Author Topic: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)  (Read 13058 times)

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Offline bd139

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2022, 08:56:05 am »
Hahaha  :-DD

So current state of affairs is iPhone 14 is Lightning. iPhone 15 is ? but possibly USB-C

I have my suspicions there just won’t be a hole in the bottom of it at all. You’re right about simplicity. No mechanical parts is where they are heading.

I’m fine with that. My only complaint is the wireless charger is slower.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2022, 02:17:14 pm »
I think it would be foolish of them not to be planning ahead for the potential of the EU to force the matter. They managed to skate around the micro-USB attempt, though.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2022, 02:27:49 pm »
That was good though. Micro USB was a proper steamer of a standard.
 

Offline eti

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2022, 09:39:49 pm »
I think it would be foolish of them not to be planning ahead for the potential of the EU to force the matter. They managed to skate around the micro-USB attempt, though.

Apple do their own, refined thing.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2022, 09:53:53 pm »
I think it would be foolish of them not to be planning ahead for the potential of the EU to force the matter. They managed to skate around the micro-USB attempt, though.

Apple do their own, refined thing.

Apple will lose access to the entire EU if it becomes law, then. Good job you're not making decisions for them.
 

Offline eti

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2022, 12:33:11 am »
I think it would be foolish of them not to be planning ahead for the potential of the EU to force the matter. They managed to skate around the micro-USB attempt, though.

Apple do their own, refined thing.

Apple will lose access to the entire EU if it becomes law, then. Good job you're not making decisions for them.

Errr, yeah... no... wake up and smell the coffee. This is Apple. They ain't gonna do that. Apple have FAR longer sight than most companies and so-called "tech journalists" combined. USB-C ain't happening on an iPhone, not EVER. Hey, you don't need me to "prove" it to you - I am some schmuck stranger online - sit down and have a word with your critical thinking skills, ask yourself WHY they do not use it, and WHY it is iPad only... and instead of sitting here listening to me, do some DEEP ANALYSIS and research. You'll see.

« Last Edit: May 29, 2022, 12:37:19 am by eti »
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2022, 12:44:18 am »
I think it would be foolish of them not to be planning ahead for the potential of the EU to force the matter. They managed to skate around the micro-USB attempt, though.

Apple do their own, refined thing.

Apple will lose access to the entire EU if it becomes law, then. Good job you're not making decisions for them.

Errr, yeah... no... wake up and smell the coffee. This is Apple. They ain't gonna do that. Apple have FAR longer sight than most companies and so-called "tech journalists" combined. USB-C ain't happening on an iPhone, not EVER. Hey, you don't need me to "prove" it to you - I am some schmuck stranger online - sit down and have a word with your critical thinking skills, ask yourself WHY they do not use it, and WHY it is iPad only... and instead of sitting here listening to me, do some DEEP ANALYSIS and research. You'll see.

You're not paying attention. And no, I'm not doing some 'DEEP ANALYSIS' just to suit you.

If Apple wish to retain cabled charging, and the EC passes the proposed amendment, they will have no choice but to adopt USB-C. If you don't understand what I'm talking about (likely..), do some not very deep analysis of your own and figure it out.
 

Offline AnalogAficionado

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #57 on: May 29, 2022, 12:44:33 am »
There is a very good reason Apple has to authenticate repair parts and pair them by serial number to each phone:  organized crime syndicates have been bilking BILLIONS of dollars a year out of Apple through repair fraud.  Their tactic is simple:  purchase a brand new phone with authentic, factory-fresh parts from Apple.  Take it to the shop, whereupon select internal organs are removed and replaced with fake or defective parts.  Stitch it back up, and return it to Apple as defective, in exchange for a brand new phone.

Rinse, repeat.

Pretty soon they have enough new, authentic parts to build a whole new phone to sell on the secondary market, or a healthy supply of the most common repair parts to sell into the non-authorized repair market.

This is why Apple doesn't want defective parts going back out into the wild - they end up eating a good chunk of those as repair fraud costs.

Report details Apple’s struggles to tackle iPhone repair fraud in China, which cost Apple billions of dollars a year
Oct. 9th 2018
https://9to5mac.com/2018/10/09/iphone-repair-fraud-china/

... and this is why we can't have nice things, such as repair parts which aren't paired to the phone by serial #.

But, is it really such a big deal to have to make a phone call to Apple and have them pair your genuine repair part with your legitimately-owned phone??  It's a minor inconvenience, at worst.  But apparently this is a great excuse for more childish winging about how awful Apple is, and how little they care for their customers.

The other very serious issue that people don't seem to consider is just how dangerous an aftermarket Li-Ion battery cell could be.  Have we all forgotten the Samsung battery fire debacle so soon!?!  Li-Ion battery cells have a propensity to become little incendiaries if mistreated ... either through improper charge / discharge management, or through mechanical damage, such as might be caused by, oh say.... pressing a soft-pouch cell into place using your fingers instead of using a fixture which applies a safe, calibrated pressure to activate the adhesive without damaging the internal layers of the battery (I'm looking at you, Snazzy Labs).

Li-Ion cell chemistry varies widely between manufacturers and from year to year with incremental advancements.  Proper charging tolerances are in the realm of ±5mV to avoid possible catastrophic long-term damage, and usually the battery management processor needs a very detailed description of the specific cell's characteristics to properly monitor and manage it safely.

Can you imagine the legal liability and public relations nightmare Apple would have to deal with if a bunch of iPhones started exploding in people's pockets and backpacks after a bunch of 3rd party repairs went wrong?  Yet another reason to have a qualified technician do the repair, using genuine parts which have been tested and QC'd to a safe standard.

Once again, the under-informed will find specious reasons to whine and mock, when in fact there are almost always good engineering reasons Apple has done things a certain way.
 
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Online Monkeh

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #58 on: May 29, 2022, 12:49:39 am »
But, is it really such a big deal to have to make a phone call to Apple and have them pair your genuine repair part with your legitimately-owned phone??

Is it really such a big deal for them not to demand that they gain access to personal information such as the networks you connect to, app usage, calls and call durations, just to replace a broken screen?
 

Offline eti

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #59 on: May 29, 2022, 12:52:03 am »
There is a very good reason Apple has to authenticate repair parts and pair them by serial number to each phone:  organized crime syndicates have been bilking BILLIONS of dollars a year out of Apple through repair fraud.  Their tactic is simple:  purchase a brand new phone with authentic, factory-fresh parts from Apple.  Take it to the shop, whereupon select internal organs are removed and replaced with fake or defective parts.  Stitch it back up, and return it to Apple as defective, in exchange for a brand new phone.

Rinse, repeat.

Pretty soon they have enough new, authentic parts to build a whole new phone to sell on the secondary market, or a healthy supply of the most common repair parts to sell into the non-authorized repair market.

This is why Apple doesn't want defective parts going back out into the wild - they end up eating a good chunk of those as repair fraud costs.

Report details Apple’s struggles to tackle iPhone repair fraud in China, which cost Apple billions of dollars a year
Oct. 9th 2018
https://9to5mac.com/2018/10/09/iphone-repair-fraud-china/

... and this is why we can't have nice things, such as repair parts which aren't paired to the phone by serial #.

But, is it really such a big deal to have to make a phone call to Apple and have them pair your genuine repair part with your legitimately-owned phone??  It's a minor inconvenience, at worst.  But apparently this is a great excuse for more childish winging about how awful Apple is, and how little they care for their customers.

The other very serious issue that people don't seem to consider is just how dangerous an aftermarket Li-Ion battery cell could be.  Have we all forgotten the Samsung battery fire debacle so soon!?!  Li-Ion battery cells have a propensity to become little incendiaries if mistreated ... either through improper charge / discharge management, or through mechanical damage, such as might be caused by, oh say.... pressing a soft-pouch cell into place using your fingers instead of using a fixture which applies a safe, calibrated pressure to activate the adhesive without damaging the internal layers of the battery (I'm looking at you, Snazzy Labs).

Li-Ion cell chemistry varies widely between manufacturers and from year to year with incremental advancements.  Proper charging tolerances are in the realm of ±5mV to avoid possible catastrophic long-term damage, and usually the battery management processor needs a very detailed description of the specific cell's characteristics to properly monitor and manage it safely.

Can you imagine the legal liability and public relations nightmare Apple would have to deal with if a bunch of iPhones started exploding in people's pockets and backpacks after a bunch of 3rd party repairs went wrong?  Yet another reason to have a qualified technician do the repair, using genuine parts which have been tested and QC'd to a safe standard.

Once again, the under-informed will find specious reasons to whine and mock, when in fact there are almost always good engineering reasons Apple has done things a certain way.

Possibly yes. But THE CRITICAL part, which most never mention or skim over (due to an inherent lack of understanding the deep workings of iOS and Apple as a security and trust-centric co) is that the ENTIRE DEVICE is locked down SO tight so as to prevent data leaks, encryption compromises and injection of software AND hardware spy tools etc. It's THAT SIMPLE. I am constantly baffled as to HOW people do not see or understand this! It's the same reason you don't allow Amazon to install a "smart lock" on the front door of your house containing millions of dollars of priceless antiques... LIKE... DUHHHH!
 
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Offline eti

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #60 on: May 29, 2022, 12:52:54 am »
AS regards USB-C not coming, let me point you to someone with a brain...

https://www.imore.com/why-iphone-12-still-wont-be-going-usb-c
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #61 on: May 29, 2022, 12:54:38 am »
AS regards USB-C not coming, let me point you to someone with a brain...

https://www.imore.com/why-iphone-12-still-wont-be-going-usb-c

I genuinely don't care why you or anyone else thinks USB-C won't be coming to an iPhone. You are flatly refusing to face the possibility that they won't have a choice.
 

Offline AnalogAficionado

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #62 on: May 29, 2022, 01:04:21 am »
Is it really such a big deal for them not to demand that they gain access to personal information such as the networks you connect to, app usage, calls and call durations, just to replace a broken screen?

What makes you assume they're harvesting any of this information?  They need access to the low-level crypto stuff on the phone somehow... and they're not going to hand you the tools to do that yourself.  Otherwise the criminals could just program in the S/N associations themselves.

Anyway, Apple publishes a very transparent and fair privacy policy. Their business model does not involve selling your personal information to 3rd parties, or tracking your behaviour for advertising purposes, etc., in stark contrast to most of the other big tech companies.

https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/

If they're deviating from what they state, that's a big legal liability they're exposing themselves to.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #63 on: May 29, 2022, 01:05:41 am »
Is it really such a big deal for them not to demand that they gain access to personal information such as the networks you connect to, app usage, calls and call durations, just to replace a broken screen?

What makes you assume they're harvesting any of this information?

The fact that they make you agree to allow them to.
 

Offline AnalogAficionado

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #64 on: May 29, 2022, 01:41:28 am »
Is it really such a big deal for them not to demand that they gain access to personal information such as the networks you connect to, app usage, calls and call durations, just to replace a broken screen?

What makes you assume they're harvesting any of this information?

The fact that they make you agree to allow them to.

Do they?

I would be surprised if the permissions they request during the repair authentication process involves anything beyond debug access to your device within the limited scope of pairing a replacement part. If you have the legal text of what is agreed to, I wouldn't mind seeing it... might change my mind.  Otherwise, this still sounds like an unfounded assumption.  I will grant you, though - it doesn't hurt to maintain a healthy sense of skepticism.

But, my bet is they specifically state they will not access any info beyond some firmware-level stuff which is necessary to complete the repair.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #65 on: May 29, 2022, 01:45:26 am »
Is it really such a big deal for them not to demand that they gain access to personal information such as the networks you connect to, app usage, calls and call durations, just to replace a broken screen?

What makes you assume they're harvesting any of this information?

The fact that they make you agree to allow them to.

Do they?

I would be surprised if the permissions they request during the repair authentication process involves anything beyond debug access to your device within the limited scope of pairing a replacement part. If you have the legal text of what is agreed to, I wouldn't mind seeing it... might change my mind.  Otherwise, this still sounds like an unfounded assumption.  I will grant you, though - it doesn't hurt to maintain a healthy sense of skepticism.

But, my bet is they specifically state they will not access any info beyond some firmware-level stuff which is necessary to complete the repair.

Linked earlier in this very thread:


It's quite clear that they will collect this data, or they wouldn't ask for it. And no, you can't opt out - you hit 'agree' or your device does not function. If you have an Apple authorized company repair it, they will 'agree' for you.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2022, 01:47:37 am by Monkeh »
 

Offline AnalogAficionado

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #66 on: May 29, 2022, 02:26:26 am »
Ah, I had not seen the video. That clarifies things.

But, IMHO the person in the video is overreacting emotionally to what's actually in the agreement. Muting the video and just reading the text (pasted below), they're gathering photos of the phone and some diagnostics data, which includes info about other devices the phone is used with (it does not say they're harvesting user data off of those devices, just diagnostic data). Call count & durations (not the same as "who you called, and what was said").

They then list the specific purposes they use this info for ... to summarize: determining trade-in value & audit, troubleshooting the phone, improving products & services, and anti-fraud. Nothing there about targeted marketing.

I don't interpret any of this as nefarious or invasive. YMMV.  :-//

"By tapping "Agree" you agree that Apple
may collect images of this device, which
may be linked to the device serial number
as well as diagnostic data from this device,
and any paired accessories or other
devices, including the device serial number,
device name information about wireless
and wired networks you connect to, daily
count of call attempts and information
about app usage data and call duration ("di-
agnostics data"). Apple may use the images
and the diagnostics data to determine the
device's trade-in value. Apple may also use
the images for related audit purposes, and
to improve our products and services. In
addition, Apple and its partners may use the
diagnostics data to troubleshoot issues with
this device, to improve our products and
services, and for anti-fraud purposes."
 
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Online ataradov

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #67 on: May 29, 2022, 02:51:46 am »
Nobody was complaining about targeting marketing. But in general, I don't know or care how they will use this information. I just don't want them to have it, there is no need to collect this information if all you want is a screen replacement.

"images" are not photos, they can't get that, there is no camera in the supplied tools. Images here are data dumps.

"diagnostic data" and " improve our products and services" may mean literally anything. There is also "diagnostic data" and "diagnostics data" in the same text. And I bet Apple lawyers will find a way to twist that to their favor if it comes to that. They put it there after all. And those people get paid well to not make mistakes like this.

Nobody asked them to estimate a trade-in value. Also, does it mean that a phone that went though their official tools will have lower trade-in value than a phone I fixed myself with a construction heat gun?

And knowing networks around you will trivially estimate your location and location of all the places you visit.

All those things may not be a concern for some people, but it is not necessary to collect this information and as the video title says, it should be illegal.

Also, this licence is not present on the web or when you order the kit. The first time you see it is when your phone is half disassembled in the jig. So you are kind of stuck if you disagree.
Alex
 

Offline eti

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #68 on: May 29, 2022, 04:38:31 am »
Whiners are everywhere about this topic. Louis Rossman is right - no matter what Apple do, people just like to whine like little babies.

Gripe gripe gripe. Dave also says it in his video. Silly little babies. The internet is fully of entitled whiners, and I’ve noticed a particularly  high concentration of them hang around here.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2022, 04:40:48 am by eti »
 
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Online Monkeh

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #69 on: May 29, 2022, 05:28:16 am »
Whiners are everywhere about this topic. Louis Rossman is right - no matter what Apple do, people just like to whine like little babies.

Gripe gripe gripe. Dave also says it in his video. Silly little babies. The internet is fully of entitled whiners, and I’ve noticed a particularly  high concentration of them hang around here.

No matter what Apple do, you'll be ready to defend them. While doing a lot of entitled whining about how everything else is bad.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #70 on: May 29, 2022, 08:18:39 am »
It’s all bad. Apple are just less bad.
 

Offline madires

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #71 on: May 29, 2022, 12:04:18 pm »
I don't interpret any of this as nefarious or invasive. YMMV.  :-//

I see multiple violations of the EU's GDPR (General Data Protection Regulation), starting with the agreement of sharing data under coercion (otherwise the tool won't do its job).
 

Offline bd139

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #72 on: May 29, 2022, 12:07:25 pm »
Rubbish. It’s explicit consent and limited purpose. Which is fine under GDPR.
 

Offline madires

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #73 on: May 29, 2022, 12:27:01 pm »
We have to wait for Apple to offer that repair kit in the EU and then check their EU EULA. The US EULA would be unacceptable for a European.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2022, 12:31:17 pm by madires »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge)
« Reply #74 on: May 29, 2022, 01:32:39 pm »
Don't be so sure. The GDPR is a pretty weak set of protections on privacy.

Look at the reciprocal agreements and safe harbour garbage.
 


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