eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)

[bd139]

The car analogy is stupid and needs to go away. Cars are mostly made of very large and simple parts. High tech items are made of very small and very complicated parts. Some bits of cars are made of very small and very complicated parts. The mechanic just replaces those too. At no point do they replace a specific connector or IC. This is bias because you know how to are or interested in it. Most mechanics and end users don't care; they want the device returned to original condition for a known price.

Fundamentally right to repair is a stupid idea if you ask me. It doesn't really help the end user who just wants their device repaired. All it does is allow some loud repair businesses to carry on operating in rapidly declining market situations. I've said this a thousand times before but it should go away and be replaced by actual meaningful legislation that does the following:

1. Mandates a reasonable lifetime for all goods.
2. Mandates fitness for purpose of the goods for the entire lifetime.
3. Mandates service and support for hardware and software during that time with realistic constraints on repair costs and turnaround.
4. Mandates proportional buy back for used devices which do not meet the above standards.
5. Mandates that the manufacturer has to buy the item back from the user at the end of life for material value and recycling.

That's what the end user wants: to protect their investment.

What is worse is what I call "repair poverty". When someone buys a bottom end device, be it a washing machine or smart phone, they are basically sold junk with a known lifetime from the manufacturer. The end game is the repair involves buying a new device or a large proportional cost of the device for a completely unsupported repair. They can't afford that scenario. That is how most of the people on this planet run their lives.

The legislation changes I propose eliminates that. Right to repair does not. In fact it allows manufacturers to ship a 1y warranty and then shirk the responsibility for the device onto the very variable quality repair market.

[madires]

The car analogy is stupid and needs to go away. Cars are mostly made of very large and simple parts. High tech items are made of very small and very complicated parts. Some bits of cars are made of very small and very complicated parts. The mechanic just replaces those too. At no point do they replace a specific connector or IC. This is bias because you know how to are or interested in it. Most mechanics and end users don't care; they want the device returned to original condition for a known price.

Over here there are repair shops specialized in repairing ECUs. Your mechanic can simply buy a new ECU from the car manufacturer for 1k bucks or get it fixed by the ECU repair shop for 300 bucks. Do you prefer to pay 1k or just 300?

[eti]

Do ECUs contain very personal and sensitive data? You folks are dummies. Wake up and change your analogies.

[madires]

They do (modern ones), unfortunately.

[bd139]

The car analogy is stupid and needs to go away. Cars are mostly made of very large and simple parts. High tech items are made of very small and very complicated parts. Some bits of cars are made of very small and very complicated parts. The mechanic just replaces those too. At no point do they replace a specific connector or IC. This is bias because you know how to are or interested in it. Most mechanics and end users don't care; they want the device returned to original condition for a known price.

Over here there are repair shops specialized in repairing ECUs. Your mechanic can simply buy a new ECU from the car manufacturer for 1k bucks or get it fixed by the ECU repair shop for 300 bucks. Do you prefer to pay 1k or just 300?

Using proportional values, I know someone who paid the 300 bucks and it failed again after 3 months. The answer was to pay another 300 bucks or pay the 1000 bucks. YMMV on repairs, which is the point. Better to replace and cover that with insurance.

But realistically, my car is still under extended warranty so this is a non issue for me. It's basically AppleCare for your car 

[madires]

Regarding the 'privacy' and 'data protection' arguments:

iPad Rehab did a comprehensive overview of this kit. One of the biggest gotchas there is that after you replace the screen you have to agree to a EULA stating that you allow apple to get all your data from the phone. And if you don't like that, you are stuck.

Ooopsi! No privacy for you!

[bd139]

I’d like to see the EULA terms for that before I take information third or fourth hand.

Secondarily I know they have my data. I’m paying for them to host my email, calendars, tasks, files. 

[AndyBeez]

To me the issue with iphones and ipads is

• The screen digitiser is made of glass
• The battery has a finite service life
• Access to the internal parts is destructive
• After a few years of IOS updates repairing is a pointless exercise

The inconvenient truth is high tech consumer hardware is already beyond economic repair before it develops a fault. Business and industrial level hardware has a service level built into the costings. So if you're buying a combine harvester, you can expect all of the parts to be held in a warehouse somewhere. Which is why combine harvesters cost so much.

For high street consumers though, there is only the chance to extend a warantee period. Which is a value added cash cow for the retail chain. All that gets fixed for consumers, is the price. There is no actual chance of their defective device being repaired in a fully equipped service center because that's just uneconomic. They'll either get a new one or, their deflated money back.

For high street consumer level products, R2R should be less about what service centers need to do their jobs (schematics, parts, tools, certifications, skillsets) and more about managing consumer expectations.

High street consumers who spend large amounts of their income on devices will not be willing to accept that, should they need it, the products they own are irrepairable by default. Their car can be fixed. Their boiler can be fixed. Even their left knee joint can be fixed. So why is their tablet device as disposable as an e-cig?

Fundemental to solving the R2R debate might be a closer consideration of the relationship between producer and consumer. From a marketing perspective, this needs to be less opaque and more re-cyclic? Consumers are more likley to accept planned obsolescence if, they know what happens when their products have reached end-of-life - even prematurely by dropping into the ocean. But then this gets into the minefield of who owns your phone? Cue Louis Rossmann...

Should R2R be the right to repair and recycle?

[SilverSolder]

The car analogy is stupid and needs to go away. Cars are mostly made of very large and simple parts. High tech items are made of very small and very complicated parts. Some bits of cars are made of very small and very complicated parts. The mechanic just replaces those too. At no point do they replace a specific connector or IC. This is bias because you know how to are or interested in it. Most mechanics and end users don't care; they want the device returned to original condition for a known price.

Fundamentally right to repair is a stupid idea if you ask me. It doesn't really help the end user who just wants their device repaired. All it does is allow some loud repair businesses to carry on operating in rapidly declining market situations. I've said this a thousand times before but it should go away and be replaced by actual meaningful legislation that does the following:

1. Mandates a reasonable lifetime for all goods.
2. Mandates fitness for purpose of the goods for the entire lifetime.
3. Mandates service and support for hardware and software during that time with realistic constraints on repair costs and turnaround.
4. Mandates proportional buy back for used devices which do not meet the above standards.
5. Mandates that the manufacturer has to buy the item back from the user at the end of life for material value and recycling.

That's what the end user wants: to protect their investment.

What is worse is what I call "repair poverty". When someone buys a bottom end device, be it a washing machine or smart phone, they are basically sold junk with a known lifetime from the manufacturer. The end game is the repair involves buying a new device or a large proportional cost of the device for a completely unsupported repair. They can't afford that scenario. That is how most of the people on this planet run their lives.

The legislation changes I propose eliminates that. Right to repair does not. In fact it allows manufacturers to ship a 1y warranty and then shirk the responsibility for the device onto the very variable quality repair market.

I like your five mandates, but the "right to repair" still makes a degree of sense, especially for older stuff that is being kept alive beyond the design life (which is also a right that people expect to have).  E.g. if you have an old Ford, it would be unafFordable to take it to the local dealership for all needed repairs, whereas independent garages make it viable.

[madires]

Should R2R be the right to repair and recycle?

Possibly! We have to shift from disposable e-junk to sustainable products as our resources are limited. There is no other viable way. Back to Apple. They are also trying hard to prevent broken/old devices to be recycled, more specificly, preventing parts to be reused as spares. The recyclers Apple hired have to shredder everything. It's not just Apple, but they are leading the whole pack in ruining our future for a few bucks more profit.

[AndyBeez]

Consumer R2R is niche because consumer devices are  reliable. Contrast a 1980s CRT TV with a 2020 Oled TV. This is why the backstreet TV repair stores went extinct. Not due to a lack of schematics but, because TVs just stopped blowing up. Back in the day we never owned a crt TV, we always rented as (frequent) repair was included in the contract. Now if a TV fails, we ask Siri to find the cheapest deal. When someone invents break proof graphene glass, most mobile repair stores will be unsustainable.

Meanwhile, the age of the SMD has driven factory costs and retail prices down. Just means you need a diploma in micro soldering to affect repairs or hacks. It's no longer a time when you can fix a through hole PCB with a BC108 and a reel of 60/40. You need specialist hardware. And need to charge out accordingly.

I don't think there ever was a natural right to repair. It was just that the technology was at a level of simplicity that we could repair it. Even VCRs were big enough to attack with a desolder pump. I learned electronics in the back of TV sets and tearing down transistor radios. I pity the newbies pulling apart their iphones.

Thought. Is R2R only hardware or should it extend to firmware and software?

[madires]

In my experience CRT TVs from the late 80ies / early 90ies last 20+ years. TFT/OLED TVs don't come even close (mainly the dreaded low-ESR electrolytics).

Thought. Is R2R only hardware or should it extend to firmware and software?

Or at least allow to install an alternative firmware (plus necessary documentation to make this happen). The result should be a working device, i.e. working hardware and firmware (security fixes!). For example, many Android phones are already e-junk when leaving the factory because they will never see any OS updates (simply not provided by the manufacturer).

[ataradov]

I’d like to see the EULA terms for that before I take information third or fourth hand.

Here is the most offensive part of this EULA. I can't find the same text published anywhere, so you have no way of reading it prior to being presented with an Agree button with your phone half dead.

[AndyBeez]

For example, many Android phones are already e-junk when leaving the factory because they will never see any OS updates (simply not provided by the manutactuer).

I have 3 Android tablets that are e-waist because they will never go higher than Kitkat. They all have great cameras, hidef displays, fast ac wifi, accurate GPS and batteries with low wear. But the OS and apps are no longer supported. No rooting either as there is no 'ROM' to patch. Android 10 devices are e-junkies too. The net result is, I will not buy Android devices as they are unfit to upgrade. Add to R2R the right to reuse/repurpose.

[madires]

If you're lucky one of your tablets might be supported by LinageOS (https://lineageos.org/).

[SilverSolder]

For example, many Android phones are already e-junk when leaving the factory because they will never see any OS updates (simply not provided by the manutactuer).

I have 3 Android tablets that are e-waist because they will never go higher than Kitkat. They all have great cameras, hidef displays, fast ac wifi, accurate GPS and batteries with low wear. But the OS and apps are no longer supported. No rooting either as there is no 'ROM' to patch. Android 10 devices are e-junkies too. The net result is, I will not buy Android devices as they are unfit to upgrade. Add to R2R the right to reuse/repurpose.

I have an old Android tablet in my car, stuck on Android 4.2 or something like that.   I use it to run a car diagnostic app... I like the big screen.

Every couple of months or so, I get a pop-up "Application not owned".   At that point, I have to take the tablet into the house, let it hook up to WiFi, and talk with the mother ship.  Then it's OK for another few months.

I emailed the author of the app.  He said, the terms and conditions that developers sign with Google requires all these things to be in place.  It is also the reason he cannot provide any updates for the app on the old OS - not that he doesn't want to, but Google requires him not to!

So, there is a whiff of "managed obsolescence" in the air with Android.  I'm sure they're all doing it - after all, they are entitled to a share of your paycheck every month, by birthright!

[AndyBeez]

If you're lucky one of your tablets might be supported by LinageOS (https://lineageos.org/).

Thank you for that. Sadly my hardware is too old

It is also the reason he cannot provide any updates for the app on the old OS - not that he doesn't want to, but Google requires him not to! So, there is a whiff of "managed obsolescence" in the air with Android.

Maybe someone should remind Google of their "do no evil" slogan. There is a lot of mint tech sitting in draws cold and dark because the apps for the OS version no longer exist in the PlayStore. On the R2R theme, replacing a Samsung battery requires a £1 pry tool, not a 1000 pound set of luggage. So yes, I can fix my tablet but no, the Android apps won't install.

...I've said this a thousand times before but it should go away and be replaced by actual meaningful legislation that does the following:

1. Mandates a reasonable lifetime for all goods.
2. Mandates fitness for purpose of the goods for the entire lifetime.
3. Mandates service and support for hardware and software during that time with realistic constraints on repair costs and turnaround.
4. Mandates proportional buy back for used devices which do not meet the above standards.
5. Mandates that the manufacturer has to buy the item back from the user at the end of life for material value and recycling.

I totally agree. Consider where the motivation for Right to Repair originates. It's from the Ma & Pa fixuns stores in the USA. They want access to schematics and components to run their fixuns businesses because the big bad corporates think their products are unfixable shite. Their motivation is not necessarily about consumer rights or saving the environment, it's about staying in the black without having to rely on the grey market for parts.

Is there a divergence between what might be called the American interpretation of R2R and the European one? Your 5 mandates make perfect sense, to a European, but are they in phase with the USA? I'm sure if voiced in Congress your mandates would meet a firewall of corporate lawyers and lobbyists, all out to protect their pay masters from socialist bureaucracy. But then we do know what happens when the European Union gets it's sticky fingers on a good idea...

The R2R path should be the rights to repair, reuse and recycle.

What do Aussies think in their brave new post ScoMo era?

[eti]

This whole thing is just malicious compliance. Nobody wanted that. All we need is for the non-apple service centers to be able to repair the phones.

iPad Rehab did a comprehensive overview of this kit. One of the biggest gotchas there is that after you replace the screen you have to agree to a EULA stating that you allow apple to get all your data from the phone. And if you don't like that, you are stuck.

But yes, the price of the equipment is actually surprisingly low.

ALL your data? I truly doubt that; do you think the phone agents care, or have time to do so? EVEN IF TRUE, they're Apple - would you prefer some back street shop get it... or RUSSIANS?

Maybe you'd prefer a crappy Android phone, where any combination of Google and/or some random Chinese spyware vendor can see LITERALLY ALL your stuff, ALL THE TIME. The willfuly ignorant, misinformed vocal majority are very loud, ain't they!

[Fungus]

Does Apple ship outside USA. E.g. EU.

Alexander.

not for now.

This is what makes it "malicious compliance" for me. They're only doing this in selected countries to try to avert the passing of any laws that might have teeth.

Europe is already passing laws to force them to use USB-C connectors so they know Europeans aren't going to take much notice of a campaign to make it semi-easier to repair.

Broken screens are one thing, battery replacement is another. There's no reason at all the battery shouldn't slip out of an end cap that's held on with a single screw. They can make it tamper-evident if they want to and void the warranty if you use a third party battery, no problem there.

All the phones I've replaced lately have been because the battery is losing charge capacity, not because they're broken or need replacing.

[bd139]

Opinion vs reality...

They're not doing this in selected countries. It's a global rollout. They are doing it in the largest market first. It's coming to the UK soon and we don't actually have any laws about it.

As for USB-C, they have had USB-C on a lot of devices for a long time. My iPad Pro, MacBook Pro, all my Apple chargers are all USB-C and have been for about 3-4 years. My Apple monitor is USB-C and charges the laptop or iPad! It has a USB-C and Thunderbolt hub. Even my watch is USB-C!

The only thing that isn't USB-C yet is the phones and that is coming with the next generation. The current phones all ship with a USB-C to Lightning cable as well.

As for batteries, the things are IP sealed (phones that is). I remember having a "waterproof" android phone that died because it got wet. YMMV there.

I just got the battery on my 2015 iPhone 6s to give to my youngest daughter. It was done in an Apple Store while I was eating lunch. £49. Sorted. If they break it during the repair they give you a new phone. 

Haters gonna hate...

[Monkeh]

I know people complain about the RAM and SSD being soldered but they don't work even remotely the same way as PCs so you need to change your expectations on what parts should be replaceable.

I know nothing at all about their proprietary SSDs, but could you illuminate us as to how an Intel memory controller using industry standard DDR3 or DDR4 is or should be any different just because it's in their shiny case?

M1s are LPDDR4X or LPDDR5 (pro/max/ultra/supercalifragilisticexpealidocious*) and at least in the case of the original M1 they're SiP, so fair enough there.

*Blow me I spelt that right on the first try

[bd139]

I know people complain about the RAM and SSD being soldered but they don't work even remotely the same way as PCs so you need to change your expectations on what parts should be replaceable.

I know nothing at all about their proprietary SSDs, but could you illuminate us as to how an Intel memory controller using industry standard DDR3 or DDR4 is or should be any different just because it's in their shiny case?

M1s are LPDDR4X or LPDDR5 (pro/max/ultra/supercalifragilisticexpealidocious*) and at least in the case of the original M1 they're SiP, so fair enough there.

*Blow me I spelt that right on the first try

Congratulations on the spelling. You did better than I would have with that.

On the Intel ones I understand they were trying to shrink the motherboard to get more battery in the case and keep the mass as low as possible which is quite frankly what the end users were all asking for. The obvious thing to do is to remove as much dead material as possible which means removing RAM modules and SSD modules which they don't control the profile of. Obviously you lose the pluggable modules but (and I don't have the source for this handy at the moment) 90% of macs are never upgraded then it's a sound engineering decision to service the majority of users with larger batteries. Also notably one of the least reliable parts of a machine is the RAM mechanical interface from experience as I have lost count of the number of computers I've repaired just by reseating the bloody RAM.

If you look at the Intel 2018 MBA then you'll see what I mean.

Internals:



Motherboard:



There's nothing in it!

The M1's are slightly different. As you suggest, it's a system in package environment. But the objectives are the same. They could have designed a modular system. In fact in the Mac Studio, the SSD module is removable. BUT as people have discovered it's not a standard module as it the interface is completely tied into their secure boot, crypto and integrity verification implementation.

I'm sure you'll be able to buy new SSDs for the mac studio when the repair program reaches macs.

[Monkeh]

I do understand, even if I do not share, the desire for the machines to be slimmer. Can't disagree with more battery. So in this context it is merely a design choice rather than any actual difference in operation, which is what I wanted to clarify.

Personally I've had far more faulty RAM modules than loose connections, but I haven't seen much in the way of failed RAM from all-soldered Macs. Honestly, I don't see many failures in OEM RAM at all outside of £200 PC World bargains from the usual sad names (Toshiba, Acer..). Very few failures from retail Crucial, and the less said about all 'enthusiast' suppliers the better.

Upgrades are an issue, but I only take issue with this because they historically (I haven't checked current) charge 2-4x the retail rate for the upgrade. Admittedly no different to other major vendors, but many other machines you at least get the option of the retail rate.. Whether they're actually profiteering here or covering for price optimization on the lower spec machines is pure speculation I'll not engage in, in the interest of civility.

[bd139]

Yeah RAM failures are extremely rare. They are of course covered under warranty. But realistically I expect to get 3 years out of a Mac at average as I am an extremely heavy professional user so I will buy AppleCare warranty to cover rapid replacement etc. After that I shift it as fast as I can as I don't want the uncertainty (having been in the middle of some contract work and had to buy a new ThinkPad, twice!).

We had a huge batch of failures from Crucial at my last place. They were chucked in high end Dell Precision 5500 machines. 1 in 5 machines (out of about 200 bought) ended up with failed RAM. That was pretty terrible as I've used Crucial for about 20 years and never had a problem.

Yes the pricing is SHIT and completely arbitrary and annoying and there will be no argument from me about that 

On that, one thing I have learned about ANY vendor is that always pick an off the shelf configuration because there is a lead time on any other configuration if you need a replacement, Apple included. I'm using an off the shelf 14" MacBook Pro which I can get replaced the same day at the moment. If I upgraded the RAM I would have to wait 4-6 weeks for a replacement. The same with Lenovo and Dell at the moment thanks to the supply problems.

This is annoying really as I need a faster machine. So in my case it's Mac Studio is the next most powerful off the shelf config. Bye bye another £2k 

[eti]

Opinion vs reality...

They're not doing this in selected countries. It's a global rollout. They are doing it in the largest market first. It's coming to the UK soon and we don't actually have any laws about it.

As for USB-C, they have had USB-C on a lot of devices for a long time. My iPad Pro, MacBook Pro, all my Apple chargers are all USB-C and have been for about 3-4 years. My Apple monitor is USB-C and charges the laptop or iPad! It has a USB-C and Thunderbolt hub. Even my watch is USB-C!

The only thing that isn't USB-C yet is the phones and that is coming with the next generation. The current phones all ship with a USB-C to Lightning cable as well.

As for batteries, the things are IP sealed (phones that is). I remember having a "waterproof" android phone that died because it got wet. YMMV there.

I just got the battery on my 2015 iPhone 6s to give to my youngest daughter. It was done in an Apple Store while I was eating lunch. £49. Sorted. If they break it during the repair they give you a new phone. 

Haters gonna hate...

Hello Mr Federighi, fancy seeing you here! It must be quiet at Apple for you to have time to come on forums... wow. Won't you be disciplined for leaking info about future hardware?  (Better add /S in case the captain literals are reading)

USB-C socket won't EVER be seen on the bottom of an iPhone. No way, no how. You can print this post out and quote me on it. It's a SHITTY standard, and Apple are about clarity and simplicity, not about adopting poorly done hardware. There may be some doohickey dongle that allows one to convert FROM USB-C to whatever new socket or implementation Apple have designed for the future, but USB-C it ain't gonna be

Anyone with enough Apple experience (ask anyone ACTUALLY OVER 40, and someone with decades of experience at, or involved in writing up and consulting for Apple-based media), will tell you this is a fact. Lightning was released... as slow as it is by modern standards, why would they REGRESS, "just because" everyone else is using it?

Nope. Never. Also, you may like to Google "Why does iPad use USB-C but not iPhone" or a phrase to that end... and you'll see. Ask Rene Ritchie, Alex Lyndsay of "Pixelcorps" or Leo Laporte, you know, people with actual BRAINS and critical thinking fully operational... you'll see.