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Online EEVblog

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EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« on: July 15, 2017, 12:58:27 am »
Dave looks at the $25 ANENG AN8008 Multimeter
It has some unusually low ranges making it ideal for electronics use. Or is it?

 
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Online sleemanj

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2017, 01:05:29 am »
For those who have not seen it, the ongoing discussion... 
an8008-us-$19-10000count-1uv-0-01ua-0-01ohm-resolution-meter
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 01:07:39 am by sleemanj »
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Offline retrolefty

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2017, 01:29:50 am »
Maybe not your intention but I just bought one based on your review. $21 delivered and shipped from a US seller. Man compared to what I paid for a Simpson 260 in the 60s in real dollars, boy has electronics come a long way.? While I own a couple of old Fluke 87s, this seems too handy to pass on.

So best bang for buck hobbyist meter ever?
 

Offline MK14

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2017, 01:30:20 am »
That is amazing for the price.
It is also an amazing amount of multimeter, in such a small package.
Not using 9V PP3 batteries, is probably also an advantage (ignoring diode test voltage) for some people. As AAA's can be cheaper and more available.
From the video, the backlight seems very effective, as well.
Quite an assortment of probes, tips, accessories including pouch as well.

Those tiny fuses are both really cute, and hugely dangerous, at the same time, if you understand what I mean.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2017, 01:59:36 am »
Quite interesting meter for the price, and the accessories complete the package quite well.

One additional detail: a few months ago I bought an UT136 on the same premises (nice meter for the price) - I did one mistake and the ohms/diode/continuity ranges are gone. I know how to repair that but, if the same happens with this meter, it can be very frustrating for beginners. Due to the lack of protection this will most probably be the same on this meter.
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Offline alm

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2017, 02:11:16 am »
I wonder if any of the sellers will take a screenshot of the thumbs up in front of the meter and add it to their for sale listing :P.

As usual, why the 1000V CAT II / 600V CAT III nonsense? It could almost have been a half-decent meter for beginners or as second meter for low level signals if clearly marked CAT I 50 V and ranges limited to 50 V, and might even meet those safety requirements. The main downside would have been the missing current ranges.
 
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Offline Fsck

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2017, 02:42:41 am »
I wonder if any of the sellers will take a screenshot of the thumbs up in front of the meter and add it to their for sale listing :P.

As usual, why the 1000V CAT II / 600V CAT III nonsense? It could almost have been a half-decent meter for beginners or as second meter for low level signals if clearly marked CAT I 50 V and ranges limited to 50 V, and might even meet those safety requirements. The main downside would have been the missing current ranges.

marketing: everybody else has it, so we should too.
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Offline bjcuizon

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2017, 02:53:28 am »
Wow! It's such a decent little meter with 10000 counts...I wish it had the µA range though :-DMM. But overall, its really good for its price. :-+
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Online sleemanj

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2017, 03:27:13 am »
As usual, why the 1000V CAT II / 600V CAT III nonsense?

Marketing.

I agree it would be better if meters were just honest about it.  99% of the buyers of these meters do not need 600V Cat III, ever.  The most they are, or should be, working on is Cat II.

Cat II 600V or even 300V can't be that hard to achieve legitimately, I'm sure it could.  Ideally with 5x20mm fuses though.  Why they used those stupid 10mm ones, I don't know, there's room for 5x20 in there surely.

Here in NZ, I (sometimes, not currently in stock) sell a cheap chinese meter, the ADM02 (Mastech MS8233E inside), it's just 2000 count 3.5 digit, but it's physically robust, looks good, has non-silly 5x20mm fuses, and it does what the majority of people need (except the diode test voltage is too low :-(), but one of the BIG reasons I chose that one to stock, is it's marked as Cat II 600v, and that's it.  I'm quietly hoping that BSide (or Mastech, or PeakMeter or...) takes the 8008 chipset and stuffs it into an ADM02 form with 5x20 fuses, slightly better input protection, and most importantly, that 600v CAT II marking, for $25US or less.
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Online ejeffrey

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2017, 03:45:10 am »
Looks like a nice little meter, certainly nicer than  most of the cheap meters I have used.

One thing that I think would make a neat video is to take a handful of cheap meters with high counts but mediocre accuracy, throw them in the back of a car for a year and let them get knocked around and subject to big temperature swings, then check their accuracy again.  Its no surprise that a 10k count meter comes out of the box with <0.1% errors on most ranges.  It would be interesting to see how much they actually drift compared to the 0.5% spec.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2017, 04:29:51 am »
Extend the current ranges and swap the hold button for a rel button and.. it's almost perfect. For $25. Just take a marker out and get rid of the cat ratings.

The sort of handy extra meter to keep around the bench or in the car.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2017, 05:05:22 am »
Extend the current ranges and swap the hold button for a rel button and.. it's almost perfect. For $25.

Yep, very close.
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2017, 05:37:10 am »
Guided by the numbers it must be a popular subject with already over nine thousand views in a day, two were mine by the way just to be sure, I was in the market for a 101 or similar anyway.   :-DMM :-/O     
 

Online amspire

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2017, 05:39:41 am »
I have a Richmeter RM101 on order (a rebranded ANENG AN8001) for A$16.31 inc postage. That is half the price of the AN8008 and it has the normal mA current ranges, but not the sensitive volts and current. It does have a range button pads on the back of the PCB I think. I would love to find a way to use it. I could have paid a little more for the RM102/AN8002 with the temperature functions, but  I didn't need it.

Buying both the 8008 and 8001 is not a bad combination. You end up with two multimeters for two concurrent measurements, and you get the sensitive ranges of the AN8008 along with resistance to 60MOhms and the proper mA current ranges of the AN8001.

It would be great if they could release one meter that does it all.

If it is possible to replace the fuse holders with something bigger, I will give it a go.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 05:52:06 am by amspire »
 

Offline cdev

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2017, 06:45:36 am »
Dave,

products like this and an iffy economy are why, if I were you, I would not risk your future finances on the success of your meter, nomatter how good it is, we can never compete on price with the Chinese..  we shouldn't even try.

We have to work smarter, and make smarter products, not cheaper.

They will always be cheaper.   This is also why the world needs more public education, lots more of it. Even if the generic jobs most people do are going away for good.

Privatizing public education and health care so that most people are left struggling to afford it is a recipe for disaster.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 06:47:34 am by cdev »
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Offline G7PSK

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2017, 08:40:22 am »
These are the golden years, when the Chinese economy matures they will want higher wages etc and the price of products will rise. At sometime in the future it will all flatten out and as you say we will all have to work smarter including the Chinese and Indians etc.
At that price I have just purchased one to keep in the car, it will replace the cheapo one already there and never used as yet, the hope is I never will need a meter in earnest in the car.
 

Offline pixelk

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2017, 08:51:56 am »
Maybe not your intention but I just bought one based on your review. $21 delivered and shipped from a US seller.

Same here ( 17,46 € delivered to EU ), It will be a honorable "backup meter" for my Extech EX330. I have very limited use for mains testing and will NEVER use it near a live socket. I'm more concerned by the somewhat flimsy socket plugs.

Sometime you just don't need features (as long as you're aware of the risks & limitation of a chinesium enriched product ). DON'T USE THIS on something your life depends on, but for testing continuity, it will be good enough ;)
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2017, 09:08:19 am »
I just checked all of my DMM's including a Fluke 87 and Protek 506. None of them have uV measurement capability. This meter is worth having for this feature alone ;)

cheers
davo
 

Offline IanMacdonald

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2017, 09:24:08 am »
Looks not bad for the price. At least, having a fused 10A range is better than no protection.

Thing I advise about cheap meters is to avoid the autoranging ones because they invariably do a 'Mexican hat dance' - display a whole series of false readings - before settling.  How does this one fare in that respect? If it's a nice quick autoranger that doesn't give misleading readings before settling, than at the price it's a winner.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2017, 12:53:55 pm »
Wow! It's such a decent little meter with 10000 counts...I wish it had the µA range though :-DMM. But overall, its really good for its price. :-+

Huh? It does have uA. Watch the video...

(and with 9999 digits it'll measure nA as well)
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2017, 12:59:08 pm »
As usual, why the 1000V CAT II / 600V CAT III nonsense? It could almost have been a half-decent meter for beginners or as second meter for low level signals if clearly marked CAT I 50 V and ranges limited to 50 V

If you're worried you can scratch off a I and get a more realistic rating.



Dave measured 1000V in the video, it seemed to hold up.
 

Offline Rbastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2017, 01:05:14 pm »
If I dindn't already have a Fluke 101, I would buy this thing :-+
Although I woudn't measure mains with it, but the Fluke 101 comes with no current ranges.

Edit: some corrections
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Offline alm

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2017, 01:09:35 pm »
If you're worried you can scratch off a I and get a more realistic rating.
[...]
Dave measured 1000V in the video, it seemed to hold up.
Handling 1000 V AC does not come close to satisfying the requirements for 1000 V CAT I. 1000 V CAT I requires safely handling a 4000 V transient from a 30 Ohm source (12 Ohm source for 600 V CAT II). Does anyone expect those tiny fuses to handle that without arcing? The non-existent input protection? Minimal clearance?

I think you would also need to scratch away two zeroes in addition to the two I's.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2017, 01:33:05 pm »
If you're worried you can scratch off a I and get a more realistic rating.
[...]
Dave measured 1000V in the video, it seemed to hold up.
Handling 1000 V AC does not come close to satisfying the requirements for 1000 V CAT I. 1000 V CAT I requires safely handling a 4000 V transient from a 30 Ohm source (12 Ohm source for 600 V CAT II).

I think you would also need to scratch away two zeroes in addition to the two I's.

I only said "more realistic".

Does anyone expect those tiny fuses to handle that without arcing? The non-existent input protection? Minimal clearance?

No.

In other news: The sibling AN8002 survived longer than a Fluke 87V in joe's electrical robustness testing. There's no reason to think this will be different, the PCBs are almost identical.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/

 :popcorn:

« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 01:38:13 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline alm

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2017, 01:54:45 pm »
In other news: The sibling AN8002 survived longer than a Fluke 87V in joe's electrical robustness testing. There's no reason to think this will be different, the PCBs are almost identical.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/

 :popcorn:
While that is encouraging, that says little about safety. From Joe's FAQ:
Quote
Q) Are the meters that fail your tests unsafe?  They all fail in a safe manner and although non-functional it presented no safety risk in that failed condition.
 
A) I have no idea if any of the meters I have looked at would fail in a safe manner or not if tested to the IEC standards.  If you want to know if a meter is safe or not, have it tested by an accredited lab or buy one that has been certified by a third party.
 
I loosely based my testing on the IEC standards.   The tests I perform are at much lower energy levels than the meters what these standards call out. This is why we never see the explosions like you would when watching some of Fluke's internal testing.  I don't expect the general hobbyist is going to know about CAT ratings or the IEC standards. 
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2017, 02:30:56 pm »

If you're worried you can scratch off a I and get a more realistic rating.


Not a good idea. If you "remark" it to some non compliant safey marking, you're responsible if somebody gets hurt.
(in the EU, you're fully legally responsible now anyway if you import or resell it, which includes buying it from alibaba or ebay china, or amazon not UE)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 02:35:25 pm by f4eru »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2017, 02:31:54 pm »
If I dindn't already have a Fluke 101, I would buy this thing :-+

What country are you from? Is there a law against owning both?

I bought one of these to use as a secondary meter to my old Fluke 27

(or primary, I can't promise which one will be used most in practice)

If it is possible to replace the fuse holders with something bigger, I will give it a go.
.

If you're using this in a place where you need bigger fuses, you're probably doing it wrong. When would you ever be measuring current in a 4kV transient-prone environment anyway?  :popcorn: (the current ranges are the only places the fuses are doing anything useful).

Another thing to ponder is that the battery voltage appears on the square wave output. Think about that long and hard before connecting it to mains AC with the selector in that position.  :scared:

One good thing about this meter is that they put the current ranges/square wave selections as far as possible from the "OFF" position. That's a bigger safety feature than bigger fuses will be.

Dave,

products like this and an iffy economy are why, if I were you, I would not risk your future finances on the success of your meter, nomatter how good it is, we can never compete on price with the Chinese..  we shouldn't even try.

We have to work smarter, and make smarter products, not cheaper.

A smart thing would be to add proper MOVs, PTCs and fuses and sell it for $40.

(and put temperature function instead of square wave output)


In other news: The sibling AN8002 survived longer than a Fluke 87V in joe's electrical robustness testing. There's no reason to think this will be different, the PCBs are almost identical.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/

 :popcorn:
While that is encouraging, that says little about safety.

I know, I'm just trolling you.

My advice for anybody who:
a) Wants to poke pieces of metal into mains sockets and distribution panels
and
b) Thinks a proper industrial meter is "too expensive"

is to get a Fluke 101. They're only $42, delivered. There's really no excuse.

Also: The multimeter is only a part of the equation. I'd prefer to use this meter on a distribution panel with gloves, face shield, hearing protection and a partner standing by with telephone in hand than a "safe" Fluke 87V without any of those things.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 02:43:26 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline Rbastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2017, 04:08:58 pm »
If I dindn't already have a Fluke 101, I would buy this thing :-+

What country are you from? Is there a law against owning both?

I bought one of these to use as a secondary meter to my old Fluke 27

(or primary, I can't promise which one will be used most in practice)


I originally bought the Fluke 101 to always have a nice little meter with in my backpack and also the have a meter I can trust during holidays, where I can't acess the rest of my gear. Since I have that, I don't really see the need for another meter. But I use mostly a Fluke 177 or a DM3068.
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Offline alm

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2017, 04:41:28 pm »
My advice for anybody who:
a) Wants to poke pieces of metal into mains sockets and distribution panels
and
b) Thinks a proper industrial meter is "too expensive"

is to get a Fluke 101. They're only $42, delivered. There's really no excuse.
Well, that is more than twice as expensive :P. I would agree, if this thing would not state 'please use me on three-phase motors', i.e. CAT III 600 V, on its front panel. Then it would make a fine companion to a meter like that.

Also: The multimeter is only a part of the equation. I'd prefer to use this meter on a distribution panel with gloves, face shield, hearing protection and a partner standing by with telephone in hand than a "safe" Fluke 87V without any of those things.
Absolutely. But that is not a very fair comparison. The few hundred USD you save by going for the $20 meter does not pay for that safety equipment, especially not the partner.
 

Offline npelov

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2017, 05:31:24 pm »
What is the cut off voltage. Can it be used with Ni-Mh?
 

Offline plazma

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2017, 05:34:14 pm »
What is the cut off voltage. Can it be used with Ni-Mh?
The AN8002 model works fine with LSD NiMH cells.
 

Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2017, 08:15:30 pm »
20 bucks.

Just modify it with some proper input protection yourself.
And there is even a work-around for the current ranges (witch really is a bummer, i agree)
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Offline rollatorwieltje

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2017, 08:26:01 pm »
I would love to see what a tiny fuse like that does when shorted across mains. I suspect it's not really a problem that those fuses normally come with leads, you're probably going to need them.
 

Offline electr_peter

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2017, 08:34:40 pm »
It seems that volt range has [000.0 - 999.9 mV] range as well (that is, both V and mV ranges on the same switch position). Thus DMM can show [230.1 mV] or [230.1 V] - 1000 times difference in magnitude, but display only differs by a small letter.
This display behaviour can be annoying and misleading for many people. I do not like such configuration - better to have separate [V] and [mV] ranges, not a strange mix as it is.
 
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Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2017, 09:08:27 pm »
When people talk about modifying a multimeter to make its input protection "better", I cringe. You might be able to reliably improve the sensitivity of the meter to damage and failure. Don't fool yourself into thinking that the meter is safer for the user.

Multimeters go through extensive pre-testing, and testing in approved third party labs to obtain a proper certification. Safety is not something guaranteed by design, that is why testing is done. Sure you can add resistors, MOVs, spark gaps, PTCs, fuses, etc to the input circuits and they might improve the reliability of the meter itself to withstand user errors and  unexpected transients. This is no guarantee that under the wrong circumstances that the meter won't explode and nor that your mods will have not made the meter worse for your safety.

Joe has done many tests and his thread was originally something to with matching CAT ratings, but he has edited the title to remove this association and for good reason. Joe has also modified meters to make them, the meters themselves, survive HIS tests. His tests are not safety tests. They might have a some relation to the safety of a meter but that is not his goal nor should the results infer any safety level of the meters he tests. It is quite possible, even likely, that his modified UT61E will pass CATIII/600V without any problems, but it has not been tested under the requirements for that rating and that means it actually could be a bigger bomb in your hand under the wrong circumstances than the original.

My point for ranting here is that when people casually mention modifying their meters to better the input protection they either have no idea what they are saying, have no idea what safety actually implies, but even worse they might give the casual reader the idea that modifying a multimeter is automatically a good thing and nothing could go wrong.

If a meter needs modification to make it safe, mark it as "NOT SAFE FOR FOR ELECTRICAL WORK" and/or "DOES NOT MEET ITS SAFETY RATINGS". That should be the only modification made to any meter that someone might think is safe to use in any situation other than the low energy electronics work bench. That is unless the mods are solely for added functionality or survivability on the bench.

Sure, modifying is fun, can be useful, educational, and even money saving, but it cannot imply better safety. If you modify a meter, keep it on the bench and mark it as mentioned before. It should never be used on anything higher than CATII, maybe even CATI.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2017, 09:29:04 pm »
I originally bought the Fluke 101 to always have a nice little meter with in my backpack and also the have a meter I can trust during holidays, where I can't acess the rest of my gear. Since I have that, I don't really see the need for another meter.

Well, depends whether "during holidays" you are more likely to measure mains voltage (which you would rather not do with the AN8008), or to measure any current (which the Fluke 101 can't do at all)...

Regards from ebastler to Rbastler, by the way!  ;)
I assume you are from the German-speaking part of Italy? Happy tinkering! (A "bastler" is "tinkerer", for all non-Germans out there.)
 

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2017, 09:29:58 pm »
I think modifying cheap gear into better one isn't worth it, because you spent time and money into creating something better and in the end it did cost the same amount as if you'd bought the more expensive one.
I see a reason in doing it, when a particular function isn't available on the more expensive multimeter for example.
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Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2017, 09:39:18 pm »
My point for ranting here is that when people casually mention modifying their meters to better the input protection they either have no idea what they are saying, have no idea what safety actually implies, but even worse they might give the casual reader the idea that modifying a multimeter is automatically a good thing and nothing could go wrong.
In my professional opinion, you clearly ARE missing the point and thinking in ways of rules, not in a way of circuit design.

1- Safety tests go much further than just peoples safety.

2(a,b&c) - Safety tests are also mainly focused how to have consistent safety in production in masses.
On top of that those type of product should never fail in a professional setup (you can get very awkward and annoying situations)
Plus a company doesn't want some bizarre case in court, so they do whatever they can to provide proof that every lunatic can use their product in every thinkable (bizarre and weird) situation

Those are two VERY different things!!

Someone with enough knowledge and a clever design can even make this $20, 99.8% safe without any issues.
And that doesn't need to be expensive.

So by just ranting that people don't have clue about safety is absolutely nonsense without any context.
Than I am simply gonna rant back  8)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 09:46:08 pm by b_force »
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Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2017, 10:16:36 pm »
Someone with enough knowledge and a clever design can even make this $20, 99.8% safe without any issues.
And that doesn't need to be expensive.

Prove it. Prove it with proper safety tests done by approved safety testing facilities, testing equipment modified by people who "have enough knowledge". Prove that these modified meters are safer for the user. That is prove in what safety means in the context of CAT ratings. I also qualified the benefits of modifications but you seem to want to pick a fight over something that I didn't say.

So by just ranting that people don't have clue about safety is absolutely nonsense without any context.
Than I am simply gonna rant back  8)

Again, you are putting words in my mouth. When did I say that everyone has no idea of safety? My content is what Joe has said about his tests himself, what the IEC has said about safety tests, what Dave has said about safety and meter construction, what I have as 30+ years in safety and health education, certifications, and building equipment to safety standards and inspections by CSA and UL.

If you want to make recommendations that people should make modifications to multimeters to improve the safety of the user, then you are making dangerous recommendations unless you have certified tests to prove your assertions. In this case you are an uneducated, unscientific, and dangerous idiot.
 

Offline npelov

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2017, 10:45:21 pm »
Guys don't fight!
Personally I think if you need a safe multimeter - you get one. You don't fool around and try to make it any safer than it is. I tried to be friend with electricity many times and it kicks me every time. So whenever I poke at line voltage I don't take any chances. The good expensive HRC fuses have one advantage - it's less likely to blow it because you know you'll pay another $15 for new one and you are extra careful. The fuses in my Brymen are more expensive than this multimeter! Damn, I don't want to make this one safer because I'll be scared to use the current measurement and blow an expensive fuse just because I probed 5V line. You don't wear bulletproof vest when you play with water guns.
 

Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2017, 10:47:06 pm »
You can name all the safety certificates you want (which I am all aware off).

A very respected, smart and highly intelligent person in science and engineering with over 50 years of experience, ones told me the following (unfortunately I'm not allowed to share his name in public)

"People always say safety first. Which is very incorrect and even dangerous.
It is thinking first (just follow basic science and engineering), than safety and third is sometimes just random bad luck"

In fact, it is even proven that blindly following safety protocols can even lead to potentially more dangerous situations.
You should teach people the how and why instead.

With me a lot of people in the field are getting extremely sick of all the ridiculous so called 'safety rules'.
You can write pages about how many years of experience you have and what kind of qualifications or certificates etc, but it all simply comes down to some general science knowledge.
Because it simply doesn't make sense why nobody cares about batteries, while it doesn't cost much to kill someone very easily with a 9V battery!
I know companies/countries where someone isn't even allowed to handle a bloody standard knife anymore  |O :palm: :palm:
If people are to dumb to know what they are doing, they shouldn't be doing it in the first place.
In fact, in a lot of countries that's even how the law system work.
Which means that it's not important anymore if a product was 'unsafe', just by the fact that you were doing things you weren't qualified for cancels everything out.

Btw, with all the respect, but I don't know who brainwashed people that 'you need approved safety facilities' to test safety.
Than you simply have fallen in the big marketing trap.
You forget the reason WHY these facilities exist, with the one and only reason: cover themselves in court.
Nothing more, nothing less. That doesn't mean that other ways aren't safe.
(in fact I know many so called 'safety regulations' in some countries that are absolutely forbidden in others)
Second to that, if safety is so important, why is it SO difficult and SO expensive to get these tests done, of to even get the basic documents?
These things should be open to the public.

All of this doesn't mean that there are people out there that make these type of meters, review a lot of meters or just have a very good understanding what potential dangerous there are and how to tackle them or are just smart people with enough knowledge/resources to find that out.
These meters and safety tests are not done by unknown hyper smart aliens.

So in fact, I would ENCOURAGE people to dig into this and share it to the public because in my opinion that's even your responsibility as an engineer/scientist.
And to add something extra for the people who have so "many experience in the field", maybe it would be better to help people out, explain it how it is done properly instead of kicking people shins.
If you can make the time and energy to rant, you can also use the same time and energy to be productive instead.
Talking about proving.......




 
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 10:51:31 pm by b_force »
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Offline digsys

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2017, 11:58:25 pm »
I'm NOT going to buy one ... I'm NOT going to buy one ... I'm NOT going to buy one ... I'm NOT going to buy five ... DOH !!
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2017, 02:31:35 am »
When people talk about modifying a multimeter to make its input protection "better", I cringe. You might be able to reliably improve the sensitivity of the meter to damage and failure. Don't fool yourself into thinking that the meter is safer for the user.
...
Joe has done many tests and his thread was originally something to with matching CAT ratings, but he has edited the title to remove this association and for good reason. Joe has also modified meters to make them, the meters themselves, survive HIS tests. His tests are not safety tests. They might have a some relation to the safety of a meter but that is not his goal nor should the results infer any safety level of the meters he tests. It is quite possible, even likely, that his modified UT61E will pass CATIII/600V without any problems, but it has not been tested under the requirements for that rating and that means it actually could be a bigger bomb in your hand under the wrong circumstances than the original.

My point for ranting here is that when people casually mention modifying their meters to better the input protection they either have no idea what they are saying, have no idea what safety actually implies, but even worse they might give the casual reader the idea that modifying a multimeter is automatically a good thing and nothing could go wrong.
.....
Sure, modifying is fun, can be useful, educational, and even money saving, but it cannot imply better safety. If you modify a meter, keep it on the bench and mark it as mentioned before. It should never be used on anything higher than CATII, maybe even CATI.

My highly modified UNI-T UT61E is more robust, has lower burden voltage and a much low temperature coefficient than it did when I bought it.  Not to mention it's adaptive backlight and that it can measure 20A for extended periods of time.    You would have to be a complete idiot to think it was safe.   It looks more like a death trap. 

You are right that when I modify them, it is to pass my tests which are different from the IEC standards.  The main differences being the double the FWHH and much lower available energy.  The energy really only comes into play if a meter were to breakdown.  We just don't see the level of explosions you will see with a real combo generator.   However if the meter does not breakdown, that energy is absorbed by the generator (not the meter) and in these cases, I would expect the meter to handle the same levels on a certified combo generator.   This is why when we had a member repeat the testing I did on the Fluke 101 at 12KV, it had no problems.   If we took Dave's 121GW for example that failed at 1.5KV 2KV, putting it on a real surge generator we may see some action.  While the meter may not survive or be repairable after such a test, we will assume it is safe per the standard. 

I've mentioned it before that I think the majority of the safety would be mechanical.  I suspect the protection circuitry on the voltage input is really there to prevent damage to the meter, not for safety.  I have a TPI / Summit  meter that I tested and it failed just by rotating the selector switch through the settings with the 220V applied.   It's happened four times now, so fairly rare.   This meter was UL approved to meet the safety standards.  Someone wrote that companies will falsify the cert but UL does maintain an on-line database that makes it simple enough to check.     Dave's preproduction 121GW failed at 2KV with it's MOVs, PTCs and clamps.  The AN8002 (lower end version) failed at 3KV, with just a PTC and clamp.  Dave has stated that if the 121GW passes the safety tests, it's good enough. 


With me a lot of people in the field are getting extremely sick of all the ridiculous so called 'safety rules'.
You can write pages about how many years of experience you have and what kind of qualifications or certificates etc, but it all simply comes down to some general science knowledge.

.....

Btw, with all the respect, but I don't know who brainwashed people that 'you need approved safety facilities' to test safety.
Than you simply have fallen in the big marketing trap.
You forget the reason WHY these facilities exist, with the one and only reason: cover themselves in court.
Nothing more, nothing less. That doesn't mean that other ways aren't safe.
(in fact I know many so called 'safety regulations' in some countries that are absolutely forbidden in others)
Second to that, if safety is so important, why is it SO difficult and SO expensive to get these tests done, of to even get the basic documents?
These things should be open to the public.

All of this doesn't mean that there are people out there that make these type of meters, review a lot of meters or just have a very good understanding what potential dangerous there are and how to tackle them or are just smart people with enough knowledge/resources to find that out.
....

I agree that the IEC standards should be public domain.  I'm sure you are aware that the standards are more than just for safety.  My guess is you are just referring to the 61010 standard that most of the meter's documents will call out. 

The cost to setup a lab like this is going to be more overhead than most companies could afford.  Care to guess at the price of the large compliance chamber I showed? 

Interesting comment about "getting extremely sick of all the ridiculous" safety regulations.  I have to venture out of my hole from time to time and am always amazed at the level rules at some places I visit.  While many are safety related, a fair number of them are in place for process control.   Today I visited a large power plant which really gave me a whole new perspective on electrical safety.     

I agree with your comment that just because a company self certified, does not mean the product is not safe or would fail if tested at an independent lab.  But I doubt very much that this particular meter would pass the CAT III levels. 
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 03:24:18 pm by joeqsmith »
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Online Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2017, 03:44:14 am »
When people talk about modifying a multimeter to make its input protection "better", I cringe.

So do I.

Quote
You might be able to reliably improve the sensitivity of the meter to damage and failure.

... which is not impossible, but ...

Quote
Don't fool yourself into thinking that the meter is safer for the user.
BINGO!
 

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2017, 04:16:59 am »
Don't fool yourself into thinking that the meter is safer for the user.
BINGO!
Doesn't make much sense to me. If you make a meter safer, then it is in fact safer.

Some of us have some experience in electronic design. Issues like voltage clearance, fuse rating, etc are all understandable design problems. If I modified a meter for my own use, I would be comfortable.
 

Online boffin

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2017, 04:41:44 am »
Given the lack of a couple important mA ranges (likely the MOST important ones), I doubt I'd be interested in this, nor recommend it.  However, does the AN8002 have those ranges?  I'm always on the lookout to suggest things to people getting started; and for under $20, the 8002 looks like it does most of what beginner makers need (including useful Freq Counter/Duty Cycle)
 

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2017, 04:45:05 am »
Sometimes I think some people would only be satisfied if every meter was Cat IV 1000V - and even then they would worry that somebody might pick it up and connect it to a lightning rod, in a storm, in Darwin, while standing in a puddle of salt water, naked, and surrounded by crocodiles.  A Fluke would be fine in that scenario of course, patentend croc-repellant in the special yellow plastic I expect.

How many hours do people spend reading EEVBlog forum using a tablet connected to a mains charger... I wonder how well the average mains charger would fare when a 6000V impulse comes down the wire (Cat II 1000V), but we don't really give it a second thought.
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Offline alm

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2017, 04:46:08 am »
I do not think a meter that clearly lies about its safety should be recommended to beginners. I am not at all claiming that beginners need a meter designed for industrial use. I would actually be fine with a meter that can not measure mains voltages. But at least it should be honest about it, since beginners will not be able to judge this for themselves.
 

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2017, 04:51:03 am »
.  However, does the AN8002 have those ranges?

The 8002 (RM102, KT102.... ) has a 60mA range (6000 count), so yes it will give you 2 digits after the decimal for 1-60mA before it steps up.  However it does not have uA ranges (at least not without modification?).

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Offline alm

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2017, 05:09:54 am »
Sometimes I think some people would only be satisfied if every meter was Cat IV 1000V - and even then they would worry that somebody might pick it up and connect it to a lightning rod, in a storm, in Darwin, while standing in a puddle of salt water, naked, and surrounded by crocodiles.  A Fluke would be fine in that scenario of course, patentend croc-repellant in the special yellow plastic I expect.
Most people (including me) complain about the false labeling, giving a false sense of safety. The manufacturer was the one that brought up the ridiculous CAT III 600 V rating. In my opinion CAT I 50 V would be perfectly fine for a beginner or as a second meter for many experienced people, with the understanding that it is not to be used near high voltage or mains circuits (which a beginner should not be messing with anyway).

How many hours do people spend reading EEVBlog forum using a tablet connected to a mains charger... I wonder how well the average mains charger would fare when a 6000V impulse comes down the wire (Cat II 1000V), but we don't really give it a second thought.
First, a charger is not designed for a 1000 V circuit. So if anything, it would be CAT II 300 V (never mind that IEC61010 does not apply to chargers). And to answer your question, IEC60950 (which I believe would be applicable) requires a Hi-pot test of 3000 VAC / 4000 VDC for 60 seconds. So while being a different test from the transient used by IEC61010, it is not that far off.
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2017, 05:11:39 am »
You can name all the safety certificates you want (which I am all aware off).

Thank you for your permission, I was really worried I would not get it.

A very respected, smart and highly intelligent person in science and engineering with over 50 years of experience, ones told me the following (unfortunately I'm not allowed to share his name in public)

I can invent imaginary friends too, I think I had one when I was 3.

"People always say safety first. Which is very incorrect and even dangerous.
It is thinking first (just follow basic science and engineering), than safety and third is sometimes just random bad luck"

Your imaginary friend has a problem with grammar. Too bad you can't translate WTF he is saying.

In fact, it is even proven that blindly following safety protocols can even lead to potentially more dangerous situations.
You should teach people the how and why instead.

Right, knowledge prevents people from making mistakes, always.... Is this you saying this or your imaginary friend?

With me a lot of people in the field are getting extremely sick of all the ridiculous so called 'safety rules'.

Yes, safety rules only exist for those not as perfect in every way and every action as you are. I can understand why you wouldn't care as you will never and have never made an error in anything. Everyone in the past who has ever been injured or killed has been because they, and they alone, did not have the knowledge of a procedure.

You can write pages about how many years of experience you have and what kind of qualifications or certificates etc, but it all simply comes down to some general science knowledge.

Wow, sorry everyone, I should never have brought up experience and training. These must never have anything to do with reality again.

Because it simply doesn't make sense why nobody cares about batteries, while it doesn't cost much to kill someone very easily with a 9V battery!
I know companies/countries where someone isn't even allowed to handle a bloody standard knife anymore  |O :palm: :palm:
If people are to dumb to know what they are doing, they shouldn't be doing it in the first place.
In fact, in a lot of countries that's even how the law system work.

Really? How does someone know not to do something when they don't know not to do it? Certainly encouraging people to not do things they don't know sufficiently how to do properly is EXACTLY what I have been arguing. So you agree with me. You just said so. WTF are you on about then?

Which means that it's not important anymore if a product was 'unsafe', just by the fact that you were doing things you weren't qualified for cancels everything out.

 |O

Btw, with all the respect, but I don't know who brainwashed people that 'you need approved safety facilities' to test safety.
Than you simply have fallen in the big marketing trap.

Right, lets have people who don't know what they are doing or can't prove what they are doing is correct, let's have them do the testing. Wait, did you just say "If people are to dumb to know what they are doing, they shouldn't be doing it in the first place."  :palm:

You forget the reason WHY these facilities exist, with the one and only reason: cover themselves in court.
Nothing more, nothing less.

OK, now that is just totally bat shit tin foil hat time. Nothing more, wow......

That doesn't mean that other ways aren't safe.

But other methods that are unknown to be safe should not be the default, idiotic reasoning.....

(in fact I know many so called 'safety regulations' in some countries that are absolutely forbidden in others)
Second to that, if safety is so important, why is it SO difficult and SO expensive to get these tests done, of to even get the basic documents?
These things should be open to the public.

Yeah yeah, people drive on the other side of the road in some places too, idiotic reasoning....

All of this doesn't mean that there are people out there that make these type of meters, review a lot of meters or just have a very good understanding what potential dangerous there are and how to tackle them or are just smart people with enough knowledge/resources to find that out.
These meters and safety tests are not done by unknown hyper smart aliens.

And people make mistakes, don't know everything, and forget certain details. That is why we have repeatable tests for safety that are replicated  by different people who follow checklists. That is how human errors get caught.

So in fact, I would ENCOURAGE people to dig into this and share it to the public because in my opinion that's even your responsibility as an engineer/scientist.
And to add something extra for the people who have so "many experience in the field", maybe it would be better to help people out, explain it how it is done properly instead of kicking people shins.
If you can make the time and energy to rant, you can also use the same time and energy to be productive instead.
Talking about proving.......

Sorry everyone, I am being a non-productive world citizen by trying to educate. Forget all the rules everyone. I was wrong, past events, experience and the rules to save people from harm are all just smoke and mirrors and corporate lawyers. Follow the person who is tired of having to be safe. He must be right!
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #51 on: July 16, 2017, 06:32:45 am »
To be clear, I am not bad mouthing this meter. For a bench electronics meter it seems to be a relatively good buy except for the current measurement limitations it seems to have. Except for the false CAT ratings it has I would be happy to recommend it from what I see.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #52 on: July 16, 2017, 08:21:54 am »
So whenever I poke at line voltage I don't take any chances. The good expensive HRC fuses have one advantage - it's less likely to blow it because you know you'll pay another $15 for new one and you are extra careful.

The fuses are there so the meter meets its CAT ratings (ie. it doesn't matter where the range selector is) but you should never need them in practice.

In practice you should double-triple check that the switch is on 'voltage' before going anywhere near the DUT.

If you're ever in a situation where a bigger fuse would mean the difference between life/death then you're doing it very wrong.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 08:29:10 am by Fungus »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2017, 08:44:44 am »
Don't fool yourself into thinking that the meter is safer for the user.
BINGO!
Doesn't make much sense to me. If you make a meter safer, then it is in fact safer.

You're failing to understand the difference between "safety" and "robustness".

You can easily make a meter more robust by adding PTCs, etc.

Making it safer is a lot more difficult, eg. Are you really going to cut slots in the PCB  and/or improve the spacing between PCB traces, etc.? No amount of PTCs will save you if there's a more fundamental problem somewhere else.

If you want a 'safe' meter then buy a meter with a suitable safety rating from a trusted manufacturer.
 
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Offline kalel

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #54 on: July 16, 2017, 09:11:04 am »
Don't fool yourself into thinking that the meter is safer for the user.
BINGO!
Doesn't make much sense to me. If you make a meter safer, then it is in fact safer.

You're failing to understand the difference between "safety" and "robustness".

You can easily make a meter more robust by adding PTCs, etc.

Making it safer is a lot more difficult, eg. Are you really going to cut slots in the PCB  and/or improve the spacing between PCB traces, etc.? No amount of PTCs will save you if there's a more fundamental problem somewhere else.

If you want a 'safe' meter then buy a meter with a suitable safety rating from a trusted manufacturer.

Not being experienced, how much is the meter case itself important when it comes to safety and user (not device) protection? Probe insulation as well, I would assume.
 

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #55 on: July 16, 2017, 09:25:58 am »
Don't fool yourself into thinking that the meter is safer for the user.
BINGO!
Doesn't make much sense to me. If you make a meter safer, then it is in fact safer.

You're failing to understand the difference between "safety" and "robustness".

You can easily make a meter more robust by adding PTCs, etc.

Making it safer is a lot more difficult, eg. Are you really going to cut slots in the PCB  and/or improve the spacing between PCB traces, etc.?
Yes. Why not?
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #56 on: July 16, 2017, 09:58:34 am »
Making it safer is a lot more difficult, eg. Are you really going to cut slots in the PCB  and/or improve the spacing between PCB traces, etc.?
Yes. Why not?

You are going to do your own PCB layout for this $20 meter, and then remove and resolder all components including the chip-on-board main IC?! Yeah, sure...  :palm:
 

Online amspire

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #57 on: July 16, 2017, 10:11:40 am »
Making it safer is a lot more difficult, eg. Are you really going to cut slots in the PCB  and/or improve the spacing between PCB traces, etc.?
Yes. Why not?

You are going to do your own PCB layout for this $20 meter, and then remove and resolder all components including the chip-on-board main IC?! Yeah, sure...  :palm:
No. Why would I do that? If a clearance is too small, a slot can be added, or a separator added. You make it sound like a multimeter is beyond the understanding of mortals.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #58 on: July 16, 2017, 10:27:45 am »
If a clearance is too small, a slot can be added, or a separator added. You make it sound like a multimeter is beyond the understanding of mortals.

No, I don't. I am merely implying that those slots are not added as an afterthought, but are planned as part of the layout process. It would be a very lucky coincidence if, in an existing compact multimeter layout, you find room for slots in all places where they are needed to meet the stated CAT ratings.

Well, mill away to your heart's content. You will only be wasting $20 and a few hours of your time...
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #59 on: July 16, 2017, 11:08:27 am »
Not being experienced, how much is the meter case itself important when it comes to safety and user (not device) protection?

Quite important. The 'explosion' is copper turning into gas inside the meter, along with a increase in volume. Fluke cases are designed to hold that in and release it slowly.

There's quite a few videos of exploding meters on youtube. I think joe's managed  burst a couple of cases, too.

 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #60 on: July 16, 2017, 11:11:27 am »
Making it safer is a lot more difficult, eg. Are you really going to cut slots in the PCB  and/or improve the spacing between PCB traces, etc.?
Yes. Why not?

OK, go ahead. Let's hope there's nothing important on the other side of the board where you cut your slots.

Be sure to post test results.  :popcorn:

PS: Joe's actually done similar modifications to meters in his robustness thread.
 

Offline BU508A

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #61 on: July 16, 2017, 11:32:05 am »
There is no reason to buy, or, even worse, to use this meter.
It is lying about its safety specs --> getting immediatly disqualified.
End of story.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #62 on: July 16, 2017, 11:40:27 am »
There is no reason to buy, or, even worse, to use this meter.
It is lying about its safety specs --> getting immediatly disqualified.
End of story.

You're saying we might die if we measure a 1.5V battery with this meter?  :o

Thanks for the warning!
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #63 on: July 16, 2017, 11:41:49 am »
There is no reason to buy, or, even worse, to use this meter.
It is lying about its safety specs --> getting immediatly disqualified.
End of story.

I don't think these categorical statements help anyone -- and they don't help your reputation on the forum either. There are obviously plenty of reasons for buying and using this multimeter, as witnessed by the thread above and also the main thread on this meter. And I am sure your post will not be the end of the story; to be witnessed by more posts below.

You are free to make the safety rating your personal top priority; but then please state it as such. For me (personally, again), having a compact backup meter with a very nice display and with low current/low voltage capability, at a very attractive price, makes this a worthwhile purchase. I will add a sticker to point out that it must not be used on mains voltages, and will be merry.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 11:45:56 am by ebastler »
 
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Offline BU508A

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #64 on: July 16, 2017, 12:03:49 pm »
There is a deeper reason for this categorial statement.
It is not a problem, if this thing is used by people, which are experienced, knowing, what they are doing and do know about the limitations of such a thing.
Fine.
But, because of the poor safety design of this thing, it is more likely, that it will fail than, let's say, a Brymen 869s.
And when it fails, it could be, that it'll cause more damage, injuries etc. than the Brymen. Or a Fluke 87V.
And all this for a $20 meter?
No way.
And even, if you are knowing what you are doing, what if somebody else grabs this meter and poking around a bit?
My experience taught me, that stickers, warnings etc. will be ignored. For obscure reasons.
I'm not talking about highly trained people like engineers in this respect. I have a nephew which is very curious about
the things I'm doing and I would never excuse myself, if he's grabbing such a meter to measure stuff and he will get injured or even worse because of such a crappy meter.
The main point is: you do not have it under control anytime, anywhere.  So, the safest thing is: there is no such meter around, therefore nobody can use it.

And yes, I am aware, that there is no such thing as 100% safety. But to me it makes a differences, if a thing will fail in 1% of the cases using it or in 0.001% of the cases using it. And how it will behave, if it is failing.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #65 on: July 16, 2017, 12:18:02 pm »
And all this for a $20 meter?
No way.

I have much less of a problem with this one than a $60 meter like the UT61E (for example). People buying a UT61E might think they're getting a decent meter - $60 is a lot of money.

Even worse was the $180 Uni-T bought by Dave. Even Dave thought he was getting a decent meter, but nooooo.

And even, if you are knowing what you are doing, what if somebody else grabs this meter and poking around a bit?
My experience taught me, that stickers, warnings etc. will be ignored. For obscure reasons.
I'm not talking about highly trained people like engineers in this respect. I have a nephew which is very curious about
the things I'm doing and I would never excuse myself, if he's grabbing such a meter to measure stuff and he will get injured or even worse because of such a crappy meter.
The main point is: you do not have it under control anytime, anywhere.  So, the safest thing is: there is no such meter around, therefore nobody can use it.

You're free to not buy one just like we should be free to accept the risks.

Or you could buy a gun safe for your meters.

Or ... you could try educating your nephew. When I do electronics classes I open up a DT830B and show them the blank space where the fuse was supposed to be, a $15 meter and show them the tiny fuses, and then a Fluke. The message usually sinks in.

 

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #66 on: July 16, 2017, 12:18:40 pm »
There is a deeper reason for this categorial statement.
It is not a problem, if this thing is used by people, which are experienced, knowing, what they are doing and do know about the limitations of such a thing.
Fine.
But, because of the poor safety design of this thing, it is more likely, that it will fail than, let's say, a Brymen 869s.
And when it fails, it could be, that it'll cause more damage, injuries etc. than the Brymen. Or a Fluke 87V.
And all this for a $20 meter?
No way.
And even, if you are knowing what you are doing, what if somebody else grabs this meter and poking around a bit?
My experience taught me, that stickers, warnings etc. will be ignored. For obscure reasons.
I'm not talking about highly trained people like engineers in this respect. I have a nephew which is very curious about
the things I'm doing and I would never excuse myself, if he's grabbing such a meter to measure stuff and he will get injured or even worse because of such a crappy meter.
The main point is: you do not have it under control anytime, anywhere.  So, the safest thing is: there is no such meter around, therefore nobody can use it.

And yes, I am aware, that there is no such thing as 100% safety. But to me it makes a differences, if a thing will fail in 1% of the cases using it or in 0.001% of the cases using it. And how it will behave, if it is failing.

I do agree with you. Such cheap meters are quite appealing to beginners and I remember myself as a beginner using shit meters (I didn't know there were shit). When I started working on mains with power supplys etc I used those meters too.
Now I woudn't but with no other meter around or at the other side of the room, who would measure mains with it ? I strongly believe that say the good meter is across the room, even with experience youre are likely to use the cheap one you have at hands.
Now think of a newbie using such a meter not knowing the risks... I would never reccomend such a meter to a newbie, I couldn't.
Plus stickers and so on don't do shit.
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Offline BU508A

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #67 on: July 16, 2017, 12:22:28 pm »
Jep. In my humble opinion safety is not alone about personal safety. It is also dedicated to circumstances and other people.
That  is one of the things I've learned since I was 12 years old and joined the voluntary fire brigade in my home village.
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Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #68 on: July 16, 2017, 12:29:12 pm »
The safety paranoia and scaremongering is getting a bit too much.. Is this what Fluke propaganda does?
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Offline Rbastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #69 on: July 16, 2017, 12:32:48 pm »
The safety paranoia and scaremongering is getting a bit too much.. Is this what Fluke propaganda does?

Propaganda of every safe meter.
Everybody is free to buy what they want, just don't put others in danger. I'm just giving my opinion here, agree or don't.
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Offline BU508A

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #70 on: July 16, 2017, 12:43:42 pm »
Even worse was the $180 Uni-T bought by Dave. Even Dave thought he was getting a decent meter, but nooooo.

I try to avoid UNI-T meters and do not recommend them at all.

Quote
You're free to not buy one just like we should be free to accept the risks.

Yes, everyone has to decide that for himself.

Quote
Or you could buy a gun safe for your meters.

*trolling ignored*

Quote
Or ... you could try educating your nephew. When I do electronics classes I open up a DT830B and show them the blank space where the fuse was supposed to be, a $15 meter and show them the tiny fuses, and then a Fluke. The message usually sinks in.

That is exactly, what I'm doing. Educate and explain things to him. But, since he is 8 years old, I am aware, that he will not always follow the things he was taught. And for this it is better, when there is no such thing around.
“Chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized.”            - Terry Pratchett -
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #71 on: July 16, 2017, 12:46:53 pm »
I doubt this meter would kill anybody on CAT II mains with any range selection.

(Anybody out there willing to sacrifice a fuse to see how eventful it would be?)

Besides, the CAT (ahem) is already out of the bag. This meter doesn't make anybody less safe in a world where Harbour Freight is giving away much worse meters for free.

 

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #72 on: July 16, 2017, 12:47:30 pm »
Seems to be  a lot of talk about modding this meter to improve it's safety.
I don't see the point, in fact I think it's a pretty dumb idea and a waste of time.
The meter is what it is, if you buy it just live with its limitations.
If you want a safe meter for electrical work, pay double (still under $50!) and get a Fluke 101.

It's also interesting to see so much talk on Youtube comments about how supposedly spectacular this meter is and why I didn't give it thumbs up. They seem to think I've uncovered the ultimate multimeter  ::)
Fact is it's missing major current ranges, doesn't have a REL function, has tiny PITA fuses, is obviously not a meter designed for electrical work, has quite ordinary build quality (some questionable soldering in fact), and who knows what variability in manufacturing and calibration over time.
Sure it's great for compact cheapie $25 meter, but it's hardly some utopia. But people seem to be going nuts over it for some reason.
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #73 on: July 16, 2017, 12:54:43 pm »
Seems to be  a lot of talk about modding this meter to improve it's safety.
I don't see the point, in fact I think it's a pretty dumb idea and a waste of time.


You can read a book on brain surgery, and convince yourself that in your couple of hours of reading the book. You know almost as much as real brain surgeons do, after their 20 or 30 years experience of performing thousands of operations.

Please DON'T go and operate on someone, in your mistaken belief that it will be SAFE.

tl;dr
Huge amounts of time and resources can be spent, making things safe. It is so easy for an armchair expert, to believe that they can do it, for a millionth of the cost, and a thousandth of the time it takes.
99.999999% of the time, they are wrong.
 

Offline alm

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #74 on: July 16, 2017, 12:56:07 pm »
I think it is the fact that the resolution goes down to values usually limited to bench DMMs. Some people might mistake this for accuracy (you compared it favorably to the Keysight bench DMM at low values). How many other handhelds go down to 1 µV / 10 nA / 10 mOhm? Should excite a low current nut like Dave :P. But definitely very niche.
 

Offline BU508A

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #75 on: July 16, 2017, 12:56:32 pm »
If you want a safe meter for electrical work, pay double (still under $50!) and get a Fluke 101.

I've read here in the forum a lot of recommendations of this Fluke 101.
I had a look at ebay and found this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/351230522178


These aren't real Fluke's, are they?
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Offline kalel

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #76 on: July 16, 2017, 12:59:59 pm »
If you want a safe meter for electrical work, pay double (still under $50!) and get a Fluke 101.

I've read here in the forum a lot of recommendations of this Fluke 101.
I had a look at ebay and found this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/351230522178


These aren't real Fluke's, are they?

Those go for about $38 on Ali. I don't know what they are exactly. Fluke for the Chinese market?
 

Offline Rbastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #77 on: July 16, 2017, 01:01:10 pm »
If you want a safe meter for electrical work, pay double (still under $50!) and get a Fluke 101.

I've read here in the forum a lot of recommendations of this Fluke 101.
I had a look at ebay and found this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/351230522178


These aren't real Fluke's, are they?
They actually are, but made for the chinese market only. They are lower quality and have only 1 year of waranty inside China. But still very good. I own one a Fluke 101.

Edit: Lower quality compared to those made in 'Murica, like the Fluke 177 for example.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 01:02:50 pm by Rbastler »
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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #78 on: July 16, 2017, 01:08:10 pm »
If people want a safe meter for electrical work, the Fluke 101 is $40 including delivery on Aliexpress!
UL certified and guaranteed consistent Fluke quality.
 

Online amspire

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #79 on: July 16, 2017, 01:12:16 pm »
Jep. In my humble opinion safety is not alone about personal safety. It is also dedicated to circumstances and other people.
That  is one of the things I've learned since I was 12 years old and joined the voluntary fire brigade in my home village.
If you were buying this meter for use by others or for use in a company, it would make sense to grind off the AN8008's suspect safety ratings and engrave "50V DC/AC Maximum".

For professional use, I would be getting something like a Fluke anyway. I think most people here are getting this meter for personal use and probably for low voltage use.

Just remember that the safest multimeter is not safe. I would not like getting stabbed by a multimeter probe, particularly by one of those really sharp Fluke ones. I wouldn't like being hit on the head by one knocked of the roof of a skyscraper. On the other hand, I would feel extremely safe with an AN8008 at 1000V if it was behind a blast shield.
 

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #80 on: July 16, 2017, 01:17:04 pm »
Flukes that I've sourced from China have ONLY English externally on them. Under the yellow holster on the back of the meter are some Chinese characters that specify ratings.
Any that have Chinese on the face I'd be suspicious of.
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Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #81 on: July 16, 2017, 01:19:55 pm »
Do us all a favor and get one for teardown, $38 shipping included Fluke 101. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/FLUKE-101-portable-handheld-digital-multimeter-F101/32791856013.html

And side-by-side comparison with the US made logo 101.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 02:26:52 pm by TheAmmoniacal »
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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #82 on: July 16, 2017, 01:35:05 pm »
I bought mine for 50€ delivered from a Alikexpress seller that has/had stock in Germany.
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Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #83 on: July 16, 2017, 02:02:52 pm »
I think most of us here would agree that unfortunately stupidity seems to trump safety every day of the week, reminding people of this won't do them any harm. This recently posted video below is a prime example of how a multimeter should not be used or tested under any circumstance, it is dangerous and serves no useful purpose to anyone, I believe the meter is a rebadged CEM of all things, madness. 

Bowls are for goldfish, or salads.   :o ::)

 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #84 on: July 16, 2017, 02:07:08 pm »
What's wrong with that? What if your basement is flooded and you still want to finish your project!
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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #85 on: July 16, 2017, 02:15:07 pm »
Do us all a favor and get one for teardown, $38 shipping included Fluke 101. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/FLUKE-101-portable-handheld-digital-multimeter-F101/32791856013.html
And side-by-side comparison with the US made 101.

When has there ever been a US made 101? or any of those low end Chinese market Flukes?
Fluke's experiment with making meters in China started with the (infamous) Fluke 19 maybe 15 years ago now?
 

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #86 on: July 16, 2017, 02:19:06 pm »
These aren't real Fluke's, are they?

Yes, they are real Flukes, designed for the Chinese market primarily.
The first one they ever did was the Fluke 19, and it was sold in Asia/Pacific only. Dick Smith used to sell them here in Oz.
AFAIK there has never been a rip-off clone Fluke on the market anywhere.
 

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #87 on: July 16, 2017, 02:22:04 pm »
You are of course correct - they are made in China, what I meant to differentiate was the Fluke 101 with the English logo from the one with the Chinese logo. First time I've seen the Chinese logo on a 101, or have these been common too?
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Offline MK14

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #88 on: July 16, 2017, 02:43:48 pm »
You are of course correct - they are made in China, what I meant to differentiate was the Fluke 101 with the English logo from the one with the Chinese logo. First time I've seen the Chinese logo on a 101, or have these been common too?

The one in the picture, with Chinese writing, appears to be a FAKE to me. I.e. NOT a real Fluke.

I am aware that there are genuine, Chinese manufactured Fluke 101's.

If you compare that photograph, with a real Fluke 101. You can tell that it is apparently a fake, because there are one or more mistakes, in the fake one. E.g. Look carefully at the "HOLD" button. The real one has perfectly centered and correct text, but the apparent fake one has the "HOLD" font towards the top of the button, and looks different.
The seller has at least two of the people they sold them to, complaining, with at least one complaint seeming to imply it is a fake one as well.

But I'm not an expert on possible Fluke fakes, and have little information to go on. So I could be wrong.

I took the following as a genuine example of a real (non-fake) one:
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 02:48:58 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline kalel

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #89 on: July 16, 2017, 03:00:01 pm »
It's not exactly the same angle, but here is a little animated gif:
 
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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #90 on: July 16, 2017, 03:08:09 pm »
Those Fluke 101s with the Chinese brand name on the front panel have been around for a while. See this video from October 2016, for example. (No teardown, unfortunately.)



« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 03:17:04 pm by ebastler »
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #91 on: July 16, 2017, 03:27:30 pm »
Those Fluke 101s with the Chinese brand name on the front panel have been around for a while. See this video from October 2016, for example. (No teardown, unfortunately.)

I seem to be wrong as regards it being a fake, and it may well be genuine. Sorry for any confusion.

I think Fluke should have kept their trademarked "Fluke" symbol/text, and added Chinese text if they want. But to miss out on the English "Fluke" text, I think is a mistake on Flukes part.

I presume they did it for business reasons, to minimize sales to the West, of the cheaper Chinese manufactured Flukes and/or to keep the Chinese happy.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #92 on: July 16, 2017, 03:35:01 pm »
Sure it's great for compact cheapie $25 meter, but it's hardly some utopia. But people seem to be going nuts over it for some reason.

People mainly see the price.

Also: There's enough positive things in the video that all the negatives are being filtered out (or at least, mentally justified).
 

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #93 on: July 16, 2017, 03:37:11 pm »
Jep. In my humble opinion safety is not alone about personal safety. It is also dedicated to circumstances and other people.
That  is one of the things I've learned since I was 12 years old and joined the voluntary fire brigade in my home village.
If you were buying this meter for use by others or for use in a company, it would make sense to grind off the AN8008's suspect safety ratings and engrave "50V DC/AC Maximum".

Are you sure that 50V is 100% safe under all conditions? Have you tested that?

We wouldn't want to take any chances...
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 03:41:31 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #94 on: July 16, 2017, 03:38:05 pm »
People mainly see the price.
Also: There's enough positive things in the video that all the negatives are being filtered out (or at least, mentally justified).

And, let's face it, it looks cute.  ;)
Neat form factor and industrial design, very nice display and backlight. Worked for me; I have one on order...
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #95 on: July 16, 2017, 03:40:56 pm »
These aren't real Fluke's, are they?

Yes, they are real Flukes, designed for the Chinese market primarily.
The first one they ever did was the Fluke 19, and it was sold in Asia/Pacific only. Dick Smith used to sell them here in Oz.
AFAIK there has never been a rip-off clone Fluke on the market anywhere.

Fluke has a lot of policemen watching us.

I'm sure we can all remember when they confiscated a whole shipment of Sparkfun meters because they were too yellow.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 03:45:24 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #96 on: July 16, 2017, 04:39:02 pm »
Nice multimeter. The microvolt resolution was the reason I just bought it from eBay, for EUR 17.99, free shipping. Sometimes this is just the shipping fee if you buy other products- Will open it when it arrives to fix the jack soldering :D
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Offline tronde

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #97 on: July 16, 2017, 04:44:15 pm »
People make a lot of noise about false CAT-ratings. Why don't the same people make a lot of noise about what really matters when it comes to electrical safety?

Most countries around the world have a lot of legal regulations about education and long-time experience specifying what kind of work you are allowed to do on almost ANY kind of electrical equipment or wiring.

My humble guess is that only a very few of you are legally allowed to touch anything that will require a multimeter with a CAT-rating.

So, why don't you spend your time telling beginners to stay away from what they are not allowed to do instead of all the scaremongering?

Wrong CAT-ratings are among the least thing a beginner should worry about when it comes to safety.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #98 on: July 16, 2017, 04:46:58 pm »
I bought mine for 50€ delivered from a Alikexpress seller that has/had stock in Germany.

Good pictures.  I've never had mine apart.  Mine is marked "Fluke" in English as well. 

After testing so many meters, I really appreciate Fluke using that large PTC.  Some companies will put these little piss ant PTCs.  They will typically arc over, damaging the outside layer.  Once they arc, they no longer offer a high impedance path.  Normally when a company skimps like this, they don't have enough protection to save the parts downstream and the meters are normally non-repairable.   One of the first things I did with the UNI-T UT61E, based on my experience was to swap out the piss ant PTCs for some larger parts. 

Then look at how well thought out the layout is on the 101.  I've seen a lot of crap layouts.  Normally it's where they will have loops and when you hit the meter with a transient, there can be enough drops in some of the traces that can damage the meter.  The $300 POS UNI-T UT181A is a great example of this.   In pure UNI-T style, the grill starter of all things killed it on the first hit. 

Sad thing about UNI-T is I am not aware of ANY of their products being certified for safety or EMC.  If they went through this process, they may actually learn how to design better products.   

The solid performer's during my testing from an electronic design standpoint were the Fluke 101/107/115, Brymen BM235s and Hioki DT4252.  Even the Gossen Metrawatt M248B with it's ability to change relay states from the magnetic hanger causing it to read low voltage levels, is still a solid player for robustness.  These meters don't have some supper secret techniques that make them so robust, nor did the companies spend a lot of money on the front ends. 

Once we get to about 4KV, there are very few meter's that survive and really there is little excuse for it IMO.  Of the ones that are damaged,  some designs have enough protection to prevent the IC/s from being damaged.  In these cases, it can be a matter of just changing a few common parts to bring them back to life.  Of the ones I have looked at, this still makes up a very low percentage and most become recycled waste. 

We know Dave's stance on the 121GW from his post:   

I think it's important to also understand Joe's tests in context.
The Fluke 87V, the most trusted meter on the market, fails every single one of Joe's tests. According to Joe's tests it's one of the worst meters on the market. Yet I doubt there is a single 87V owner ever who has seen their meter die due to any ESD or pulse overload etc.

I agree.. most of the tests are a worst case scenarios (black swan events). 87v is a standard when it comes to rugged meters but has failed many of Joes tests. In fact Fluke 101  :) has passed more tests then any of the more expensive meters.

For me it's simply a matter of has a meter passed independent safety testing (UL, ETL etc). If so then it's good enough to recommend and use it on anything it's rated for.
Sure, if a meter is failing ESD testing or something that could potentially be common place, then that may be a cause for concern, but even the Fluke 87V has shown no sign of doing that in practice for the 13 years it's been released as the V series, apart from Joe's test.

Which I agree from a safety standpoint but it's also why I try to inform people to look for meters that not only are certified for the 61010 but also for the latest EMC 61326 standard as well.  Meters that have passed the EMC standard have typically done well in my tests.  The TPI 194II, even though it was UL listed (for 61010-1) never mentions the EMC standard and sadly failed what I consider a very basic test.
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline kalel

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #99 on: July 16, 2017, 04:54:42 pm »
Sorry to ask guys and I'm sure it must be obvious, but where is the fuse on the Fluke 101? I did notice the PTCs, but didn't see a glass or ceramic fuse in the images.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #100 on: July 16, 2017, 05:02:22 pm »
Jep. In my humble opinion safety is not alone about personal safety. It is also dedicated to circumstances and other people.
That  is one of the things I've learned since I was 12 years old and joined the voluntary fire brigade in my home village.
If you were buying this meter for use by others or for use in a company, it would make sense to grind off the AN8008's suspect safety ratings and engrave "50V DC/AC Maximum".

Are you sure that 50V is 100% safe under all conditions? Have you tested that?

We wouldn't want to take any chances...

It would be nice if some of the large companies who are involved with this site, rather than having sales/marketing would have their compliance people involved.   Like that would ever happen.   Anyway, I believe the low voltage directive makes a distinction at 50VAC for safety.  Maybe OP is aware of this and why they specifically used this number.  :-// 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Rbastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #101 on: July 16, 2017, 05:02:54 pm »
There is no fuse in the Fluke 101. I doesn't measure current. For that you need the Fluke 106 that doesn't heave diode measurment. Only the Fluke 107 has them all. Of course it's the most expensive. The are trying to upsell you really hard here.
http://rbastlerblog.jimdo.com/
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Offline kalel

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #102 on: July 16, 2017, 05:05:57 pm »
There is no fuse in the Fluke 101. I doesn't measure current. For that you need the Fluke 106 that doesn't heave diode measurment. Only the Fluke 107 has them all. Of course it's the most expensive. The are trying to upsell you really hard here.

Right, I i didn't think about that part. Thanks!
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #103 on: July 16, 2017, 05:18:02 pm »
A lot a cheap meters are not very robust, electrically or mechanically, I'll grant you that. It can be easy kill the meter, but they are still far from hurting the user. What would it even take to hurt the user through the case of a meter?
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #104 on: July 16, 2017, 05:19:26 pm »
Sorry to ask guys and I'm sure it must be obvious, but where is the fuse on the Fluke 101? I did notice the PTCs, but didn't see a glass or ceramic fuse in the images.

The 101 can't directly read current.  It's one of the reasons I like the meter for beginners. One less thing to get you into trouble.  Of course you may still be able to use a shunt or an amplified shunt with it to measure current. 

The 107 can read current and is still fairly small but comes with a price.  Like its little brother the 101,  its also very robust.
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Rbastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #105 on: July 16, 2017, 05:24:03 pm »
Sorry to ask guys and I'm sure it must be obvious, but where is the fuse on the Fluke 101? I did notice the PTCs, but didn't see a glass or ceramic fuse in the images.

The 101 can't directly read current.  It's one of the reasons I like the meter for beginners. One less thing to get you into trouble.  Of course you may still be able to use a shunt or an amplified shunt with it to measure current. 

The 107 can read current and is still fairly small but comes with a price.  Like its little brother the 101,  its also very robust.

I'm thinking of building a shunt adapter for the Fluke 101. Basically some test leads cut open and a shunt soldered in place.
http://rbastlerblog.jimdo.com/
Gamma spectrometer works. Now some yellow crystals need regenerating and testing.
 

Offline kalel

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #106 on: July 16, 2017, 05:41:39 pm »
Sorry to ask guys and I'm sure it must be obvious, but where is the fuse on the Fluke 101? I did notice the PTCs, but didn't see a glass or ceramic fuse in the images.

The 101 can't directly read current.  It's one of the reasons I like the meter for beginners. One less thing to get you into trouble.  Of course you may still be able to use a shunt or an amplified shunt with it to measure current. 

The 107 can read current and is still fairly small but comes with a price.  Like its little brother the 101,  its also very robust.

I'm thinking of building a shunt adapter for the Fluke 101. Basically some test leads cut open and a shunt soldered in place.

Regarding making shunts, is it as simple as getting a high wattage, high accuracy resistor?
 

Offline BU508A

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #107 on: July 16, 2017, 05:43:34 pm »
A lot a cheap meters are not very robust, electrically or mechanically, I'll grant you that. It can be easy kill the meter, but they are still far from hurting the user. What would it even take to hurt the user through the case of a meter?

Found this video, please have a look at 5:30 onwards:


Part 2 of this video:


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Offline Rbastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #108 on: July 16, 2017, 05:45:25 pm »
I'm getting myself some 1Ohm 2W metal film resistors and put ten of them in paralell. 20W sould be enough and it also should be reasonably accurate. Buying a adequate shunt, could be quite expensive I think.
http://rbastlerblog.jimdo.com/
Gamma spectrometer works. Now some yellow crystals need regenerating and testing.
 

Offline JanJansen

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #109 on: July 16, 2017, 05:54:38 pm »
@Dave : if a chinese seller sees your adress, i,m sure they send you the best of whole china!
Anyways after looking your movie i also want one until i see a good bench model, thanks for saving me 830 euro.
I hope Aneng also releases a bench model sooner or later with nice specs, i dont like the batteries.

Hope we all get a good one like you!,only i can not verify, if another person also can test the accuracy ?, would be nice.
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Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #110 on: July 16, 2017, 05:58:01 pm »
A very spectacular show to sell Fluke meters.
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Offline BU508A

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #111 on: July 16, 2017, 06:17:30 pm »
A very spectacular show to sell Fluke meters.

Yep. Glad to see, that you are impressed.  :-+
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #112 on: July 16, 2017, 06:17:58 pm »
A lot a cheap meters are not very robust, electrically or mechanically, I'll grant you that. It can be easy kill the meter, but they are still far from hurting the user. What would it even take to hurt the user through the case of a meter?

It's not a simple question to answer because there are so many variables.... 

I think this is why we have standards for safety.   I can tell you that I have taken a few meters that would breakdown on my low energy transient generator and have ran them with a higher energy generator.  In these cases I have seen the leads come apart, sparks and such emit from the cases and I think a knob flew off once.  This testing is not even close to the levels that the IEC standard's would call for.  If you took 100 free HF meters, put them all into current mode, then without gloves, attach them across the 220 feed going into your house, one after then next, would you ever get hurt?  You would have to be pretty stupid to try it!

I find it interesting how many people continue to write me about how my testing far exceeds what the meters are designed to and how pointless it is.  That last one Cliff erased was really far fetched with the person was telling me how I was discharging these capacitors directly across the meters.  How stupid do you have to be to make statements like this?    Of course, you check their YT page and it's full of game videos or how to repair your car, then you understand. 

I have a few friends who are aware of the testing I have been doing with these meters.  They are not all EEs or have electrical backgrounds.  One friend of mine and I went to visit another person and my friend tells them about this testing I was doing.   This person gets very interested and asks why would I ever run these sort of tests.  I explain in basic terms assuming they know very little about electricity. It turns out this person was a retired electrician and actually worked for the power plant that I just visited.  There are very strict procedures that everyone follows, including the electricians.   One day he and another person need to go into one of the switch rooms to take some measurements.  Two people are always mandatory. They also have people in charge of shutting down gear and such.  It's never one person involved like Lightages mentions.   Anyway, they tell me how they never felt all the PPE was needed, until this day.  They have all their gear on.  He is holding the meter and the other person in front of him is holding the probes.  These are a few feet long.  He attaches the probes and next thing that happens if the meter cuts loose in this guys hands.   This changed their view on safety.  This is a big deal at a power plant and they (not the electricians involved) had to do an investigation to what happened and come up with corrective actions.  These people just don't get hired off the street or have a background in home wiring or IT. 

One of the people I was with had a spouse who was responsible for shutting down sections of the plant for other people to do their work.  I understand the stress of knowing if they made a mistake could cost someone their live drove them to find new employment.   Another person who was with us was explaining all of the testing and training that group had to continually go through.   Sounds like a very high stress job.   I guess they lost an electrician who entered an area that was to have been shut down.  Something was missed. 

I've been at places with some fairly large equipment (high energy).  Liquid cooled cables and such.   Nothing like this setup.    Like others have said, I doubt you are going to be allowed to take your UNI-T into work and use it on a CAT III or IV area in most cases. 

Sorry for the long post. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #113 on: July 16, 2017, 06:23:51 pm »
Sorry to ask guys and I'm sure it must be obvious, but where is the fuse on the Fluke 101? I did notice the PTCs, but didn't see a glass or ceramic fuse in the images.

The 101 can't directly read current.  It's one of the reasons I like the meter for beginners. One less thing to get you into trouble.  Of course you may still be able to use a shunt or an amplified shunt with it to measure current. 

The 107 can read current and is still fairly small but comes with a price.  Like its little brother the 101,  its also very robust.

I'm thinking of building a shunt adapter for the Fluke 101. Basically some test leads cut open and a shunt soldered in place.

Regarding making shunts, is it as simple as getting a high wattage, high accuracy resistor?

I'm getting myself some 1Ohm 2W metal film resistors and put ten of them in paralell. 20W sould be enough and it also should be reasonably accurate. Buying a adequate shunt, could be quite expensive I think.

I have a playlist that includes the videos  I have made where I have played around with shunts to measure current.  Personally, I will use an external shunt more often than the meters internal current measurement. 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZSS2ajxhiQDhlXQCyoNSDmUjb6lAqC8z
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #114 on: July 16, 2017, 06:31:41 pm »
I'm thinking of building a shunt adapter for the Fluke 101. Basically some test leads cut open and a shunt soldered in place.

I'm sure that will be much safer than the flimsy AN8008...  :P
Don' forget the HRC fuse, blast-proof enclosure etc.!
 

Offline Rbastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #115 on: July 16, 2017, 07:12:19 pm »
I'm thinking of building a shunt adapter for the Fluke 101. Basically some test leads cut open and a shunt soldered in place.

I'm sure that will be much safer than the flimsy AN8008...  :P
Don' forget the HRC fuse, blast-proof enclosure etc.!

Oh, I'm sure it will be.  https://www.pollin.de/p/alu-gehaeuse-raychem-rpg-aluein-98x64x34-mm-460166
Try to blast this one...
http://rbastlerblog.jimdo.com/
Gamma spectrometer works. Now some yellow crystals need regenerating and testing.
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #116 on: July 16, 2017, 07:19:05 pm »
Appreciate your input joe, all read!  ;) Big fan of your robustness testing videos.


Yet more suggestions for meters to test in the future: Chauvin Arnoux MTX 32xx or any of the clamshell style ones (another major European manufacturer akin to Gossen)
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Offline ebastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #117 on: July 16, 2017, 07:30:22 pm »
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #118 on: July 16, 2017, 07:30:31 pm »
I'm thinking of building a shunt adapter for the Fluke 101. Basically some test leads cut open and a shunt soldered in place.

I'm sure that will be much safer than the flimsy AN8008...  :P
Don' forget the HRC fuse, blast-proof enclosure etc.!

I can't think of a time I have ever used a hand held meter to look at current in a CAT III environment, outside of a clamp.  I have heard of people attaching a meter with the leads connected to the current inputs across the AC line by mistake.  Do this in a CAT II, chances are good you may only pop a fuse of trip a breaker.  CAT III and up is where the HRC fuses really come into play.   

From 61010-2-033:2012

MEASUREMENT CATEGORY   Short-circuit current (typical)   Location in the building installation
                                                          kA a
II                                            < 10                                 Circuits connected to MAINS socket outlets,
                                                                                       and similar points in the MAINS installation
III                                           < 50                                 MAINS distribution parts of the building
IV                                         >> 50                                 Source of the MAINS installation in the building

a The short-circuit current is calculated for a 1 000 V line-to-neutral voltage and the
minimum loop impedance. The values of loop impedances (installation impedances) do
not take into account the resistance of the probe assemblies and impedances internal
to the measuring equipment. These short-circuit currents vary, depending on the
characteristics of the installation.

In the case of the 101, there is no current input.  Chances of someone accidently leaving their external shunt attached and going across the line, well I won't say it can't happen but I would say chances are slim to do this unintentionally.  We do have people who think it's fine to connect their meter to the output of a MOT and wonder why it dies then blame the mfg.
 
Like Dave's uCurrent Gold most of the time I would use a shunt, it's unfused and out in the open.  I use them in circuits of 300A and less at 50V and under.   For me, the risk is fairly low. 

How many of you have hooked Dave's uCurrent Gold directly across the AC line to measure current?
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #119 on: July 16, 2017, 07:46:11 pm »
People make a lot of noise about false CAT-ratings. Why don't the same people make a lot of noise about what really matters when it comes to electrical safety?

Most countries around the world have a lot of legal regulations about education and long-time experience specifying what kind of work you are allowed to do on almost ANY kind of electrical equipment or wiring.

My humble guess is that only a very few of you are legally allowed to touch anything that will require a multimeter with a CAT-rating.

So, why don't you spend your time telling beginners to stay away from what they are not allowed to do instead of all the scaremongering?

Wrong CAT-ratings are among the least thing a beginner should worry about when it comes to safety.

More idiotic reasoning. :bullshit:

Beginners need to learn, and learning entails mistakes. A newbie should be able to buy a meter that has a CAT rating that matches its capabilities. A newbie is relying on his limited knowledge to select a meter that will help protect him against his mistakes.

Who needs standards of safety?

Would you feed your baby a jar of baby food that was labelled with false safety ratings?

Would you get into a car where the seat belts were only inspected by "Inspector #22" and had little gold stickers to prove their safety?

Would you go to a doctor who had the approval for his knowledge and care by someone on a forum?

Would you recommend that your child get in that "taxi" that only has a piece of paper taped to the window that says "Taxi"?

Would you, if you like to, do a bungie jump with someone who was parked at the side of the road in their old van on a bridge and was offering "Cheap Bungie Jumps Only $10"?

Would you tell newbies to buy whatever meter they want, marked with false safety markings or not, but stay away from things they don't know about?

Oh wait, you are saying that. You are telling people who don't know what is safe or not to ignore false safety ratings.......
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #120 on: July 16, 2017, 07:51:29 pm »
I have heard of people attaching a meter with the leads connected to the current inputs across the AC line by mistake.  Do this in a CAT II, chances are good you may only pop a fuse of trip a breaker.  CAT III and up is where the HRC fuses really come into play.   

I agree. Operator error, while intending to measure voltage in a CAT III circuit, might be one of the more common scenarios where HRC fuses are beneficial. (If there were no relevant scenarios at all, why are we complaining so much about meters which don't have proper HRC fuses while claiming CAT III?)

My point was -- why complain about the AN8008 and its tiny fuses, and then rig up "some test leads cut open and a shunt soldered in place" to measure current with your Fluke 101 ? That's what Rbastler initially announced he wanted to build, and what I was commenting on. Seems he has raised the bar in the meantime; and I have no doubt that a shunt can be built properly. Whether that gives you the most economic/compact/convenient solution, compared to buying e.g. a Brymen BM235 in the first place, is another matter...
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #121 on: July 16, 2017, 08:20:54 pm »
My point was -- why complain about the AN8008 and its tiny fuses, and then rig up "some test leads cut open and a shunt soldered in place" to measure current with your Fluke 101 ? That's what Rbastler initially announced he wanted to build, and what I was commenting on. Seems he has raised the bar in the meantime; and I have no doubt that a shunt can be built properly. Whether that gives you the most economic/compact/convenient solution, compared to buying e.g. a Brymen BM235 in the first place, is another matter...

IMO, any meter, not just the AN8008, with a built-in shunt you are prone to making a mistake with it.   The 101 with an external shunt I would again say chances are slim to make that same mistake.   As you mention the BM235 which is certified, so even if you do intentionally do some idiot move with the current inputs or just make a mistake, assuming you were not stupid enough to jump the fuse like some member's here, you should fair better than the AN8008 in the same case.  That's a guess on my part and if it were me, I can tell you which meter between the two I would choose hands down!   I would still say, the 101 without the current input would be a better setup.   

When I was looking at what Gossen meter to run, it seems they offered some without the current input as well.  I almost went that route but actually had hopes that the Ultra would be a replacement for my Brymen.  Not even in the same playing field.  It did cost more so I guess I could brag about owning a Gossen meter now.  :-DD  Sadly, I never did hear anything more from them. 

The old Fluke 97 scopemeters I picked up also don't have shunts.   When I leave the hole and need to look at the mains, my tool of choice is that HIOKI I showed.  Again, it has no internal shunt.   Like the Gossen I looked at and my Fluke 97, you use clamps with it.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #122 on: July 16, 2017, 08:31:29 pm »
Sorry to ask guys and I'm sure it must be obvious, but where is the fuse on the Fluke 101? I did notice the PTCs, but didn't see a glass or ceramic fuse in the images.

There isn't one, it doesn't have a current range.  :)

(which is how they make such a safe meter in such a small case)
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #123 on: July 16, 2017, 08:37:44 pm »
Regarding making shunts, is it as simple as getting a high wattage, high accuracy resistor?

Yes.

eg.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/152249838861

http://www.ebay.com/itm/262880450911


Edit: It's a good idea to add a fuse as well :-)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 08:46:06 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #124 on: July 16, 2017, 08:44:57 pm »
IMO, any meter, not just the AN8008, with a built-in shunt you are prone to making a mistake with it.   The 101 with an external shunt I would again say chances are slim to make that same mistake.   

And if you could get a meter which cannot measure voltage either, it would be even safer! ;)

Quote
As you mention the BM235 which is certified, so even if you do intentionally do some idiot move with the current inputs or just make a mistake, assuming you were not stupid enough to jump the fuse like some member's here, you should fair better than the AN8008 in the same case.  That's a guess on my part and if it were me, I can tell you which meter between the two I would choose hands down!   I would still say, the 101 without the current input would be a better setup.   

I have a BM257s, which I use as my "universal" meter. And I certainly intend to continue using that for anything mains-related. But the AN8008 is a neat addition for tinkering and travel use. For these purposes, I like the all-in-one functionality and the low-current and low-voltage ranges, which actually go beyond the BM257's capabilities.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #125 on: July 16, 2017, 08:50:49 pm »
There is no reason to buy, or, even worse, to use this meter.
It is lying about its safety specs --> getting immediatly disqualified.
End of story.


It's also not a cheap meter once you open up and re-solder and check all those solder starved joints,
what's ONE hour of your tech time worth?  assuming all the 'price point selected' components can survive another high temperature ordeal

I would not trust those ridiculous midget fuses to blow when required,
or even assume they have sand in them, much less an extinguishing type,
and highly doubt their shortass arc flash distance show stopping ability 

At least with cheapo glass fuses WYSIWYG,
and any concerned owner has the option to replace with a decent rated ceramic fuse in a STANDARD  M205, 3AG or HRC format,
rather than those standup comedy midget fuses   :-DD 

 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #126 on: July 16, 2017, 09:01:27 pm »
IMO, any meter, not just the AN8008, with a built-in shunt you are prone to making a mistake with it.   The 101 with an external shunt I would again say chances are slim to make that same mistake.   

And if you could get a meter which cannot measure voltage either, it would be even safer! ;)

Quote
As you mention the BM235 which is certified, so even if you do intentionally do some idiot move with the current inputs or just make a mistake, assuming you were not stupid enough to jump the fuse like some member's here, you should fair better than the AN8008 in the same case.  That's a guess on my part and if it were me, I can tell you which meter between the two I would choose hands down!   I would still say, the 101 without the current input would be a better setup.   

I have a BM257s, which I use as my "universal" meter. And I certainly intend to continue using that for anything mains-related. But the AN8008 is a neat addition for tinkering and travel use. For these purposes, I like the all-in-one functionality and the low-current and low-voltage ranges, which actually go beyond the BM257's capabilities.

I've never looked at the 257s.  For GP use I still like the 869s over any of them I have looked at.  Anymore, if I needed something with better specs for the home lab, I would just get a used name brand bench meter.   Seems like a better investment than a cheap meter.   

Yes, if you could remove the voltage input it would make the meter even safer.  I've looked at a meter like this.

https://youtu.be/7DL4OIKTnGE?t=192
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #127 on: July 16, 2017, 09:19:21 pm »
Yes, if you could remove the voltage input it would make the meter even safer.  I've looked at a meter like this.
https://youtu.be/7DL4OIKTnGE?t=192

;)
 

Offline tronde

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #128 on: July 16, 2017, 09:40:07 pm »
People make a lot of noise about false CAT-ratings. Why don't the same people make a lot of noise about what really matters when it comes to electrical safety?

Most countries around the world have a lot of legal regulations about education and long-time experience specifying what kind of work you are allowed to do on almost ANY kind of electrical equipment or wiring.

My humble guess is that only a very few of you are legally allowed to touch anything that will require a multimeter with a CAT-rating.

So, why don't you spend your time telling beginners to stay away from what they are not allowed to do instead of all the scaremongering?

Wrong CAT-ratings are among the least thing a beginner should worry about when it comes to safety.

More idiotic reasoning. :bullshit:

Beginners need to learn, and learning entails mistakes. A newbie should be able to buy a meter that has a CAT rating that matches its capabilities. A newbie is relying on his limited knowledge to select a meter that will help protect him against his mistakes.

Who needs standards of safety?

Would you feed your baby a jar of baby food that was labelled with false safety ratings?

Would you get into a car where the seat belts were only inspected by "Inspector #22" and had little gold stickers to prove their safety?

Would you go to a doctor who had the approval for his knowledge and care by someone on a forum?

Would you recommend that your child get in that "taxi" that only has a piece of paper taped to the window that says "Taxi"?

Would you, if you like to, do a bungie jump with someone who was parked at the side of the road in their old van on a bridge and was offering "Cheap Bungie Jumps Only $10"?

Would you tell newbies to buy whatever meter they want, marked with false safety markings or not, but stay away from things they don't know about?

Oh wait, you are saying that. You are telling people who don't know what is safe or not to ignore false safety ratings.......

I shall avoid calling people names. I will leave that to you since it seems like you have a lot of experience in that subject.




I do understand that you mean well, and wish to save people from trouble. That is a good thing.

BUT- you fail badly when it comes to one most imortant thing.
 You don't understand a shit about basic psychology.

When you give the impression that you will drop dead or your house will be a smoking pile of ash just because you use a non-approved multimeter you fail. Anyone with half a brain will know that it is not true. If it had been true it would have been widely known. When a beginner reads such scaremongering he wil ask himself "is this true?"

The obvious answer will be "no, it is not true". Therefore the beginner will think that you don't understand what you are talking about, and not pay any attention to what you really want him to understand.

So, the way you act, in the name of educating, is infact extremely counterproductive.

I myself prefer to spend my words on helping people to understand why. Long time experience has told me that it is more productive than to write a lot of words most people coose to ignore







And - you didn't answer my question in the post you quoted



So, why don't you spend your time telling beginners to stay away from what they are not allowed to do instead of all the scaremongering?




All the "what about" examples you list have very little to do with electrical safety and multimeters, but they make good examples for those who want to spot scaremongers.

You mention cars. That is interesting. Do you always drive the latest cars with the most advanced safety technology?
 
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Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #129 on: July 16, 2017, 09:47:55 pm »
I won't bother replying to your rather emotional response. I will let it stand by itself.

Edit:
If anyone can show me where I call people names, or attack people personally instead of the ideas presented, I will apologize immediately.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 09:59:43 pm by Lightages »
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #130 on: July 16, 2017, 09:51:58 pm »
For those who are interested, there is a sticky thread which I started in helping people avoid meters that are not rated correctly. It is factual information without emotion and drama. It has not been updated for a long time but I feel compelled to make some updates soon. Please read this thread if you want and take what you want from the information. It is presented to help, nothing more:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-list-of-multimeters-that-do-not-appear-to-meet-their-claimed-safety-specs/
 

Offline tronde

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #131 on: July 16, 2017, 10:10:09 pm »
I won't bother replying to your rather emotional response. I will let it stand by itself.

Edit:
If anyone can show me where I call people names, or attack people personally instead of the ideas presented, I will apologize immediately.

I am not emotional. I just want you to understand that the way you act is extremely counterproductive. You do obviously prefer to write "in big letters" so I felt that I should "adapt to the audience." Seems like you got the mesage.
From many of your posts on this forum I have got the impression that you are the "one with the answer"and have some difficulties with other peoples ideas.

If you had spent 10% of the words you have written about scaremongering on this forum on telling people about why, you would have gained thousands.



Since you can't manage to read your own text, I will paste it here "More idiotic reasoning."

 
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #132 on: July 16, 2017, 10:16:23 pm »
I won't bother replying to your rather emotional response. I will let it stand by itself.

Edit:
If anyone can show me where I call people names, or attack people personally instead of the ideas presented, I will apologize immediately.

Challenge accepted !!!   ;D
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #133 on: July 16, 2017, 10:17:17 pm »
I won't bother replying to your rather emotional response. I will let it stand by itself.

Edit:
If anyone can show me where I call people names, or attack people personally instead of the ideas presented, I will apologize immediately.


Since you can't manage to read your own text, I will paste it here "More idiotic reasoning."

Is that reasoning I am attacking, or the person? You are applying idiotic reasoning. I will not apologize for attacking poor reasoning. I am responding only because I respect the opinions of others and assume that idiotic reasoning can be corrected. I also correct my own idiotic reasoning regularly.

If I assume that idiotic reasoning cannot be corrected because the other person is beyond help, I don't bother trying.
 

Offline MK14

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #134 on: July 16, 2017, 10:21:16 pm »
In the interests of keeping this thread open for further discussions. (I.e. not giving the moderators, reason to close this thread).

Can we agree to disagree or something ?

Peoples opinions of safety and stuff like that, do vary. But it is best if it does not lead to arguments.
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #135 on: July 16, 2017, 10:42:11 pm »
In the interests of keeping this thread open for further discussions. (I.e. not giving the moderators, reason to close this thread).

Can we agree to disagree or something ?

Peoples opinions of safety and stuff like that, do vary. But it is best if it does not lead to arguments.

I wish people would agree to disagree on simple things. When people asset that safety is not worth considering and the markings on a multimeter are not to be counted in the evaluation of a multimeter, then disagreement is necessary.

When people suggest that modifying a multimeter with the intent to improve its safety is a wise, logical, or good thing to do, and that suggestion this to newbies, this needs argument. I am here trying to educate and help those who don't know better. The others are trying to shut me down for trying to show people the caution they need to take, as in education. The opposing view is to throw care out the window and too bad if you ae too stupid to know better.

I will not back down on this. Disagreements have a place. Idiotic reasoning and advice to newbies to ignore safety is to be argued.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 10:56:22 pm by Lightages »
 
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #136 on: July 16, 2017, 10:50:53 pm »
In the interests of keeping this thread open for further discussions. (I.e. not giving the moderators, reason to close this thread).

Can we agree to disagree or something ?

Peoples opinions of safety and stuff like that, do vary. But it is best if it does not lead to arguments.

It's no argument, a heated debate at best, let them resolve it,

they're both big boys with literary muscle with some VERY IMPORTANT points to back up that may benefit many here,

otherwise it will flare up again and again elsewhere at other posts,

how many are complaining or offended so far?


go Team Tronde!     :clap:
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 10:52:26 pm by Electro Detective »
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #137 on: July 16, 2017, 10:58:40 pm »
In the interests of keeping this thread open for further discussions. (I.e. not giving the moderators, reason to close this thread).

Can we agree to disagree or something ?

Peoples opinions of safety and stuff like that, do vary. But it is best if it does not lead to arguments.

I wish people would agree to disagree on simple things. When people asset that safety is not worth considering and the markings on a multimeter are not to be counted in the evaluation of a multimeter, then disagreement is necessary.

When people suggest that modifying a multimeter with the intent to improve its safety is a wise, logical, or good thing to do, and that suggestion this to newbies, this needs argument. I am here trying to educate and help those who don't know better. The others are trying to shut me down for trying to show people the caution they need to take, as in education. The opposing view is to throw care out the window and too bad if you ae too stupid to know better.

I will not back down on this. Disagreements have a place, Idiotic reasoning and advice to newbies to ignore safety is to be argued.

You have raised some good points, in this post.
Maybe I'm over-reacting, a bit.
Things have been civil in this thread, in all fairness.

Safety is very important.
But I guess, getting world-wide agreement, on what exactly safety is and what constitutes the correct level of safety. Varies from country to country.
 
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #138 on: July 16, 2017, 11:01:10 pm »
Can we all agree that this meter and many like this should be de-rated to Cat 0.111 at 30 volts ?   :clap:

Same deal with the supplied leads... safe to assume they are not shop soiled Pomona seconds   ;D
 

Offline MK14

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #139 on: July 16, 2017, 11:13:37 pm »
Can we all agree that this meter and many like this should be de-rated to Cat 0.111 at 30 volts ?   :clap:

Same deal with the supplied leads... safe to assume they are not shop soiled Pomona seconds   ;D

Part of the reason we have differing levels of safety expectancy. Is because we have a very varied and mixed audience on these forums.

On the one end of the spectrum you have Electronics professionals, who will ask, what the safest/best replacement fuses are to put in their expensive Fluke multimeter.

Then the other end of the spectrum, you can have amateur/beginner hobbyist level. Who maybe much less concerned about safety (unfortunately). Even though they probably have the most need for safe equipment, in the first place.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #140 on: July 16, 2017, 11:31:45 pm »
There is no fuse in the Fluke 101. I doesn't measure current. For that you need the Fluke 106 that doesn't heave diode measurment. Only the Fluke 107 has them all. Of course it's the most expensive. The are trying to upsell you really hard here.

Not really. There is genuine need for a voltage only meter in the electrical field. When you add current measurement you instantly make the meter more dangerous for the user and the equipment under test, as you can get the leads the wrong way around and short out your supply.
If I was an electrician I would deliberately buy a meter without current measurement.
 

Online IanB

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #141 on: July 16, 2017, 11:38:14 pm »
Regarding making shunts, is it as simple as getting a high wattage, high accuracy resistor?

Yes.

And no.

There are dedicated current shunts available with very low resistance and four wire connection terminals for the circuit and the measurement. A search for current shunt will find many examples.
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #142 on: July 16, 2017, 11:49:53 pm »
..There is genuine need for a voltage only meter in the electrical field. When you add current measurement you instantly make the meter more dangerous for the user and the equipment under test, as you can get the leads the wrong way around and short out your supply.
If I was an electrician I would deliberately buy a meter without current measurement.


Fluke 114 fan here, pre-tested leads and a T100 for those tasks   :-+

No current inputs means no (or less..)    'Fluke videos'   :o   type of problem 

That doesn't mean using these gives you a permit to be a confident prodder and ignore the usual 'don't trust anything or anyone' Safety Protocols!   

Fluke 114 has TRMS, MIN-MAX, an excellent Low Z function handy for ghost voltages and trip testing RCD/RCBO/GFCI,
and a good fast buzzer, and fwiw its readings pretty much agree with the 87 too
I doubt the 101 can touch it as an all rounder
ok, 114 is more money, but you only need ONE good meter for these tasks, come on don't be too cheap  :blah:

I'd rather risk the beefier 114 with it's standard quality Fluke leads going BANG! in my gloved hand or all over the shop,
than a 101, that resembles a pocket toy that no paying client would take seriously rocking up with one at a job     :wtf:  :palm:   :-DD
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 01:28:06 am by Electro Detective »
 

Online IanB

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #143 on: July 17, 2017, 01:28:40 am »
There has been some discussion here about using an external current shunt to measure current where perhaps the meter cannot measure current directly (e.g. Fluke 101), and how this might relate to safety.

One important factor is that if you use a current shunt to measure current, you will (should) usually build the shunt directly into the circuit under test as a fixture. As such, the safety considerations now become considerations for the circuit and not the meter. Typically this situation should occur in a lab setting and not in the field. In the field you should probably be using a clamp meter.

Having installed the shunt into the circuit, you now can attach the meter test leads to the shunt and you have the same safety considerations with the meter as when probing any other voltage. Overall, everything should be much more controlled and predictable than trying to break a circuit and probe the current directly.
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Online ejeffrey

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #144 on: July 17, 2017, 03:03:07 am »
People make a lot of noise about false CAT-ratings. Why don't the same people make a lot of noise about what really matters when it comes to electrical safety?

Most countries around the world have a lot of legal regulations about education and long-time experience specifying what kind of work you are allowed to do on almost ANY kind of electrical equipment or wiring.

My humble guess is that only a very few of you are legally allowed to touch anything that will require a multimeter with a CAT-rating.

This is rather beside the point and this argument is without merit, but I am going to respond because it is also completely wrong.
 
That certainly isn't true in the US, and I don't believe it is true most places in the world.  I don't know about Norway -- maybe all the stories about the excessive regulations are true, but your description isn't true in most of the rest of Europe either.  In the US you can't operate as a professional electrician without a license, but you can do almost anything in your own house that doesn't require a building permit.  I know this isn't true everywhere, but I don't believe most places are nearly as strict as you suggest.  In most of the US that means that you can pull new circuits from the main breaker panel.  Even if you can't, you can repair existing wiring, and you can certainly measure it with a voltmeter even if you don't change anything (for instance to diagnose a problem for which you might hire an electrician to fix.

And pretty much all of the regulation that does exist stops at the wall outlet.  There is basically zero restriction on who can work on a mains powered electrical appliance.  Anyone can (legally) replace a worn power cord or troubleshoot a line operated power supply.  Of course in the CAT rating system that is only a CAT-II environment, but it is still a situation where you want a meter that is not adding any danger -- and meters with deceptive labeling are definitely something worth being upset about, even if they are totally functional for low voltage applications.

Likewise, there is no restriction (in the US) on who can work on high voltages that are not part of the power distribution system.  I have in the past worked on high voltage power supplies capable of generating from hundreds to thousands of volts.  They don't have the same power behind them as a main distribution panel, but you can still have quite a bit of energy stored in a capacitor.  There is zero certifications, regulations, or licenses for who can do that in the US.  Other countries do have mandatory engineering licenses to be a professional electronics engineer, but in most places that is only required if you are doing so professionally.  And again, it doesn't exist in the US.  There is absolutely reasons for hobbyists to have safely designed meters, even if they are not doing the specific things that the cat rating is designed for (i.e., working on power distribution networks).

I do sort of agree that many people make too big of a deal about it, as if there is no value to a meter without CAT-4 600V ratings.  There are plenty of uses for multimeters that are never anywhere near a high power / high voltage circuit. The majority of electronics hobbyists would be well served by a safety-low voltage meter, or at most one that honestly meets CATII-300V, and the features this little $25 meter has that make it attractive: high resolution and low ranges are specifically things that don't require high voltage surge capability.
 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #145 on: July 17, 2017, 03:58:12 am »
Appreciate your input joe, all read!  ;) Big fan of your robustness testing videos.


Yet more suggestions for meters to test in the future: Chauvin Arnoux MTX 32xx or any of the clamshell style ones (another major European manufacturer akin to Gossen)

I think someone else asked me about one of these some time ago.  Maybe that was you.  I looked for a distributor.  There is very little info on them.  A little advice, invoking the Gossen brand as a comparison is not a good way to sell me on a product.  It will take some time to get the bad taste out of my mouth over that ordeal.   Who knows, maybe they are actually doing something on their end.   

Why do you call it a clamshell?  I would assume it folds up based on this.    Looking over their products, I think if I were to buy one, it would be the OX 5042.  Of course when I go to the following and select the Technical document, I get 404Not Found.  Giving me lots of confidence in them from the start.

http://www.handscope.chauvin-arnoux.com/en/documents/publications.aspx


       
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Online IanB

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #146 on: July 17, 2017, 05:14:49 am »
Of course when I go to the following and select the Technical document, I get 404Not Found.  Giving me lots of confidence in them from the start.

I did find this: (in French, though)

http://www.handscope.chauvin-arnoux.com/Portals/0/pdf/DT_Handscope_Ed01_FR.pdf
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Offline analogo

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #147 on: July 17, 2017, 08:27:56 am »
One additional detail: a few months ago I bought an UT136 on the same premises (nice meter for the price) - I did one mistake and the ohms/diode/continuity ranges are gone.

Which error?
 

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #148 on: July 17, 2017, 11:12:06 am »
There has been some discussion here about using an external current shunt to measure current where perhaps the meter cannot measure current directly (e.g. Fluke 101), and how this might relate to safety.

It's MUCH safer because it eliminates a whole class of errors.

ie. You're very unlikely to connect your shunt to your mains distribution panel.   :popcorn:
 

Offline WackyGerman

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #149 on: July 17, 2017, 11:13:49 am »
Well it is another cheapy crappy multimeter which doesn t meet the safety regulations and labelled with the wrong CAT rating . It s built down to the price with shitty input jacks , tiny little fuses and no input protection . It s not worth the money because it will not lasting a long time , it is dangerous to use because the uA range shares the same jack with voltage ranges . Don t buy this shit , it s a waste of money .
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #150 on: July 17, 2017, 11:16:37 am »
My humble guess is that only a very few of you are legally allowed to touch anything that will require a multimeter with a CAT-rating.

Well:
a) A 1.5V battery has a CAT rating.
b) Nobody needs a license to open up a power supply or anything else that plugs into a mains socket. That's CAT II (or even CAT III) right there.
 

Offline WackyGerman

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #151 on: July 17, 2017, 11:34:51 am »
My humble guess is that only a very few of you are legally allowed to touch anything that will require a multimeter with a CAT-rating.

Well:
a) A 1.5V battery has a CAT rating.
b) Nobody needs a license to open up a power supply or anything else that plugs into a mains socket. That's CAT II (or even CAT III) right there.

You can open it up and measure at your own risk . But if something badly happens like a fire it will bring you to the justice
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #152 on: July 17, 2017, 11:37:15 am »
Appreciate your input joe, all read!  ;) Big fan of your robustness testing videos.


Yet more suggestions for meters to test in the future: Chauvin Arnoux MTX 32xx or any of the clamshell style ones (another major European manufacturer akin to Gossen)

I think someone else asked me about one of these some time ago.  Maybe that was you.  I looked for a distributor.  There is very little info on them.  A little advice, invoking the Gossen brand as a comparison is not a good way to sell me on a product.  It will take some time to get the bad taste out of my mouth over that ordeal.   Who knows, maybe they are actually doing something on their end.   

Why do you call it a clamshell?  I would assume it folds up based on this.    Looking over their products, I think if I were to buy one, it would be the OX 5042.  Of course when I go to the following and select the Technical document, I get 404Not Found.  Giving me lots of confidence in them from the start.

http://www.handscope.chauvin-arnoux.com/en/documents/publications.aspx


       

Looks like I'm too late, the clamshell style meters (attached below) are listed as discontinued most places. Always been curious how the input protection looks like in those (and performs). Now replaced with MTX 3290.

Compared with Gossen because I suspect a similar ordeal, but isn't that just fun?  ;D

EDIT: In the US it seems to go by the model AEMC 2125.75,  still sold by AEMC on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/AEMC-2125-75-Multimeters-000-count-Graphical/dp/B00A8P6GOG

« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 11:50:15 am by TheAmmoniacal »
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Offline ebastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #153 on: July 17, 2017, 12:00:20 pm »
Well it is another cheapy crappy multimeter which doesn t meet the safety regulations and labelled with the wrong CAT rating . It s built down to the price with shitty input jacks , tiny little fuses and no input protection . It s not worth the money because it will not lasting a long time , it is dangerous to use because the uA range shares the same jack with voltage ranges . Don t buy this shit , it s a waste of money .

You may not want to buy it, but please refrain from telling me what to do.

I own a very nice set of jeweler's screwdrivers. They are very precise and handy to use. And, believe it or not, I do not use them to work on mains outlets, although those screwdrivers do not even bear a warning label cautioning me against that use. -- Horses for courses, and that is how I intend to use the AN8008 and my other meters as well.

By the way, for even more credibility, I recommend to cut back on the use of swear words and to omit the spaces before punctuation marks.
 
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Offline JanJansen

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #154 on: July 17, 2017, 12:05:17 pm »
It s not worth the money because it will not lasting a long time.

How do you know ?
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Offline WackyGerman

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #155 on: July 17, 2017, 12:17:56 pm »
Just look at the input jacks . They are not fitted properly and if you put in a plug you will push in the input jack and stress the solder joint of it on the board and it will break soon . The second problem is the lack of input protection . If a little static discharge goes into the multimeter or you accidently took the wrong function the ic will blow up
 
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Offline kalel

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #156 on: July 17, 2017, 12:23:35 pm »
Just look at the input jacks . They are not fitted properly and if you put in a plug you will push in the input jack and stress the solder joint of it on the board and it will break soon . The second problem is the lack of input protection . If a little static discharge goes into the multimeter or you accidently took the wrong function the ic will blow up

The first actually happened to a DT830 to me. It's not the solder joint that cracked though, it was the input jack metal holder part (not sure what it's called), somewhere in the middle (between the input jack and solder joint). I'm not sure if replacement parts can be purchased.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 12:26:59 pm by kalel »
 

Offline WackyGerman

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #157 on: July 17, 2017, 12:49:04 pm »
Oh that s even worse . A broken solder joint could be repaired but the input jack itself not . I don t think that you could buy spare parts for cheap multimeters , it would be too expensive for the manufacturer to keep them on stock . Anyway it would drive me nuts to repair the multimeter often before using it  :scared:
In my opinion good input jacks are an important point when buying a multimeter
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #158 on: July 17, 2017, 12:50:57 pm »
Just look at the input jacks . They are not fitted properly and if you put in a plug you will push in the input jack and stress the solder joint of it on the board and it will break soon .

Not if they're properly supported by the back of the case.

Which they are:


(OK, that's an AN8002 but it will be the same)

The second problem is the lack of input protection . If a little static discharge goes into the multimeter or you accidently took the wrong function the ic will blow up

Nope. These have been tested with joe's sparker and survived perfectly.



That one didn't fail until 3000V.

I think Everybody here knows that these meters aren't good for working with 230V AC. There are plenty of warnings in the video. For working with 5V, 12V, Arduinos, etc., they're fine.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 01:18:56 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline kalel

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #159 on: July 17, 2017, 01:52:10 pm »
I think Everybody here knows that these meters aren't good for working with 230V AC. There are plenty of warnings in the video. For working with 5V, 12V, Arduinos, etc., they're fine.

I learned a bit in this thread. In fact, I didn't know how dangerous (not whether or not, just how much) it was to use a multimeter on mains (although anything with mains always gets people careful with reason). I'm just not sure how it compares to other "cheap methods" such as those 'dangerous voltage detecting screwdrivers' (I guess you know what I mean). Non contact ones should be safe, but are not always dependable. I'm sure people use both in practice, as anything is safer than using your hand (or worse, both hands) to check if there's voltage or not.

Videos from Fluke and Joe and others can be helpful to see some of the dangers with some meters (e.g. Fluke exploding the DT830). Although, I have yet to learn how many of it applies to using the meter on proper range (voltage range), in which case I assume other protections come into play (case, probes, etc), and not e.g. which fuse is used. Of course, I need to watch a bit more and I'm sure I'll find out. :) As far as measuring mains current, if needed for some reason, seems safer with a clamp meter (plus, no need to cut a wire), as even a cheap clamp meter you're not connecting to the circuit.

I still like that there are cheap meters that can measure current, like the DT830, since it's quite useful for testing LEDs and other safe but interesting projects. It's always helpful to know the current, and some meters that can do both at the same time (e.g. USB power meters) can be very useful too. A meter like AN8002 or 8008 both seem to offer great advantages. Things like more accuracy (more or less important), capacitance, frequency, temperature (8002) all add a lot of functionality even for true beginners (on this forum, I think that sometimes a beginner could mean a knowledgeable, experienced person, or someone without too much experience that has finished formal EE education or such).
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 01:58:10 pm by kalel »
 

Offline Specmaster

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #160 on: July 17, 2017, 02:18:59 pm »
Testing these meters is a bit like crash testing cars, various models will perform better than others. Its really a question of what the person can afford and also of course what they are going to be used for. For the general hobbyist working with electronics I would say that most are perfectly suitable as you do not generally at that level of involvement come across large amounts of energy.

If however you were using these professionally as a matter of course then you should always get the very best you can, weighing up all the factors such as is it going to be bench kept, chucked in a toolbox and used away from the bench, is it going to be used on high energy sources or just checking voltages etc on low power electronics etc, it all will have a bearing.

So basically at the end of day, until there are proper standards testing and better ways of enforcing them, common sense must prevail. If we ever get to the position of having better standards enforcement, then the cost of the better meters will drop dramatically because of the scale of economies will come into play for things like HRC fuses etc. that will benefit everyone.
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Offline madires

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #161 on: July 17, 2017, 02:23:56 pm »
FYI, a sparky uses something like a Duspol for mains, and not a DMM. I think it's amazing how much value you get with the AN8008. The missing delta function and the lack of mA ranges is disappointing, but acceptable for that price. And regarding the poor input protection, I've had much more expensive DMMs with worse input protection.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #162 on: July 17, 2017, 02:43:17 pm »
Videos from Fluke and Joe and others can be helpful to see some of the dangers with some meters (e.g. Fluke exploding the DT830). Although, I have yet to learn how many of it applies to using the meter on proper range (voltage range)

Even the crappy meter in the Fluke video was OK on the proper volts range. It only exploded when he switched to a 'bad' range.

(but I'd be very unhappy holding one in my hand with 466V high energy AC going through it...  :scared: )

« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 03:10:03 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #163 on: July 17, 2017, 03:31:44 pm »
I would love to see someone replicate Fluke's demonstration, 750 VAC high-current capable supply with the meter in 200 ohms range.
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Offline kalel

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #164 on: July 17, 2017, 03:41:55 pm »
I would love to see someone replicate Fluke's demonstration, 750 VAC high-current capable supply with the meter in 200 ohms range.

There's also a few different PCBs with different DT830 models. I'd be interested if those variations make things more or less spectacular. On the other hand, I doubt someone would recreate such a supply just to test some DT's. :)

Edit, maybe you meant AN8008 instead. Not that it changes things in terms of that being a costly and probably not very safe thing to have.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #165 on: July 17, 2017, 04:00:10 pm »
I would love to see someone replicate Fluke's demonstration, 750 VAC high-current capable supply with the meter in 200 ohms range.
There's also a few different PCBs with different DT830 models. I'd be interested if those variations make things more or less spectacular.

Yep.

Even with the exact same model/batch it might not go exactly the same way due to variations in the probes, the soldering, etc.

On the other hand, I doubt someone would recreate such a supply just to test some DT's. :)

I bet Youtube disagrees with you.  :popcorn:

Edit:

« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 04:03:07 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #166 on: July 17, 2017, 04:04:04 pm »
I can only do 300 mA at 750 AC, but my smoke detector is wired in parallel with the whole building and alerts the fire department  :(
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Offline tronde

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #167 on: July 17, 2017, 04:34:39 pm »
People make a lot of noise about false CAT-ratings. Why don't the same people make a lot of noise about what really matters when it comes to electrical safety?

Most countries around the world have a lot of legal regulations about education and long-time experience specifying what kind of work you are allowed to do on almost ANY kind of electrical equipment or wiring.

My humble guess is that only a very few of you are legally allowed to touch anything that will require a multimeter with a CAT-rating.

This is rather beside the point and this argument is without merit, but I am going to respond because it is also completely wrong.
 
That certainly isn't true in the US, and I don't believe it is true most places in the world.  I don't know about Norway -- maybe all the stories about the excessive regulations are true, but your description isn't true in most of the rest of Europe either.  In the US you can't operate as a professional electrician without a license, but you can do almost anything in your own house that doesn't require a building permit.  I know this isn't true everywhere, but I don't believe most places are nearly as strict as you suggest.  In most of the US that means that you can pull new circuits from the main breaker panel.  Even if you can't, you can repair existing wiring, and you can certainly measure it with a voltmeter even if you don't change anything (for instance to diagnose a problem for which you might hire an electrician to fix.

And pretty much all of the regulation that does exist stops at the wall outlet.  There is basically zero restriction on who can work on a mains powered electrical appliance.  Anyone can (legally) replace a worn power cord or troubleshoot a line operated power supply.  Of course in the CAT rating system that is only a CAT-II environment, but it is still a situation where you want a meter that is not adding any danger -- and meters with deceptive labeling are definitely something worth being upset about, even if they are totally functional for low voltage applications.

Likewise, there is no restriction (in the US) on who can work on high voltages that are not part of the power distribution system.  I have in the past worked on high voltage power supplies capable of generating from hundreds to thousands of volts.  They don't have the same power behind them as a main distribution panel, but you can still have quite a bit of energy stored in a capacitor.  There is zero certifications, regulations, or licenses for who can do that in the US.  Other countries do have mandatory engineering licenses to be a professional electronics engineer, but in most places that is only required if you are doing so professionally.  And again, it doesn't exist in the US.  There is absolutely reasons for hobbyists to have safely designed meters, even if they are not doing the specific things that the cat rating is designed for (i.e., working on power distribution networks).

I do sort of agree that many people make too big of a deal about it, as if there is no value to a meter without CAT-4 600V ratings.  There are plenty of uses for multimeters that are never anywhere near a high power / high voltage circuit. The majority of electronics hobbyists would be well served by a safety-low voltage meter, or at most one that honestly meets CATII-300V, and the features this little $25 meter has that make it attractive: high resolution and low ranges are specifically things that don't require high voltage surge capability.

What I know, is that the Norwegian regulations for electrical wiring and safety are harmonized as much as possible with the EU regulations.

Here an "amateur" is allowed to change 2-pole plugs with or without PE on equipment wires meant for no more than 25A, simple repair of small table lamps with flexible wires, connect a lamp hanging in a hook to the wiring if the connection is not considered a permanent part of the installation.

Equipment fed from no more than 50V is allowed given maximum power consumption is no more than 200VA, connection to mains is via wall socket, and the user instructions are strictly followed. I.e. no diy equipment.

All kind of repair is covered by specific regulations regarding education and work experience.

I have seen similar descriptions from other European countries as well, so I guess diy is more limited than many people are aware of. The Norwegian regulation refer to EU-directive 2005/36/EC.

Norwegian regulation (in Norwegian)
https://lovdata.no/dokument/SF/forskrift/2013-06-19-739

 

Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #168 on: July 17, 2017, 07:04:04 pm »
I won't bother replying to your rather emotional response. I will let it stand by itself.

Edit:
If anyone can show me where I call people names, or attack people personally instead of the ideas presented, I will apologize immediately.


Since you can't manage to read your own text, I will paste it here "More idiotic reasoning."

Is that reasoning I am attacking, or the person? You are applying idiotic reasoning. I will not apologize for attacking poor reasoning. I am responding only because I respect the opinions of others and assume that idiotic reasoning can be corrected. I also correct my own idiotic reasoning regularly.

If I assume that idiotic reasoning cannot be corrected because the other person is beyond help, I don't bother trying.
The fact that you mention peoples grammar (while they are not being native) and call peoples friends/technical contacts are imaginary says enough.
Pretty disrespectful.

Just only saying that safety rules are holy as the holiest god is just lack of any reasoning at all.
(and you also clearly don't have a clue about any international regulations and how different they are)
That way we would still living in caves.

Anyway, not worth putting energy into this.
I would say to the rest go on and try to help each other with new ideas.
Like I said before it's not productive and only gives a very negative vibe to all of this.
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Offline free_electron

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #169 on: July 17, 2017, 08:02:42 pm »
Just bought two of em. Don't give a flying F about Cat rating. i don't do anything above 12 volt and 1 ampere anyway. if i do : i have flukes and agilents.
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #170 on: July 17, 2017, 08:07:04 pm »
Well it is another cheapy crappy multimeter which doesn t meet the safety regulations and labelled with the wrong CAT rating . It s built down to the price with shitty input jacks , tiny little fuses and no input protection . It s not worth the money because it will not lasting a long time , it is dangerous to use because the uA range shares the same jack with voltage ranges . Don t buy this shit , it s a waste of money .

You may not want to buy it, but please refrain from telling me what to do.

I own a very nice set of jeweler's screwdrivers. They are very precise and handy to use. And, believe it or not, I do not use them to work on mains outlets, although those screwdrivers do not even bear a warning label cautioning me against that use. -- Horses for courses, and that is how I intend to use the AN8008 and my other meters as well.

By the way, for even more credibility, I recommend to cut back on the use of swear words and to omit the spaces before punctuation marks.
Nicely put, at the end of the day you would have to be a complete and utter dummy not to understand the differences between something costing £20 and something that costs £500, especially when they both purport at least in the main part of say volts, current and resistance, to do the same thing and probably with similar ratings. Clearly the cost differences are not just down to things like the accuracy of them and anyone buying a cheaper meter must comprehend that corners have been cut in order to meet the price point.

It cannot be that difficult either to design and produce something that would for all but the very worst conditions, contain all blast, fireball and debris etc within the case with reasonable overload protection to protect against accidental minor overloads, without pushing the price too high?

I very much doubt if any of the famous Simpson or the Avo meters would withstand the energy levels that those meters were exposed to but are we all going to stop using them now? Of course not.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 08:09:26 pm by Specmaster »
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #171 on: July 17, 2017, 11:04:17 pm »
FYI, a sparky uses something like a Duspol for mains, and not a DMM. I think it's amazing how much value you get with the AN8008. The missing delta function and the lack of mA ranges is disappointing, but acceptable for that price. And regarding the poor input protection, I've had much more expensive DMMs with worse input protection.

Sorry mate, can't buy that  ::)

The sparkies over there are either not making money to also afford a proper CAT class DMM to do their job better informed and verified,

or not aware of its abilities perhaps ?   :-//

A 'Duspol' for all the viewers here btw is a dual probe contact voltage/continuity tester,
and anyone playing with electrics should own a good one..or two if you enjoy life and prefer to avoid hospitals and funeral parlors,
relying on just one Duspol and the condition of the batteries

www.benning.de/duspol-voltage-testers-en.html

www.fluke.com/fluke/uken/electrical-testers/Electrical-Testers/T90-T110-T130-T150-Voltage-and-Continuity-Testers.htm?PID=73757


Let's cross fingers the sparkies over there get an insulation tester, gloves and eye protection before their final Birthday or Christmas    :-+

 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #172 on: July 18, 2017, 12:20:37 am »
Of course when I go to the following and select the Technical document, I get 404Not Found.  Giving me lots of confidence in them from the start.

I did find this: (in French, though)

http://www.handscope.chauvin-arnoux.com/Portals/0/pdf/DT_Handscope_Ed01_FR.pdf

I assumed for CAT III 600 it would be certified but appears it's not.  No manuals on-line that I could find.   They don't appear to have an Amazon store.   Seems more effort than it's worth at this time. 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #173 on: July 18, 2017, 12:26:50 am »
Appreciate your input joe, all read!  ;) Big fan of your robustness testing videos.


Yet more suggestions for meters to test in the future: Chauvin Arnoux MTX 32xx or any of the clamshell style ones (another major European manufacturer akin to Gossen)

I think someone else asked me about one of these some time ago.  Maybe that was you.  I looked for a distributor.  There is very little info on them.  A little advice, invoking the Gossen brand as a comparison is not a good way to sell me on a product.  It will take some time to get the bad taste out of my mouth over that ordeal.   Who knows, maybe they are actually doing something on their end.   

Why do you call it a clamshell?  I would assume it folds up based on this.    Looking over their products, I think if I were to buy one, it would be the OX 5042.  Of course when I go to the following and select the Technical document, I get 404Not Found.  Giving me lots of confidence in them from the start.

http://www.handscope.chauvin-arnoux.com/en/documents/publications.aspx


       

Looks like I'm too late, the clamshell style meters (attached below) are listed as discontinued most places. Always been curious how the input protection looks like in those (and performs). Now replaced with MTX 3290.

Compared with Gossen because I suspect a similar ordeal, but isn't that just fun?  ;D

EDIT: In the US it seems to go by the model AEMC 2125.75,  still sold by AEMC on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/AEMC-2125-75-Multimeters-000-count-Graphical/dp/B00A8P6GOG

One strange looking meter.    One review: "Nice but quirky meter."  I don't see the appeal.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #174 on: July 18, 2017, 01:06:56 am »
...
(OK, that's an AN8002 but it will be the same)
The second problem is the lack of input protection . If a little static discharge goes into the multimeter or you accidently took the wrong function the ic will blow up

(OK, that's an AN8002 but it will be the same)

Nope. These have been tested with joe's sparker and survived perfectly.
...
That one didn't fail until 3000V.
...

I had the gun running by the time I bought that meter which is more harsh of a test than the little grill starter.  But it's pretty close to what the IEC calls for.  It's yet to damage a meter.   I was impressed with how well the 8002 held up.  3KV, it's double what that 87V failed at and with just a PTC and a couple of diodes. These transients are applied to every mode the meters has except the ones that are related to current measurement.   

Of course someone is bound to think that means it would survive being hooked to the 2KV secondary of their MOT because after all, 2KV is a KV less than 3KV.  Plenty of head room.   It won't be.  The MOT will win the battle.   And we can't forget about the special ones that claim I am driving DC into the meters or directly coupling capacitors to them so when they fail it's because I exceeded the 600V the meter was rated to.    The 3KV transient that the 8002 was subjected to is the same transient I have applied to the last 40 or so meters, many of which have survived.   If you want a more robust meter, they are out there. 


While you can obviously post that the 8008 will survive to the same levels as the 8002, what proof do you have of this?   Consider when I ran the Amprobe AM530.  It was not near as robust at that lower priced AM510.   The 87V was no where near as robust as every other Fluke I have looked at.  At least it was reparable.  The vast majority are not.   Anyway, rather than post what you claim as fact based on your feelings, IMO it's better to run the tests and let the data stand on it's own or add a qualifier to your statements.  "My guess is the 8008 would be as robust as the 8002 because ....."  People would then know you really don't know and not take it as fact.  Or, post the data you have to prove it.    Sorry for the rant.       
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #175 on: July 18, 2017, 09:06:30 am »
While you can obviously post that the 8008 will survive to the same levels as the 8002, what proof do you have of this?

I didn't say it would fail at the exact same levels.

The OP claimed that "if ...a little static discharge goes into the multimeter or you accidently took the wrong function the ic will blow up".

I find that very unlikely.

You yourself say: "I had the gun running by the time I bought that meter which is more harsh of a test than the little grill starter.  But it's pretty close to what the IEC calls for.  It's yet to damage a meter."

 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #176 on: July 18, 2017, 11:46:34 am »
While you can obviously post that the 8008 will survive to the same levels as the 8002, what proof do you have of this?

I didn't say it would fail at the exact same levels.

The OP claimed that "if ...a little static discharge goes into the multimeter or you accidently took the wrong function the ic will blow up".

I find that very unlikely.

You yourself say: "I had the gun running by the time I bought that meter which is more harsh of a test than the little grill starter.  But it's pretty close to what the IEC calls for.  It's yet to damage a meter."

"(OK, that's an AN8002 but it will be the same)"  Using the word same leads me to that your claim is they fail identically.   :-//  I really have no idea.

Yes, I ran all these tests including the new gun on the 8002 but that is no indicator that the 8008 would not be damaged. OP could very well be correct.  But again, they too have no data to back it up.  We end up with peoples feelings about it rather than facts. 

I need to buy a UNI-T or get a free HF meter to show that the new gun is even doing anything.   :-DD
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #177 on: July 18, 2017, 12:09:34 pm »
Yes, I ran all these tests including the new gun on the 8002 but that is no indicator that the 8008 would not be damaged. OP could very well be correct.  But again, they too have no data to back it up.  We end up with peoples feelings about it rather than facts. 

"It's yet to damage a meter" isn't data?
 

Offline alm

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #178 on: July 18, 2017, 12:26:54 pm »
No, that is an anecdote. The plural of anecdote is not data ;).
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 01:06:41 pm by alm »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #179 on: July 18, 2017, 12:47:54 pm »
No, that is an anecdote. The plural of anecdotes is not data ;).

By that reasoning you might float off into space at any moment.

 

Offline jonovid

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #180 on: July 18, 2017, 12:50:11 pm »
ANENG AN8008 DMM is ok by me! as it was tested by Dave!  unless you live in a Igloo, then the ANENG AN8002 DMM maybe 4 u.
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Offline JanJansen

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #181 on: July 18, 2017, 12:59:50 pm »
Is the true RMS accurate on this 8008 ? ( for measuring noise ), can anyone verify ?
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Offline ebastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #182 on: July 18, 2017, 01:05:38 pm »
The plural of anecdotes is not data ;).

Anecdata?  ;)
 

Offline alm

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #183 on: July 18, 2017, 01:06:22 pm »
By that reasoning you might float off into space at any moment.
If our knowledge of gravity was limited to 'someone has jumped, and seemed to fall down again' then yes, I would not exclude that as a possibility.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #184 on: July 18, 2017, 01:42:27 pm »
By that reasoning you might float off into space at any moment.
If our knowledge of gravity was limited to 'someone has jumped, and seemed to fall down again' then yes, I would not exclude that as a possibility.

But if ten million people jumped and they all fell down again than you could use that result to make predictions without being branded a dangerous lunatic, right?
 

Offline alm

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #185 on: July 18, 2017, 02:07:04 pm »
But if ten million people jumped and they all fell down again than you could use that result to make predictions without being branded a dangerous lunatic, right?
What if I was a professional athlete (high jumper)? Without knowing the energy they used, I can not be sure what the limits are. Maybe they were 10 million children? And any reasonably fit adult will be able to jump to the moon?

How many meters have you tested or have seen reports of being tested? What were the test conditions like? I would describe the difference between anecdotes and data as a well documented, reproducible procedure and a structured way of collection. If ten people said 'I measured resistance in auto-ranging mode across a full 9V alkaline battery brand X', and subsequently report if it failed or survived, then that would be data. Not necessarily data that would convince me that it would survive the same with higher voltages, but it would be data.

Saying 'I have not seen any reports' could be subject to a selection bias (are the people posting a representative sample of AN8008 customers? are people more likely to report success or failure?) and is very vague (how many people? what did they expose the meter to? what is their mains voltage? was the environment likely to trigger ESD?).
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #186 on: July 18, 2017, 02:11:56 pm »
If ten people said 'I measured resistance in auto-ranging mode across a full 9V alkaline battery brand X', and subsequently report if it failed or survived, then that would be data.

But when joe says, "It's yet to damage a meter", it isn't?

Got it.

OK, what if we took joe's actual results:
Code: [Select]
Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass
Fail
Pass
Pass
Fail
Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass
Fail
Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass
Fail
Pass
Fail
Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass
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Pass
Pass

What would that be called?  :popcorn:

What predictions could you make about an unknown, randomly chosen meter using that information?


How many meters have you tested or have seen reports of being tested? What were the test conditions like?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 02:27:50 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline alm

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #187 on: July 18, 2017, 03:02:17 pm »
OK, what if we took joe's actual results:
[snip]
What would that be called?  :popcorn:

What predictions could you make about an unknown, randomly chosen meter using that information?
Joe's result (including his documentation about his test setup and the actual meter models) would definitely be data. Using this to predict another random meter is tricky. If we assume that the group Joe tested is representative for the group we pick the random meter from, I would say that the meter has an expected pass chance of 38/43th. However, if Joe only ever tested Fluke meters which are the definition of perfection (;)), and now started tested $5 meters, that expectation may be way off.

You might be able to improve the estimate if you split the results by manufacturer or price class. How many of the meters that Joe tested with the current procedure were around the $20 mark? And even then, you can only figure out an expected pass chance. A meter that is 90% likely to pass a test can still fail.

If Joe is not comfortable in extrapolating the data to an untested meter, then I would not extrapolate the data either.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #188 on: July 18, 2017, 03:05:21 pm »
However, if Joe only ever tested Fluke meters which are the definition of perfection (;)), and now started tested $5 meters, that expectation may be way off.

Really? The Fluke 87V failed a test that this meter's $15 sibling passed.

FWIW, here are the PCBs of the two meters in question (AN8002 and AN8008).


Me? I've got $10 that says the AN8008 will pass the sparker test.


PS: Is that a Rubycon capacitor?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 03:08:11 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #189 on: July 18, 2017, 03:33:44 pm »
See what you guys did? All this chat about Aneng made me curious about their gear.  :-DMM

My hobby capex of this month wouldn't allow for an 8008, thus I went for its mini-me version and the cable accessory set. Everything less than US$9.00 with ePacket shipping (with tracking #).
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #190 on: July 18, 2017, 04:00:07 pm »
See what you guys did? All this chat about Aneng made me curious about their gear.  :-DMM

My hobby capex of this month wouldn't allow for an 8008, thus I went for its mini-me version and the cable accessory set. Everything less than US$9.00 with ePacket shipping (with tracking #).

Join the club :-)

Edit: I just noticed they ship them without battery   :(

I need to order a '23A', 12V battery as well.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 04:37:09 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #191 on: July 18, 2017, 04:00:22 pm »
I went for its mini-me version and the cable accessory set.

Hmm, they actually state that the insulation on those test leads is silicone! Curious to see what I will get with my meter when it arrives. But then, they also claim the meter to be CAT II 1000V rated...
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #192 on: July 18, 2017, 05:18:58 pm »
But when joe says, "It's yet to damage a meter", it isn't?

Got it.

OK, what if we took joe's actual results:
Code: [Select]
Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass
Pass
Fail

I believe there is some confusion that I am partly to blame for.  If you go back and read my comments about not damaging a meter yet, these refer to the new homemade ESD gun, not the piezo ignitor.   While both devices put out a fairly fast transient, if you followed along when I tested the 181A and later was working on the new gun, you are aware that the gun can supply much higher current levels than the piezo. 

The data that you present I assume came from my spreadsheet and you just missed on meter in the beginning.   This data is for the piezo ignitor, not the new gun.   To avoid this confusion, I have added a new column to the spreadsheet for the new gun.

I had planned to stop using the piezo ignitor but people have requested that I leave it in.  I think this stems partly from my comments about how no meter should ever be damaged by it and that we have seen so many UNI-Ts fail this test.   It's pretty much what I consider to be the least stressful test I have ran on the meters.

OK, what if we took joe's actual results:
[snip]
What would that be called?  :popcorn:

What predictions could you make about an unknown, randomly chosen meter using that information?
Joe's result (including his documentation about his test setup and the actual meter models) would definitely be data. Using this to predict another random meter is tricky. If we assume that the group Joe tested is representative for the group we pick the random meter from, I would say that the meter has an expected pass chance of 38/43th. However, if Joe only ever tested Fluke meters which are the definition of perfection (;)), and now started tested $5 meters, that expectation may be way off.

You might be able to improve the estimate if you split the results by manufacturer or price class. How many of the meters that Joe tested with the current procedure were around the $20 mark? And even then, you can only figure out an expected pass chance. A meter that is 90% likely to pass a test can still fail.

If Joe is not comfortable in extrapolating the data to an untested meter, then I would not extrapolate the data either.

I agree.  Even if we are all talking about the piezo and not the new gun the sample size is just too small to say much about all meters available.  Even if I had ran more brands and models, just from the little testing I have done, I would be VERY hesitant to extrapolate how new meters would perform.     

Considering that 3 or the 5 meters that failed the piezo test were UNI-Ts, I fully agree that splitting the results would improve the estimate.  Still my confidence factor would be poor.   

However, if Joe only ever tested Fluke meters which are the definition of perfection (;)), and now started tested $5 meters, that expectation may be way off.

Really? The Fluke 87V failed a test that this meter's $15 sibling passed.

FWIW, here are the PCBs of the two meters in question (AN8002 and AN8008).

Me? I've got $10 that says the AN8008 will pass the sparker test.
PS: Is that a Rubycon capacitor?

I agree that the 87V is really a flyer (outside the norm) from what I have seen with Fluke.   Similar to the UNI-T 139c that actually fairs well in my tests compared with the vast majority of UNI-T DVMs I have looked at.    I wonder if the new gun would damage one..  Anyway, this is exactly why even within a brand, I would be hesitant to comment about how an untested meter would perform. 

If you now understand that there are two different ESD tests, one with the piezo grill ignitor and one with the new gun, what are you considering the "sparker test"?   

ESD is a fun one to design for.  There's a fair difference between the two PCBs you show. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline metrologist

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #193 on: July 18, 2017, 05:31:18 pm »
I do not think you can extrapolate Joe's tests to any other model meter, even within the same price class, brand, or even model series (as the Fluke 87V seems to show). A data point of one?

I like Joe's video format and editing. I think 20% more could be shaved off, with double your time  :-DD. I like it, to the point  :-+

"There's a fair difference between the two PCBs you show." Just one small change would seem to have the potential to make or break the result. Maybe even the angle of how a component is placed in the exact same model?
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #194 on: July 18, 2017, 05:37:52 pm »
I went for its mini-me version and the cable accessory set.

Hmm, they actually state that the insulation on those test leads is silicone! Curious to see what I will get with my meter when it arrives. But then, they also claim the meter to be CAT II 1000V rated...
That is why I chose to pay a bit more extra (about $0.50) when compared to a few other sellers that did not mention silicone on the description.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #195 on: July 18, 2017, 05:55:04 pm »
If you now understand that there are two different ESD tests, one with the piezo grill ignitor and one with the new gun, what are you considering the "sparker test"?

Either will do, but I think you should keep doing with the grill igniter simply because it's become a de-facto yardstick. It's difficult to compare new/old results if we switch to something else.

Do those igniters wear out with time? It might be good to measure the sparks and make sure it's holding up, producing sparks just like the first day.

There's a fair difference between the two PCBs you show.

They've moved the buzzer and a few components around, yes.

When you really zapped the AN8002 the major trace damage happened around the area of the buzzer. Maybe they moved the buzzer away to improve that area of the PCB.  :popcorn:



Regardless, the thing that failed first on that meter was the transistor clamp - nothing to do with PCB spacing or layout. If the transistors in the AN8008 are the same then I'd guess it will fail in the same way.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 06:35:57 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #196 on: July 18, 2017, 06:47:08 pm »
See what you guys did? All this chat about Aneng made me curious about their gear.  :-DMM

My hobby capex of this month wouldn't allow for an 8008, thus I went for its mini-me version and the cable accessory set. Everything less than US$9.00 with ePacket shipping (with tracking #).

I see no CAT ratings claimed i the ad for that meter. If it has no claim of safety, it looks like a cool little meter for the beginning hobbyist to have for his/her low energy experiments. That is, if can be reliable for such a cheap price.
 

Offline kalel

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #197 on: July 18, 2017, 06:56:24 pm »
See what you guys did? All this chat about Aneng made me curious about their gear.  :-DMM

My hobby capex of this month wouldn't allow for an 8008, thus I went for its mini-me version and the cable accessory set. Everything less than US$9.00 with ePacket shipping (with tracking #).

I see no CAT ratings claimed i the ad for that meter. If it has no claim of safety, it looks like a cool little meter for the beginning hobbyist to have for his/her low energy experiments. That is, if can be reliable for such a cheap price.

I have no idea if they are using different chips and if one is better, but I would think it would at least be as reliable as a DT830. Looking at the image, maybe the input jacks are even placed better (directly on the PCB) and may last longer if probes are moved around often. That said, I can't say which of the really low end meters (e.g. sub $6) offer best value. This one is the smallest and offers battery measurement, some offer temperature measurement, some offer a backlight but no battery or temperature measurement, and which is safer... who knows. :)

Is there something that should/could be added here?

 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #198 on: July 18, 2017, 07:04:22 pm »
See what you guys did? All this chat about Aneng made me curious about their gear.  :-DMM

My hobby capex of this month wouldn't allow for an 8008, thus I went for its mini-me version and the cable accessory set. Everything less than US$9.00 with ePacket shipping (with tracking #).

I see no CAT ratings claimed i the ad for that meter. If it has no claim of safety, it looks like a cool little meter for the beginning hobbyist to have for his/her low energy experiments. That is, if can be reliable for such a cheap price.

Correct. No false CAT labels, just a tiny meter.

Case looks decent. The PCB looks OK in the pics. I like that the amps ranges are on a separate input jack. Looks to have a decent battery tester. It has a continuity buzzer, unlike most DT830Bs. Buzzer is mounted on a nice little holder. Looks calibratable (although that works both ways - it will likely drift more with that cheapass pot)

And .... it's TINY:popcorn:



I hope there's plenty of solder on the other side of the board to hold the input jacks in place.


« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 07:33:23 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #199 on: July 18, 2017, 07:10:13 pm »
See what you guys did? All this chat about Aneng made me curious about their gear.  :-DMM

My hobby capex of this month wouldn't allow for an 8008, thus I went for its mini-me version and the cable accessory set. Everything less than US$9.00 with ePacket shipping (with tracking #).

I see no CAT ratings claimed i the ad for that meter. If it has no claim of safety, it looks like a cool little meter for the beginning hobbyist to have for his/her low energy experiments. That is, if can be reliable for such a cheap price.
I like this fact as well and bought it for the curiosity. If its interior is as clean as the one shown in the photograph, I would consider it a bonus (it's been a while since the Harbor Freight DT830s were clean inside).


What happened? Hopefully no hurt feelings were involved between the parties...
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #200 on: July 18, 2017, 07:12:50 pm »
See what you guys did? All this chat about Aneng made me curious about their gear.  :-DMM

My hobby capex of this month wouldn't allow for an 8008, thus I went for its mini-me version and the cable accessory set. Everything less than US$9.00 with ePacket shipping (with tracking #).

I see no CAT ratings claimed i the ad for that meter. If it has no claim of safety, it looks like a cool little meter for the beginning hobbyist to have for his/her low energy experiments. That is, if can be reliable for such a cheap price.

I have no idea if they are using different chips and if one is better, but I would think it would at least be as reliable as a DT830. Looking at the image, maybe the input jacks are even placed better (directly on the PCB) and may last longer if probes are moved around often. That said, I can't say which of the really low end meters (e.g. sub $6) offer best value. This one is the smallest and offers battery measurement, some offer temperature measurement, some offer a backlight but no battery or temperature measurement, and which is safer... who knows. :)

Is there something that should/could be added here?
Nice! It can be modded from the get-go! :)
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #201 on: July 18, 2017, 07:14:12 pm »
Is there something that should/could be added here?

And I wonder what the mystery 8-pin chip is.  :popcorn:
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #202 on: July 18, 2017, 07:27:19 pm »
You'd think they'd choose one with a little bit better soldering for the web store... 



(I'm guessing that trimmer is hand-soldered)
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 07:30:15 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline tronde

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #203 on: July 18, 2017, 09:09:26 pm »
I see no CAT ratings claimed i the ad for that meter. If it has no claim of safety, it looks like a cool little meter for the beginning hobbyist to have for his/her low energy experiments. That is, if can be reliable for such a cheap price.

Beginner:
Look at this cool little multimeter I just got from China. It  has no CAT-ratings, so I will only use it for my arduino.

OR

Beginner:
Look at this cool little multimeter I just got from China. Let's see how many volts it is in the wall socket.


 :popcorn:
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #204 on: July 18, 2017, 09:22:28 pm »
Beginner:
Look at this cool little multimeter I just got from China. Let's see how many volts it is in the wall socket.

It's a rite of passage - measure mains AC with a dangerous multimeter!

(hey, at least all the dangerous ranges are on a separate input jack...)

I'm also a fan of the way the screw-together probes in the kit have a little tiny bit of exposed metal at the other end.


« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 09:32:44 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #205 on: July 18, 2017, 09:26:37 pm »
Beginner:
Look at this cool little multimeter I just got from China. It  has no CAT-ratings, so I will only use it for my arduino.

I am thoroughly impressed with the Norwegian "beginners", who all know what a CAT rating is.
(And who actively look for a CAT rating, notice its absence, and draw the right conclusions.)  ::)

Come on, a beginner is just as likely to poke at a wall outlet with that unrated meter as with an AN8008. And just as unlikely to electrocute himself doing it.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #206 on: July 18, 2017, 09:35:09 pm »
Come on, a beginner is just as likely to poke at a wall outlet with that unrated meter as with an AN8008. And just as unlikely to electrocute himself doing it.

In the real world both of those are far less likely than using a DT830B.
 

Offline tronde

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #207 on: July 18, 2017, 09:37:29 pm »
Beginner:
Look at this cool little multimeter I just got from China. It  has no CAT-ratings, so I will only use it for my arduino.

I am thoroughly impressed with the Norwegian "beginners", who all know what a CAT rating is.
(And who actively look for a CAT rating, notice its absence, and draw the right conclusions.)  ::)

Come on, a beginner is just as likely to poke at a wall outlet with that unrated meter as with an AN8008. And just as unlikely to electrocute himself doing it.

I am more impressed by Lightages belief in "the power of CAT-markings".  As you can see, he finds this meter to be suitable for beginners because it has no fake CAT-rating.

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #208 on: July 18, 2017, 10:03:48 pm »
Harbor Freight also gives away these beauties. The convenient on/off switch means the selector can literally be in any position when junior connects the probes.



 

Offline tronde

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #209 on: July 18, 2017, 10:22:21 pm »
Harbor Freight also gives away these beauties. The convenient on/off switch means the selector can literally be in any position when junior connects the probes.



That's no problem. It has no CAT-rating, so junior will not use it for anything dangerous. Or have I got it wrong ?
 :popcorn:
 
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Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #210 on: July 18, 2017, 11:51:27 pm »

I am more impressed by Lightages belief in "the power of CAT-markings".  As you can see, he finds this meter to be suitable for beginners because it has no fake CAT-rating.

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

More putting words in other's mouths, troll.........

You know trolling here, lying about what people say or what their intent is, are reasons for discipline here. Keep it up.....
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #211 on: July 19, 2017, 03:10:51 am »
is everyone that calls you out on anything a 'troll' ? 

Tronde delivers the goods backing up what he types,

why is he a troll and you're not ? 

It borders on forum slander  :--

 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #212 on: July 19, 2017, 03:15:18 am »
If you now understand that there are two different ESD tests, one with the piezo grill ignitor and one with the new gun, what are you considering the "sparker test"?

Either will do, but I think you should keep doing with the grill igniter simply because it's become a de-facto yardstick. It's difficult to compare new/old results if we switch to something else.

Do those igniters wear out with time? It might be good to measure the sparks and make sure it's holding up, producing sparks just like the first day.

There's a fair difference between the two PCBs you show.

They've moved the buzzer and a few components around, yes.

When you really zapped the AN8002 the major trace damage happened around the area of the buzzer. Maybe they moved the buzzer away to improve that area of the PCB.  :popcorn:



Regardless, the thing that failed first on that meter was the transistor clamp - nothing to do with PCB spacing or layout. If the transistors in the AN8008 are the same then I'd guess it will fail in the same way.

Of my sample of two grill starters, there is a WIDE variance!! And yes I believe the output changes with time.   I have a starter that looks very similar to this one that is new and it puts out a much larger spark.   The one I use for testing actually came from a old grill I scrapped.  The spring tension is a fair amount less than the new one. 

It only really gets used for the meters and I have checked the output a couple of times during the course of all this testing and it appeared to be the same. 

I have changed the test methods before as I  find better ways to run them.   

When I "zapped" the AN8002, it was the higher energy generator that caused the damage you mention.  I don't record any of this testing in the spreadsheet.  It's more an FYI than anything.   

Because the PTC and clamp are located pretty much in the worst possible location setting up a loop that runs more than half the length of the board, it's really hard to say how changing the layout will effect it.  The part placement and layout are VERY important when you start pumping several amps through the board in sub ns.       

You may feel the clamp would take the initial hit and I would tend to agree with that for the slower rise time transients.  The grill starter transient is pretty much over in 10ns.  The rise time on the other generator is around 1us.   It matters! 

I would really have no way of knowing what failed first on the 8002.  You can guess it's the clamps but I can't say that for sure.  Again, many thing will play into this including the layout. 

I would say if I had been able to replace the clamps or even just remove them and get the meter functional again, you would be correct.  That was not the case.   

Where are you sending the $10 if the 8008 fails the gun?  I think if it fails you should have to send Dave $20 to cover his cost of the 8008.   :-DD   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #213 on: July 19, 2017, 03:30:21 am »

I am more impressed by Lightages belief in "the power of CAT-markings".  As you can see, he finds this meter to be suitable for beginners because it has no fake CAT-rating.

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

More putting words in other's mouths, troll.........

You know trolling here, lying about what people say or what their intent is, are reasons for discipline here. Keep it up.....

Quote
If it has no claim of safety, it looks like a cool little meter for the beginning hobbyist to have for his/her low energy experiments.

It does seem to me that is what you were suggesting from your comment above.   



Beginner:
Look at this cool little multimeter I just got from China. It  has no CAT-ratings, so I will only use it for my arduino.

I am thoroughly impressed with the Norwegian "beginners", who all know what a CAT rating is.
(And who actively look for a CAT rating, notice its absence, and draw the right conclusions.)  ::)

Come on, a beginner is just as likely to poke at a wall outlet with that unrated meter as with an AN8008. And just as unlikely to electrocute himself doing it.


When UI was a beginner, we did not have these fancy meters to poke at the wall socket.  At best we had scissors and not the ones with plastic handles.    :-DD   While I did not fall pry to that, a classmate did.  We were maybe 5 then. :-DD :-DD  I plugged a chopped off line cord that I had stripped the ends in and then touched the wires, catching my bed on fire. :-DD  The wonders of electricity to a small child..  :-DD     
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #214 on: July 19, 2017, 03:35:05 am »
Harbor Freight also gives away these beauties. The convenient on/off switch means the selector can literally be in any position when junior connects the probes.



I guess anyone, not just Jr, could have the selector literally in any position when we connect the probes to the meter or to the target. 

If I pick one of these up and it fails on the new gun, would you send Dave another $20?    I need some incentive...  :-DD
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #215 on: July 19, 2017, 04:13:09 am »
is everyone that calls you out on anything a 'troll' ?
I welcome discussion, but with points being made. Not with straw men arguments. I believe that meters should be not be rated falsely. That is all I have asserted in this thread. Trying to make it look like I have been trying assert anything differently is a straw man argument, or trolling, or completely idiocy.

Tronde delivers the goods backing up what he types,

why is he a troll and you're not ?

When have I misrepresented anything anyone has said? He has.

It borders on forum slander  :--

 :-DD "forum slander"!!!! :-DD
Really, I state my opinion and point of view and have it twisted to something I didn't say and defend myself and I am the one "slandering"?  :palm:

Edited for typo
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 02:55:03 pm by Lightages »
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #216 on: July 19, 2017, 04:19:12 am »
I will clarify my statement "If it has no claim of safety, it looks like a cool little meter for the beginning hobbyist to have for his/her low energy experiments. That is, if can be reliable for such a cheap price."

In the context of the concern I have for mislabeled CAT ratings, the fact that is not going to cause a newbie to use it n the wrong circumstance because it claims to be safer than it is, it is more suitable for a newbie who at least knows that CAT ratings indicate it is safe.
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #217 on: July 19, 2017, 04:20:34 am »

What happened? Hopefully no hurt feelings were involved between the parties...

I explained it in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/announcement-i-am-not-a-brymen-distriubotr-anymore/msg1195867/#msg1195867
 
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Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #218 on: July 19, 2017, 05:13:26 am »
I agree Wilfred. When a person adds  :popcorn: to their post, it is a clear declaration of the intent to provoke, or troll.
 

Offline Gary.M

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #219 on: July 19, 2017, 06:52:14 am »
I agree Wilfred. When a person adds  :popcorn: to their post, it is a clear declaration of the intent to provoke, or troll.
Fungus is the king of popcorn here. With the frequency that he reaches for it he must have an expanding waistline.

Sent from my x600 using Tapatalk

 
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #220 on: July 19, 2017, 07:17:20 am »
...I believe that meters should be be rated falsely. That is all I have asserted in this thread.

Why should they be rated falsely?

Isn't that fraudulent and DANGEROUS for those deceived? 

BTW: since when did munching on maccas / popcorn / chips  and sipping cola /KoolAid    (example >  :popcorn: )    make one a troll candidate ?   

going by your incinuation alone, the forum must be crawling with them...       :scared:

« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 08:24:28 am by Electro Detective »
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #221 on: July 19, 2017, 07:49:29 am »
since when did munching on maccas and sipping cola    (example >  :popcorn: )    make one a troll candidate ?   

I agree that the "popcorn" icon has that trolling connotation. To me, it says: "I'll sit back now and enjoy the show/fight (which I hope to incite with this post)".

I have been wondering before whether this forum would be an even better place if some of the emoticons were no longer offered. The popcorn-eater is one of them. I also find that the :-DD and :palm: can be quite offending, when they are used to comment on another member's posts. You would probably use neither gesture in a face-to-face dialog, at least not in a civilized one. But of course those emoticons have non-offending uses, when posted in reaction to a genuine joke, your own error, or some ridiculous/stupid proceedings outside the forum.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #222 on: July 19, 2017, 08:25:11 am »
Harbor Freight also gives away these beauties. The convenient on/off switch means the selector can literally be in any position when junior connects the probes.



I guess anyone, not just Jr, could have the selector literally in any position when we connect the probes to the meter or to the target. 

As far as multimeter safety sins go, the "convenient on/off switch" is one of the worst. Fake CAT ratings pale by comparison.

Just think of the children!

If I pick one of these up and it fails on the new gun, would you send Dave another $20?    I need some incentive...  :-DD

Nope.
 

Online Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #223 on: July 19, 2017, 08:29:45 am »
I know this is another $25 meter ($24.99 actually) but this coming Saturday, ALDI is offering this one.



Wonder what it would be like inside....?
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #224 on: July 19, 2017, 08:40:25 am »
Be sure to keep the purchase receipt in a safe place, you will need it for the return process.   :o ::) :-BROKE
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #225 on: July 19, 2017, 08:41:35 am »
When I "zapped" the AN8002, it was the higher energy generator that caused the damage you mention.  I don't record any of this testing in the spreadsheet.  It's more an FYI than anything.   

Yes. The meter had already failed (one of the clamp transistors exploded), you were unsatisfied with that result and felt the need for some fireworks so you turned up the power and switched it to an amps range. We all have days like that, it's nothing to be ashamed of.

Where are you sending the $10 if the 8008 fails the gun?
To any person who sends me $10 if it doesn't.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #226 on: July 19, 2017, 08:43:20 am »
I know this is another $25 meter ($24.99 actually) but this coming Saturday, ALDI is offering this one.



Wonder what it would be like inside....?

I doubt anyone will see it on Saturday,

Fluke are sending their suits to Aldi Inc. tomorrow morning  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(



You might see a truckload of crushed ones at a local tip next Saturday  ;D

 
 
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #227 on: July 19, 2017, 08:43:49 am »
I agree Wilfred. When a person adds  :popcorn: to their post, it is a clear declaration of the intent to provoke, or troll.
Fungus is the king of popcorn here. With the frequency that he reaches for it he must have an expanding waistline.

But in my own mind I lean more towards devil's advocate than troll.  :popcorn:
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #228 on: July 19, 2017, 10:38:04 am »
I doubt anyone will see it on Saturday,

Fluke are sending their suits to Aldi Inc. tomorrow morning  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

You might see a truckload of crushed ones at a local tip next Saturday  ;D

I'm sure they're plenty angry, but ... this is Europe.

 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #229 on: July 19, 2017, 10:41:24 am »
I have been wondering before whether this forum would be an even better place if some of the emoticons were no longer offered. The popcorn-eater is one of them. I also find that the :-DD and :palm: can be quite offending, when they are used to comment on another member's posts.

To be 100% fair: They mainly get used because there's no middle-finger icon.
 
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Offline JanJansen

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #230 on: July 19, 2017, 11:00:56 am »
Aldi = € 14,99
I hope the 8008 is better, else i payed 1 euro to much.
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Offline ebastler

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Re: EEVblog #1007 - Is a $25 Multimeter Any Good
« Reply #231 on: July 19, 2017, 11:18:09 am »

To be 100% fair: They mainly get used because there's no middle-finger icon.

 :-DD

I'll take that as a "good" use of the laughing-myself-silly icon, rather than a "middle finger" use...  ;)
 

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