eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)

[EEVblog]

The Verge just took Apple to task over their new authorised repair tools and manuals and parts as part of Right to Repair. Are they giving Apple a fair suck of the sav?

[ataradov]

This whole thing is just malicious compliance. Nobody wanted that. All we need is for the non-apple service centers to be able to repair the phones.

iPad Rehab did a comprehensive overview of this kit. One of the biggest gotchas there is that after you replace the screen you have to agree to a EULA stating that you allow apple to get all your data from the phone. And if you don't like that, you are stuck.

But yes, the price of the equipment is actually surprisingly low.

[sleemanj]

High time that user-replacable batteries were mandatory in phones, you should need no tools except a screwdriver at most.  Having to go through all that extreme disassembly just to replace a cell, madness.

[EEVblog]

This whole thing is just malicious compliance. Nobody wanted that. All we need is for the non-apple service centers to be able to repair the phones.

I agree wiht the last part.
I wouldn't call releasing your repair manuals and selling your in-house repair jigs at very low prices "malicious compliance" though. It's simply not enough, and as you say not really want people wanted.

[firewalker]

Does Apple ship outside USA. E.g. EU.

Alexander.

[PKTKS]

Answering the question:

YES Apple is not serious.

THIS  IS a muck

Paul

[thm_w]

True malicious compliance would be pricing it so high no one uses the service ($500 battery).

I disagree slightly when people say "but if we had the schematics". To repair a phone, schematics are near useless. Access to the parts, proprietary charge ICs, and reflashing software is far more valuable.

I think if Apple can add more parts (Rossman noted the charge port was not for sale) at reasonable prices, and not immediately discontinue them when they release a new phone, its a fair effort.

[ataradov]

The rental thing is priced exactly as the cost of service in the Apple authorized center. Who in their right mind would ship around multiple pelican cases to perform the repair just to break even with the service center? This is a nonsense offer to humor the journalists.  The part where they sell the same equipment is fine.

But the bigger issue is availability of the components. As it is right now this program has a very limited usability. We'll see if it gets better.

[EEVblog]

The rental thing is priced exactly as the cost of service in the Apple authorized center. Who in their right mind would ship around multiple pelican cases to perform the repair just to break even with the service center? This is a nonsense offer to humor the journalists.  The part where they sell the same equipment is fine.

But the bigger issue is availability of the components. As it is right now this program has a very limited usability. We'll see if it gets better.

Hardly anyone wants the ability to repair the product themselves. What they do want is the option to go to their local service place and have them fix it at a reasonable price.
The problem is that Joe Public does not have visibility of the actual issues like schematics, parts availability, and component serialisation that plauge the industry.

[bd139]

This isn't malicious compliance. You can still buy the parts from them and use whatever tools you want.

The tools are offered because it's quite difficult to build a device with the required sealing and robustness and repair it properly. Joe random down the local market will be able to replace the screen on your phone but you don't know what screen you're getting and if it's going to be installed correctly. Next time you're out in the rain your iPhone drops dead because of water ingress, what are you going to do?

My 13 pro goes out hiking with me. It is used in very heavy rain as a mapping device constantly to the point the case is actually full of water for 4-5 hours. I wouldn't risk a 3rd party repair on it.

From an internal source I know they have been working on this for nearly 3 years quietly so the intent is there but it's a complicated problem to solve. Macs are coming next. The new macs are quite repairable (tear tags for batteries, fully replaceable ports on daughterboards etc). I know people complain about the RAM and SSD being soldered but they don't work even remotely the same way as PCs so you need to change your expectations on what parts should be replaceable.

As for if my daughter or me break our iPhones, Apple will send a new one out for next day and you pop the old one in the box and send it back. That's as much of a crap I give about this, and that is more than most, and I love to repair things. A recent discussion in the pub about right to repair was met with glazed eyes from most people. 99% of people don't upgrade anything and don't care and they drive the market.

[eti]

This isn't malicious compliance. You can still buy the parts from them and use whatever tools you want.

The tools are offered because it's quite difficult to build a device with the required sealing and robustness and repair it properly. Joe random down the local market will be able to replace the screen on your phone but you don't know what screen you're getting and if it's going to be installed correctly. Next time you're out in the rain your iPhone drops dead because of water ingress, what are you going to do?

My 13 pro goes out hiking with me. It is used in very heavy rain as a mapping device constantly to the point the case is actually full of water for 4-5 hours. I wouldn't risk a 3rd party repair on it.

From an internal source I know they have been working on this for nearly 3 years quietly so the intent is there but it's a complicated problem to solve. Macs are coming next. The new macs are quite repairable (tear tags for batteries, fully replaceable ports on daughterboards etc). I know people complain about the RAM and SSD being soldered but they don't work even remotely the same way as PCs so you need to change your expectations on what parts should be replaceable.

As for if my daughter or me break our iPhones, Apple will send a new one out for next day and you pop the old one in the box and send it back. That's as much of a crap I give about this, and that is more than most, and I love to repair things. A recent discussion in the pub about right to repair was met with glazed eyes from most people. 99% of people don't upgrade anything and don't care and they drive the market.

This.is probably the only sensible, sane and balanced reply this thread will see. Print it out and frame it, before it gets lost in a sea of ignorant "offended" hogwash.

[eti]

All the internet sheep have learnt a new phrase, and are now parroting it all over the place... how easy people are to brainwash, it's comical, so here's a comic:

[kripton2035]

Does Apple ship outside USA. E.g. EU.

Alexander.

not for now.

[AndyBeez]

Reality check, these repair tools are not for the casual user. These are professional tools for use by trained technicians who do change outs (and parts validations) every day.

Even tech head readers of the EEVblog will be minded just how easily they could mangle a phone using these lumps. More so than joe public who thinks all you need to work in a genius bar is a bright smile and the ability to say "sick" every other word.

Imagine if GM did a R2R fix your clutch at home service?  Imagine the size of the flight cases that would arrive? Place vehicle in trolley jack assembly and set timer to 30 seconds, then remove engine using special hydraulic pry tool....

This will die a death, along with many servicable phones.  Then the litigation will begin; you said I could replace my battery?! Eventually the tool sets will end up in the hands of mobile repair stores who have the time and experience to leverage them correctly. Which how R2R is meant to be.

[golden_labels]

I side with Dave here. The tools are meant for to be used by repair shops and for that purpose the pricing is reasonable. This does break a part of Apple’s monopoly, so it’s also a step towards the goal.

What worries me is that it also feels like Apple’s attempt to employ “if you can’t beat it, take it over”. They can no longer hold their position. So a sane decision is to embrace the right to repair idea and make sure the company keeps control over as much aspects of it as possible.

[ataradov]

Repair shops will not rent pelican cases every time they need to fix a phone. This makes no sense at all. The pricing to buy the tools is very good, I agree here.

But the whole idea of renting and shipping a kit at the same cost as a repair in the authorized center is just dumb.

[bd139]

I think the reason they rent the tools out is to stop people complaining about how expensive the tools are because it's not even a discussion point now. If they turned up on the market with just the service manuals, parts and service tools which could only be bought then everyone would be waving their arms around complaining.

Your second point nails it. Pay an authorized repairer to do the same job. If they balls it up, it's on them to make it good, not you.

[eti]

It’s comical to see all these “Apple expert YouTubers” (what even does that mean?) suddenly appear to be VERY VERY much out of their depth with regard to basic electronic module swapping (it’s not engineering!)

Anyone can be an “unboxing” expert, and parrot specs - there’s a billion channels that all RACE to be the first to upload what is, essentially, a wholly unnecessary copycat video that their peers made on the same subject, with little or nothing extra to add. Its one thing to do the aforementioned and it takes little skill, apart from editing and camera shots (which anyone can do tbh), it’s another to be balanced of mind, fair (as Dave was in his video; yes I mean that, and I don’t kiss ass to anyone) and competent with years of experience in knowing why custom assemblies and jigs are needed and why each of them is designed to execute a certain step reliably, uniformly and with the knowledge that the processed output repair unit will be a known quantity with regard to uniformity of repair and repeatability of said process, once muscle memory, refinement of workflow and time & motion have been optimised.

Quinn of “Snazzy Labs” seems to be the most sane and balanced reviewer of this process and tools.

Any old chap can, and does, use a spudger and a hairdryer to effect these repairs. Personally I’d either do this myself to an older iPhone (and have), knowing that my repair wasn’t “to spec” but accepting that it’s not perfect, but if I had a new (1-3 yrs) device, I ain’t never gonna do anything except send it to Apple; life’s short and my time more precious than £££. Having been a repair assistant for pre-smartphone phones in the early 2ks, and having done my own repairs back before then, and seeing what happens in “professional” shops… erm no thanks, I’ll send it to Apple or sell it for parts.

If it’s gonna cost me too much, I’ll sell it for parts (if I had new iPhone, which I don’t; I see no extra value over the FREE iPhone 8 a kind friend gave me) and get on with my life.

Let’s remember, it’s just a phone. That’s ALL it is. Yeah it can do a lot of “things”, but so can a 5 yr old model, and the rest is spoilt brat territory.


If I owned an Apple repair shop, I’d certainly invest in these tools. Having a reputation of doing and live-streaming repairs using OFFICIAL Apple made and supplied repair tools, is going to help your business no end. Knowing I’m doing something according to recommended practice, in all aspects of the work, boosts my confidence and speed with which I get the job out of the door, KNOWING IN MY CONSCIENCE that I’ve not bodged it or taken shortcuts because I’m too skinflint to invest in proper kit for the job.

[eti]

I think that Apple should supply an Unpopulated logic board, Solder paste, stencils, reflow oven, all components, separate screws in bags, rest the components all in bags, Instructions and a scheme like this, under the title “build your own iPhone for 30% of The price of a retail unit“


People would still complain, that’s all they know how to do

[EEVblog]

Repair shops will not rent pelican cases every time they need to fix a phone. This makes no sense at all. The pricing to buy the tools is very good, I agree here.
But the whole idea of renting and shipping a kit at the same cost as a repair in the authorized center is just dumb.

Obviously Apple wanted to shut a certain subset of people by at least offering the rental service and absorbing the shipping cost. Seems to have backfired with the Verge article, as they complained it was silly.
There is actually a use case for renting it IF you didn't have give apple access to your phone to finish the job, and that reason is data security.

[ataradov]

But you have to give them access, which renders the whole thing plain stupid.

And I also don''t buy that "it is hard to ship things" and "it took us years to prepare this". They are constantly being praised as having the best logistics ever selling billions of devices every year. And they could not figure out how to ship a few spare parts? Yeah, right. Talk to Mouser if you can't handle shipping parts worldwide, they seem to have no issues doing that.

But hey, apparently it worked on enough people to keep defending apple.

[eti]

Repair shops will not rent pelican cases every time they need to fix a phone. This makes no sense at all. The pricing to buy the tools is very good, I agree here.
But the whole idea of renting and shipping a kit at the same cost as a repair in the authorized center is just dumb.

Obviously Apple wanted to shut a certain subset of people by at least offering the rental service and absorbing the shipping cost. Seems to have backfired with the Verge article, as they complained it was silly.
There is actually a use case for renting it IF you didn't have give apple access to your phone to finish the job, and that reason is data security.

Yes of course. Why this out of band (via phone call and not downloading an app or client) binding  of all the serials of the parts approved and supplied & tracked for the repair is kept out of band, by making people call up, is obvious to those who understand Apples chain of trust etc - their ENTIRE OS is based on security. Apples reputation is not to cave into even law enforcement requests for data. Their reputation is trust, and trust comes crashing down to a meaningless pile of rubble when you undermine it for the sake of kowtowing to bribes and pressure.

The very tool that verifies the repair, signs it off and marries all the parts together (“binding”) needs to be ONLY accessible my apple. Imagine the chaos if a user hacked and patched it, allowing it to bind serials of parts of dubious provenance (Huawei ring a bell?) - this could quickly unravel Apples entire chain of trust, ergo reputation.

So many people just want convenience, and fail to grasp why this is similar to why Apple devices ask one to sign in SO frequently..: VERIFICATION!

Certain actions on iOS devices require me to verify my Mac password AND the iPhone PIN for a randomly  selected device I own, before proceeding.  Apple are far smarter than all these folks who’ve not taken the time to see the overall picture.

[eti]

But you have to give them access, which renders the whole thing plain stupid.

And I also don''t buy that "it is hard to ship things" and "it took us years to prepare this". They are constantly being praised as having the best logistics ever selling billions of devices every year. And they could not figure out how to ship a few spare parts? Yeah, right. Talk to Mouser if you can't handle shipping parts worldwide, they seem to have no issues doing that.

But hey, apparently it worked on enough people to keep defending apple.

Do some reading on Apple supply chain prowess… it’s the stuff of legend. Then again if it doesn’t suit your agenda, never mind.

[bd139]

But you have to give them access, which renders the whole thing plain stupid.

And I also don''t buy that "it is hard to ship things" and "it took us years to prepare this". They are constantly being praised as having the best logistics ever selling billions of devices every year. And they could not figure out how to ship a few spare parts? Yeah, right. Talk to Mouser if you can't handle shipping parts worldwide, they seem to have no issues doing that.

But hey, apparently it worked on enough people to keep defending apple.

Well Mouser are having some serious supply chain problems at the moment. There are 40 week lead times on two things I need and they are not really that uncommon. I had to buy off a reputable UK ebay seller in the end (yitry / Langrex).

Another comparison now is Lenovo who already operate a global supply chain business. They did not have parts supply for two on-site service events recently I was dealing with. That was one replacement battery and one replacement screen under next business day warranty. And you can't actually order replacement machines without a 2 month lead time either. I can go in an Apple store and walk out same day with a macbook or get one repaired fine

Global supply chain around Covid is hell so I think you need to consider that in the picture. It probably would have been delivered quicker without that situation.

But to note it was delivered when they said it would be, as it always is with Apple, and it worked out of the box...

[madires]

Apple is just trying to sooth politicians to prevent more or more stringent right-to-repair laws. Yes, they give you a fancy tool box, a few spare parts and a manual. But this is all and very limited. They don't sell a specific connector or IC. It's still the same old Apple way to control everything to maximize profit. Car analogy: Oh, your generator is broken. You can get this replacement motor block plus a cool tool kit for DIY. Or a licensed garage could repair it for an all-inclusive price about the same as a complete motor block. But we won't sell the generator, neither to you nor to your independent garage.