is trivial for most businesses.   If somebody walks into your business with a $10 meter from HF you have to wonder if they have the ability to succeed and have a decent track record.   I've worked with so any field engineers / techs over the years that there are certain things that give you confidence in seeing whatever is happening through.   A tech with a bunch of dime store ill maintained tools will not inspire confidence.   Today laptops can send a similar message.   You don't want too cheap of a laptop and certainly not so poorly maintained that it can't boot up half the time.

[wizard69]

Absolutely! I know Dave has acknowledged his own tendency for waffle, but this is something else entirely. I can't remember Dave ever being so hard to follow, even if he might run off on a tangent or mis-speak on occasion

A mis-speak is guaranteed in every video or your money back!
I do like to edit my videos much more now than I use to. And I like to think even if a lot fo it is waffle, I'll edit it to concise waffle and ensure it's useful information (or at least what I consider useful).
I often do two pass editing now which tightens up the video a bit further from the main edit. Maybe an extra minute or two off a 30 minute video perhaps, but I think that's worth it.

Just too confirm, from the standpoint of a semi regular user of the EEVBlog, I do like the quality of your videos.   I don't expect youtubers to be carbon copies of each other and frankly I try to enjoy some variety in what I watch.   The semi regular comes from the reality that if I watched all the content I'm interested in I would never get anything done around the house.

If anything your content has sort of contributed to my thinking about Youtube in retirement.   The problem I have is focus, as the content would be all over the place and I'm not too sure how well that would work.   So think of yourself as inspiring, in my case to go a bit deeper into electronics than I have in my work career.   So edit away,

[AG6QR]

The other really important thing is that the cost of a handheld meter from Fluke is trivial for most businesses.

Agreed!  Any time a business sends a truck to my house with a technician to do a job that will take an hour or more, it always ends up costing me quite a bit more than a Fluke meter, and they do this multiple times per day. 

A carpenter doesn't buy the cheapest hammer, a lumberjack doesn't buy the cheapest chainsaw, and an electrician shouldn't buy the cheapest meter. The primary tools you depend on every day aren't the place to cut costs, especially when the top brands don't cost so much to begin with.

I like that my Fluke 16 (an obsolete discontinued model) can be fed mains electricity while it's set up for resistance mode, and not only will it not blow up, but it will happily switch to low-Z voltage mode and display the measured voltage.  It's idiot proof.  I like to think I'm smart enough not to accidentally have the meter set in the wrong mode, but I'm sure that, if I were using it for eight hours a day in a variety of situations, I'd eventually do something stupid, and appreciate that the meter would cover for me.

[rsjsouza]

These are all valid points, yet pretty specific ones (army).

Not just army, the entire defense forces, government, education, and countless big businesses.
That total market is so big it makes Fluke still one of the highest volume multimeter makers in the world.

Speaking as one that has not been in military service but yet have had long history with small to midsize businesses I've finally come to the realization that they (managers / owners) don't care about the cost of equipment all that much.  As long as the purchase is justified, and will not create problems, the cost of an instrument is not a big deal.   The "not create problems" is a big deal, even a glitch of a day can cause huge budget and timing problems so going the safe route is the sane thing to do.

Precisely. The Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) is what really matters. No problems = low TCO. Also, the simpler justification given to management w.r.t. the choice of a tool, the better chances of getting it approved. Too many lines on your request and you risk having it delayed or ignored.

Of course, this holds true for Fluke as DMMs are relatively simple devices that do not become obsolete as other areas of the T&M market. 

Case in point: our labs once flooded with Tek scopes are now relegated only to the benches that require very basic uses - otherwise, R&S, LeCroy and Keysights are the norm. I don't have access to one of these and would love to bring my own Rigol there, which runs miles around the poor old TDS3014Bs that we have in the storage but nobody wants them.

[spackard]

Another reason:  If you're really designing in aerospace then almost certainly you won't be the person using the meter.
There's a whole crew of (cheaper, more readily available)  test and support technicians, who have high-school degrees and heard the company pays well.
They aren't EEs, they have no desire to become EEs, they're hired to run (your) test procedures and give it an "approved", or, more likely, stop the test and call over an engineer on how to proceed.

You give technicians training (annually); they may or may not pay attention.

But, you have to have confidence that the test equipment is doing reliable and repeatable measurements when it's thousands of miles away from your workplace and you aren't the one doing the measurements.

[thm_w]

Case in point: our labs once flooded with Tek scopes are now relegated only to the benches that require very basic uses - otherwise, R&S, LeCroy and Keysights are the norm. I don't have access to one of these and would love to bring my own Rigol there, which runs miles around the poor old TDS3014Bs that we have in the storage but nobody wants them.

If you are able, sell them off then use the money to buy a few rigol, they go for over $700.

[rsjsouza]

Case in point: our labs once flooded with Tek scopes are now relegated only to the benches that require very basic uses - otherwise, R&S, LeCroy and Keysights are the norm. I don't have access to one of these and would love to bring my own Rigol there, which runs miles around the poor old TDS3014Bs that we have in the storage but nobody wants them.

If you are able, sell them off then use the money to buy a few rigol, they go for over $700.

I wish... R&R does not allow individual employees to purchase decomissioned/faulty equipment anymore. 

[james_s]

Absolutely! I know Dave has acknowledged his own tendency for waffle, but this is something else entirely. I can't remember Dave ever being so hard to follow, even if he might run off on a tangent or mis-speak on occasion. I haven't watched much of Kiss Analog's videos largely due to an unfair prejudice against the way he pronounces "multimeter", but I actually would be interested in hearing more of his stories. He seems like a nice enough person with an interesting background that is taking the time to put out content. It just seems like there is a disconnect at times between where his brain is and the words coming out of his mouth.

In many of his videos I often skip ahead when he is rambling about something that doesn't particularly interest me, it's ok, maybe it is interesting to somebody else. I certainly have no room to complain about rambling about obscure details that interest me.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Would be nice to have a comprehensive thread of meter schematics actually.

Indeed.

As an innocent bystander, it would be interesting to see if we could distil down how much meter protection exists on the PCB vs the actual discrete components.

[gnavigator1007]

While I think it would certainly be great to have a dedicated thread, I'd also worry that it could quickly become a target for DMCA. Any designated thread for that sort of posting would be best kept in the supporters area.

[Ed.Kloonk]

While I think it would certainly be great to have a dedicated thread, I'd also worry that it could quickly become a target for DMCA. Any designated thread for that sort of posting would be best kept in the supporters area.

Oh yeah.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Absolutely! I know Dave has acknowledged his own tendency for waffle, but this is something else entirely. I can't remember Dave ever being so hard to follow, even if he might run off on a tangent or mis-speak on occasion. I haven't watched much of Kiss Analog's videos largely due to an unfair prejudice against the way he pronounces "multimeter", but I actually would be interested in hearing more of his stories. He seems like a nice enough person with an interesting background that is taking the time to put out content. It just seems like there is a disconnect at times between where his brain is and the words coming out of his mouth.

In many of his videos I often skip ahead when he is rambling about something that doesn't particularly interest me, it's ok, maybe it is interesting to somebody else. I certainly have no room to complain about rambling about obscure details that interest me.

All Y/T'rs waffle. In Dave's defence, I put it to you that the eevblog channel waffle is where anyone else's channel would contain ads for numblua or some other retarded crap nobody cares about.

[Assafl]

There are also second tier reasons people buy Fluke (and other "high value" test equipment). For example, hiring: many highly experienced service technicians will not be willing to work with subpar equipment.

They have the experience of having used low quality stuff and chasing ghosts - wrong values, phantom readings, etc. and have come to the conclusion that it isn't worth it and makes them look bad.

So they won't join a place that skimps on the "tools of the trade". If you want the best technicians (not easy to find in any case) - you want a lab that will pull them in. In some cases, a technician will join a place that builds its own test fixtures as an alternative - but not the ones that will have a room full of "Aneng".

Engineers (I think) care less - at least most of the ones I know. In fact, many times they'll see the inadequacies of their measurement tools as yet another way to practice the theory and think up a clever way to do a test. Think of all the Bob Pease Porridge articles and the way they ended up testing their circuitry at the extremes.

[EEVblog]

259K views on this video, creay! 

[Ed.Kloonk]

Must have hit a nerve.

[Fungus]

Must have hit a nerve.

All those Fluke owners on the defensive... 

[Bud]

A carpenter doesn't buy the cheapest hammer, a lumberjack doesn't buy the cheapest chainsaw.

I would love to be with you on this one but this is not what I have seen at least here in Can land. All those guys show up with the bottom of the barrel tools, the best they may carry is Dewalt. As a DYI my tools are better - Hilti, Fein, Milwaukee.

[Martin72]

They have the experience of having used low quality stuff and chasing ghosts - wrong values, phantom readings, etc. and have come to the conclusion that it isn't worth it and makes them look bad.

This is a general thing, when you´re chasing after a fault which doesn´t exist, only in your measure-equipment...
Worst case scenario.

[james_s]

A carpenter doesn't buy the cheapest hammer, a lumberjack doesn't buy the cheapest chainsaw.

I would love to be with you on this one but this is not what I have seen at least here in Can land. All those guys show up with the bottom of the barrel tools, the best they may carry is Dewalt. As a DYI my tools are better - Hilti, Fein, Milwaukee.

That might be due to the possibility of theft. When you're bringing tools you own to a jobsite, the expensive ones have a way of sprouting legs and running off.

[Becbec]

Hi i think you missed the mark here
1 all company's and sol-traders can write the cost off against  income Tax
2 one is investing in one on fortune 
3 every thing has a cost and then there is the price one pays
4 in your vid you make very good points
5 yes i am a fluke fan boy
6 my main concern is Balance & bios of the vid   
7 my background is automotive and have followed your channel all most from the beginning and in that time this is the only time you have given me a reason to say  hang on a  minute mate
Yours follower  Bec

[Shock]

Welcome to the forum, let us know what he got wrong a detailed response. His eight reasons are listed below the video in the show notes. Your 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 responses are framing statements, not arguments against his points.

Perhaps if you give good reasons against his points he will do a follow up video.

[chindi-ap]

Reasonably good battery life...
Can't remember the last time I changed the battery sort of thing.

[Fungus]

Reasonably good battery life...
Can't remember the last time I changed the battery sort of thing.

That's not exclusive to Fluke though. I've got $20 Chinese meters that have never had a battery change and those freebie DT830s go forever.

[AG6QR]

A carpenter doesn't buy the cheapest hammer, a lumberjack doesn't buy the cheapest chainsaw.

I would love to be with you on this one but this is not what I have seen at least here in Can land. All those guys show up with the bottom of the barrel tools, the best they may carry is Dewalt. As a DYI my tools are better - Hilti, Fein, Milwaukee.

Topic drift alert!

In photography I've observed that prudent professionals invest in equipment which they believe will give them a monetary payback in fairly short order. Hobbyists with means are under no such fiscal constraints, and will sometimes purchase items of beauty to satisfy their lust for gear, even when it would make no business sense. So the very best exotic gear may go to the hobbyists, while prudent working professionals generally use stuff that's very good, but not necessarily the very top of the line.

Furthermore, there are different kinds of professionals.  Photojournalists need something that's rugged, dependable, and fast, but resolution beyond what's needed for a newspaper or computer screen is wasted. Nature photographers selling huge prints of beautiful landscapes in art galleries may want superb resolution, but have less need for speed. Those who work in a portrait studio don't need weather resistance nor a wide range of focal lengths, but may value the ability to instantly beam the pictures to a computer for quick viewing on a large screen and quick completion of a sale.

Finally, not all independent professionals make optimal decisions on gear acquisition.  The ones who stay in business for a long time at least avoid decisions that would be financially ruinous, though.

Trying to steer myself back toward the Fluke meters topic, a handheld multimeter should be an almost trivial investment for any service professional, compared to the cost of a truck, for example.  Dave's video was largely talking about laboratories, military/government institutions, or other types of large institutions.  Those customers may value consistency, long product lifetime, traceability, etc. more than the lone independent appliance repairman who comes to a house to diagnose and fix a washing machine. But in my experience, most of the appliance repair people are also using a Fluke, perhaps a 100 series, or maybe a T5 or T6 type tester.

Anyway, the bigger point is that our own individual requirements and values may or may not line up so closely with the criteria used by those who chose a Fluke.

[EEVblog]

Pre-release:

[Ed.Kloonk]

You know how some people say you can't take it with you?

I'm taking my 179 with me.

[EEVblog]

You know how some people say you can't take it with you?
I'm taking my 179 with me.

Imagine archeologists digging you up in 1000 years time...

[nctnico]

Trying to steer myself back toward the Fluke meters topic, a handheld multimeter should be an almost trivial investment for any service professional, compared to the cost of a truck, for example.  Dave's video was largely talking about laboratories, military/government institutions, or other types of large institutions.  Those customers may value consistency, long product lifetime, traceability, etc. more than the lone independent appliance repairman who comes to a house to diagnose and fix a washing machine.

Still, Fluke is not the only A-brand selling multimeters. Keysight also has a large range.

[EEVblog]

Hi i think you missed the mark here
1 all company's and sol-traders can write the cost off against  income Tax
2 one is investing in one on fortune 
3 every thing has a cost and then there is the price one pays
4 in your vid you make very good points
5 yes i am a fluke fan boy
6 my main concern is Balance & bios of the vid   
7 my background is automotive and have followed your channel all most from the beginning and in that time this is the only time you have given me a reason to say  hang on a  minute mate
Yours follower  Bec

As Shock said, please elaborate on how you think I've "missed the mark"
The only thing I can take of value here is "6 my main concern is Balance & bios of the vid". What is wrong with the "balance" exactly? Yet before that you say "4 in your vid you make very good points" 

1. Tax has nothing really to do with it, you can write a cheap tool off or an expensive tool. They doesn't help explain why Fluke's cost so much.

[EEVblog]

Trying to steer myself back toward the Fluke meters topic, a handheld multimeter should be an almost trivial investment for any service professional, compared to the cost of a truck, for example.  Dave's video was largely talking about laboratories, military/government institutions, or other types of large institutions.  Those customers may value consistency, long product lifetime, traceability, etc. more than the lone independent appliance repairman who comes to a house to diagnose and fix a washing machine. But in my experience, most of the appliance repair people are also using a Fluke, perhaps a 100 series, or maybe a T5 or T6 type tester.

That's likely because they used one in their appenticeship, and they have seen others use them etc. Fluke pioneered rugged high quality meters, and that's still paying brand dividends to this day though what's now approaching the third generation of users.

[Fungus]

Hi i think you missed the mark here
1 all company's and sol-traders can write the cost off against  income Tax

Huh? An expensive meter still costs them more than cheap meter.

[nctnico]

Hi i think you missed the mark here
1 all company's and sol-traders can write the cost off against  income Tax

Huh? An expensive meter still costs them more than cheap meter.

Indeed. It is not like companies have unlimited funds as some people seem to think. OTOH buying good tools often means spending less on dealing with problems caused by cheaper tools. Real life example: an engineer at one of my customers once spend half a day trying to figure out why the power supplies in a batch of equipment was out of spec. Turns out he was using a cheap-ass multimeter that reads too high when the battery voltage is getting low  From that instance alone buying a Fluke would have been more cost effective.

[Fungus]

Turns out he was using a cheap-ass multimeter that reads too high when the battery voltage is getting low  From that instance alone buying a Fluke would have been more cost effective.

Can we name and shame these multimeters? I keep seeing tales like this posted here but it's always in a "friend-of-a-friend" way, just like those urban legends.

Can anybody give examples or meters that read wrong with low battery but when the battery indicator isn't lit up?

[nctnico]

Turns out he was using a cheap-ass multimeter that reads too high when the battery voltage is getting low  From that instance alone buying a Fluke would have been more cost effective.

Can we name and shame these multimeters? I keep seeing tales like this posted here but it's always in a "friend-of-a-friend" way, just like those urban legends.

It is definitely not an urban legend; I've seen it happen myself! I'll check the type & brand if I don't forget. I'll urge the particular customer to throw the DMMs into the trash and buy good ones.

[Martin72]

I knew this on differential probes, when they get "mad" cause the battery is running low...
Little hint for fluke 87 owner:

They don´t like 9V accus.....
Most of the avaible 9V accus have a voltage of 8.4V (7x1.2V).
This voltage seems to be hard on the threshold for low bat warning on the fluke 87, after appx 15 mins after turning on, the message appears although the accu was fully charged before.
You can get it much faster, when you use the continuity test range with beep signal...
It won´t measure wrong, but it will "suddenly" switching off - most of the time, when you really don´t need it...

[AG6QR]

Can we name and shame these multimeters? I keep seeing tales like this posted here but it's always in a "friend-of-a-friend" way, just like those urban legends.

Can anybody give examples or meters that read wrong with low battery but when the battery indicator isn't lit up?

I have a cheap Cen Tech meter which gives readings as much as 70% high when the battery voltage is low.  However, the battery indicator lights up, so some people might forgive the meter.  But if you're not looking for the battery indicator, or don't know what it means, you might believe the voltage displayed by the meter.  The battery indicator is just a picture of a battery, without any explicit description that something is wrong with the battery. If you weren't particularly familiar with the meter, you might think the picture of the battery means "meter is working on battery" or "battery is good". This is a bargain basement cheap meter targeted at the kind of people who will never become particularly familiar with any meter.

My Flukes, on the other hand, refuse to display an erroneous indication.  Instead, when the battery is too low, they just display a low battery indication and don't show any numbers that might be misinterpreted.  I strongly prefer this logic.  If a meter can sense that the battery voltage is too low, it should never display an incorrect reading, but instead just flash "Lo Batt" or something like that. Or shut down completely.

Here's a link to an eBay listing of the kind of meter that misbehaves.  I see similar meters with different branding frequently -- I suspect they all share the same internals.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/123902191530?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=123902191530&targetid=1262376589336&device=c

[Cerebus]

Also since the advent of mobile phones people have been inadvertently trained to first think of battery indicators as 'gas gauges'  and not immediately think of them as warning symbols.

[bdunham7]

Can anybody give examples or meters that read wrong with low battery but when the battery indicator isn't lit up?

That's moving the goalposts.  Nobody mentioned low battery indicators and I would interpret a low battery indicator as meaning 'replace the battery soon', not 'I'm going to lie to you'.

[Fungus]

Can anybody give examples or meters that read wrong with low battery but when the battery indicator isn't lit up?

That's moving the goalposts.  Nobody mentioned low battery indicators and I would interpret a low battery indicator as meaning 'replace the battery soon', not 'I'm going to lie to you'.

Whatever. It's certainly a subject worthy of further investigation. Firstly to ensure that no Fluke meter will do it and then to find out which other ones do.

Are we talking about some cheap, old, unobtanium meters (there were definitely some dodgy meters on sale 15-20 years ago) or are we talking about meters that people can buy today?

Is there any difference between "Aliexpress specials" (ie. Zotek/Aneng) and the no-name meters people might buy in Walmart?

This is definitely something that should be done in any serious multimeter review.

[Cerebus]

Can anybody give examples or meters that read wrong with low battery but when the battery indicator isn't lit up?

That's moving the goalposts.  Nobody mentioned low battery indicators and I would interpret a low battery indicator as meaning 'replace the battery soon', not 'I'm going to lie to you'.

My general expectation is that a battery indicator comes on to indicate "getting low" and flashes or assumes a distinctly different state to mean "replace battery now".

As has already been pointed out, the only acceptable behaviour for an instrument that can mis-read on low battery is to display only a low battery indicator, lock out the rest of the display and not offer a reading that is potentially invalid.

[nctnico]

Turns out he was using a cheap-ass multimeter that reads too high when the battery voltage is getting low  From that instance alone buying a Fluke would have been more cost effective.

Can we name and shame these multimeters? I keep seeing tales like this posted here but it's always in a "friend-of-a-friend" way, just like those urban legends.

It is definitely not an urban legend; I've seen it happen myself! I'll check the type & brand if I don't forget. I'll urge the particular customer to throw the DMMs into the trash and buy good ones.

I got round to checking the brand & model of the crappy DMM: 'BK Precision' model 388B

[bdunham7]

I got round to checking the brand & model of the crappy DMM: 'BK Precision' model 388B

Yikes!  That's not an ultra-cheapie, especially considering you don't get TRMS or auto-range with it.  But it does have hFE!

[Fungus]

I got round to checking the brand & model of the crappy DMM: 'BK Precision' model 388B

Yikes!  That's not an ultra-cheapie, especially considering you don't get TRMS or auto-range with it.  But it does have hFE!

That suggests another video: "Which expensive meters are complete and utter crap?"

What's the absolute worst bang-per-buck ratio on the market?

[bdunham7]

What's the absolute worst bang-per-buck ratio on the market?

I'd nominate this beauty.

https://www.grainger.com/product/MILWAUKEE-MILWAUKEE-R-2217-20-Series-5MLK1

I don't know that it doesn't work well, but compared to this the 'bang for buck' is pretty miserable.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000215450256.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.6e4beba3rsUci1&algo_pvid=541b6275-1d0a-4689-b9cc-fd06ed6acf6e&algo_exp_id=541b6275-1d0a-4689-b9cc-fd06ed6acf6e-0&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2210000000836519111%22%7D&pdp_pi=-1%3B23.0%3B-1%3B-1%40salePrice%3BUSD%3Bsearch-mainSearch

As for expensive 'utter crap' I'd nominate the Keysight handhelds that the displays all went bad on after few years.

[Fungus]

Do meters like that help with Fluke's reputation?

I mean you pay $180 for a meter thinking it ought to be a good one at that price, find out it's a pile of poo, then that becomes your yardstick?

Compared to that meter Flukes will suddenly seem like good value for money ("once bitten, twice shy") and all those $25 Chinese meters must be worthless garbage.

[Fungus]

I'd nominate this beauty.

https://www.grainger.com/product/MILWAUKEE-MILWAUKEE-R-2217-20-Series-5MLK1

It can be had for much less if you shop around:

https://www.plumbersstock.com/milwaukee-2217-20-digital-multimeter.html

I don't know that it doesn't work well, but compared to this the 'bang for buck' is pretty miserable.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000215450256.html

At that price? Snap 'em up while you still can! Seriously.

As for expensive 'utter crap' I'd nominate the Keysight handhelds that the displays all went bad on after few years.

There's a certain schadenfreude in that one.  Buy a "fashion" meter based on looks, expect it to last a fashionable amount of time.

[EEVblog]

That suggests another video: "Which expensive meters are complete and utter crap?"
What's the absolute worst bang-per-buck ratio on the market?

You'd have to redefine bang-by-buck, because it usually does not include build quality.
A meter could for example be excellent build quality and otherwise very nice, but have almost no features at a high price. That would mean it's crap, simply outstandingly poor bang-per-buck.

[Fungus]

That suggests another video: "Which expensive meters are complete and utter crap?"
What's the absolute worst bang-per-buck ratio on the market?

You'd have to redefine bang-by-buck, because it usually does not include build quality.
A meter could for example be excellent build quality and otherwise very nice, but have almost no features at a high price. That would mean it's crap, simply outstandingly poor bang-per-buck.

Sure, but a stinker is a stinker no matter how you look at it.

I was wondering what meter would you most regret buying. The meter that would make you cry every time your boss forced you to use it. The more expensive, the better, obviously. 

[Fungus]

The sales blurb for that BK Precision is quite ironic. They specifically claim "bang-per-buck".   



Even better: You can have it for half price if you buy it with NIST certificate! 

[EEVblog]

That suggests another video: "Which expensive meters are complete and utter crap?"
What's the absolute worst bang-per-buck ratio on the market?

You'd have to redefine bang-by-buck, because it usually does not include build quality.
A meter could for example be excellent build quality and otherwise very nice, but have almost no features at a high price. That would mean it's crap, simply outstandingly poor bang-per-buck.

Sure, but a stinker is a stinker no matter how you look at it.

But some people may genuinely value a simple feature high priced well built rugged meter. Remember the title of this thread.

[Fungus]

But some people may genuinely value a simple feature high priced well built rugged meter. Remember the title of this thread.

Right, so build quality is "bang" for them.

[nctnico]

That suggests another video: "Which expensive meters are complete and utter crap?"
What's the absolute worst bang-per-buck ratio on the market?

You'd have to redefine bang-by-buck, because it usually does not include build quality.
A meter could for example be excellent build quality and otherwise very nice, but have almost no features at a high price. That would mean it's crap, simply outstandingly poor bang-per-buck.

Sure, but a stinker is a stinker no matter how you look at it.

But some people may genuinely value a simple feature high priced well built rugged meter. Remember the title of this thread.

Indeed. Bonus points if you can trust the readings! I want a meter which I can trust fully; bells & whistles appear somewhere further down the list with priorities.

[Ed.Kloonk]

When I use my meter, it's more often than not in the most dark, terrible places to try and read the screen.

What I do like about the Fluke is the high contrast and enormous digits. And it can always take a good photo for evidence. The Fluke LCD is mentioned in the video.

My question is, what is in the Fluke screens that the others always seem to lack? Is it tied up with patents?

Sure they say the Fluke looks the part when you show up with one and yes I kinda agree. But with my eyes, the screen and the range switch I know I can trust when I've got my arm inside some dirty machine. I don't like any other meter when in that situation all costs considered.

I can't understand the point of putting in the effort to design a cheaper meter with better specs and then fall short on the readability.

[Fungus]

When I use my meter, it's more often than not in the most dark, terrible places to try and read the screen.

What I do like about the Fluke is the high contrast and enormous digits. And it can always take a good photo for evidence. The Fluke LCD is mentioned in the video.

My question is, what is in the Fluke screens that the others always seem to lack?

I don't think Fluke has any sort of monopoly on this. I've got $10 meters with much bigger digits and my blackest, highest contrast displays are on $4 DT830Bs.

My Brymen BM857 definitely has a better display than my Fluke 187.

The Fluke 287 is famously bad on the eyes.

I'm told it all mostly comes down to the number of segments in the display and degree of multiplexing. Less multiplexing=more contrast. More segments=more multiplexing.

[Fungus]

Indeed. Bonus points if you can trust the readings! I want a meter which I can trust fully; bells & whistles appear somewhere further down the list with priorities.

There's no evidence that Fluke has a monopoly there, either.

eg. Brymen seem to manage OK in that department.

[Shock]

Long term drift may still be a factor with Brymens. You would need data over several models over several years. You could assume Fluke pays more attention to component quality than most as they have longer product life cycles.

[Fungus]

Long term drift may still be a factor with Brymens.

What probability would you assign to that?

[Shock]

Likely. Fluke 87V is 18 years old that is a lot of data.

[mansaxel]

Here's a link to an eBay listing of the kind of meter that misbehaves.  I see similar meters with different branding frequently -- I suspect they all share the same internals.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/123902191530?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=123902191530&targetid=1262376589336&device=c

Transistor tester sockets on a "Cat II 750VAC" meter. Yeah, right. No wonder the meter misbehaves. Sortakinda comes with the quality bracket. And this is not the competition that Fluke needs to bother about, just to be clear.

I have 7 Flukes, 8020, 8022, 2x 8060, 10, 123, 28. They don't let you down. Simple as that. I also have 2 off Gossen MetraHit (14 and 25), and a hp 973a. They don't let you down either.

[rsjsouza]

A meter could for example be excellent build quality and otherwise very nice, but have almost no features at a high price. That would mean it's crap, simply outstandingly poor bang-per-buck.

This defines Fluke - poor feature set per price bracket, but people value robustness, track record, etc. especially their 10x series which has electrical robustness and it seems mechanically sound, although I had some quality problems with two 101s from them.

Likely. Fluke 87V is 18 years old that is a lot of data.

Although not as popular, my BM857 is 2003-manufactured (bought NOS in 2013) and is still spot on after 8 years in service (and stored in unknown conditions prior to that).

[Fungus]

Long term drift may still be a factor with Brymens.

What probability would you assign to that?

Likely. Fluke 87V is 18 years old that is a lot of data.

"Likely"? 

I'm not an expert but Brymens have been around a while, too, and the components inside Brymens are pretty much the same components as inside Flukes.

If Brymens were going out of spec then people would have noticed by now.

[Fungus]

Although not as popular, my BM857 is 2003-manufactured

I love my BM857... 

I'll let you all know if it ever differs from my Fluke 187 by more than a digit or so. Right now they both measure exactly the same.

(both are 50,000 counts)

[Martin72]

Did you ever give away your brymen for external calibration ?
I did, few weeks ago after buying.
They (Cal-Lab) must do some adjustments for reaching the specs although the meter was new.
At work, we got some real old fluke 87, one of them is a Fluke 87 model ONE.
It is in the calibration circle for decades and musn´t adjusted until now.
Always in it´s specs.
That separate the boys from the men.

[Shock]

I'm not an expert but Brymens have been around a while, too, and the components inside Brymens are pretty much the same components as inside Flukes.

If Brymens were going out of spec then people would have noticed by now.

We already have one out of spec and it's been a day!
Joking, but it all depends where Brymen gets it's parts from.

I like the Brymen 869s. Not sure about the others though. I'll stick with "likely" for now and if proven wrong will be good for Fluke to have competition and make the Fluke 189II and 189 MAX.

[EEVblog]

I'm not an expert but Brymens have been around a while, too, and the components inside Brymens are pretty much the same components as inside Flukes.

If Brymens were going out of spec then people would have noticed by now.

We already have one out of spec and it's been a day!
Joking, but it all depends where Brymen gets it's parts from.

I like the Brymen 869s. Not sure about the others though. I'll stick with "likely" for now and if proven wrong will be good for Fluke to have competition and make the Fluke 189II and 189 MAX.

For those interested, as a large Brymen seller, there is certainly a not insignificant failure/return rate with them. I should have kept proper numbers on this, but I'd estimate a 0.1 to 0.2% failure rate. None of them have ever been reported as drifting or beign slightly out of cal, it's always some other failure mode. IIRC about three main chip failures.

[mansaxel]

For those interested, as a large Brymen seller, there is certainly a not insignificant failure/return rate with them. I should have kept proper numbers on this, but I'd estimate a 0.1 to 0.2% failure rate. None of them have ever been reported as drifting or beign slightly out of cal, it's always some other failure mode. IIRC about three main chip failures.

This is where a good reseller adds value; they can get some insights into product reliability where numbers matter; turning anecdotes into fact, or debunking them. 

This is data that the manufacturer might want to keep under wraps or maybe (in the case the product has a hard-to-utilise warranty, meaning it gets scrapped) does not have. The good resellers are transparent about what they learn as well.
 

To get to a guesstimated failure rate describable in tenths of a percent, one typically needs to have sold about 5000 of something, per model. Good on ya!

[Fungus]

For those interested, as a large Brymen seller, there is certainly a not insignificant failure/return rate with them. I should have kept proper numbers on this, but I'd estimate a 0.1 to 0.2% failure rate. None of them have ever been reported as drifting or beign slightly out of cal, it's always some other failure mode. IIRC about three main chip failures.

Were they DOA or did they take time to fail?

PS: Do you still have the three Brymens you reviewed in video #432 ?

[EEVblog]

For those interested, as a large Brymen seller, there is certainly a not insignificant failure/return rate with them. I should have kept proper numbers on this, but I'd estimate a 0.1 to 0.2% failure rate. None of them have ever been reported as drifting or beign slightly out of cal, it's always some other failure mode. IIRC about three main chip failures.

Were they DOA or did they take time to fail?
PS: Do you still have the three Brymens you reviewed in video #432 ?

Most took time to fail, although there have been a couple of DOA or Dodgy On Arrival.
Should still have those meters somewhere.

[GuidoK]

Did you ever give away your brymen for external calibration ?
I did, few weeks ago after buying.
They (Cal-Lab) must do some adjustments for reaching the specs although the meter was new.
At work, we got some real old fluke 87, one of them is a Fluke 87 model ONE.
It is in the calibration circle for decades and musn´t adjusted until now.
Always in it´s specs.
That separate the boys from the men.

I have my bm869s calibrated annually.
It always meets its specs, but even then, its a choice whether or not you also have it aligned.
Those are 2 different aspects.
Which model of yours had to be aligned and by how much on which value?

BTW I sometimes also doubt the calibration labs, although they are accredited by the national measuring institute and of course have very nice equipment etc etc.
There are times when I put the calibration reports next to eachother, and the first year a lot of values are adjusted upwards for a certain amont, and the next year, those same values are adjusted down with virtually the same amount that they were previously adjusted upwards. But they are small amounts, within the factory accuracy range.
Probably next year I'll try welectron. (I'm now using another lab in the netherlands.)
First investigate what exactly is the difference between a DAKKS calibration and an ISO17025 calibration....

I can imagine that a fluke might be cheaper to calibrate, as every lab can do them (they usually have both calibrators and software from fluke, and with the software some meters can virtually be calibrated automatically), and finding a lab that can do fluke's is certainly easier (however the brymen calibration protocol can be found online and any real lab should know how to use that)
However Welectron offers an iso17025 calibration for €58 ex vat. That's pretty cheap.

[Martin72]

Which model of yours had to be aligned and by how much on which value?

I gave my 869s back to welectron where I´ve bought it from, they´d send it away for calibration for a fixed price.
On which ranges I must have a look at the calibration report.

It always meets its specs, but even then, its a choice whether or not you also have it aligned.

Sure you have the choice to let the deviation as it is - as a private person.
Me, I got no choice as they did it "automatically" - When it´s cost not more, and it didn´t cost no more, my bonus..
At work, our external calibration service handle it in another way.
They test it and when it "fails", it fails, no re-adjustments will be done.
When I buy a new meter, I expect to have it in its own specified ranges, at least for a year or longer.
Therefore it was a suprise to me, as the meter came back with the protocol and remarks.
I would expect that when buying something from Uni-T, but not from Brymen.

BTW I sometimes also doubt the calibration labs, although they are accredited by the national measuring institute and of course have very nice equipment etc etc.

No need to have a doubt about it...
When it´s an accredited lab, theyr calibration references are above the ISO standard vulgo Dakks, which makes sense.

First investigate what exactly is the difference between a DAKKS calibration and an ISO17025 calibration....

Have fun...
The only thing I know is that it´s the worldwide reference standard, accepted from everyone including MIL purposes.

[GuidoK]

So did you already take a look at the calibration report on which ranges your meter failed?

tbh I think it's strange that at your workplace they dont realign the meters if they fall out of spec.
The realignment procedure is part of the meter's featureset and supported by the manufacturer.

That said, I sometimes have my doubt at these procedures, or the capabilities of calibration labs when I see multiple times in a row that the one year the meter gets adjusted a few µV up and the next year it gets adjusted virtually the same amount of µV down again and the year following it gets adjusted up again.
And not only with meters, I also have a precision shunt from Isabellenhütte on which I have annually calibrated at 20amps and also there I see fluctuations higher than I expected. But maybe it's just me.
I plan to switch calibration labs and see if this trend continues and is normal if I can find a lab that can do both within desired parameters.

[Muttley Snickers]

Free shipping!   

[Ed.Kloonk]

Free shipping!   

Chuck in a few spare fuses and we might have a deal.

[Scherms]

Expensive for some, maybe...

I bought an 'as new' but damaged Fluke 88v a while back that had an Eprom Error from GSM phone frequency exposure and it was sold dead 'for parts'...



I paid just under $50 US for this 88v and promptly sent it into Fluke Celemetrix in Sydney for the fixed rate $185 AUD repair. What I got back was a new version 11 (GSM proof) main board + calibration (with certificate), new holster, port covers, battery and CDRom. An almost new and complete Fluke 88v for $230 AUD, a saving of $788 AUD... not bad!

https://triplepoint.com.au/product/fluke-88v-deluxe-automotive-multimeter-2/

PS: Dave's discovery of a new 'free' mod of the ad737 RMS controller chip to force RMS function on this averaging unit makes my 'smart' purchase 88v now possibly as accurate as the 87v " ... chicken dinner"!



https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1448-convert-a-fluke-77-iv-to-true-rms-for-10-cents/msg3936022/#msg3936022







 

[EEVblog]

Expensive for some, maybe...
I bought an 'as new' but damaged Fluke 88v a while back that had an Eprom Error from GSM phone frequency exposure and it was sold dead 'for parts'...
I paid just under $50 US for this 88v and promptly sent it into Fluke Celemetrix in Sydney for the fixed rate $185 AUD repair. What I got back was a new version 11 (GSM proof) main board + calibration (with certificate), new holster, port covers, battery and CDRom.

Crazy cheap!

[nightfire]

No need to have a doubt about it...
When it´s an accredited lab, theyr calibration references are above the ISO standard vulgo Dakks, which makes sense.

First investigate what exactly is the difference between a DAKKS calibration and an ISO17025 calibration....

Have fun...
The only thing I know is that it´s the worldwide reference standard, accepted from everyone including MIL purposes.

The ISO cal. ist basically a calibration to the standards the lab uses- DAKKS cal. is traceable (with papertrail) to some national standards, therefore it should have a better guaranteed precision and reproduceability between different labs.
IMHO only important when doing some very precise work or in fields where customers demand some crazy long papertrail for everything...

[james_s]

I have 7 Flukes, 8020, 8022, 2x 8060, 10, 123, 28. They don't let you down. Simple as that. I also have 2 off Gossen MetraHit (14 and 25), and a hp 973a. They don't let you down either.

That's pretty much what it comes down to. Fluke meters are cheap! Amortized over the ~12 years or so I've had my Fluke 87-III the cost was peanuts, I use it almost every day. I've dropped it on the floor, knocked it off ladders and accidentally probed 240VAC on the resistance range. It still looks and works like new, I trust it and never feel I have to question what it tells me. That's an absolute bargain in my mind.

[Cerebus]

I've dropped it on the floor, knocked it off ladders and accidentally probed 240VAC on the resistance range.

So basically you're saying "Don't lend James your multimeter.". 

[Ed.Kloonk]

I've dropped it on the floor, knocked it off ladders and accidentally probed 240VAC on the resistance range.

So basically you're saying "Don't lend James your multimeter.". 

Never let anyone borrow your wife or your tools...

[james_s]

So basically you're saying "Don't lend James your multimeter.". 

I wouldn't ask to borrow someone's expensive meter. It isn't a bench meter though, it's an industrial handheld and it gets used in the field as it was designed to be used. I don't abuse it intentionally but stuff happens.